What to carry for Black bear? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Slug71
10-10-2010, 20:46
Well first off im not sure if this is the right place for this thread and apologise if it isnt.
I will be picking up my G27(.40S&W) this week which will be my CCW. I live in a area where there is lots of Black bear and though its unlikely that i will need it on one, at least i hope, just wondering what rounds i should carry. JHP vs FMJ and lighter vs heavier grain?
Now i know i'd be better off if i had a .44mag or 10mm or...., but i dont and chances are i wouldnt be carrying one of those when i ran into one anyway.

Thanks in advance guys.

fredj338
10-10-2010, 20:50
Bear spray! If you have to carry your 40, then FMJ or DT LFP are realyl your only option. Bear spray will be a beeter deterent.

CanyonMan
10-10-2010, 21:18
A minimum of 44mag. I do not trust at all, a 40 S&W or 10mm for bear period. I have done this for almost 40 + years and although If you stuff your 10mm with 200gr + hardcast bullets, that is ok, but if you are really concerned about a bear attack, (and you should not be that concerned), then take a 44mag or a rifle. Not a 40 S&W G27 !

I pack on the ranch EDC, or in the high country, a 45LC 300gr Hard cast bullet. This covers my six from cougars to bear to illegal border crossers. haha. This country demands tremendous penetration. Do not short change yourself with a service calier for something that wants to eat you or kill you.

I do admit, I often throw a 10mm G20 in the saddle bags with extra mags, all loaded with my own 200gr Hard Cast bullets. in case I need some extra fire power, and 45-70 lever gun or 7mm rem mag. The AR and or the SKS (made to auto) handle the rest here on the ranch 'the latter two not for bear'. :supergrin:

But back to you and bears. If you just "have to pack a 10mm" at leat stoke it (if you do not handload) with Buffalo bore ammo (hard cast) or better yet get a Ruger 4 5/8" 44mag and learn to to pack it.... Not a G27 40 cal. Sorry.

Last: do not be that concrned about bear attacks. They can happen but usually have a reason, and if you are woods savvy you probably will never have an encounter. I know this may not be what you wanted to hear, but you did ask. ;) Do NOT rely upon a 40 S&W for your concerns......


Good luck





CM

fredj338
10-10-2010, 22:50
But back to you and bears. If you just "have to pack a 10mm" at leat stoke it (if you do not handload) with Buffalo bore ammo (hard cast) or better yet get a Ruger 4 5/8" 44mag and learn to to pack it.... Not a G27 40 cal. Sorry.

Last: do not be that concrned about bear attacks. They can happen but usually have a reason, and if you are woods savvy you probably will never have an encounter. I know this may not be what you wanted to hear, but you did ask. ;) Do NOT rely upon a 40 S&W for your concerns......


Good luck


CM
Really Gary, I was going to go their, but I thought I would be seen as being abrasive again by stating the obvious, plus he did say it was all he had. Bear spray backed by a 40 w/ hardcast is better than bear spray alone. Not MY choice, like you, I know bear guns start @ the 41mag & just get bigger, but the chamnce the bear spray doesn't work, climb a tree & shoot for the head.:supergrin:

FatBoy
10-10-2010, 22:57
This topic comes up all the time. I never would have thought so many people would be worrying about black bears and thinking a 9mm, .40, or .45acp would be an option.

.44mag is my minimum recommended/comfort round, but a full load .357mag or 10mm would do in a pinch I guess.

So either .44mag>bear spray> or a zucchini if ones handy :~)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100923/ap_on_fe_st/us_odd_bear_attack_zucchini_1

FB

M1A Shooter
10-10-2010, 23:44
my family members up in maine all carry 12ga shotguns when they go out in the woods for the bears or moose. they didnt always carry until they buried a draft horse and found it dug up and dragged away less than a week later.

Ak.Hiker
10-11-2010, 00:21
If you do not have any other handgun to carry in the field test out the Double Tap 200 grain hardcast for function. If it runs good in your Glock 27 carry it. If not the Speer Lawman 180 grain TMJ is a good hot load that will offer deep penetration. The Lawman loads have always run good in my Glocks. If you do a lot of woods walking save up for a 4 inch 44 Magnum. The Taurus Model 44 is a lower cost option and the one I have is a good shooter. The S&W 629 4 inch is a classic woods gun and only weighs 41.5 ounces. The Mountain gun comes in at 39 ounces if you can find one. If you are talking black bear any name brand 240 grain JSP would work.

CanyonMan
10-11-2010, 08:51
Really Gary, I was going to go their, but I thought I would be seen as being abrasive again by stating the obvious, plus he did say it was all he had. Bear spray backed by a 40 w/ hardcast is better than bear spray alone. Not MY choice, like you, I know bear guns start @ the 41mag & just get bigger, but the chamnce the bear spray doesn't work, climb a tree & shoot for the head.:supergrin:


LOL... Well my dear friend, I have been (it seems) 'abrasive' for telling the truth around here lately any way, so I thought I'd tell it again. :supergrin: haha. If all the OP has is a 40, then yes stoke it with heavy flat point FMJ or hard cast, and carry a rifle if he is worried about bears. But, if he can afford a 44mag at least, then by all means get one if he has bruin concerns.

Now, as I exit stage left from here (GT) for what could be a very long season, I wish you and many other amigos well, and please watch your six!

Those who have my email feel free to write anytime. Those who want it, PM me and I'll get it to ya. I've tried this a time or two before, but this time I got to tend to what is set before me to do, and adios off here (GT) at least for a very long season. Things just ain't the same here any more 'to me anyway,' so I need to move on and tend to my own stuff.


God bless ya fred, and all the other old boys on here that I've enjoyed being around the camp fire with, 'y'all are welcome' out here any time.... ;)


Stay safe!
Good shooting !





