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Hound_dogs_01
10-10-2010, 11:49
I am loading .45 ACP for my Rock Island 1911 FS-Match. I am loading 200 grain semi-wad cutter lead. I am casting my own bullets with an RCBS 45-201-SWC ( http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=187705 ) mold. I am using 5.0 grains of 231 and winchester primers. Brass is mixed. I am having a problem with the gun cycling. When I shoot it the gun lacks about a 1/4 inch of going into full lock up. I can push on the back of the slide and the round will chamber and fire. It does this atleast 3 times per 8 round clip. My OAL I am using is 1.235. I am leaving the shoulder of the bullet about 10 thousandths above the case.


Any ideas of what it could be?


Alex

Hound_dogs_01
10-10-2010, 12:00
oh and the empty casings I have check out at .85 inches.


Alex

GioaJack
10-10-2010, 12:09
Tighten your crimp a bit, should fix you right up.


Jack

alwaysshootin
10-10-2010, 13:03
Tighten your crimp a bit, should fix you right up.


Jack

Good suggestion, would like to add, when a round hangs up, pull it back out of the chamber to see if your bullet has a mark on it, as though it is catching on the feed ramp. Also, are your rounds free of lube on the exterior? That can stop or slow down the slide enough to not chamber completely. Just a couple of things that came to mind.

VN350X10
10-10-2010, 13:19
What are you using for a sizing die ? If it's not going in fully, the base might be just a tad out of spec.
ALSO, you say the brass is mixed, is it the SAME headstamp screwing up ?
Is it A-Merc brass by any chance ? THAT crap needs to be culled from your brass mix, as it is absolute GARBAGE.
Some of the other stuff you might have a problem with is S&B, some lots load & function perfectly, others are not so good. I rather suspect their QC.

uncle albert

CitizenOfDreams
10-10-2010, 13:50
Do your rounds fit freely in the chamber? Do you have a case gauge (you should)?

n2extrm
10-10-2010, 14:03
Tighten your crimp a bit, should fix you right up.


Jack

This usually the culprit.

Hound_dogs_01
10-10-2010, 14:41
This usually the culprit.


Im not using a crimp. Should I bust out and buy the taper crimp die or factory crimp die? I'm not sure which one I need. Im not sure which head stamp is screwing up but I've just been shoving them in and shooting. If I do take it out put it back in the mag it doesnt jam on that one.

I personally dont think its a gun thing but more the ammo.

Also take the barrel out and the rounds fit flush with the top of the barrel.

Jack, would chamfering the cases on the out side help me any? or you think it's the crimp?

Alex

Hound_dogs_01
10-10-2010, 15:10
Do your rounds fit freely in the chamber? Do you have a case gauge (you should)?

My case guage is my barrel....


Alex

n2extrm
10-10-2010, 15:11
You just need a slight taper crimp to remove any bell from flaring the case.

I don't use the lee FCD. Never had the need. What dies are you using? You most likely are crimping in the seating die, which will work fine if adjusted correctly. You'll have to wait on Jack for that I use a separate crimp die and it would be hard for me to explain the seating and crimping in one. I understand it, I have no problem with it, it is just not my thing.

VN350X10
10-10-2010, 15:12
back to my question....expanded...Who's die set ?

uncle albert

Hound_dogs_01
10-10-2010, 15:17
You just need a slight taper crimp to remove any bell from flaring the case.

I don't use the lee FCD. Never had the need. What dies are you using? You most likely are crimping in the seating die, which will work fine if adjusted correctly. You'll have to wait on Jack for that I use a separate crimp die and it would be hard for me to explain the seating and crimping in one. I understand it, I have no problem with it, it is just not my thing.


is it like seating a bullet and roll crimping in one die foir revolvers?

I believe they're a lee set. I'm not really sure. If I'm not mistaken the seating die doesnt crimp is just makes the case straight again after belling. Right?


Alex

VN350X10
10-10-2010, 15:21
If you're seating & crimping in one die, best to double check your die adjustment.
I always run a VISABLE taper on my 45's.
It's probably no more than .003"-.005" but it can be seen.

uncle albert

Hound_dogs_01
10-10-2010, 15:28
thanks for all the info guys. before I bust out the whopping $20 on a taper crimp die i'll adjust my die now and see what happens.


Alex

VN350X10
10-10-2010, 15:34
most .45ACP die sets are taper crimp, except those that are 45 auto-rim specific (same die, needs different crimp)

uncle albert

fredj338
10-10-2010, 15:36
Im not using a crimp. Should I bust out and buy the taper crimp die or factory crimp die? I'm not sure which one I need. Im not sure which head stamp is screwing up but I've just been shoving them in and shooting. If I do take it out put it back in the mag it doesnt jam on that one.

