your thouhts on a HD shotgun with pistol grip (no stock) [Archive] - Glock Talk

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dc2integra
09-16-2010, 20:48
Well i wanna make my shotgun strictly an HD gun. i was thinking of putting a pistol grip on it because I figured I could manuver alot better than the traditonal stock.Knoxx makes a recoil reducing pistol grip what do you guys thinK?

Ferdinandd
09-16-2010, 20:55
I've tried that on my M500 extensively and don't like it. Your best shot is a well-aimed shot, and you can't aim well with the PG-only shooting from the hip. I really like the Shoulder stock with PG attached - very comfortable, and great control and accuracy.

JK-linux
09-16-2010, 20:56
Opinions vary. Personally, I prefer a both a pistol grip AND stock of some type whenever possible. I currently have an old surplus Remington Police top folder stock on my 870 which makes it more compact to stash. Were there to be a bump in the night, my first action would be to extend the stock so I could fire it accurately. Honestly though, I may just ditch the folder and go back to the OEM solid stock. I've pinched blood blisters so many times folding and unfolding it, it's not worth it to me.

dc2integra
09-16-2010, 21:11
I have a traditional stock on it right know but i would think that for hd purposes id be better off with a pistol grip simply because it shortens the gun length and I can manuver alot better .Also my house is only 1500 sq feet .

boss66tcode
09-16-2010, 21:15
Its fine as long as you train and pattern the buck shot with a pistol grip. It will handle different, and you should know how it will feel, or should you ever have to use it, you would be at a disadvantage.

MrMurphy
09-16-2010, 21:21
If you actually plan on using it to hit something, keep the stock.

Noblinger
09-16-2010, 21:28
Use what is comfortable for you. You will kill the bad guy with a pistol grip or a stock. Recoil will not really matter at that time.

mixflip
09-16-2010, 22:30
Well most experienced shotgun shooters will tell you that those are a great way for shotgun noobs to knock out their teeth when they get the instict to raise it up and aim and not hold it strong enough to stop it from doing so?

They arent 100% useless though. The JIC has its merits. Also professional door breechers benefit from them when coupled with the proper muzzle and ammo.

I avoid them personally. If you are clearing your house of armed bad guys with a pistol grip shotgun...some training is needed. Not a pistol grip.

ancient_serpent
09-16-2010, 22:46
Adjustable stock is far better. I was a breacher, the shotgun I used had a fold over stock. The only time it was folded up was in the armsroom.
My personal HD shotgun has an adjustable stock and sidesaddle on it.

MD357
09-16-2010, 22:46
I've tried that on my M500 extensively and don't like it. Your best shot is a well-aimed shot, and you can't aim well with the PG-only shooting from the hip. I really like the Shoulder stock with PG attached - very comfortable, and great control and accuracy.

This is my experiences aswell. Knoxx stock being my favorite. :cool:

MacG22
09-17-2010, 00:37
Use what is comfortable for you. You will kill the bad guy with a pistol grip or a stock. Recoil will not really matter at that time.

This is not true. If you're point blank, then it is probably true.

However, I've tried to shoot with accuracy with 3'' shells and there is a WORLD of difference. In the real world, in a real house at night or in the afternoon, and especially if others are involved or within penetration distance...that bit of accuracy is everything.

And it's not just recoil for accuracy. It is painful recoil that will absolutely affect followup shots.

Keep the stock. Make it adjustable if you want to leave some room for maneuverability.

aippi
09-17-2010, 01:28
I have fired the 870 with Knoxx breecher grip. Great stock. It deals with most of the recoil and muzzel flip. You can even shoot the shotgun one handed like a pistol with that stock. I loved it and hated to see the client leave here with it as he came to the shop to watch me build it. I even let him test fire it first 'cause if I had shot it first he would not have gotten to till he got home with it.

The issue of accuracy comes down to two things, the range you are shooting at and your proficiency. As an HD this is a close quarters weapon, feet not yards and making a committment to training with that weapon will make just as proficient with it at those distances as with any weapon.