CanyonMan

Slug71
10-11-2010, 08:59
I know, i should have a .44mag. Thing is i'd be carrying that everyday then. Not really a good ccw choice. They get seeing crossing the roads a lot, walking down the side of roads, at condos getting into dumpsters. Ive seen a couple cross the road running into the yard of a house and there was a house where it came from. I seen them run across the road from where condos are into a trailer park with people outside. At the dumpsters at work. Theres a lot of wooded areas around here and national forest but they get seen plenty where there is development. There are condos up on a hill behind where i stay now and i seen them on the hill and by our cars. Condos are like 250/300ft away. They walk right behind our house. Theyre just very common around here and generally very affraid of people. These arent Grizzly bears. Never heard of an attack around here, generally black bear attacks are very rare anyway as they generally run in the opposite direction when they see people.
I just want to have something rather than nothing if i ever came across a mamma with cubs or feeding. But like i said, you see them pretty often around here and it can be just about anywhere, so chances are that if it happened, id only have my ccw on me.

Thanks for the input though. So FMJ is a better choice than JHP.
What about grain? Heavier or lighter?

Whats DT LFP? I know its Doubletap but didnt see any LFP. Is that the 200gr FMJs?

Slug71
10-11-2010, 09:03
Ok, so its heavy and FMJ, 180gr or 200gr?

jtull7
10-11-2010, 09:13
Another week, another "What Caliber for Bear, Thread Number 178."

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t107/jtull8/jeez.jpg

Slug71
10-11-2010, 09:15
Another week, another "What Caliber for Bear, Thread Number 178."

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t107/jtull8/jeez.jpg

No.., I know what caliber and what pistol. Just not what round.

:tongueout:

CanyonMan
10-11-2010, 09:48
Ok, so its heavy and FMJ, 180gr or 200gr?

I sent ya a PM to go along with what i said to ya in the last post of mine above...

now, adios amigos !
Stay safe.



CM
:patriot:

striker6126
10-11-2010, 10:24
I never knew bears were so hard to kill. We do not have many (if any at all ) in my part of Alabama , but I have killed 6 black bears hunting in other states. All of them were taken with a browning backdraft II set for 60lb draw using 100 grain muzzy broadheads. None of the 6 went over 40 yards after the shot.

Erich1B
10-11-2010, 10:33
Thanks for the input though. So FMJ is a better choice than JHP. What about grain? Heavier or lighter?

Whats DT LFP? I know its Doubletap but didnt see any LFP. Is that the 200gr FMJs?

If you are only going to have the .40, then IMHO I'd go heavier over lighter bullet.

Here is another boutique ammo maker (40 S&W Auto
200gr Hornady JFP Jacketed Flat Point Bullets): http://www.swampfoxgunworks.com/swampfox/product.php?productid=17539&cat=291&page=1

1100fps 530 ft/lbs energy@ Muzzle. From a Stock Glock 22.

I've used his 10mm ammo, and no problems.

MURRAY
10-11-2010, 10:41
I use a model 28 with 200 grain hardcast DT loads

fredj338
10-11-2010, 12:52
I never knew bears were so hard to kill. We do not have many (if any at all ) in my part of Alabama , but I have killed 6 black bears hunting in other states. All of them were taken with a browning backdraft II set for 60lb draw using 100 grain muzzy broadheads. None of the 6 went over 40 yards after the shot.
Geeze! Hunting bears that don't even know you are there & stopping a charge are completely diff things.:upeyes: You could use a 22lr to the head, doesn't make it a good bear stopper. I'ld like to see anyone stop a charging 300# bear w/ a bow. Even w/ a heavy handgun, it's gonna be a roll of the dice. People have been killed by smallish black bears, crap happens. Bear spray is better than nothing & a 40 is better than your finger nails or a sharp knife.:dunno: You aren't "defending" yourself until the bear is on top of you or at least at your feet. Good luck w/ a bow at that distance.

dkf
10-11-2010, 14:37
Geeze! Hunting bears that don't even know you are there & stopping a charge are completely diff things.:upeyes: You could use a 22lr to the head, doesn't make it a good bear stopper. I'ld like to see anyone stop a charging 300# bear w/ a bow. Even w/ a heavy handgun, it's gonna be a roll of the dice. People have been killed by smallish black bears, crap happens. Bear spray is better than nothing & a 40 is better than your finger nails or a sharp knife.:dunno: You aren't "defending" yourself until the bear is on top of you or at least at your feet. Good luck w/ a bow at that distance.

Way to over react batman.

fredj338
10-11-2010, 15:29
Way to over react batman.
Not at all Robin, but what significance does bow hunting have to the OP's question??????:yawn: Much like over used; "9mm has killed more, blah, blah blah, killing & stopping an attack are just not the same.:dunno: Bow hunting & caliber for protection have nothing to do with each other. A little focus maybe?

dkf
10-11-2010, 16:17
Not at all Robin, but what significance does bow hunting have to the OP's question??????:yawn: Much like over used; "9mm has killed more, blah, blah blah, killing & stopping an attack are just not the same.:dunno: Bow hunting & caliber for protection have nothing to do with each other. A little focus maybe?

Maybe let a moderator deal with it or ignore it.:dunno: Sometimes if you let a comment be it doesn't snowball and get the thread further off topic. Some come to sites like this to learn, not get scolded by daddy.

fredj338
10-11-2010, 17:36
Maybe let a moderator deal with it or ignore it.:dunno: Sometimes if you let a comment be it doesn't snowball and get the thread further off topic. Some come to sites like this to learn, not get scolded by daddy.

Possibly live by your own suggestions? Personally, I did not learn anything by your bow hunting experience. There was not one word on ammo/bullet choices for the 40??:dunno: Talk about off topic???:whistling: So if you shot a bear that was 30yds away, & he dies in 40yds, does he still have the gas to maul you before he dies? I'm so confused right now, maybe you can help me understand the 40/G27 question vs bow hunting again?
You are right though, I shouldn't interject when children want to play. So you may continue to babble & I'll refrain from responding further, I promise.:supergrin: Thanks for the check.

