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JDinNC
09-21-2010, 21:57
I want to carry the G27 and I like Gold Dots. In .40, they come in 155, 165, 180, and 180SB. Which one is the correct one for a G27? Thanks.

NMPOPS
09-21-2010, 22:01
The one that is the most accurate for you. They are all good loads

Glockin26
09-21-2010, 22:10
Something recommended for a short barrel such as

http://www.tds-us.com/catalog.php/tds/pd2088545

fredj338
09-21-2010, 22:44
The 180gr will likely have less "felt" recoil. They make a short bbl load, but it really comes down to what feels right for you. The G27 torques quite a bit & the lighter 155gr loads seem to be worse. The 165gr load is a good compromise for me.

SIGShooter
09-22-2010, 08:10
After testing four different weights...135 155 165 180...i chose the 165 gr. ammo. It worked the best for my gun and me and it had the least felt recoil.

BurkGlocker
09-22-2010, 09:57
I carry 165 grain Ranger T-Series, and it shoots very well for me...

Burk

cadillacguns
09-22-2010, 10:07
I selected the 180 gr, works best for me.

JDinNC
09-22-2010, 18:41
Sorry I worded it wrong. I know all 4 loads function in the G27. I was talking about ballistics. Which gold dot load has the optimal penetration and expansion out of a G27? like according to the FBI studies you read about sometimes. I've read that if you drive a certain hollow point too fast, it would expand too quickly and fail to penetrate. Or on the opposite side, if you drive a certain hollow point too slow, it would overpenetrate because it failed to expand. So which is the best choice out of this 3.5" barrel?

packinaglock
09-22-2010, 19:32
I carry 165 grain Ranger T-Series, and it shoots very well for me...

Burk

Same here.

cmcinc
09-22-2010, 20:04
I prefer the 180's, but it is up to you to decide that.

1canvas
09-22-2010, 20:14
started with the 180 then went to the 165. i think its a good middle of the road round that would give the best of velocity, expansion, and penetration. i haven't seen any data on it though.

Eagle22
09-23-2010, 04:49
Have a G22 and G27. Carry the G27

Use Federal FMJ 165gr and 180gr and Speer TMJ 180gr

for carry ammo, Federal HST 180gr and Speer Gold dot 180gr

Tried the HST 155gr, but did not really like it.

HST so I carry the 180gr Speer Gold DOT or Federal 180 gr HST

Dogue
09-23-2010, 07:26
Have a G22 and G27. Carry the G27

Use Federal FMJ 165gr and 180gr and Speer TMJ 180gr

for carry ammo, Federal HST 180gr and Speer Gold dot 180gr

Tried the HST 155gr, but did not really like it.

HST so I carry the 180gr Speer Gold DOT or Federal 180 gr HST
:headscratch:

I'm not overly concerned with the velocity difference with the shorter barrel since most self defense situations are close range. I use the 180 HSTs but would be fine with the GD's or HST's in 165-180g. Both Speer and Federal use a 4" test barrel and rate the 180's as just over 1k fps, so I'm sure they'll do just fine out of the 3.5" barrel.

GunFighter45ACP
09-23-2010, 09:04
The one that is the most accurate for you. They are all good loads

+1. I prefer 180s in mine. I'd like to try the GDSB loads, too. If I could ever find them...

JDinNC
09-23-2010, 17:35
OK I went with the 180SB. Thanks guys!

NonPCnraRN
09-23-2010, 20:16
I like 200 gr WFNGC Double Tap ammo. Bullets look like a little oil drum and regardless of velocity they will make a big hole and penetrate better than a HP. Before anyone brings up the overpenetration argument, a study showed that only 12 percent of bullets in LEO shootouts with BGs actually hit the target. The issue is not people being hit by bullets that pass through BGs, its people being hit by bullets that missed the BG all together. The percentage of people hit by bullets passing through a BG was very small. I don't have to worry about velocity, denim plugged HPs, etc.

Trebla
09-24-2010, 11:06
I prefer the heavier bullets in .40 so I chose HST 180gr or the Speer 180gr Short Barrel.