I personally dont think its a gun thing but more the ammo.

Also take the barrel out and the rounds fit flush with the top of the barrel.

Jack, would chamfering the cases on the out side help me any? or you think it's the crimp?

Alex
Hence the trouble you are having. ALWAYS CRIMP, ALWAYS. I am not sure what reloading "guru" started this ugly rumore about not needing to crimp, but on semiauto rounds, it is the only way to gain reliable feeding, especially when using lead bullets & belling the case mouth.

n2extrm
10-10-2010, 15:37
To over simplify it, back out the seating stem and lower the body of the die an equal amount. The OAL will be the same but the crimp will be tighter. Yes you are removing the bell here, but VN350 said a little more then just flattened out.

The lower the body of the die is in the tool head or press the more crimp you will have. You can have too much don't over do it.

RustyFN
10-10-2010, 15:47
Like the others said, very light crimp. You can crimp in the seating die.

I personally dont think its a gun thing but more the ammo.

I agree. I have a RIA 1911 and can't believe how nice it is and how good it shoots for the price.

GioaJack
10-10-2010, 16:03
Quit being a wussie, crimp that thing like stomping on a June Bug with a pair of Doc Martins and go shoot. The worst that's going to happen is the extractor is going to hold headspace for the round.

(How's that for sensitive loading advice... I should'a been a politician. :whistling:)


Jack

VN350X10
10-10-2010, 16:04
looks like Jack's heart is back where it belongs.....:whistling:

Hound_dogs_01
10-10-2010, 18:00
I knwo how to set the seater crimper dies up. This aint my first rodeo.... F it im buying a taper crimp seater die.


Alex

Hound_dogs_01
10-10-2010, 18:00
Jack, Check your PM's my good man!


Alex

fredj338
10-10-2010, 19:38
I knwo how to set the seater crimper dies up. This aint my first rodeo.... F it im buying a taper crimp seater die.


Alex
If you are reloading 45acp, your seating dies comes w/ a TC in it, no need to buy anything, just adjust it & go.

KB2MBC
10-10-2010, 19:45
oh and the empty casings I have check out at .85 inches.


Alex
You better check out the proper case length, .85 is WAAAAAY too short!
It should be .898 inches.

Hound_dogs_01
10-10-2010, 20:11
You better check out the proper case length, .85 is WAAAAAY too short!
It should be .898 inches.


HMMMM I measured wrong.

But if they were short they wouldnt hang up and wouldnt fire because theyd be sitting too deep in the chamber.


Alex

Hound_dogs_01
10-10-2010, 20:14
If you are reloading 45acp, your seating dies comes w/ a TC in it, no need to buy anything, just adjust it & go.


I think this is the answer I was looking for.....

Thanks Fredj.


Alex

VN350X10
10-10-2010, 20:32
Don't believe that a .45 headspaces on the case mouth in a 1911.....the exttractor holds it against the breech face.
Brand neew brass isn't the full length !
If you think I'm kidding, buy a box of factory(OUCH!) pull a couple of bullets, & measure the case length. Brass don't get any newer than that !

uncle albert

Hound_dogs_01
10-10-2010, 20:42
Don't believe that a .45 headspaces on the case mouth in a 1911.....the exttractor holds it against the breech face.
Brand neew brass isn't the full length !
If you think I'm kidding, buy a box of factory(OUCH!) pull a couple of bullets, & measure the case length. Brass don't get any newer than that !

uncle albert


It has a shoulder inside the chamber that stops on the case mouth. But it may also be the extracer that holds it in.


I dont think my 1911 has seen one round of factory loaded ammo. Hell its never seen a jacketed bullet.

Alex

fredj338
10-10-2010, 20:52
Don't believe that a .45 headspaces on the case mouth in a 1911.....the exttractor holds it against the breech face.
Brand neew brass isn't the full length !
If you think I'm kidding, buy a box of factory(OUCH!) pull a couple of bullets, & measure the case length. Brass don't get any newer than that !

uncle albert

All rimless pistol rounds headspace off the case mouth. The fact that most are held in place by the extractor is nice, but over crimp, you are likely to have a round seat too deeply w/ an extractor tha has a little wear. There are min & max SAAMI specs for chamber dims. Go against that & eventually it bites you.

dudel
10-11-2010, 05:14
Don't believe that a .45 headspaces on the case mouth in a 1911.....the exttractor holds it against the breech face.
Brand neew brass isn't the full length !
If you think I'm kidding, buy a box of factory(OUCH!) pull a couple of bullets, & measure the case length. Brass don't get any newer than that !

uncle albert

Well, if that were true,then try this experiment.

