9mm not good enough for GT! [Archive] - Glock Talk

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M&P Shooter
10-02-2010, 20:56
I have been doing a lot of 9mm research lately because I want to get a Glock 19 but don't know if I trust a 9mm for defense like a lot of others. Now here's what baffles me, the round is dumped on by a lot of people for being not a good fight stopper but then it's carried by the SAS, U.S. Military, and so many others I cant even remember. So why is the 9mm the focus of so much controversy but carried by so many Armed Forces since the Nazi Army?

I'm just curious since like I said I really was thinking of getting a Glock 19 tomorrow. I'm not asking 9mm compared to any other caliber, I'm just curious about the 9mm period:wavey:

MURRAY
10-02-2010, 21:01
nothing at all wrong with 9mm with the right load and you during your part hitting the target

LASTRESORT20
10-02-2010, 21:08
Get the G19...handy... loved by many...very potent especially with good defensive ammo. Used world wide...cheaper ammo than bigger calibers (another reason why many Militaries use them) Besides being...a very good "penetrating" round..Buy it dont look back.

cowboy1964
10-02-2010, 21:10
I just posted a link in the Lounge section about 6 SAS-trained guys protecting Prince Harry because of the increased terror threat. Guess what they carry: Glock 19!

9 is fine, and even has advantages of it's own.

NAC
10-02-2010, 21:17
The 9mm is a good round. A lot of the negativity with the 9mm IMO stems from tradition and the military's use of FMJ, JHP is a whole different story. The militaries of the world use it because it's cheap and one can carry more rounds/platform.

Keep a few things in mind, first no handgun round is really "effective" unless you start getting into the magnum categories. Then you're limited due to recoil issues and firepower.

Second, people only stop fighting for one of three reasons; they bleed out, freak out, or have a CNS hit, all the other reasons you can think of fall into one of these three catagories. Our goal is to stop the fight. People get wrapped up in the caliber debate. A .45 is only 2mm bigger than a 9mm. People will say it's a bigger hole. Well with the bigger hole debate, you're talking about reason 1- bleeding out. Big deal bleeding out will still take 10-30 seconds and coupled with adrenaline I can pull the trigger quite a few times in that time frame and it has been seen many times in real life. So bigger hole debate is worthless IMO.

I'd much rather choose more rounds on hand to engage multiple bad guys and make multiple hits on target than have 1 or 2 extra millimeters and that's talking with FMJ. Experience has shown us that it takes multiple hits on target to drop a bad guy regardless of caliber. I choose more rounds, I choose the 9mm.

You already know all of this stuff, I know that. Sometimes it just helps to have it put another way.

dreis454
10-03-2010, 05:38
"A .45 is only 2mm bigger than a 9mm. People will say it's a bigger hole. Well with the bigger hole debate, you're talking about reason 1- bleeding out."

Every time I read this statement I think....so Since a .32 is just a little smaller than a 9mm so it must be almost as good.

ronin.45
10-03-2010, 06:53
I carry a 9mm about 95% of the time. With modern ammo it is a very effective cartridge. Some people just like to carry cannons to make themselves feel better. To each their own.

TheGrimReaper
10-03-2010, 08:21
Well,I love the 9mm, and the G19 platform. So much I own 2 Glock 19's and carry one most days. That or a G26. Buy one and sleep comfortably!

1canvas
10-03-2010, 08:34
i figure for an instant stop the bullet must be built well enough and have enough energy and stay together to break ribs, not deflect and then penetrate to the spine with enough force to the CNS to incapacitate, then do a lot of damage on non CNS. yes, a 9mm can with the right bullet in the right placement but there is not the margin i believe for error in those two requirements that a .40, 357sig, or .45acp have. look how poorly the 9mm performed years ago before bullet and ballistic development. now perfomance through those two has made the 9mm better but has made the other rounds mentioned better also. if you believe quicker and more follow up shots provide all of that then the 9mm may be for you. i am more comfortable with a little more horse power.

jlavallee
10-03-2010, 08:52
For SD purposes you want a combination of size, weight, penetration. If you look at good SD ammo you have the size, the weight and penetration needed with 9mm easily.