Trebla
09-24-2010, 11:08
I like 200 gr WFNGC Double Tap ammo. Bullets look like a little oil drum and regardless of velocity they will make a big hole and penetrate better than a HP. Before anyone brings up the overpenetration argument, a study showed that only 12 percent of bullets in LEO shootouts with BGs actually hit the target. The issue is not people being hit by bullets that pass through BGs, its people being hit by bullets that missed the BG all together. The percentage of people hit by bullets passing through a BG was very small. I don't have to worry about velocity, denim plugged HPs, etc.

Do you change out the barrel when you shoot the DT 200gr WFNGC ammo?

NonPCnraRN
09-25-2010, 01:21
Do you change out the barrel when you shoot the DT 200gr WFNGC ammo?

No. Per Buffalo Bore if the cast bullet is hardcast (BHN of 21) then they say you can shoot them in Glock barrels. Double Tap is a little more cautious and adds a gas check to their 200 and 230 gr 10mm/40 cal bullets in addition to a BHN of 21. Hickok45 has a youtube video where the 10 mm Glock factory barrel doesn't stabilize the the 230 gr 10mm ammo but a Lone Wolf barrel does. If I changed out the barrel it would be for accuracy reasons if needed. That isn't a problem with my G27. If I were to reload I would get an aftermarket barrel as there is supposed to be less bulging of the brass in the tighter aftermarket chamber. If you don't plan on reloading and the Glock barrel is accurate with that ammo why buy a new barrel? Spend the money on ammo. As I have stated before DT offers their hardcast bullets for sale separately or in loaded ammo.

Snowman92D
09-26-2010, 21:21
I was talking about ballistics. Which gold dot load has the optimal penetration and expansion out of a G27?

The R&D engineers used the Glock 27 pistol when developing their "short-barrel" (SB) 180-grain Gold Dot .40 load. If you want any of their test info, send me a PM.

cowboy1964
09-26-2010, 23:15
I like 200 gr WFNGC Double Tap ammo. Bullets look like a little oil drum and regardless of velocity they will make a big hole and penetrate better than a HP. Before anyone brings up the overpenetration argument, a study showed that only 12 percent of bullets in LEO shootouts with BGs actually hit the target. The issue is not people being hit by bullets that pass through BGs, its people being hit by bullets that missed the BG all together. The percentage of people hit by bullets passing through a BG was very small. I don't have to worry about velocity, denim plugged HPs, etc.

Overpenetration is still something to be avoided. Regardless of whether or not you think it's irrelevent in terms of dangers to others, how about that the fact that it's not dumping all of it's energy in the BG? Probably not getting optimal expansion either.

NonPCnraRN
09-27-2010, 21:36
Overpenetration is still something to be avoided. Regardless of whether or not you think it's irrelevent in terms of dangers to others, how about that the fact that it's not dumping all of it's energy in the BG? Probably not getting optimal expansion either.

The wide flat nosed bullet creates a large wound because the large meplat pushes tissue out of the way, the way a wadcutter cuts a clean hole in paper vs the small ragged hole left by rn ammo. The bullet creates shock waves radiating out at about 90 degrees from the flat point (meplat). The higher the impact velocity the larger the wound. The bullet is designed to punch a large wound all the way through the target, leaving 2 wounds. Most of the energy is still in the bullet as it exits yet it still creates a large wound. At handgun velocities there is no energy dump per se. The energy dump theory comes into play with rifle cartridge velocities which are MUCH higher than handgun velocities. Why this theory is still promoted with respect to handgun ammo alludes me. 330-350 gr WFN bullets in the 45 Colt at 1200 fps will punch through both sides of an 1800 lb bison taking out a shoulder and heart/lungs and exit the other side. The bullet sails on through dumping the bison where he stood yet there is no "energy dump". I know hunting bison has little to do with SD but I use this example to show that the bullet kills not by "dumping" energy but by blowing a large hole completely through the target. A WFN bullet in a SD handgun will also make a similar wound. Unlike the need for high velocity to make a HP expand, all you need is just enough velocity for the bullet to just exit the target. It is notworthy that ammo makers like BB and DT are using wide meplat bullets besides HPs giving you a choice. Most ammo makers made the leap from rn ball ammo to HP ammo bypassing WFN bullets. The truncated cone and SWC designs were a start. You might be surprised what a 250 gr WFN 45 cal bullet at 750 to 800 fps will do to a BG without having to dump any energy. Similar performance by a WFN 200 gr 40 cal bullet would have the same effect. Again the study I referred to previously showed that in shootouts with LEOs, only 12% of rounds actually hit the bad guy. So out of a 100 rounds fired, 88 bullets missed the BG. Now statistically which is the greater threat, a 12% hit rate or a bullet passing through a BG and hitting a bystander? As an aside, none of those misses dumped any energy in the BG either.