Roering
10-11-2010, 17:49
What to carry for Black Bear?

Personally, I don't think a black bear really needs to carry. They're pretty tough as it is.

Slug71
10-11-2010, 19:15
Well i think 200gr is a little heavy for the short barrel of the G27 so something in 180gr FMJ it will be. Probably Speer Lawman or Federal Champion.

Thanks guys.

Ak.Hiker
10-11-2010, 22:08
Well i think 200gr is a little heavy for the short barrel of the G27 so something in 180gr FMJ it will be. Probably Speer Lawman or Federal Champion.

Thanks guys.

If you do decide to try the 200 grain the DT is listed as a WFNGC. They do have a wide meplate but when I tried them in my Glock 22 they ran just fine. Another good 180 grain fmj load for penetration besides the Speer Lawman is the UMC 180 grain MC.

mikegun
10-11-2010, 22:14
i FOR ONE would like to thank him for all the help he has given over the years,and i think we all owe him a debt, he will be missed...:wavey::wavey::wavey:

Glolt20-91
10-11-2010, 23:57
If you do not have any other handgun to carry in the field test out the Double Tap 200 grain hardcast for function. If it runs good in your Glock 27 carry it. If not the Speer Lawman 180 grain TMJ is a good hot load that will offer deep penetration. The Lawman loads have always run good in my Glocks. If you do a lot of woods walking save up for a 4 inch 44 Magnum. The Taurus Model 44 is a lower cost option and the one I have is a good shooter. The S&W 629 4 inch is a classic woods gun and only weighs 41.5 ounces. The Mountain gun comes in at 39 ounces if you can find one. If you are talking black bear any name brand 240 grain JSP would work.

There's a reason these M29 Mountain pics were taken on the trail during a winter hike;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/M29Mountain054.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/M29Mountain053.jpg

255gr WFN loaded to ~1200fps or 300gr to 1100fps should be more than adequate for an adrenaline charged black bear, don't forget, one may need to shoot through thick brush or branches on a charging bear . . . . I don't think arrows do that very well. :supergrin:

240gr JSP should have adequate penetration on a black bear;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/240grJSPCinderBlock.jpg

A little over 5 years ago, the son of a rancher was out on the trail with his dog; translate bear magnet.

Black bear and dog got into it, less than optimum shots with the .41mag he was carrying; it took all six rounds to kill the blackie.

While black bears don't pose much of a threat, an adrenaline charged blackie is an imminent threat and there's a caliber standard to buck up to IMO.

BTW, the M29 Mountain makes for a very comfortable carry.

Bob :cowboy:

dkf
10-12-2010, 07:21
Possibly live by your own suggestions? Personally, I did not learn anything by your bow hunting experience. There was not one word on ammo/bullet choices for the 40??:dunno: Talk about off topic???:whistling: So if you shot a bear that was 30yds away, & he dies in 40yds, does he still have the gas to maul you before he dies? I'm so confused right now, maybe you can help me understand the 40/G27 question vs bow hunting again?
You are right though, I shouldn't interject when children want to play. So you may continue to babble & I'll refrain from responding further, I promise.:supergrin: Thanks for the check.

It wasn't my post on bow hunting bears. Maybe you should go back a take another look at the post and pay close attention to who authored it.

dkf
10-12-2010, 07:33
Did anyone have any issues shooting DT hardcast loads through a stock Glock barrel? I watched the Hickok45 vid on the 10mm DT hardcast rounds and they didn't seem to perform as well through the Glock barrel. I realize the 10mm is a little different beast than the .40. Just wondering what others have found.

NonPCnraRN
10-12-2010, 20:34
Did anyone have any issues shooting DT hardcast loads through a stock Glock barrel? I watched the Hickok45 vid on the 10mm DT hardcast rounds and they didn't seem to perform as well through the Glock barrel. I realize the 10mm is a little different beast than the .40. Just wondering what others have found.
Those were the 230 gr WFNGCs not the 200 gr WFNs used in the 40 S&W. I am not sure if it was the weight of the bullet or the fact that it was a hardcast gaschecked bullet that caused the problem. Maybe Hickok45 could do a followup test with the lighter bullet weight 10mm ammo.

dkf
10-13-2010, 07:02
Those were the 230 gr WFNGCs not the 200 gr WFNs used in the 40 S&W. I am not sure if it was the weight of the bullet or the fact that it was a hardcast gaschecked bullet that caused the problem. Maybe Hickok45 could do a followup test with the lighter bullet weight 10mm ammo.

DT's site lists the 200 Gr. WFNGC for the .40 S&W. Some here recommended a heavy hard cast for obvious penetration reasons. Just curious if anyone tested these DT HC rounds for the .40.

Slug71
10-13-2010, 10:07
Emailed DT about some 180gr FMJ, got a response that it will be here next month! :supergrin:

fredj338
10-13-2010, 10:16
It wasn't my post on bow hunting bears. Maybe you should go back a take another look at the post and pay close attention to who authored it.

I know it wasn't you, but you were happy to jump in & defend the reply. So, again, follow your own advice maybe? Look, free country, you responde to stuff or not, but don't whine because you don't like the reply.:yawn:

striker6126
10-13-2010, 10:40
I know it wasn't you, but you were happy to jump in & defend the reply. So, again, follow your own advice maybe? Look, free country, you responde to stuff or not, but don't whine because you don't like the reply.:yawn:


Fred it was my post. I was just making a statement that I did not realize black bears were so hard to kill. I was not recommending a bow for black bear defense , I was simply re thinking what weapon I would take for a backup the next time I went to the black bear woods.

dkf
10-13-2010, 11:22
I know it wasn't you, but you were happy to jump in & defend the reply. So, again, follow your own advice maybe? Look, free country, you responde to stuff or not, but don't whine because you don't like the reply.:yawn:

I thought you were done.:upeyes:

Fred it was my post. I was just making a statement that I did not realize black bears were so hard to kill. I was not recommending a bow for black bear defense I was simply re thinking what weapon I would take for a backup the next time I went to the black bear woods.