People who talk bigger holes are full of *****, most rifle rounds are 30 caliber so it's not just size. It's not just velocity either.

For me, a .38 spl +p load with a good hollow point is about where the SD needs are met and after mid .357 magnum is where excess starts. Basically, a good JHP with 250-600 # energy that YOU can shoot well and meets your other needs for platform etc...

.38spl, 9mm, .40S&W. .45ACP, .45GAP, .357 SIG, 10mm, 44 spl and .357 Mag all have choices in this range. For me, I carry 9mm in pistols and .38 spl/.357 mag in revos for SD needs against bipeds.

ABNAK
10-03-2010, 08:52
As far as platform goes, I don't think you could have a better choice than a Glock 19. I own two. It's like the AK of handguns. Just the right size for CCW and yet still have good ballistic performance, as well as being rugged as hell. On another board the question was asked "If you could only have one handgun, what would it be?" A full 20% of responses said Glock 19; mind you this was from any choice of makers/models/calibers. It was the single most mentioned handgun, period.

As far as caliber goes? A number of years ago I would have poo-poo'd the 9mm. However, with the advances in bullet design we have these days (HST specifically for me), I think the gap between 9/40/45 has been narrowed significantly. At least enough for me to comfortably carry a Glock 19 for personal defense and not look back.

granitemonkey
10-03-2010, 09:08
Glock 19 + Speer Gold Dot 124gr +p = Perfect Combo. If I had to go somewhere dangerous. This is what I would I have, I own guns in all formats and calibers. But I am a 9MM junkie. I love this caliber and I own more guns in 9MM than other caliber.

mr peas
10-03-2010, 09:16
When purchasing my first Glock, I had this dilemma as well. After talking with a friend's husband who is a LEO and a SWAT, I found out that many of the police officers carry 9mm because they find that they are more accurate with it. Understand that these are personal preferences and that it is not a homogeneous preference.

Now, this is the way I perceive it as a non-LEO. With 9mm, I am able to purchase a case (1k rds) of NATO ammo for around $230-$250 shipped. I like to practice with these rounds because they are the least expensive 9mm rounds one can purchase with ballistics close to that of JHP ammunition you would be using when you are forced to protect yourself. This is a big deal because I must proficient in the tool I wield, especially when the tool is for defense of oneself and one's loved ones.

Overall, 9mm ammo will cost you less, much less overtime. Also, if you were arming yourself for home defense and you feel that you need more horse-power to stop a bad guy within the confines of your home, a shotgun with be a much better tool.

As for me, my first and only Glock is a G19 Gen4. Its not too small and its not too big or heavy. I haven't regretted purchasing it yet!

happyguy
10-03-2010, 09:27
9mm works as advertised and I carry it often.

.40 also works as advertised and I carry it also.

No worry's mate, just get off the line and shoot the important stuff.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

glocknbruce
10-03-2010, 09:31
Pick up this months American Handgunner and read the "Ayoob Files"........CCW'er was using standard pressure Gold Dot 124 grain.......

bad guy was just as dead as if he had been hit by a bazooka!!!!!

edit: i carry a G26 with Ranger 127 +p+......best load IMO for 9mm

mastrbloata
10-03-2010, 09:32
I'm going to try to say this WITHOUT being provocative because I don't want to offend the memories of the deceased or come across as pompous and dismissive of the reality of the horror that is now sadly a piece of our history in the United States. Also, being as I already have a scratch against me for "rude behavior", I'm not actively seeking to take another hit. I hope that my sincerity is completely transparent and jumps off the screen at the reader like a train coming through a 3-D screen.