Snowman92D
09-27-2010, 23:31
You might be surprised what a 250 gr WFN 45 cal bullet at 750 to 800 fps will do to a BG without having to dump any energy.

Okay. What would it do...and what are you basing that on?

NonPCnraRN
09-28-2010, 12:59
Okay. What would it do...and what are you basing that on?

It would make a large wound through the BG, based on similar bullets at similar velocities on deer for example. John Linebaugh states that a 250 gr 44 spl of a similar bullet style will pass end to end through a deer at 900 fps. IIRC, that is his wife's favorite load because it is easy shooting and kills effectively. Since over penetration is a big concern for some people then the round can be loaded down to 700 -750 fps, not put undue stress on the pistol and still ruin a BG's day. If you still believe that energy dump is what stops BGs or animals then read works by Elmer Keith, John Taffin, Marshall Stanton (Bear Creek Bullets), Veral Smith (Lead Bullets Technology), and John Linebaugh to name a few. Their theories are tested on animals, some of which would lower your standing on the food chain if given a chance. John Linebaugh gives seminars on this very subject with attendies shooting their favorite load through standardized test media, which include animal bones. The results of these tests are published to give people a good idea of how certain loads actually perform. Granted the information provided by these people is based on field results not how much jello the FBI believes a bullet should penetrate.

The original post was a question regarding which of 4 bullet weights would be best for a G27. My answer of a 200 gr bullet with a wide (.32 inch) meplat was offered as an alternative instead of trying to figure out which weight bullet you need for which model of 40 cal Glock. If you use a bullet with a large meplat and good sectional density then it doesn't matter if it is a G27, G23, or G22. You load the gun and Heaven forbid if you ever have to use it, put the bullets where they need to be. For me it is comforting to know that if the bullet hits the sternum it has the ability to take out portions of the heart, lungs, major vessels and the spine. To me it makes more sense than trying to figure out which bullet weight is optimum for which barrel length. I'm sure that there a many fine expensive HP bullets out there for SD, so many in fact that many have forgotten that an inexpensive hardcast bullet with a large meplat will do the job just as well.

Snowman92D
09-28-2010, 13:55
Okay...thanks. I was just checking. I know there are a some folks who believe that all you can do in a defensive shooting is poke a hole all the way through someone, and then wait around for them to bleed out internally.

NonPCnraRN
09-28-2010, 18:37
Okay...thanks. I was just checking. I know there are a some folks who believe that all you can do in a defensive shooting is poke a hole all the way through someone, and then wait around for them to bleed out internally.