I am about to apply for an AOW. Of course it will be an 870. It will have a 14" barrel, Wilson one shot tube extension, Surefire 318LM and a Knoxx Breecher grip. And no it is not for breeching. It will be my primary HD.

mixflip
09-17-2010, 02:38
To the OP, aippi proves there are always exceptions to the rule. I am actually surprised to hear him advocate pistol grips for HD but in his case he is not the average Joe shotgun owner. I dont know him personally but from what I gather he is highly experienced and highly trained so its basically a different situation for him as far as pistol grips go.

I still say, if you are a newbie who isnt investing in shotgun training...stick to some type of shoulder fired setup until you get closer to aippi's level.

dc2integra
09-17-2010, 17:42
thanks aippi you sure sound like you know your stuff.My setup i plan on running on my mossberg 500 6 shot will be a trl 1,knoxx breacher grip no side saddles or heat shields as i dont want to add anymore weight. And yes ive seen some guys online firing shotguns with the knoxx breacher grip like its a pistol

aippi
09-17-2010, 18:11
The main thing is that this is dedicated HD and you get trigger time, trigger time and more trigger time. All the above guys have a valid point about stocks and all my stocks are either, SF IV-S, Knoxx or Mesa. The AOW will not replace the one by my bed till I have hundreds of rounds through it and then only when I can look at something and it is hit. It will also serve for those very times I get a protection detail and think it is needed.

This stock is not for everyone so make sure you become proficient with it.

Jeepnik
09-17-2010, 18:12
Just a suggestion, but you might look into a "youth" buttstock. They shave an inch or so off the length, and that makes them surprisingly more manuverable. Push comes to shove, that shorter buttstock won't even be noticable compare to a "normal" length one. Yea, you'll be a bit more cramped up, but not enough to matter for the few shots you might need.

Oh by the way, don't ever try to hold a pistol gripped 12 gauge up so you can see the sight bead with anything but skeet loads. Unless you are a Hollywood movie star, you're going to eat steel.

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/06/07/how-to-knock-out-your-front-teeth-with-a-pistol-grip-shotgun/

dc2integra
09-17-2010, 19:35
I plan on shooting a couple thousand rounds before trusting it as my primary HD gun.Hey Aippi I wanna practice shooting it but not hip firing i wanna do some shooting were I actually aim and use the sights whats the proper way of doing that ive tried to look it up on youtube but all I see is idiots shooting them one handed and people shooting them from the hip.Thanks

josp
09-17-2010, 19:51
For HD use I have a Serbu Super Shorty, 4 shot side saddle, Knoxx breachers grip. Exactly 18 ft from my strong point to the stairs, main house area where the assault would have to come from.
Patterns like a softball at that distance yet I can still hit a silhouette at 40 yards with slugs. The fore grip on the Serbu is the key to it I believe.
Whatever you decide, practice, practice, practice.

Johan Beer
09-17-2010, 20:10
Everything I've ever read says to steer clear of a pistol grip shotgun. With the stock you have better control, better aim, and better chances of winning.

The pistol grip might look cool, but it puts you at a disadvantage.

dc2integra
09-17-2010, 20:29
^^If it wasnt effective proffesional breachers in swat teams wouldnt have their shotguns set up with pistol grips

MrMurphy
09-17-2010, 22:49
Breachers are firing from a distance of about two inches. Hard to miss.


And they're aiming at a nonmoving door. Any entry team member who for some odd reason was using a shotgun not a rifle/SMG would be using a stock of some sort.

aippi
09-18-2010, 08:56
What Murph said. These weapons have limited application and shouldered fired weapons are the choice of any team member. In 1991 in SWAT training We breeched doors with the 12ga shotgun at a Residential area west of Ft. Lauderdale Airport that the Feds Bought all the homes in and then gave to Departments to play in. We blow doors, rake windows and just tear the hell out of the place and the Jr. College Building arts students come and learn how fix ****, so we can tear it up again. After all the team members finished, the Senior Instructor stated " And that is last time you will most likely ever do that **** as we have Rams and Hydrolics for that **** now" So even breeching with a shotgun is rare in the really world.