Everytime I have seen a similar thread around here before, and after a certain incident occurred, the same thing always crops up in my mind and I never post to it for fear of being seen as vulgar perhaps and disrespectful. But today, for whatever reason, I'm finally going to say it. Offending anyone is not my intention. I'm just stating the obvious (as terrible as it is) because it's happened already and nothing short of traveling back in H.G. Wells time machine can undo it.

Glock 19. Virginia Tech. I'm NOT going to expand on this. It's self evident I believe.

David Armstrong
10-03-2010, 09:32
Now here's what baffles me, the round is dumped on by a lot of people for being not a good fight stopper but then it's carried by the SAS, U.S. Military, and so many others I cant even remember.
It's not just the military. Once you get outside of the U.S. you find the 9mm is pretty much at the top of the calibers for LE use and for civilian carry worldwide. The fascination with bigger calibers seems somewhat restricted to the U.S. I've never figured out if it is because our BGs are tougher or our shooters are worse.

NAC
10-03-2010, 10:05
"A .45 is only 2mm bigger than a 9mm. People will say it's a bigger hole. Well with the bigger hole debate, you're talking about reason 1- bleeding out."

Every time I read this statement I think....so Since a .32 is just a little smaller than a 9mm so it must be almost as good.

NO, you're comparing two different things. You need a minimum velocity and energy level to be comparative. In the service calibers velocity and energy levels are roughly the equivalent for the respective duty calibers.If you pushed the .32 up in velocity then yes it would be just as effective as the 9mm. Look what happens when you push a .22 caliber round you get the velocities of the 5.56. Certainly more effective than a 9mm but wait it's smaller how can that be?

Aceman
10-03-2010, 10:11
Why do SAS and SEAL's carry it? Well, they tend to hit what they are shooting at....

fredj338
10-03-2010, 10:16
i figure for an instant stop the bullet must be built well enough and have enough energy and stay together to break ribs, not deflect and then penetrate to the spine with enough force to the CNS to incapacitate, then do a lot of damage on non CNS. yes, a 9mm can with the right bullet in the right placement but there is not the margin i believe for error in those two requirements that a .40, 357sig, or .45acp have. look how poorly the 9mm performed years ago before bullet and ballistic development. now perfomance through those two has made the 9mm better but has made the other rounds mentioned better also. if you believe quicker and more follow up shots provide all of that then the 9mm may be for you. i am more comfortable with a little more horse power.
Well said.
but then it's carried by the SAS, U.S. Military, and so many others I cant even remember. So why is the 9mm the focus of so much controversy but carried by so many Armed Forces since the Nazi Army?
It's carried by so many because it is issued to them. In Europian circles, a 380 is common, so a 9mm is an upgrade in power. Like Ican, I look at a pistol as a minimal weapon, so why limit yourself to the smallest caliber, especially if you can shoot bigger. While shot placement is king, no one is going to gaurantee a CNS shot in a moving gunfight, at night with the bullets flying. If I only land a single hit, I want the biggest hole possible, even if it is a peripheral hit. Nope, not FOS, anyone that shoots living things knows bigger holes mean fast bleed out.
Here in Kalif, we get 10rds. I only look to a 9mm in a compact or subcompact as I can get 10 40s in a G23 or 10 45 in a XDcomp. With the 9mm, I feel bullet/ammo selection is more important. JMO, 9 is fine, if that is what you shoot best. There may be only a small marginal increase in effectiveness w/ the larger calibers, but as long as you can shoot them, why not take the increase?:dunno:

Darkangel1846
10-03-2010, 10:18
The instant stop, stopping power, knock down power are all myth!
Head shots don't always stop someone bent on killing you.
In most cases shot placement is key.......Central nervous system hits USUALLY stop someone, breaking a major bone in their thigh will stop their forward movement most of the time, but not always.
The best you can do is place your rounds in the best area, keep shooting until the threat stops, and hope they are not on hugh amounts of drugs. If you can fire from cover or move while you shoot..
I carry a 9mm everyday.