Isn't that basically what hollowpoints were invented to do, go from a smaller diameter bullet to a larger diameter bullet in order to make a larger wound? If you have a bullet with a large meplat, a larger wound will result compared to the same caliber with a RN or smaller meplat. With hardcast bullets wound size is determined by meplat size x impact velocity. The performance of a HP bullet is more dependent on impact velocity than a hardcast bullet with a large meplat. Plus the HP performance is dependent on what it passes through ie clothing, barrier material, etc. There are less performance variables with the hardcast large meplat bullet than a hollowpoint. Using the Beartooth Permanent Wound Channel Calculator a DT 200 gr WFNGC with a .32" meplat at an impact velocity of 1009 fps will create a wound diameter of .80 inch. That is based on velocity at the muzzle (DT). Lets assume that the true impact velocity is really 850 fps, then the wound diameter is .64 inch. Either wound size is greater than the .40 inch diameter of the bullet by 160% to 200%. The bullet will do more than just poke a hole. Tissue had to be destroyed to increase the wound. This wound formula used by Marshall Stanton at Beartooth has been validated by similar results in wound diameter from hunting live game. A bullet of this type that penetrates deep enough to hit the spine will cause incapacitation faster than just bleeding out. I am not aware of any CNS damage due to "energy dump" as opposed to blunt trauma to the CNS from a bullet. The hardcast bullet usually makes 2 hole to bleed out from as opposed to bleeding out internally. Look at some of the wounds created in game animals on such sites as SingleActions.com and you will get an appreciation of what old school technology can do. I realize nothing I say will convince you otherwise and it was not my intent to dissuade you from using HP ammo. I was just offering a low tech but effective alternative to the quandry of which bullet weight the OP should use in his G27. With that said, one should do some research into validity of the "energy dump" theory as it relates to HP handgun ammo. HPs that expand as designed are effective because they increase wound size over round nose non expanding ammo, not because they "dump energy' in the target.

Snowman92D
09-29-2010, 03:53
Beartooth Permanent Wound Channel Calculator, eh...? Is that anything like Taylor's Knock-Out scale, or something like that?

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm a proponent of "energy dump". Is that how you categorize anyone who doesn't whole-heartedly embrace your views? Or is it simply part of the wind-up doll rhetoric you've memorized that you "dump" into every discussion?

It took me a while, but I eventually learned to be very wary of people who enthusiastically attempt to adapt reality to their sport or hobby. I wouldn't modify a fighting handgun the way an IPSC shooter recommends, for example, any more than I'd select defensive ammunition based solely on its performance in gel-testing. It's the same thing with attempting to adapt hunting scenarios to defensive shooting. I find it curious that you admitted that, yet went on with your canned rhetoric.

I'm wary of people who expound on a cherished "theory" that they also use as a basis to make money...like expert witness fees, or custom guns and custom ammo. Most of all, I've learned to be wary of hucksters who cherry-pick their way through shooting data to find "real life" shooting incidents that "prove" their pet "theory" and loudly decry any data that runs against their cash-cow hypothesis. I learned that years ago, as have most people who are serious students of defensive shooting.

You have to make a solid CNS hit, or wreck your assailant's fighting mindset, with your gunfire to get yourself past the time constraints that overwhelm most defensive shooting incidents. That's why it's hard to understand your penchant for simply destroying tissue with a large meplat bullet as if shooting someone to hamburger is an effective tool against, say, a drug-addled individual who is attempting to rip you from collar-bone to crotch with a chain-saw. It goes beyond making hamburger of your attacker's tissues. The object is to put someone down now, whether you kill him or not...not cause his lingering death next week in the hospital, or at best a minute or so after he's killed you. The time constraints will overwhelm the situation if you don't work to twist them in your favor. Randomly destroying tissue or blowing exit holes out the guy's back won't take effect fast enough most of the time.

I remember years ago when everyone complained about the 158-grain LRN .38 Special bullet. Some folks advocated using 148-grain wadcutters with the largest meplat in the caliber, but it made no difference in practical effect. Zip...zero...nada. Several agencies took the "scientific" route, like NYPD did, and starting issuing 158-grain SWC .38 Special duty ammo. You know...larger meplat for the caliber. But those were no more effective than the LRN .38's. I know, I know...an NYPD officer used a SWC duty load to kill a polar bear at the Bronx zoo who was mauling a kid foolish enough to climb into the animal's area. (Despite the increased tissue destruction, the bear didn't die within the time frame needed to save the youngster.) To top that off, several ballistic researchers subsequently declared that the SWC .38 Special load was no more effective in gel-testing than the previously issued LRN bullet was.

Maybe if it was a bigger caliber SWC compared to a bigger LRN? Maybe there's a magic diameter or velocity at which large meplats start to demonstrate their true superiority?

You made me smile when you wrote:

"I realize nothing I say will convince you otherwise and it was not my intent to dissuade you from using HP ammo."