Pull the extractor out and load a round. Pull the trigger, and the round fires. It won't extract; but it will fire because the case mouth is against the lip in the chamber.

The fact that the extractor is on the rim is that it's ready for the extraction step, not the firing process.

I wouldn't want to count on a loose extractor to hold the case against the breechface.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?magid=71&tocid=970

KB2MBC
10-11-2010, 06:16
Your factory recoil spring may be too much for such a light load.
Factory springs are typically 16lbs. Might want to try 13-14lb. spring.

Hound_dogs_01
10-11-2010, 08:31
Your factory recoil spring may be too much for such a light load.
Factory springs are typically 16lbs. Might want to try 13-14lb. spring.


It shot about 500 rounds perfectly before. Never one malfunction. So I dont think its the spring. I personally think it was because I didnt have enough crimp on it.


Alex

Zombie Steve
10-11-2010, 12:28
I am loading .45 ACP for my Rock Island 1911 FS-Match. I am loading 200 grain semi-wad cutter lead. I am casting my own bullets with an RCBS 45-201-SWC ( http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=187705 ) mold. I am using 5.0 grains of 231 and winchester primers. Brass is mixed. I am having a problem with the gun cycling. When I shoot it the gun lacks about a 1/4 inch of going into full lock up. I can push on the back of the slide and the round will chamber and fire. It does this atleast 3 times per 8 round clip. My OAL I am using is 1.235. I am leaving the shoulder of the bullet about 10 thousandths above the case.


Any ideas of what it could be?


Alex

I agree on the taper crimp. I'm not in front of my data, but I'm thinking that's a pretty long OAL for a semi wadcutter. You might try to work some up at 1.200. When I get home, I'll look up what I do. I've shot 200 grainers that I bought that worked ok a little longer, but the profile of the ones I cast with Jack need to be seated deeper.

:dunno:

fredj338
10-11-2010, 12:57
I agree on the taper crimp. I'm not in front of my data, but I'm thinking that's a pretty long OAL for a semi wadcutter. You might try to work some up at 1.200. When I get home, I'll look up what I do. I've shot 200 grainers that I bought that worked ok a little longer, but the profile of the ones I cast with Jack need to be seated deeper.

:dunno:
If I remember right, the RCBS 200grLSWC has a short nose, that OAL may work. My own cast 200grLSWC are the H&G style, longer nose, & they seat around 1.250"-1.255". It just depends.:dunno:

PCJim
10-11-2010, 13:05
I seat LSWCs to where there is roughly the thickness of a fingernail of the bullet's straight side wall showing above the case mouth. While I don't often shoot the 45acp, I've never had a problem with LSWCs seated in this manner.

fredj338
10-11-2010, 13:10
I seat LSWCs to where there is roughly the thickness of a fingernail of the bullet's straight side wall showing above the case mouth. While I don't often shoot the 45acp, I've never had a problem with LSWCs seated in this manner.
That is correct, about 0.03"-0.04" of shoulder showing works in most 45acps. The Glock & XD seem to have issues, altthough I was able to get 200grLSWC to run perfectly in a Gen2 G21. The sharper the shoulder the less likely you'll get 200grSWC to run in them.

Hound_dogs_01
10-11-2010, 13:21
I seat LSWCs to where there is roughly the thickness of a fingernail of the bullet's straight side wall showing above the case mouth. While I don't often shoot the 45acp, I've never had a problem with LSWCs seated in this manner.


This is how I was loading them as well.



Alex

KB2MBC
10-11-2010, 13:58
It shot about 500 rounds perfectly before. Never one malfunction. So I dont think its the spring. I personally think it was because I didnt have enough crimp on it.


Alex

My bad, didn't read thoroughly. Thinking it wasn't going all the way back rather than into battery.

wilkersk
10-11-2010, 14:08
Even before you go out and spend any more money, do this:

Field strip your pistol and with the barrel in 1 hand (muzzle down) put one of your loaded rounds into the chamber. Does it drop freely all the way in and demonstrate correct head spacing? If not, then try tightenting your crimp a tiny bit at a time until it does.

You don't say what kind of dies you are using. But if you're using modern carbide pistol dies, your seating die probably has a crimp built in. Whether you taper or roll (you want taper for your .45acp) depends on how its set up. Check the info that came with your dies.

