Speer9mm 124gr GDHP v. 124gr +P GDHP [Archive] - Glock Talk

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DocCasualty
10-03-2010, 22:48
My GoogleFu must be on the fritz. I'm trying to find some reliable comparisons between the +P and non +P cartridges of Speer's 9mm 124gr GDHP. I know that the +P variety is given the thumbs up on Gary Robert's "approved" list but have no idea how the non +P variety performs in various gelatin tests. I have been having a tough time locating the +P for sale and would like to see how the standard pressure load fares in the same tests, both in short and standard length barrels.

BOGE
10-03-2010, 23:26
My GoogleFu must be on the fritz. I'm trying to find some reliable comparisons between the +P and non +P cartridges of Speer's 9mm 124gr GDHP. I know that the +P variety is given the thumbs up on Gary Robert's "approved" list but have no idea how the non +P variety performs in various gelatin tests. I have been having a tough time locating the +P for sale and would like to see how the standard pressure load fares in the same tests, both in short and standard length barrels.

Not much difference.

Snowman92D
10-04-2010, 04:16
Not sure about gell-o testing, but the standard pressure variety has been used very effectively by U.S. Customs personnel on the Mex border for quite some time now. The +P versions would certainly be more of a good thing, but the standard 124-grain load clearly performs well when used well.

cowboy1964
10-04-2010, 05:11
Yep, both work well from what I have researched. The +P is slightly preferable in 4" barrels and longer, if you really want to eek out every fps possible.

This is one of my favorite tests. Not real scientific (water jugs, no precise penetration figures) but it's interesting:

http://frag.110mb.com/

Tomac
10-04-2010, 06:49
Not ballistic gel but some interesting comparisons nonetheless (including the Speer std & +P 124gr GD): http://stevespages.com/page8f9mmluger.html
Tomac

DocCasualty
10-04-2010, 07:57
I appreciate your thoughts guys and it seems the difference is real but not great. Approximately 100fps between the two and both are about 50fps slower out of the 3.5"bbl compared to a 4.75" bbl.

I finally found a purported list of FBI tests here http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php There are actually two sets of 124gr and 124gr +P GD listed there and the second set shows the 124gr GD also meeting the 12"-18" penetration criteria they set, though the first doesn't. Wonder if these were different points in time with different Gold Dot configurations or just the randomness of testing? Anyway, it seems the differences are pretty neglible with the gel testing too, especially with that second set of numbers.

glocknbruce
10-04-2010, 15:05
Read this months "American Handgunner", The Ayoob Files is abut a CCW'er who put 9 standard pressure gold-dots into a thug..........he died very quickly

mastrbloata
10-04-2010, 16:02
Read this months "American Handgunner", The Ayoob Files is abut a CCW'er who put 9 standard pressure gold-dots into a thug..........he died very quickly Wow, and it only took 9, eh?

DocCasualty
10-04-2010, 17:05
Wow, and it only took 9, eh?

On average, additional findings show, officers may “reasonably” fire 6 rounds or more into suspects who initially are standing and then begin falling and who, in fact, may already be mortally wounded. And that’s 6 rounds per officer involved in the confrontation.

From "“Excessive” shots and falling assailants: A fresh look at OIS subtleties http://www.forcescience.org/fsinews/2010/03/force-science-news-144-%E2%80%9Cexcessive%E2%80%9D-shots-and-falling-assailants-a-fresh-look-at-ois-subtleties/

And that's for LEOs in the line of duty. Haven't read the Ayoob article but I don't think the number of shots fired has much correlation with how many it actually might take in any given shooting.

glocknbruce
10-04-2010, 17:44
Wow, and it only took 9, eh?

well, you gotta' give the bad guy time to fall down!!!!

unit1069
10-04-2010, 17:46
My GoogleFu must be on the fritz. I'm trying to find some reliable comparisons between the +P and non +P cartridges of Speer's 9mm 124gr GDHP. I know that the +P variety is given the thumbs up on Gary Robert's "approved" list but have no idea how the non +P variety performs in various gelatin tests. I have been having a tough time locating the +P for sale and would like to see how the standard pressure load fares in the same tests, both in short and standard length barrels.

I really don't see the need to load +P or +P+ ammo for self-defense. I've always thought that if standard pressure ammo isn't sufficient then I'm relying on the wrong caliber.

I do admit to carrying 124-grain Golden Saber +P in one pistol I have but that's because it has the best shooting characteristics of any round I've yet tried out in that particular pistol, not because of any extra power it might have.

ATK has a long video where the company test compares their 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP rounds through both calibrated gel and windshields and it's well worth watching. It's convinced me to buy some standard pressure 124-grain Gold Dots when I find them in the 50-round boxes. The numbers between standard pressure and +P are close enough to be practically meaningless. Gold Dots, HST, Tactical Bonded are all included on the video. The video is somewhere here on Glock Talk.

cowboy1964
10-04-2010, 18:01
I really don't see the need to load +P or +P+ ammo for self-defense. I've always thought that if standard pressure ammo isn't sufficient then I'm relying on the wrong caliber.