Petrie
10-03-2010, 10:31
when I bought my 92fs my girlfriend's dad told me not to shoot anybody with it. Him being an ex-cop I thought he meant to be responsible and safe with it, but then he says "you'll just piss them off". :supergrin: He pulled out his old police issue smith and wesson (1006 I believe) 10mm auto loaded with Black Talons. But, I'm completely commited to 9mm because the ammos a lot cheaper so I can practice more. Plus the extra capacity of a 9mm.
Tough call though. There are criminals out there that are bigger and meaner than a bear, and nobody in their right mind would try and bring down a bear with a 9mm. You'd use a 44 mag. at least. This is America where harlf the people have six plus inches of bullet absorbing blubber protecting their vitals. In Europe everybody is thin so a 9mm is adequate. :dunno:

cowboywannabe
10-03-2010, 10:33
the G19 is a good al around gun and caliber/mm.

glocknbruce
10-03-2010, 10:34
This is America where harlf the people have six plus inches of bullet absorbing blubber protecting their vitals. In Europe everybody is thin so a 9mm is adequate. :dunno:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

happyguy
10-03-2010, 10:51
This is America where harlf the people have six plus inches of bullet absorbing blubber protecting their vitals. In Europe everybody is thin so a 9mm is adequate. :dunno:

The Winchester RA9T penetrates to 16 inches and expands to .65-.70 in gelatin. Looks like I have about 10 inches of penetration left after going through the ballistic blubber.

That's more than I expect from my .40.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

ColCol
10-03-2010, 11:09
Not so many moons ago you couldn't have given me a 9mm for SD. I think I read where someone called it a "woodpecker round". I've always been a .45 aficionado and nothing else, if for no other reason, it's "legendary stopping power" and the ease of which it can be reloaded and the brass, bullets handled without fumbling.

But, I was born again. After reading of the many reports and how highly lauded certain rounds(9BP, 9BPE, Ranger T +p and +P+, Gold dots, etc.) were, I had a change of heart. I'd feel no less comfortable using the 9 for home defense or carry than I would a good .45. With hard ball, no-I wouldn't use it but, with the many great bullets on the market today I'd have no qualms about using it at all. In fact, I recently bought a G19 and plan on a G26.

English
10-03-2010, 11:30
M&P Shooter,
The reason the US military uses 9mm is because of an agreement with NATO rather than any objective test of its specific qualities, but some special forces use .45 and the Secret Service and Air Marshals use 357SIG if I remember correctly. Make of that what you can.

The only moral purpose of shooting someone is to stop him from conducting a serious attack on you or someone else. The simple fact of this matter is that shooting someone once often does not achieve that end and so we expect to shoot several times to achieve that end against a determined adversary. During that time he can be continuing his attack and our aim should be to reduce that time as much as possible. Much of the evidence from autopsies seems, take note of the word "seems", to be that, on average, it takes more shots from a 9mm to do this than it takes from a .40S&W, 357SIG or .45ACP/GAP. That suggests that it takes longer to stop an attack with a 9mm than with "better" cartridges if they really are better. There is not much similar evidence about the 10mm and .38 Super but we can assume that they fit into the "better" group.

On the other hand I know two trustworthy individuals who have shot some numbers of people with both .45ACP and 9mm and, although they originally believed the .45 to be far superior, they have been convinced by experience that the 9mm is just as good. So this looks a bit like a toss a coin situation but, in fact, most of the rounds they shot were, I believe, ball and there is a good technical reason why there should not be much difference. Equally, large numbers of the people autopsied were criminal shootings and a majority of them were shot with ball as well because criminals don't know any better.

In spite of all this and for other reasons I think that the cartridges "above" the 9mm really are above it. mastrbloata's delicate reference to Virginia Tech does not count because the victims could not shoot back. .22s will kill people. What is needed is as fast a stop to the proceedings as possible and it is here that the .22 is defficient, the .32 is better, the .380 better still, the .38 Sp. better again, the 9mm better still and so on. All of these rounds are useful but some are better than others for particular purposes.