You seem to be prone to make a lot of assumptions about people. My "agenda" isn't geared toward HP's, large meplats, kydex holsters, central axis re-locks, gell-o testing, Isosceles, or any other handy category you might carry in your mind. It's simply what works the best for taking the fight out of homicidal people in situations where it isn't all that easy to do so. That's the reality of what interests me. If the names you've been dropping in previous postings have an individual or collective experience of shooting sizable numbers of people with both hollow-point and solid pistol rounds, I'd be very interested in listening to it. If large caliber meplats at 800 fps were the key to winning in the tick-tick-tick time frame of most defensive handgun shootings, we'd all be carrying .445 Webleys and Colt New Service .44 Specials.

NonPCnraRN
09-29-2010, 13:20
Beartooth Permanent Wound Channel Calculator, eh...? Is that anything like Taylor's Knock-Out scale, or something like that?

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm a proponent of "energy dump". Is that how you categorize anyone who doesn't whole-heartedly embrace your views? Or is it simply part of the wind-up doll rhetoric you've memorized that you "dump" into every discussion?

It took me a while, but I eventually learned to be very wary of people who enthusiastically attempt to adapt reality to their sport or hobby. I wouldn't modify a fighting handgun the way an IPSC shooter recommends, for example, any more than I'd select defensive ammunition based solely on its performance in gel-testing. It's the same thing with attempting to adapt hunting scenarios to defensive shooting. I find it curious that you admitted that, yet went on with your canned rhetoric.

I'm wary of people who expound on a cherished "theory" that they also use as a basis to make money...like expert witness fees, or custom guns and custom ammo. Most of all, I've learned to be wary of hucksters who cherry-pick their way through shooting data to find "real life" shooting incidents that "prove" their pet "theory" and loudly decry any data that runs against their cash-cow hypothesis. I learned that years ago, as have most people who are serious students of defensive shooting.

You have to make a solid CNS hit, or wreck your assailant's fighting mindset, with your gunfire to get yourself past the time constraints that overwhelm most defensive shooting incidents. That's why it's hard to understand your penchant for simply destroying tissue with a large meplat bullet as if shooting someone to hamburger is an effective tool against, say, a drug-addled individual who is attempting to rip you from collar-bone to crotch with a chain-saw. It goes beyond making hamburger of your attacker's tissues. The object is to put someone down now, whether you kill him or not...not cause his lingering death next week in the hospital, or at best a minute or so after he's killed you. The time constraints will overwhelm the situation if you don't work to twist them in your favor. Randomly destroying tissue or blowing exit holes out the guy's back won't take effect fast enough most of the time.

I remember years ago when everyone complained about the 158-grain LRN .38 Special bullet. Some folks advocated using 148-grain wadcutters with the largest meplat in the caliber, but it made no difference in practical effect. Zip...zero...nada. Several agencies took the "scientific" route, like NYPD did, and starting issuing 158-grain SWC .38 Special duty ammo. You know...larger meplat for the caliber. But those were no more effective than the LRN .38's. I know, I know...an NYPD officer used a SWC duty load to kill a polar bear at the Bronx zoo who was mauling a kid foolish enough to climb into the animal's area. (Despite the increased tissue destruction, the bear didn't die within the time frame needed to save the youngster.) To top that off, several ballistic researchers subsequently declared that the SWC .38 Special load was no more effective in gel-testing than the previously issued LRN bullet was.

Maybe if it was a bigger caliber SWC compared to a bigger LRN? Maybe there's a magic diameter or velocity at which large meplats start to demonstrate their true superiority?

You made me smile when you wrote:

"I realize nothing I say will convince you otherwise and it was not my intent to dissuade you from using HP ammo."

You seem to be prone to make a lot of assumptions about people. My "agenda" isn't geared toward HP's, large meplats, kydex holsters, central axis re-locks, gell-o testing, Isosceles, or any other handy category you might carry in your mind. It's simply what works the best for taking the fight out of homicidal people in situations where it isn't all that easy to do so. That's the reality of what interests me. If the names you've been dropping in previous postings have an individual or collective experience of shooting sizable numbers of people with both hollow-point and solid pistol rounds, I'd be very interested in listening to it. If large caliber meplats at 800 fps were the key to winning in the tick-tick-tick time frame of most defensive handgun shootings, we'd all be carrying .445 Webleys and Colt New Service .44 Specials.