Why not eek the maximum performance possible out of a given caliber? Given two identical bullet weights, if one is 100 fps faster and all other things are equal, wouldn't you go with the faster one? I would.

The thing about Gold Dot's in particular (the only JHP's in +P that I have experience with) is there is little to no difference in recoil between 124gr and 124gr +P. I'll take the extra velocity.

Ajon412
10-04-2010, 18:03
I posted this response a while back on another thread, but I think it's relevant here: :wavey:

There was a recent NYPD shooting in the Bronx ( Aug 2010) where a perp was shot 23 times with 9mm Speer 124 +P GDHP rounds and survived. Conversely, a Brooklyn copper a few years back shot an killed a perp with (1) round to the chest (same ammo) after the perp attacked the officer with chair. I tend to think shot placement has more to do with it than caliber. Just my .02....

mastrbloata
10-04-2010, 18:27
I posted this response a while back on another thread, but I think it's relevant here: :wavey:

There was a recent NYPD shooting in the Bronx ( Aug 2010) where a perp was shot 23 times with 9mm Speer 124 +P GDHP rounds and survived. Conversely, a Brooklyn copper a few years back shot an killed a perp with (1) round to the chest (same ammo) after the perp attacked the officer with chair. I tend to think shot placement has more to do with it than caliber. Just my .02....

Wow, and it only took 23, eh?

1smoothredneck
10-04-2010, 18:44
well, you gotta' give the bad guy time to fall down!!!!
+1. Shooter was a musician, and had been well trained by his brother in pistol shooting. I can shoot pretty fast when I'm scared, and I'm NOT a musician. Maybe his skilled fingers are faster than most; Mas gives his take on the number of shots, and it jives with ours. Guy fires fast, stops firing when threat is stopped, and BG absorbs several rounds on the way to the ground.
I'd like to thank Mr. Ayoob for his work in bringing these articles to us over the years.
I think I'd still go with the +p, though.:whistling:

DocCasualty
10-04-2010, 20:03
I really don't see the need to load +P or +P+ ammo for self-defense. I've always thought that if standard pressure ammo isn't sufficient then I'm relying on the wrong caliber.
I think the key is finding which ammo within the caliber is sufficient. That's why I was curious to know how the standard pressure version performed. I found some more corroborating data over on m4carbine.net that there is a slight advantage to the +P flavor but the standard 124 gr in its current configuration is not lacking at all. I ordered some of it to try it out. If and when I can get the +P version, I'll probably try that out too and see how they compare in my 9's.
ATK has a long video where the company test compares their 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP rounds through both calibrated gel and windshields and it's well worth watching. It's convinced me to buy some standard pressure 124-grain Gold Dots when I find them in the 50-round boxes. The numbers between standard pressure and +P are close enough to be practically meaningless. Gold Dots, HST, Tactical Bonded are all included on the video. The video is somewhere here on Glock Talk.I'd be interested in seeing it. Anybody got a link? Not only are the numbers between the 124 gr GDs close, there performance appears close as well.

DocCasualty
10-04-2010, 20:06
I tend to think shot placement has more to do with it than caliber. Just my .02....

I think you're correct. I really had no interest in starting another caliber war. Heck, I wasn't planning on engaging in a terminal ballistics discussion either, but at least that could conceivably be linked to my original question.

I do appreciate everybodys' input.

Glockbuster
10-04-2010, 22:24
Why not move a little closer to 357 sig performance using the +P load instead of standard pressure ?

Ajon412
10-04-2010, 22:31
I think the key is finding which ammo within the caliber is sufficient. That's why I was curious to know how the standard pressure version performed. I found some more corroborating data over on m4carbine.net that there is a slight advantage to the +P flavor but the standard 124 gr in its current configuration is not lacking at all. I ordered some of it to try it out. If and when I can get the +P version, I'll probably try that out too and see how they compare in my 9's.
I'd be interested in seeing it. Anybody got a link? Not only are the numbers between the 124 gr GDs close, there performance appears close as well.

Try this:

http://le.atk.com/general/irl/videos.aspx

Ajon412
10-04-2010, 22:37
I think you're correct. I really had no interest in starting another caliber war. Heck, I wasn't planning on engaging in a terminal ballistics discussion either, but at least that could conceivably be linked to my original question.

I do appreciate everybodys' input.

I believe the NYPD are still using Speer 124 +P GDHP and the New Jersey State PD are still using Speer 124 GDHP as duty rounds. Maybe you could do some research on the results of some actual shootings by these agencies. The way I look at it is if it's good enough (street tested) for them, it's good enough for me. Again, just my .02.....:wavey:

Ajon412
10-04-2010, 22:39
Wow, and it only took 23, eh?