The 9mm has a niche in the middle range. It is small and cheaper to shoot than anything other than .22. It fits into carryable size pistols from largish pocket pistol size to service pistol size. Many would be happier to fire a 9mm from a small pistol than they would a 357SIG, .40S&W or .45 in the same size and weight of pistol. That transitional size will vary from person to person and with the number of shots to be fired in a session. If that size is what fits you and your needs then that is what you should shoot. If you are able to carry something more powerful than that should be considered.

Because, for any give weight of pistol a given individual can usually fire more rounds of 9mm in comfort than, say, .45ACP it makes sense to have a matching 9mm for much of your practice even if you choose to carry something more powerful. It also makes sense for a beginner to learn with a .22 before progressing to a relatively heavy 9mm, before progressing to a lighter 9mm and so on. The 9mm is a very useful round and it could be considered the best all round cartridge, but that does not make it the best cartridge for everyone for all purposes.

David Armstrong, usually someone worth listening to, points to the fact that caliber wars are limited to the USA and implies from this that 9mm is therefore sufficient and that more than 9mm is a waste. I don't think that this follows. The USA is unique in the world in that there has been great freedom to choose whatever you choose to shoot and carry in most states for much of your fairly recent history. It is this choice that makes such argument possible on a large scale. This was not possible in Europe and even in Swizerland where most male adults have gone through army training and have handguns and rifles they shoot almost only current and historical Swiss arms. Reloading hardly exists, revolvers hardly exist, handgun hunting does not exist.

If you go back to the late 1800s there were good technical reasons why a .45 caliber was an optimum choice for many. In 1911 those reasons still applied though not as strongly. By the 1930s the .38 Super was probably a better choice than the .45ACP. Along came the .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum. Followed by the 10mm, the .40S&W, 357SIG and the almost still born 9x23mm Winchester. What a magnificent history! It could not have happened anywhere else in the world and you should be very proud of the society that made it possible.

In Europe the 9x19mm came into existence before the .45ACP did in the USA. It was a straight wall version of the 7.65mm bottle neck which was a shorter version of the 7.63mm Mauser with performance on a par with the 357SIG back in the late 1800s. Around the same time there were about three different 9x23mms in Europe - the Bergman Bayard, the Steyr and the Spanish Largo. Almost all of these died and the 9x19mm survived to dominate the world with a small remaining presence of the 7.65mm Parabellum which might remain only in Switzerland. Does this mean that the 9x19mm is the best choice for ccw for an American citizen? Obviously not! It was chosen as much by administrators choosing the cheapest bang for the buck as any other reason. It was chosen as a round for a secondary weapon of little fighting importance to the military. Troops used rifles.European Officers had pistols to shoot their own troops who showed a disinclination to obey orders.

The 9mm is OK but it is not a default choice. That choice for a private citizen depends on many factors and the individual should weigh them up as best he can.

English

dkf
10-03-2010, 12:24
I wouldn't put to much emphasis on what the military uses. The Haque convention is the primary reason they use FMJ ammo. With the more advanced bullets we have now I would feel fine carrying a 9mm for SD.

Petrie
10-03-2010, 13:54
http://www.chuckhawks.com/825_magnum.htm

In case anyone missed this. Interesting read on stopping power in the hunting world.

Shin71
10-03-2010, 14:03
First off the 9mm gets dumped on because as a NATO round, carried by the US Military (such as myself) you use ball ammo. 9mm ball tends to make a 9mm hole on both sides of its target; no mushrooming and less kinetic energy transfer/would trauama aggravation.

Law Enforcement in the 'States commonly uses the 9mm but it is the evil, non-NATO ammo such as Gold Dot, SXT, Hydro-shok and other high pressure, hollow-point rounds that have good penetration (against common felons) and cause great secondary wound trauma due to the expellation of energy as they mushroom out allowing more surface area to be contacted and generating friction (and bigger, temporary wound cavities). These rounds make most NATO personnel faint of heart and Liberal Democrats weep but mostly they make bad people dead when applied to the correct target area; usually just as well as a .38, .357, .40 or .45.