Ok, you win. You have any sports teams we can argue about? We'll have to take it to a different section of the forum though.

Snowman92D
09-29-2010, 14:21
I prefer not arguing with fellow 2nd Amendment proponents. Always figured we have more that unites us than divides us.

NonPCnraRN
09-29-2010, 15:08
I prefer not arguing with fellow 2nd Amendment proponents. Always figured we have more that unites us than divides us.

Argue? Two guys having a passionate discussion promoting differing points of view. Either that or your post was bigger than mine and I suffer from post envy! :crying:

MTS532
09-29-2010, 21:50
A bullet of this type that penetrates deep enough to hit the spine will cause incapacitation faster than just bleeding out. I am not aware of any CNS damage due to "energy dump" as opposed to blunt trauma to the CNS from a bullet. The hardcast bullet usually makes 2 hole to bleed out from as opposed to bleeding out internally. Look at some of the wounds created in game animals on such sites as SingleActions.com and you will get an appreciation of what old school technology can do.

There is a lot of good information in your posts.

Back in the day, soldiers noticed a difference in stopping power when the US switched from the .45-70 to the .30 Krag. The smaller, more streamlined bullets seemed to zip right through enemy combatants rather than drop them. While typical small arms engagements were at most 200 yards, soldiers were given increasingly smaller, more aerodynamic rounds with spitzer-type bullets which simply drilled small holes through enemy troops. The smaller bullets were more accurate at longer ranges, but were less effective at closer ranges, where typical combat takes place anyway.

The British had a similar experience with the .577/450 Martini-Henry during the Zulu wars when they later switched to the .303. While more accurate at longer ranges, the bullets lacked the stopping power of the older, larger bullets.

The old African hunters knew this. For dangerous game, they went for heavy bullets driven at moderate velocities. The lower chamber pressure kept the gun working in the hot African sun.

We should have listened to them.

Maybe this is why there are cartridges like the .458 SOCOM or the .50 Beowulf. Both have been used for military applications such as vehicle or barrier penetration. The good guys are seeing bad guys drop much faster with large caliber, moderate velocity bullets.

As far as handguns, the same principle is applied.

Haymarket
09-30-2010, 08:48
As far as handguns, the same principle is applied.


That seems to be based on anecdotal evidence, as statistically, the hot and light .357 magnum 125 grain JHP performs the best against bad guys among all calibers...doesn't it?

NonPCnraRN
09-30-2010, 09:49
That seems to be based on anecdotal evidence, as statistically, the hot and light .357 magnum 125 grain JHP performs the best against bad guys among all calibers...doesn't it?

The 357 mag from a 4" barrel has an optimal sectional density/velocity combination that helps create a large wound. A large caliber hardcast bullet needs a wide meplat to be effective. With a large meplat it can be as effective as the 357. The trouble is that most semiautos were originally designed for round nosed ball ammo. It is a misconception that a RN bullet makes a caliber sized hole. But put a flat point on that bullet and things change dramatically. The larger the flat point (meplat) the more dramatic the wound size as compared to ball ammo of the same caliber. As semiautos improve feeding capability WFN bullets can be used. A good example is the 200 gr WFN DT uses in their 10mm and 40 S&W ammo. They are not dependant on a HP opening up to be effective. If a HP fails to expand it is essentially RN ball. But WFN bullets are not in vogue for SD pistols as a lot of R&D has gone into developing increasingly better HPs. And no one can deny the effectiveness of the 125 gr. 357 mag fired in a 4" barreled revolver. Due to its popularity there is a large database about its ability as a SD round. Unfortunately the database for large caliber/large meplat effectiveness is related to those who hunt with a handgun. One of the things learned was that it is the meplat size not caliber that determines wound diameter. The previously mentioned 200 gr 10mm WFN bullet with a .32 inch meplat will create a greater diameter wound than a 45 ACP truncated cone bullet with a .27 inch meplat if both bullets are at the same velocity. Optimally, a 45 ACP bullet with a .36" meplat will out perform either of the other two. Better than a hollow point for SD? Probably not if the HP performs as designed. I prefer a WFN acknowledging it may not be as good as an HP that opened completely but it performs the same way each time. Will it penetrate too much? It depends on how fast you load it. It is difficult to tailor a round to be optimum in all situations whether you use a hollowpoint or WFN hardcast. It is even harder to develop a round that is optimally effective against both 2 legged and 4 legged targets. The nice thing about the WFN is that you can cast your own if you want and even the commercial offerings are cheaper than premium HPs. That helps if you want to practice with the same ammo you carry for SD. I am not saying that one should carry this or that style of ammo. I am only stating what I use and why.