I can only remmember seeing one shotgun being carried by any team member with a POG only and I don't remmember which team that was. And that is from going out to play with many of the teams in South Florida.

My setting up of an AOW with the POG Knoxx stock is for a specific application of close quarters in my home. This build has a place for that use and my other intended use. In the photos on my web site there is an 870 with a SF POG only. That weapn was built for a Cross country truck driver for when he is in his sleeper. He wanted more then a pistol could offer. I have built two more like it, one for another trucker and one for a local country store owner. These men had mission specific uses for this type of build, just as I do with my planned AOW.

As for the stand off breaching attachment we have designed the AI&P Tactical Stand off breeching attachment that will work with any model shotgun. It can be seen on my web site.

Aceman
09-18-2010, 09:04
In most houses, my #1 breaching tool would be my right foot. as has been said - SWAT teams don't go around doing this that much. For HD my SG approach is Identify target - go/no go.

This really has the gun on my shoulder 100%. I maneuver with my feet.

I am 6'2" 230+ and pretty strong. I have and can shoot a pistol grip only. However - I choose not to. It just doesn't give me the accuracy I want, and there is too much room for error in terms of accuracy or personal injury IMO.

I do like a pistol grip with stock for a lot of reasons, and I like the 6 position stock. Recoil reduction is not important for my shoulder, but I do like low recoil for speed of back-on-target.

Aippi brings a good point (doesn't he always?). You can get good at anything. But it will take a lot more practice to get good with that pistol grip only.

Shot for shot, the stock on shoulder shooter is going to probably hit faster and more accurately almost all the time.

aippi
09-18-2010, 10:22
Ace, change that to the shoulder shooter is going to hit faster and more accurately ALL the time as your assestment is dead on (pun intended ). So often today people want it all and they fail to get the age old rule of " you get this but loose that".

All my weapons have a pistol grip type shoulder stock as the grip gives me control and is critical in weapon retention. If anyone believes they can't have their weapon taken and used on them they are a fool and that pistol grip like on the SF IV-S gives me an edge hanging on to my weapon.

David Armstrong
09-18-2010, 12:44
^^If it wasnt effective proffesional breachers in swat teams wouldnt have their shotguns set up with pistol grips
Professional breachers use their shotguns as breaching tools, not as first-choice fighting weapons. So think about that for a minute. The pistol grip only shotgun is being used in pace of a sledgehammer. It is not being used as a fighting tool. All the fighting shotguns will have a stock on them. There is a good reason for that.

As aippi siad, there is a rather narrow window where the PG shotgun makes a bit of sense. But given that you lose so much for everything outside of that narrow window it doesn't seem like a particularly good decision.

boozer
09-18-2010, 14:50
The shooter at .15 in this vid is firing a PG correctly, not from the hip, pretty good form, needs to hold it up a little higher for better aim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpFDHO-tqUY

(Warning, scantily clad females, don't click if going to the beach offends you.)

Looks like a birds head type stock, which I would recomend over a true PG, saves the recoil from going directly into the web of your hand.

Robalero
09-18-2010, 14:57
When I purchased my Remington 1100 Tactical it came with a pistrol grip. I tried but it just didn't feel comfortable. A friend of mine went ahead and changed the stock from my 870 onto the 1100 and then he put the pistrol grip on the 870. Wow, what a change. Went ahead and gave the 870 to my son, and the 1100 with the traditional stock is my primary HD Shotgun. Once again, it's what feels comfortable, and for me, its the traditional stock without the pistrol grip. Oh, son loves the 870 with the pistrol grip, thinks it looks cool, he feels comfortable shooting it, and it works for him.

dc2integra
09-18-2010, 15:25
You guys make good points ill probably end up purchasing the knoxx recoil reducing stock instead

CTfam
09-18-2010, 17:42
I've tried it all... PG only, Knoxx Spec Ops, Factory stock, etc. Now I'm back to the traditional stock chopped down to a 13" LOP.