Thats what I figured you meant and his response was uncalled for. Typical keyboard commando whom wishes he was a mod. Honestly I expected more from "Senior Member".

BleedNOrange
10-13-2010, 11:26
I thought you were done.:upeyes:



Thats what I figured you meant and his response was uncalled for. Typical keyboard commando whom wishes he was a mod.
He is never done..He gets his undergarments twisted pretty easily and heaven forbid you disagree with what he says.

dkf
10-13-2010, 11:37
.........

Glolt20-91
10-13-2010, 12:24
DT's site lists the 200 Gr. WFNGC for the .40 S&W. Some here recommended a heavy hard cast for obvious penetration reasons. Just curious if anyone tested these DT HC rounds for the .40.

I've thought about ordering DT's 200gr WFN bullets and loading them in both .40 an 10mm; but with .357mag, .44 Special and .44mag, it's not been a real priority.

There are black bears living in the desert, so . . . I tested some 180gr Lasercast bullets and 200gr XTPs from a G20/6" KKM barrel. Since bears will charge through brush, more importantly, thick brush; I conducted brush tests.

200gr XTPs shooting through a creosote bush had jacket separations about half the time running in the low 1200s.

Continuing with the sheetrock target, 180gr hardcast running in the low 1200s deflected, one hardcast that hit the taped off target had keyholed.

Testing with .44mag/240gr hardcast, six shots hit the the 5"x8" target. I then set another large piece of sheetrock behind 2 large creosote bushes. The white sheetrock was barely visible and I had to guesstimate where the taped off 5"x8" target was. This would be a realistic sight test if a black bear, or any other bruin, was charging through brush.

All six rounds hit the sheetrock with round holes, I forget how many rounds hit the target.

I never expected the 10/180gr hardcast would keyhole and I wonder how it would perform shooting through much harder density mesquite, figure oak and maple back east.

Double Tap states their 200gr WFN at 1100fps in .40, Lasercast load data for a G22/180gr hardcast at ~900fps max velocity with selected powders.

It would be interesting to find out DT's .40/200gr WFN velocities from those who have chronographed it.

Regarding Hickok45's video with DT's 230gr WFN (Lonewolf barrel) ammo test against cinder blocks, I was not impressed with its impact compared to what I saw with the .44mag/240gr JSP pictured above.

Whatever caliber/ammo the OP chooses to carry, I would throroughly test it in real world environments, including reliable function and accuracy/deflection results.

There's a reason why the .44mag is very popular amongst ranchers where CanyonMan and I live.


YMMV

Bob :cowboy:

Daryl in Az
10-13-2010, 12:27
I'm curious...

How many of the folks who have offered advice in this thread have ever shot a bear?

How many have shot a bear with a handgun?

How many have shot ANY living critter with a .40 S&W?

Shot something with a .40 with a good hit and it failed to kill it quickly?

Maybe been there when someone else did it?

The reason I ask is that if you haven't, then you have no personal experience to base an opinion on. Repeating internet legend/gossip doesn't help the OP make a good choice.

I've shot bears, and they aren't that hard to kill. I've shot various critters with a .40 S&W, and it performs pretty well. I've not shot a bear with a handgun, but I know folks who have. One hunted and killed a bear with a .357 Sig, and prior to that carried a .40 S&W while hunting them. He's also a pretty experienced hunter, lest he be mistaken for a fool who's ignorant of internet legend. He bases his choice on his own knowledge and preferences, rather than hype.

To the OP,

I'd choose a heavy-for-caliber self-defense load to carry. You implied that you're carrying for self-defense, but want a load that would suffice for bear in the unlikely event that you need it for that.

I, like you, carry a .40 S&W for self-defense most days. That's what's with me for "general" type carry. In the bear woods, I oft-times carry a heavy loaded .45 Colt. The loads in it give 1250+ ft/lbs of muzzle energy, and it'll shoot through most bears lengthwise.

That said, it's a heavy gun, and unsuitable for concealed or even open EDC self-defense purposes. With a human adversary, those loads would likely become a liability, and would shoot through most walls, or perhaps a couple of cars.

I would not concern myself at all with the capabilities of a .40 S&W loaded with 165 or 180 grain Gold Dot, HST, or Ranger ammo. If a G27 is what you'll have with you, then that's what you'll use. The fact that you indicated primarily carrying for self-defense against two legged varmints would keep me from carrying any kind of FMJ unless it's in an extra magazine.

Daryl

Glolt20-91
10-13-2010, 12:42
I, like you, carry a .40 S&W for self-defense most days. That's what's with me for "general" type carry. In the bear woods, I oft-times carry a heavy loaded .45 Colt. The loads in it give 1250+ ft/lbs of muzzle energy, and it'll shoot through most bears lengthwise.


Daryl

I was wondering where those sonic booms were coming from. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

dkf
10-13-2010, 12:51
...............

fredj338
10-13-2010, 13:02
He is never done..He gets his undergarments twisted pretty easily and heaven forbid you disagree with what he says.
Not at all. DIsagree w/ facts is fine, with unsupported opinion, well, you get what you get. Type something completely off the mark, what does one expect?:dunno:
Thats what I figured you meant and his response was uncalled for. Typical keyboard commando whom wishes he was a mod. Honestly I expected more from "Senior Member".
No, IMO, you were the one that jumped in to play Rambo on the keyboard. Just go by your suggestion & stay on point. I did NOT go after the OP on his post, not at all, I offered suggestions for his G27 & alternatives. It was the totally off point of hunting bear w/ a bow, then you jump in, red bandana & all & start name calling. Yeah, that is a keyboard commando with their panties in a wad. Again, feel free to place me on your ignore list.