9's are good rounds if you buy good, defensive/offensive ammo but ultimately it is shot placement that will service your target the best; unless you are using an area affect weapon of course.

IMO only

cowboy1964
10-03-2010, 14:12
when I bought my 92fs my girlfriend's dad told me not to shoot anybody with it. Him being an ex-cop I thought he meant to be responsible and safe with it, but then he says "you'll just piss them off". :supergrin: He pulled out his old police issue smith and wesson (1006 I believe) 10mm auto loaded with Black Talons.

Funny thing is, in all the shooting stats I've seen 10mm isn't that impressive. Most people think it's some kind of magical stopper but stats show it to be in the same range as .40, maybe not even as good as that. I'm talking humans, not bears and the like where extra penetration is a good thing.

cowboy1964
10-03-2010, 14:16
The whole "bigger hole" thing is largely a non-issue. Ideal penetration and shot placement are 99% of the story.

481
10-03-2010, 14:16
I have been doing a lot of 9mm research lately because I want to get a Glock 19 but don't know if I trust a 9mm for defense like a lot of others. Now here's what baffles me, the round is dumped on by a lot of people for being not a good fight stopper but then it's carried by the SAS, U.S. Military, and so many others I cant even remember. So why is the 9mm the focus of so much controversy...?

Simple. Most folks have no idea about what it really takes to prevail in an armed confrontation.

It ain't the "arrows". It's the "indian". :winkie:

BOGE
10-03-2010, 14:25
Stoke it with 115 gr. +p+ HP`s and don`t worry.

jlavallee
10-03-2010, 15:05
when I bought my 92fs my girlfriend's dad told me not to shoot anybody with it. Him being an ex-cop I thought he meant to be responsible and safe with it, but then he says "you'll just piss them off". :supergrin: He pulled out his old police issue smith and wesson (1006 I believe) 10mm auto loaded with Black Talons. But, I'm completely commited to 9mm because the ammos a lot cheaper so I can practice more. Plus the extra capacity of a 9mm.
Tough call though. There are criminals out there that are bigger and meaner than a bear, and nobody in their right mind would try and bring down a bear with a 9mm. You'd use a 44 mag. at least. This is America where harlf the people have six plus inches of bullet absorbing blubber protecting their vitals. In Europe everybody is thin so a 9mm is adequate. :dunno:

I think I just peed my pants laughing at you.

You're girl's dad shouldn't have been breeding and your "logic" indicates you shouldn't either. Please do the world a solid and get snipped now.:rofl:

fastbolt
10-03-2010, 15:43
Back when I first entered LE you couldn't have given me a 9mm pistol as a gift. When it came to semiauto pistols, I was a .45 guy. Period.

Over the course of having spent a career in LE, though, during which I carried issued .357 Magnum, 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP weapons, as well as carrying personally-owned handguns chambered in those and other calibers, I'm fine with carrying any of the major service-type calibers for defensive use.

I finished my career carrying an issued .45, but that's only because they wouldn't allow me to continue carrying an issued 9mm. ;) I had a couple of issued compact aluminum 9's which I really liked and shot well.

When it came to off-duty weapons I usually carried .38 Spl, 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP, pretty much in that order. Ditto for my retirement.

It's just a handgun chambered in one or another of the major defensive calibers which have seen service usage.

I've used standard pressure, +P & +P+ loads for 9mm, depending on what was available at hand at the moment (either issued or OTC).

What do you shoot well? What works best for you with your chosen lawful concealment methods?

If you have more than one answer to those questions, that's fine. Choose whatever suits you.

I spend a goodly amount of time training, practicing & qualifying with all my various handguns chambered in those calibers. I pick what suits me on any given day, dressing accordingly for whatever activities I have planned.