NonPCnraRN
09-30-2010, 10:22
Beartooth Permanent Wound Channel Calculator, eh...? Is that anything like Taylor's Knock-Out scale, or something like that?

Snowman: It is a formula from the Beartooth Bullet website section called Ballistician's Corner. There are numerous formulas listed. IIRC Marshall Stanton of Beartooth includes this formula as it is fairly accurate at predicting wound diameter caused by hardcast bullets. It is based on meplat size and impact velocity. The predicted wound diameters have been validated by wounds in game animals. The formula is not applicable to RN bullets (no meplat) or HPs. You may or may not agree with some of the formulas but there are some such as sectional density or foot pounds of energy calculations that make life easy because you just plug in the numbers and the formula relieves the brain strain. Here is the link. http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/wound.htm This link has all the formulas. http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/index.htm

MTS532
09-30-2010, 11:39
That seems to be based on anecdotal evidence, as statistically, the hot and light .357 magnum 125 grain JHP performs the best against bad guys among all calibers...doesn't it?

If you believe such statistics, according to M&S, the 125 gr. .357 Magnum JHP round is on par with the old 230 gr. .45 ACP Federal Hydra-Shok. Both are around 96% in the OSS category.

One side relies upon causing physical trauma, the other relies mainly upon the psychological effects of a gunshot wound to stop the threat.

Medical and autopsy reports, FBI testing, after-action police reports and over a century of battlefield reports indicate that a larger permanent wound cavity causes greater physical trauma than smaller, lighter projectiles.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714

In fact, if either side relies on anecdotal evidence, it would be the "light and fast" crowd, evidenced by the purported "Strasbourg Goat Tests."

The way to cause a larger permanent wound cavity is to use large diameter bullets with a wide meplat. Since some semi-autos won't feed such bullets, JHP is probably the next best thing.

If the bullet doesn't expand, it's still creating a larger hole through the target, and the heavy weight of the bullet is not as easily deflected by bones or some other intervening barriers.

NonPCnraRN
09-30-2010, 12:06
MTS532: Your tag line: "Whichever service caliber you carry, expect a failure to stop and keep shooting!" pretty well sums up the appropriate response to most of the "Which caliber, ammo, gun, etc is better?" type questions. Whether you like HPs, hardball, SWCs, or WFN hardcast, no bullet type is going to be optimal in all situations and most of the time the choice is a compromise of many factors. Make the best informed choice in ammo, practice, practice, practice and if an armed response is necessary to defend yourself or others put the goblin (as Jeff Cooper called BGs) down.

40 Cal Joe
09-30-2010, 12:33
Just to keep it simple, I use 180's in all 40 cal pistols. This is a change for me.

Haymarket
10-01-2010, 05:17
If you believe such statistics, according to M&S, the 125 gr. .357 Magnum JHP round is on par with the old 230 gr. .45 ACP Federal Hydra-Shok. Both are around 96% in the OSS category.

One side relies upon causing physical trauma, the other relies mainly upon the psychological effects of a gunshot wound to stop the threat.
.

If the .357 relies "mainly upon the psychological effects of a gunshot wound to stop the threat" as you indicate...wouldn't all the other calibers have that same effect? Why would .45ACP ball ammo (and all ball ammo) be so far down the list in OSS...as you get the psychological effect of a gunshot, right? I think it's pretty hard to argue that you get a differential psychological effect from .357 magnum than from any other service round; thus it must be that the light and fast bullet in some cases causes the most physical trauma, resulting in such great OSS stats.