BTW, very funny....:rofl::rofl:

unit1069
10-05-2010, 17:29
Why not eek the maximum performance possible out of a given caliber?

If the ballistic results were marginal to begin with I'd agree but ATK's own tests give 124-grain HST as 13.50" penetration and .66" expansion while the 124-grain +P HST is given at 14.00" penetration and .60" expansion. I'd ask, "Why put the added stress of +P on the weapon when either round performs so well"?

Given two identical bullet weights, if one is 100 fps faster and all other things are equal, wouldn't you go with the faster one? I would.

That's a reasonable choice and one I won't quibble with. Also, I won't quibble with anyone who chooses the standard pressure HST over the +P version.

The thing about Gold Dot's in particular (the only JHP's in +P that I have experience with) is there is little to no difference in recoil between 124gr and 124gr +P. I'll take the extra velocity.

I'd buy and carry either one if one or both had better shooting characteristics than my current Golden Saber carry round. I'll try to find both available at the same time and try them out. Nobody has to sell me on Gold Dot; I have Double Tap Gold Dots loaded in my .357sig.

DocCasualty
10-05-2010, 19:55
I'd buy and carry either one if one or both had better shooting characteristics than my current Golden Saber carry round.

That makes all the sense in the world to me.

I used to be enamored with muzzle velocity for any given round, especially with 9mm. That's why I got on board years ago (like 15+ years ago) with CorBon 115gr +P JHP. I've been "out of the loop" for awhile and now that I've been reevaluating my SD/HD choices, I'm changing to what I believe is the better way to assess these choices, instead of velocity/energy figures and hype. I guess I have understood the basis of how terminal ballistics really works since I read LaGarde's Gunshot Injuries with Fackler's forward nearly that long ago but now am embracing the tools that are much more readily available on WWW. In that vein, what meets penetration and expansion criteria is way more important than speed/energy and hype, though I fully appreciate that in most civilian SD situations (as rare as they are) almost any round fired will probably get the job done. But why not use a cartridge that is recognized to get the job done?

I fully appreciate choosing what shoots well for you with your current pistol(s). I'm looking forward to testing out some of what should be better choices for me. Looking at the data, I don't see much difference between these two Gold Dot offerings. How accurate these rounds are for me and how well my pistols handle them remains to be seen. I may end up looking elsewhere.

I do have a question to ask you, unit1069. Has Remington updated their Golden Saber bullets? Maybe the better question is, how do they perform with standardized testing for penetration, expansion and and weight retention? Any posted results would be appreciated. One of the reasons I ask is that my choice years ago (and still has been) for .45acp was Rem GS 230gr JHP. I tried out different rounds and this on stood out for accuracy out of my P220, which has handled anything I've fed it. I've read loose talk on the net that GS is an "outdated" round and have no idea how it stacks up with FBI tests or if their bullet design has been updated. Honestly, this is another situation where I wouldn't feel "undergunned" if I never changed my choice here but as I stated above, maybe it's time to reevaluate this choice and update it with the best info available.

cowboy1964
10-05-2010, 20:51
Unless you're firing thousands of +P rounds I don't think your Glock will get battered up. Even then maybe not.

DocCasualty
10-05-2010, 21:01
Unless you're firing thousands of +P rounds I don't think your Glock will get battered up. Even then maybe not.

Hard to argue with that, though I'm the kind of guy who doesn't like to test the null hypothesis. I'm not even ashamed that I clean my G26 every time I shoot it!

Snowman92D
10-06-2010, 04:43
But why not use a cartridge that is recognized to get the job done?

True enough, but the question is: Recognized to get the job done...by whom?

DocCasualty
10-06-2010, 05:56
True enough, but the question is: Recognized to get the job done...by whom?

By me, of course!:wink:

What I truly mean is those rounds which meet FBI criteria. That is the standard I have chosen to follow. Some think ballistic gel testing is flawed and it might be, but it appears to be the best standardized testing we have to date.

M&P Shooter
10-06-2010, 15:38
Read this months "American Handgunner", The Ayoob Files is abut a CCW'er who put 9 standard pressure gold-dots into a thug..........he died very quickly
http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab89/Glock40guy/45acp-1.jpg

glocknbruce
10-06-2010, 16:34
+1. Shooter was a musician, and had been well trained by his brother in pistol shooting. I can shoot pretty fast when I'm scared, and I'm NOT a musician. Maybe his skilled fingers are faster than most; Mas gives his take on the number of shots, and it jives with ours. Guy fires fast, stops firing when threat is stopped, and BG absorbs several rounds on the way to the ground.
I'd like to thank Mr. Ayoob for his work in bringing these articles to us over the years.
I think I'd still go with the +p, though.:whistling:

same here, i would rather have +p....but for me personally i carry the 127 +p+ Ranger in my 26:cool:

novaDAK
10-13-2010, 22:53
My GoogleFu must be on the fritz. I'm trying to find some reliable comparisons between the +P and non +P cartridges of Speer's 9mm 124gr GDHP. I know that the +P variety is given the thumbs up on Gary Robert's "approved" list but have no idea how the non +P variety performs in various gelatin tests. I have been having a tough time locating the +P for sale and would like to see how the standard pressure load fares in the same tests, both in short and standard length barrels.