Slug71
10-13-2010, 13:49
To the OP,

I'd choose a heavy-for-caliber self-defense load to carry. You implied that you're carrying for self-defense, but want a load that would suffice for bear in the unlikely event that you need it for that.

I, like you, carry a .40 S&W for self-defense most days. That's what's with me for "general" type carry. In the bear woods, I oft-times carry a heavy loaded .45 Colt. The loads in it give 1250+ ft/lbs of muzzle energy, and it'll shoot through most bears lengthwise.

That said, it's a heavy gun, and unsuitable for concealed or even open EDC self-defense purposes. With a human adversary, those loads would likely become a liability, and would shoot through most walls, or perhaps a couple of cars.

I would not concern myself at all with the capabilities of a .40 S&W loaded with 165 or 180 grain Gold Dot, HST, or Ranger ammo. If a G27 is what you'll have with you, then that's what you'll use. The fact that you indicated primarily carrying for self-defense against two legged varmints would keep me from carrying any kind of FMJ unless it's in an extra magazine.

Daryl

Yeh i will likely have 2 mags with/around me. If im running errands or going to be in an area where its very unlikely that i'll encounter a bear, ill have a mag with Critical Defense inserted. Any other time, especially if ill be out when its dark, ill have the FMJs inserted.
Since the bears will be heading into hibernation any day now, ill probably be carrying the Critical Defense 100% of the time until next spring when ill switch to the FMJs primarily with the CD mag in the glove box/holster and switch depending on where im going.

Will pick up some DT 180gr FMJ when they come out in November.

Another option im considering are EFMJs,
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=401

But not sure if they are going to be too soft.?
If you can get the penetration of an FMJ and the expansion of a JHP with those, then it would be a sure winner.

dkf
10-13-2010, 14:31
The EFMJ doesn't sound to promising for bear duty. Penetration doesn't look like near enough.

135-grain .40S&W
The .40S&W EFMJ fired from the S&W 4013 was yet another slick performer. Expanded diameter was 0.68 inches with a 10.25-inch depth of penetration. Felt recoil in my 4013 was very mild, making quick follow-up shots a piece of cake.Interested in others thoughts on it.

Slug71
10-13-2010, 15:32
The EFMJ doesn't sound to promising for bear duty. Penetration doesn't look like near enough.

Interested in others thoughts on it.

Ahh, i thought they were 180gr. for some reason, must have looked wrong.
Yeh that would be a no go.

Erich1B
10-13-2010, 16:11
I'm curious...

How many of the folks who have offered advice in this thread have ever shot a bear?

How many have shot a bear with a handgun?

How many have shot ANY living critter with a .40 S&W?

Shot something with a .40 with a good hit and it failed to kill it quickly?

Maybe been there when someone else did it?

The reason I ask is that if you haven't, then you have no personal experience to base an opinion on. Repeating internet legend/gossip doesn't help the OP make a good choice.


Just because someone doesn't have personal experience doesn't mean that they can't offer an intelligent response to the question.

Glolt20-91
10-13-2010, 21:20
The EFMJ doesn't sound to promising for bear duty. Penetration doesn't look like near enough.

Interested in others thoughts on it.

Not a good bullet for bear, very lacking in penetration.

Going back to FMJ type bullets, if only one shot is fired wounding the bear, chances are there won't be a blood trail to follow if the bear takes off. I expect there would be legal implications if a wounded bear went and injured others.

Bob :cowboy:

Milezenji
10-13-2010, 21:59
Like others have said; If you want penetration, find a load with a bullet that is heavy-for-caliber and non-expanding. Obviously, loaded as hot as possible!

CanyonMan
10-13-2010, 22:08
I do have personal experience, and this is still what I recommend .


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/03_9-1.jpg

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/0621000933.jpg


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/1005001755.jpg






CM

UnTainted
10-14-2010, 15:18
awesome pics CM thanks

NonPCnraRN
10-15-2010, 00:21
I do have personal experience, and this is still what I recommend .


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/03_9-1.jpg

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/0621000933.jpg


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/1005001755.jpg






CM

CM: I like your leather rig and choice of 6 shooter. You mentioned a 44 mag but that doesn't look like a SBH. Is that a BH in 45 Colt? If so, Penn makes a 270 gr Thunderhead for the 45 Colt. It has a meplat of .443 inches. Yes, .443 inches....larger than the base of a .429 inch 44 bullet. Here in the PRK I found North Fork makes a 260 gr cup point all copper solid. Because of the lead ban I found these bullets. They kill better than WFN lead bullets. Just a heads up for fellow single action shooters. Back to the subject at hand....the DT 200 gr WFNGC out of a G27 will best the ballistics of the old 38-40. A lot of deer and black bear have fallen to the 38-40 before hunters knew better. I am not saying a Glock with DT ammo would be optimum for bear hunting but the original question was regarding self defense for 2 legged and 4 legged critters. The 200 gr WFNGC is a compromise being overkill for people and only better than trying to outrun a bear or playing dead.

CanyonMan
10-15-2010, 09:00
CM: I like your leather rig and choice of 6 shooter. You mentioned a 44 mag but that doesn't look like a SBH. Is that a BH in 45 Colt? If so, Penn makes a 270 gr Thunderhead for the 45 Colt. It has a meplat of .443 inches. Yes, .443 inches....larger than the base of a .429 inch 44 bullet. Here in the PRK I found North Fork makes a 260 gr cup point all copper solid. Because of the lead ban I found these bullets. They kill better than WFN lead bullets. Just a heads up for fellow single action shooters. Back to the subject at hand....the DT 200 gr WFNGC out of a G27 will best the ballistics of the old 38-40. A lot of deer and black bear have fallen to the 38-40 before hunters knew better. I am not saying a Glock with DT ammo would be optimum for bear hunting but the original question was regarding self defense for 2 legged and 4 legged critters. The 200 gr WFNGC is a compromise being overkill for people and only better than trying to outrun a bear or playing dead.