If you're using dies intended for a 4 die set up, then you may want to look into one of those "factory crimp" dies that Lee sells. I hear they're the bee's knees.

http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/45seatingpossibilitiesxn.jpg

tac_driver
10-11-2010, 14:22
I run my 45ACP 200gr LSWC through my StormLake barrel at 1.250 and crimp to .468 in my Glock 21SF 3rd Gen, Colt Govt. Combat, Taurus PT-1911. The bullets are from Midstates Cast Bullet Company.
I Never came across any feed or jamming problems using these rounds. Probably shot over 5000 rounds. Most of them were loaded on a Dillon 550 and some were loaded on a LCT with LFCD.

Hound_dogs_01
10-11-2010, 16:37
My buddy i load with found his taper crimp seater die. So i am going to give this a run in the morning. Ill let you guys know how turns out.


Alex

VN350X10
10-11-2010, 17:29
dudel, you're correct about a LOOSE extractor, but one that is properly tensioned & tuned is a whole 'nuther ballgame.

uncle albert
(no flame, no argument, just a bit of fact)

dudel
10-11-2010, 17:34
dudel, you're correct about a LOOSE extractor, but one that is properly tensioned & tuned is a whole 'nuther ballgame.

uncle albert
(no flame, no argument, just a bit of fact)

I'll grant you that. However, it's rare to fine a properly tensioned and tuned extractor! :supergrin: Most of the ones I've seen tend to be loose and sloppy (and worn and chipped and etc).

Even more so if they are doing the work of keeping the head against the breechface, which wasn't part of their design. Their design purpose was to pull the brass back to hit against the ejector and toss the brass out. But then, I'm preaching to the choir.

VN350X10
10-11-2010, 20:35
Check out the guys shooting Single-Stack or L-10 with a 1911, you'll find a LOT more properly fitted extractors than not in that group. Short brass be damned !


uncle albert

dudel
10-12-2010, 16:59
Check out the guys shooting Single-Stack or L-10 with a 1911, you'll find a LOT more properly fitted extractors than not in that group. Short brass be damned !


uncle albert

I expect so. Those guys are sharp. I'll wager they work up their loads carefully as well. Probably have their brass at the proper length. Short brass doesn't really help accuracy.

Hound_dogs_01
10-13-2010, 08:23
Ok well The taper crimping didnt work. I loaded some empty cases into my clip and everyone of them fed in my gun with out a hitch.

Should I drop my OAL and seat the 200gr SWCL all the way down on the shoulder of the bullet? I found the minimum OAL for 45 ACP is 1.175" and max is 1.235". I am running an OAL of 1.234" now, i think I am going to drop the OAL is 1.200" and see how that works.

I'm open to all ideas.

Alex

fredj338
10-13-2010, 10:02
Ok well The taper crimping didnt work. I loaded some empty cases into my clip and everyone of them fed in my gun with out a hitch.

Should I drop my OAL and seat the 200gr SWCL all the way down on the shoulder of the bullet? I found the minimum OAL for 45 ACP is 1.175" and max is 1.235". I am running an OAL of 1.234" now, i think I am going to drop the OAL is 1.200" and see how that works.

I'm open to all ideas.

Alex
Are you sizing the bullets to 0.452" or shooting them as cast? Measure the bullet dia, if it's larger than 0.452", that could very well be the issue. There is no minimum OAL, OAL is bullet specific. The bullet shoulder could be wedging into the rifling right at the chamber throat. My XD has a very short throat & I have to watch the OAL w/ bullets that have shoulders (LSWC & TC).
I don't think taper crimping an empty case tells me anything about case fit. The bullet needs to be in there to determine OA diameter. If the bullet is sized to 0.452" & you are giving it a good TC, then look at shortening your OAL, 0.01"-0.02". That will not push pressures up much if at all in the 45acp case.

Hound_dogs_01
10-13-2010, 13:10
Are you sizing the bullets to 0.452" or shooting them as cast? Measure the bullet dia, if it's larger than 0.452", that could very well be the issue. There is no minimum OAL, OAL is bullet specific. The bullet shoulder could be wedging into the rifling right at the chamber throat. My XD has a very short throat & I have to watch the OAL w/ bullets that have shoulders (LSWC & TC).
I don't think taper crimping an empty case tells me anything about case fit. The bullet needs to be in there to determine OA diameter. If the bullet is sized to 0.452" & you are giving it a good TC, then look at shortening your OAL, 0.01"-0.02". That will not push pressures up much if at all in the 45acp case.