Dr. Robert's "approved" list doesn't show the standard pressure 124gr Gold Dot but in the section discussing barrel length it is said that 124gr standard pressure Gold Dots are fine out of a 4" or longer barrel.

"BARREL LENGTH plays a role in this as well. While +P loadings may not be required in most cases, they can compensate for short barrels and the resulting loss in muzzle velocity. For example: In 9mm, the 124gr Gold Dot is a good choice in barrel lengths of 4" or more. In compact guns of 3.5" or less, a higher-velocity loading would be advised."

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#BARREL%20LENGTH

BOGE
10-14-2010, 00:43
Dr. Robert's "approved" list doesn't show the standard pressure 124gr Gold Dot but in the section discussing barrel length it is said that 124gr standard pressure Gold Dots are fine out of a 4" or longer barrel...


His list is BS IMO. He doesn`t have any data base with real world shootings to back his conclusions. It`s all ``gello man`` hypothesis. Ballistic gel is a decent barometer, but a barometer alone can`t tell you what the weather will be.

Glockbuster
10-14-2010, 08:10
Trust the +P all the way.

cowboy1964
10-14-2010, 08:35
+P for me simply because recoil is virtually the same. If recoil was more to the point where it affected shootability then that might be another matter, but it's not.

unit1069
10-14-2010, 20:29
I do have a question to ask you, unit1069. Has Remington updated their Golden Saber bullets? Maybe the better question is, how do they perform with standardized testing for penetration, expansion and and weight retention?

Remington has come out with a new premium self-defense round that as far as I can tell is the exact same round as their Golden Saber. But you get the privilege of paying about $6 more for the new box.

I don't have any test results to link but as far as I remember Golden Saber rounds achieve the FBI minimum penetration depths with good expansion. However the standard GS rounds have a reputation for shedding the brass jacket, but some Glock Talk members say that's not a major concern at all. The bonded GS round appears to have a very good reputation and when I can find some 124-grain bonded I plan on buying some. I see 147-grain available from a couple of sources but I prefer the lighter weight in 9mm.

cowboy1964
10-14-2010, 20:57
I've been looking for 124/124+P bonded Golden Sabres for a few weeks, have found nothing.

DocCasualty
10-14-2010, 21:16
I appreciate your response, unit1069. The jacket shedding was the negative issue I had heard of also with the GS. As I think I stated before, I'm not sure how important any of these "issues" are for most of us utilizing these rounds for personal protection, in contrast to dedicated LEOs, but I'm in the process of accepting that standard anyway.

I shot off the last of my old school .45acp Rem GS 230gr and +P 185gr rounds yesterday at the range. So far I'm likin' the Win PDX1 230gr with my P220. Also fired some Speer .45 200gr +P GDHP which were snappy but not sure I like what I've read about their terminal ballistic performance so far. Will continue to evaluate and still want to try the 230gr GDHP and Win Ranger-T's as well.

Similarly I fired the 9mm Speer 124gr GDHP (standard pressure) in the G26 yesterday and that went fine. Going to try the +Ps and try the Wins here too and make some final decisions.

Thanks for the input!

BOGE
10-14-2010, 22:47
...Also fired some Speer .45 200gr +P GDHP which were snappy but not sure I like what I've read about their terminal ballistic performance so far...

Huh? Gold Dots are a winner pure & simple. There are a helluva lot dead people that will attest to this.

buster hyman
10-15-2010, 18:19
My personal favorite :supergrin:

John Biltz
10-16-2010, 15:17
My GoogleFu must be on the fritz. I'm trying to find some reliable comparisons between the +P and non +P cartridges of Speer's 9mm 124gr GDHP. I know that the +P variety is given the thumbs up on Gary Robert's "approved" list but have no idea how the non +P variety performs in various gelatin tests. I have been having a tough time locating the +P for sale and would like to see how the standard pressure load fares in the same tests, both in short and standard length barrels.
If you are still looking to buy some:
http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/pistol-ammunition/9mm-9x19?page=3
scroll down the page to the bottom. $24.95 for a box of 50. $229.50 for 500 rounds for either the +P or standard. I just bought some last week. Good company, fast delivery.