Thanks. I appreciate it. I and a friend of mine combined efforts to make the custom cross draw holster in the pic above. One of many I got in the tack room. Lots of years of looking for and finding some good original looking/working gear.

You got a good eye for hog legs. This is a 45LC Ruger B.H. Only pic I had on hand. I use 275gr and 300/335 gr hard cast in all the hoglegs, even the 44mag/special they are made by my very close friend JR at Hunter supply. 20/21 bhn and will end to end elk and bear. Those, and Cast performance lead 'with my recipes' have served me well for a long time. I appreciate the heads up on the other lead you spoke of though. Thanks ! I am kinda up to my eye balls with lead supply. Got a few ace in the hole supplys, so I will never run out. :supergrin:


Amigo, I got to stick with my convictions on the G27 for bear. No thnaks.. :supergrin: I've already PM'd the OP, but if that is all you got , it's all ya got. I don't know anything about DT, as I never use it. All my stuff is home rolled, with the exception of a couple of particular carry loads for 'in town'. Even then, I trust my hand loads over the factory. ;)

I do agree that he is in the middle here. Using these in a more urban area. But if I were worried about bears, I would load that little G27 for 'em best I could, 'if that was all I had', and if I had to use it on a BG, well, I would not hesitate.

We carry these serious Hard Cast loads on the ranch out here for stuff that would be threats to our livestock, 'and for any trouble with two legged illegals'. The brush here is very thick, so it requires a tuff horse and tuff tack and a tuff bullet. ;)


Thanks again for the information on the bullets pard...



Good shooting !






CanyonMan

Glolt20-91
10-15-2010, 13:51
Thanks. I appreciate it. I and a friend of mine combined efforts to make the custom cross draw holster in the pic above. One of many I got in the tack room. Lots of years of looking for and finding some good original looking/working gear.

You got a good eye for hog legs. This is a 45LC Ruger B.H. Only pic I had on hand. I use 275gr and 300/335 gr hard cast in all the hoglegs, even the 44mag/special they are made by my very close friend JR at Hunter supply. 20/21 bhn and will end to end elk and bear. Those, and Cast performance lead 'with my recipes' have served me well for a long time. I appreciate the heads up on the other lead you spoke of though. Thanks ! I am kinda up to my eye balls with lead supply. Got a few ace in the hole supplys, so I will never run out. :supergrin:


Amigo, I got to stick with my convictions on the G27 for bear. No thnaks.. :supergrin: I've already PM'd the OP, but if that is all you got , it's all ya got. I don't know anything about DT, as I never use it. All my stuff is home rolled, with the exception of a couple of particular carry loads for 'in town'. Even then, I trust my hand loads over the factory. ;)

I do agree that he is in the middle here. Using these in a more urban area. But if I were worried about bears, I would load that little G27 for 'em best I could, 'if that was all I had', and if I had to use it on a BG, well, I would not hesitate.

We carry these serious Hard Cast loads on the ranch out here for stuff that would be threats to our livestock, 'and for any trouble with two legged illegals'. The brush here is very thick, so it requires a tuff horse and tuff tack and a tuff bullet. ;)


Thanks again for the information on the bullets pard...



Good shooting !






CanyonMan

Nice looking rig and loads you have. :thumbsup:

Would you please share your experiences and explain the advantages of a cross-draw rig while riding in the saddle?

tuff horse and tuff tack and a tuff bullet.

and special women.

Bob :cowboy:

CanyonMan
10-15-2010, 15:59
Nice looking rig and loads you have. :thumbsup:

Would you please share your experiences and explain the advantages of a cross-draw rig while riding in the saddle?

tuff horse and tuff tack and a tuff bullet.

and special women. Bob





We can not leave out the horse and that one and only very special woman in our lives amigo ! ;)

Wow, where to start, and here I am trying to vaction myself from GT for a while. LOL


First off amigo. Thanks ! I have a good number of "original to the period rigs" I've aquired over the years for six shooters. This one in the pic I just had a small hand in constructing.... The rest are 'much better' by custom craftsmen.


Really I guess the simplest way to describe the cross draw rig is that it does ease in mounting and dismounting the horse and not getting jabbed in the leg on the strong side while doing so. Also, no matter if your right or left handed, let's say right handed, since most are. It allows for bridle control of the animal with the left hand, while being able to reach across in front of your belly and behind the pommel (the part the saddle horn is attached to) to grab for the gun.

This, for most gun savvy pistoleros is more comfortable than 'reaching around' on the strong side making a draw. Some do not agree and like strong side holsters.

I use both, and prefer the cross draw for the reason/s mentioned, plus it (the cross draw) also helps in not having the muzzle of a longer barreled hog leg jabbing into the saddle just in front, or even up against the cantle (the upward rise of the rear of the saddle behind your butt).

Most horse-wise 'pistoleros' can carry either way and draw and shoot even on the run with strong side or cross draw, but in the long run, the cross draw has been a round for a very long time in western history and most working Vaquero's prefer this method.

Also, when setting a loop with the lariat, some times that loop will be under your right arm pit before it is thrown. The cross draw helps here as well, as It is real easy sometimes to get that loop caught on the pistol grip and if tied down, you just missed your throw, and no dally is going to be taken today 'for a spell at least', or if the hog leg is NOT tied down (loop over the hammer) you can your jerk that favorite pitol out of the scabbard and throw it in the brush real quick. Ask me how I know ! :embarassed:

Also on a fast dismount coming down the string on a calf, the cross draw once again (worn properly), keeps the gun out of the way, and from jabbing the top of the thigh and being a hindrance.