For close quarters you can still shoot from the hip. Being able to shoulder the beast makes a world of difference IME.

Jon Christopher
09-19-2010, 17:21
I enjoy using the Speedfeed pistol grip. I only use this at the range, shooting from the hip with the lowest recoil shells I can find. I think they call it the "birds head" or "bird eye" grip, can't remember which one. I find it very enjoyable, and it just changes things up when your shoulder gets tired.

For those that have never shot one, its not bad at all (using low recoil shells or cheap birdshot). I have tried aiming with it held up at eye level. At no time did I ever come close to knocking out my teeth.

If you do something long enough, you can become good at it. With practice you can hit your target while shooting from the hip, took me a while to get the hang of it.

Shotguns can be fun. The pistol grip only adds to that fun when I am at the range.

I bet those recoil-reducing pistol grips are a lot of fun also...looks like a great product.



Jon

unit1069
09-20-2010, 14:21
You guys make good points ill probably end up purchasing the knoxx recoil reducing stock instead

Good idea.

I have a Mossberg Maverick 88 pistol grip with 18.5" barrel. The recoil was punishing and accuracy was nowhere by having to hold it so it wouldn't fly out of my hands.

I had the shotgun for more than 15 years and it sat locked on the shelf because there were just too many other HD options that are far superior to pistol grip shotgun defense.

I added the same Knoxx stock you're thinking of and it's a completely different world. Now the Mossberg is at the top of the list of firearms I'd first go for in an emergency.

Jon Christopher
09-20-2010, 17:50
I don't know what the Mossy pistol grip looks like. I will say this: the Speedfeed is quite different from the rest. In fact if you want to semi-duplicate it, you can hold a standard stocked shotgun to the rear of the trigger guard and try shooting from the hip. It would give you an idea of what it is like. If you look at the picture of the Speedfeed, it is much like a standard stock that has been sawed-off, so to speak. It puts no pressure into the web of your hand between your trigger finger and thumb like some of the others do. It is very comfortable to shoot. Like I said, after the shoulder gets tired it is great!

I'm not knocking the Knoxx product, I don't own it and have never tried it. It is on the list of things to buy someday!!

Jon

aippi
09-20-2010, 23:07
Jon - You would love the Knoxx Breecher Grip. It is the only way I would consider a PG only on my future AOW. It not only eats the recoild but reduces muzzle flip. Even if it was going on a recreational weapon it is worth it as it is a blast to shoot (Pun Intended )

I corrected that web error you found on my site. So when you are ready for any SpecOps stock just yell and you can get it for Dealer Price as a big Thank you from me.

Jon Christopher
09-21-2010, 10:38
Thats very nice of you, but was the error about the 870 police barrels or something else? I'll pass on the stock for now...I do appreciate the offer. Don't think you owe me...I have learned quite a bit from you! I may try out your refinishing services someday down the road.

Jon

Edit: I went to your website and checked it out on the acc. page.

vafish
09-21-2010, 10:42
Never tried the Knoxx grip.

Did a bit of shooting with a friends 870 and the birds head grip a few years back. Even with 3" mags it was controllable.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n75/vafish/Guns/vafishtrapshooting.jpg

It was fun to play around with and I even hit a few clay pigeons from the trap house, but my home defense shotguns have a full stock on them.

mixflip
09-21-2010, 11:07
Nice tactical aloha shirt.

vafish
09-21-2010, 14:19
Nice tactical aloha shirt.

It covered up the Glock just fine. :supergrin:

mixflip
09-22-2010, 01:19
I know. I wear them all the time too. I lived in Hawaii for 10 years and my wife is from there. Aloha shirts can conceal an entire duty belt with a baton, handcuffs, OC, mags, taser and duty gun!!!!