Yes I am sizing them to 0.452" with my star luber sizer. I think my chamber in my gun was cut a bit short. I took some empty hulls that all i did was de-prime and size, put them in the magazine to see if the gun would feed them. It would infact feed the cases perfect so I dont think it is a sizing problem. I am going to set the OAL at 1.200" and crimp the hell out of em and see how that works.


If that doesnt work my next plan of attack is to bump my powder charge up to 5.5grs of W231.

Then if that doesn't work I'm going to switch to unique since its got a little more balls to it.

Thanks for all the help.

Alex

fredj338
10-13-2010, 14:49
Yes I am sizing them to 0.452" with my star luber sizer. I think my chamber in my gun was cut a bit short. I took some empty hulls that all i did was de-prime and size, put them in the magazine to see if the gun would feed them. It would infact feed the cases perfect so I dont think it is a sizing problem. I am going to set the OAL at 1.200" and crimp the hell out of em and see how that works.


If that doesnt work my next plan of attack is to bump my powder charge up to 5.5grs of W231.

Then if that doesn't work I'm going to switch to unique since its got a little more balls to it.

Thanks for all the help.

Alex
It could be short, but bumping the powder charge, how does that help the slide go into battery? If it doesn't feed by hand, it isn't likely to feed loaded rounds. Are you trying the loaded rounds in your removed bbl? How do they fit?

Hound_dogs_01
10-13-2010, 16:37
It could be short, but bumping the powder charge, how does that help the slide go into battery? If it doesn't feed by hand, it isn't likely to feed loaded rounds. Are you trying the loaded rounds in your removed bbl? How do they fit?

I am not removing my berrel bit outing them in the mag and feeding them in. The ones we spot check always go into battery. Yet when we get to the rangebit" jams". Bumping the powder charge wilalezl work the slide harder and mabe slam it into battery harder, right?




Alex

dudel
10-13-2010, 16:45
Bumping the powder charge wilalezl work the slide harder and mabe slam it into battery harder, right?

Alex

Huh? Once it hits the stop, it's the spring that brings it back. Making it slam back harder is not going to make it spring forward faster. It will just beat up the slide.

Does it go to battery each and every time with no round in the chamber? With out with out the mag? If so, it's the round. If it's not going to battery with an empty chamber, you've got a problem with the gun.

Hound_dogs_01
10-13-2010, 19:00
It goes into battery with out rounds everytime i hit the slide release.


Alex

fredj338
10-13-2010, 20:02
I am not removing my berrel bit outing them in the mag and feeding them in. The ones we spot check always go into battery. Yet when we get to the rangebit" jams". Bumping the powder charge wilalezl work the slide harder and mabe slam it into battery harder, right?


Alex
Remove the bbl, use it as a gage. A properly fitting round will fall in & out w/ little effort. No, the slide returns at what ever rate the spring allows it. So adding powder isn't the answer. You need to get your load setup correctly to feed properly. I will tell you that 5gr of W231 under a 200grLSWC is a light load, but that isn't the "failure" you are describing.:dunno: Go back to post #39, that is what you are looking for in setting up your dies to get the load right. I would work w/ dummy rounds, no powder, play w/ the seating & crimp until you get the correct fit.

Hound_dogs_01
10-17-2010, 10:25
So when i loaded the rounds to 1.200" abs taper cfimped over the shoulder of the bullet they fed 100% reliable. Thanks for all the help guys!! You guys are awesome!!!



Alex

dudel
10-17-2010, 16:32
So when i loaded the rounds to 1.200" abs taper cfimped over the shoulder of the bullet they fed 100% reliable. Thanks for all the help guys!! You guys are awesome!!!



Alex

Great! Glad it working out for you. A day with a lesson learned is a good day.

You might try a bit less taper. Even though the Lyman book shows the taper crimp going over the shoulder of the projectile, you really only need enough taper crimp to remove all the flare and allow the round to fully seat in the chamber.

Glock21sf-miami
10-17-2010, 20:29
I don't see anybody mentioning that you may be on a mid load with 5.0 grs of 231. If you have any type of aftermarket guide rod and spring that is stronger than factory, your gun may not cycle the slide reliably. Depending on the bullet, your OAL may also be a bit long.

I load a Montana Gold JFP with 5.0 grs of WST and an OAL of 1.21" and it is my go to load. Just finished 200 for my next range visit with the G30... I used the barrel of my G30 and G36 as a gauge for a long time to make sure my rounds were consistent... Now I feel that range ammo may not need so much function testing since it will be for practice.