I'll share one more here. It (the CD) also helps when ridin through real thick brush after that stray that decided to take you and your hoss off on a heck of a journey, where your hat comes off (that is why ya need a stampede string) and rip your shirt, and mesquite thorns make you and your hoss look like ya been in a knife fight with somone, but at least the chaps and 18" Olathe boots saved your legs and feet ! At least that CD holster kept your gun from catchin a snag !

If your pony ever steps in a hole or takes a fall on ya, the CD helps as well from havin the butt end of the grip goin in your side or gut, cause it is butt end down with the CD, worst you usually come out with is a hammer spur in your gut. Unless you count the pony on top of ya ! :wow:



I think out of all of this though, I love the cross draw cause I am an old set in his ways cowpoke that likes to stay original as possible. ;)


There is no way to describe being on a good mount in the desert S.W. where ya can see for miles, and the sky is on fire it seems with the bright red glow off the low slung clouds, and the sage brush and cedar smells like sweet perfume, and the cactus rose is in bloom and a man is free.

To drive cattle (which is not done much any longer we got semi's to pick 'em up now) but when those drives take place, ( i love 'em ) even for 15 or 20 miles, and 'sometimes further', it is great to say the least.

When your throwin your blanket out at night, and sittin around the campfire, and swappin tales, or just no one sayin a word cause your all worn out and dog tired from chasin strays through the brush, or havin a personal rodeo cause a rattler spooked your mount, and patchin up wounds and gear, and then thinkin about what might happen tomorrow, or tonight if a storm kicks up. Will a big cat go to makin a noise in the dark that crawls up your spine, and strats puttin the beeves on the prod, it's like there is no other world out there except where your at right now. Even in all this.

Hopefully, the storm don't come, and the cat stays away, so you can ease back in that saddle on the ground and look up at 50 billion stars that seem no more than a couple miles off the ground, and think about how great it would be if this would only last, and be this way forever. And how great God is that made all this for ya !

It would take me a (literal book) to share all the "experiences" I rekon.

But maybe, maybe something shared here to your question Bob, has been a blessing in some way. I know there ain't hardly a man alive that at sometime has not dreamed about being a cowboy. I thank God I got to be one ! ;)


Adios Hombre !





CanyonMan

FPS
10-15-2010, 16:30
The OP is in New Hampshire where the typical bear is 200lbs. I'm thinking a hot 180-200grain 357mag round, like Buffalo Bore, would be the minimum. You can certainly shoot your .40 at a bear and hope for the best.

NonPCnraRN
10-15-2010, 21:55
Nice looking rig and loads you have. :thumbsup:

Would you please share your experiences and explain the advantages of a cross-draw rig while riding in the saddle?

tuff horse and tuff tack and a tuff bullet.

and special women.

Bob :cowboy:

I don't ride a horse but a cross draw works well even if you're just woods bummin'. I had both shoulder joints replaced and it is difficult to draw from a close to the body strong side pancake holster. It is just plain easier to draw from a cross draw holster. If you ride in a vehicle you will know that what CM said about a saddle also applies to a vehicle seat. Rob L of Simply Rugged makes a pancake holster with 3 belt loops so you can wear it strong side and cross draw. It also accepts accessory straps that allows it to be worn inside the waistband. With the addition of a Chesty Puller harness the holster can be worn across the chest or as a shoulder holster. A very versatile holster, it does not use a thumbstrap. Rob's holsters use exacting fit to hold the gun in place. I thought I would pass that info along as Rob also makes a pancake holster for semiautos. You have to get used to good looking tooled leather instead of kydex.
http://www.simplyrugged.com/

CanyonMan
10-16-2010, 18:37
I don't ride a horse but a cross draw works well even if you're just woods bummin'. I had both shoulder joints replaced and it is difficult to draw from a close to the body strong side pancake holster. It is just plain easier to draw from a cross draw holster. If you ride in a vehicle you will know that what CM said about a saddle also applies to a vehicle seat. Rob L of Simply Rugged makes a pancake holster with 3 belt loops so you can wear it strong side and cross draw. It also accepts accessory straps that allows it to be worn inside the waistband. With the addition of a Chesty Puller harness the holster can be worn across the chest or as a shoulder holster. A very versatile holster, it does not use a thumbstrap. Rob's holsters use exacting fit to hold the gun in place. I thought I would pass that info along as Rob also makes a pancake holster for semiautos. You have to get used to good looking tooled leather instead of kydex.
http://www.simplyrugged.com/



Amen amigo !

In all my poetry, above post, haha, I forgot to mention that the CD holster also makes for an easy transition from the saddle to the 4 wheel drive.... :supergrin: Thanks for filling in that blank for me ! ;)


Stay safe and good shooting !





CM

Glolt20-91
10-16-2010, 19:27
Amen amigo !

In all my poetry, above post, haha, I forgot to mention that the CD holster also makes for an easy transition from the saddle to the 4 wheel drive.... :supergrin: Thanks for filling in that blank for me ! ;)


Stay safe and good shooting !





CM

Oh yes, pick-ups like horses usually require that our hands are in front of us, a cross-draw advantage.

Bob :cowboy:

jtull7
10-16-2010, 20:05
This thread now has 55 posts.

I would bet the ranch that 50 of the posters have never seen a bear in the woods.

I think that is interesting.

Ak.Hiker
10-16-2010, 23:14
This thread now has 55 posts.

I would bet the ranch that 50 of the posters have never seen a bear in the woods.

I think that is interesting.

I have seen quite a few. Black and brown bears both. I was relaxing after a long hike in some grass when a bear killed a moose right behind me. I have seen brown bears run full speed down hills knocking over everything in their path. I have had a brown bear come running from a fishing stream roaring like a lion just to see what I was doing. We both looked at each other for a minute and he turned and ran. I am convinced that the drawn 44 Magnum loaded with 305 grain CorBon Penetrators gave me the confidence to stand my ground. I did order a 454 after that encounter. I have lost track of all of the black bears I have seen. I would be willing to bet that my pals from Texas and Arizona have seen more bears than I have. I also think that the guys in Florida and the south that hunt hogs have a good understanding of what it takes to put down big animals with a handgun.

Glolt20-91
10-17-2010, 12:37
I have seen quite a few. Black and brown bears both. I was relaxing after a long hike in some grass when a bear killed a moose right behind me. I have seen brown bears run full speed down hills knocking over everything in their path. I have had a brown bear come running from a fishing stream roaring like a lion just to see what I was doing. We both looked at each other for a minute and he turned and ran. I am convinced that the drawn 44 Magnum loaded with 305 grain CorBon Penetrators gave me the confidence to stand my ground. I did order a 454 after that encounter. I have lost track of all of the black bears I have seen. I would be willing to bet that my pals from Texas and Arizona have seen more bears than I have. I also think that the guys in Florida and the south that hunt hogs have a good understanding of what it takes to put down big animals with a handgun.

I've seen how large and awesome Rocky Mountain grizz can be, I can't imagine what you felt inside during that brownie charge; :faint: but I can understand why you ordered the .454 Casull afterward.

What bothers me are the times when a bruin is heard/smelled nearby and there is no visual. This brings up other issues such as recognizing bear sign and if there's a breeze/wind at your face or back etc.

One of the reasons I brought up the shooting through brush issue is because bruins can be nearby and not seen. If one hears a freight train coming through brush and ponders what's causing the ruckus; it's too late to recover if it's a bruin charge IMO.

The OP is in a lose-lose situation there in New Hampshire, can't shoot safely inside city limits, nature is also out of balance there. As Fred posted, the OP is better off carrying bear spray for defense. I expect killing or wounding a bear could be legally problematic, especially with Game & Fish, but I don't know for sure.

On a side note, where you, CanyonMan and I live et al, nature is in balance and there's plenty of food/game to go around; but, if a bruin wants to eat anything behind a door it'll probably find a way inside.

Depending on the time of year, bull moose can be more of a threat than bruins; you may have some moose stories to share with the rest of us.

Bob :cowboy:

Ak.Hiker
10-17-2010, 12:57
Moose are good to eat but I sure do not have any desire to get myself charged by one. I have been charged in the winter and for me I am more fearful of moose when in the woods than bears. Once I had to cover 3 men that were up in a tree. A big bull moose during the rut came after them and up the tree they went. Not a one of them had a gun so when they saw me coming up the trail they saw I had a rifle and asked me to help them. As soon as I racked a round into the chamber I got the bulls attention. I covered the 3 guys as they came down. The bull sure did know what a rifle is. I guess this is the part about nature being in balance. They did something to piss the moose off. I guess you could say it was their own fault. Just like it was my fault when I got myself charged by the brown bear. I was out hiking on a fishermans trail as the sun was going down. A very dumb thing to do and I will never make the same mistake again. So I think you have a very good point in the fact that the best thing a man can do when in areas that have big animals is to use your knowlegde or the knowledge of others so you do not get yourself into trouble to begin with. You also bring up a good point on using bear spray in a populated area. Same reason Fish and Game officers tend to use shotguns. The safety of others is a very important factor. No one that I know would want to save themselves at the expense of harming another person especially a child.

Glolt20-91
10-18-2010, 02:19
Moose trees humans, it didn't need back-up; buttheads up the tree w/o any lead, where's the camera??? :rofl:

Back on thread, friend of mine shared this timely article regarding a black bear attack;

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39541721/ns/us_news-life/

Excerpts;

Wash. state bear-mauling victim describes attack
Councilman has had five surgeries since the Sept. 17 mauling

"I vividly remember being bitten on the head and the sound that makes as her teeth were going into my head and running along the skull," he said. "It was just a horrendous fight."

When Chelminiak was flown to the hospital in Seattle UW Medicine plastic surgeon Matthew Klein said parts of his face and scalp were hanging off. Doctors had to remove his left eye.

Wildlife agents tracked and killed the black bear a few hours after the attack. They said it was an older female, thin at 148 pounds and in poor condition.


Bob :cowboy:

Gunnut 45/454
10-18-2010, 22:46
When I'm in Bear country on purpose - usually have a rifle! When just walking around in Bear country and not hunting the Minimum I have on me is a 357 mag BH or my 454 Casull! Used to carry my 45 ACP loaded with 255 gr Cast! But my current 45 ACP doesn't like that load!:whistling:

NonPCnraRN
10-18-2010, 23:22
When I'm in Bear country on purpose - usually have a rifle! When just walking around in Bear country and not hunting the Minimum I have on me is a 357 mag BH or my 454 Casull! Used to carry my 45 ACP loaded with 255 gr Cast! But my current 45 ACP doesn't like that load!:whistling:

Since you mentioned a rifle, I have a Puma 92 carbine in 480 Ruger that will launch a 420 gr WFN bullet at 1400 fps. Not bad from a 6 lb carbine. Now I'm saving for a 5 shot Ruger Birds Head Vaquero conversion in 480 Ruger as a companion handgun.

Gunnut 45/454
10-18-2010, 23:53
NonPCnraRN
Either of them will be more then enough for Black bear! If you can hit the bear that is!:whistling: Black bear are not like Griz they don't usually stalk you! Most will run away from you! But get in between a mom and cubs and all bets are off! But there always the chance of an aggressive bear, sick ,injured, starving! A freind of mine had to shoot a black that attacked him while out deer hunting a few years back! It was a good sized bore and it came for him from the top of ridge he was on! No warning at all-my freind was lucky as he saw it at about 200 yards!! He thought it was running to get away but it made the turn at 100 yards when it could have went down hill an came right at him, head down and snarling! He dropped it at 60 yards with a great shot from his 7mm Mag!:supergrin: The game warden couldn't figure it out as the bear was healthy I guess that bear just didn't like humans!