I have little more respect for AutoComp. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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freakshow10mm
10-14-2010, 00:52
Yep, I know. I talked a bunch of smack about Winchester AC in the past. But I'm still right. AC sucks for published loads.

So I got suckered into loading 9mm Major for a local competitor that is trying to get me to be one of the few licensed manufacturers loading 9mm Major. Trouble is that requires a custom headstamp and $10,000 I don't have to buy 100K brass for the minimum order.

I started running AC with 124gr FMJ bullets at Major level. OK, I'm about 98% sold.

I'm getting 1380fps with a 124gr FMJ (not plated) from a 5 inch 1911.

Two OALs I'm working with are 1.170 and 1.145. The longer does 167 PF and the shorter does 171 PF with same charge weight.

This is what I'm talking about when I said "not usable within published data, but has potential if venturing beyond with understanding and respect".

Clean, soft (for Major), consistent, flat dot tracking, cheap to load. Powder doesn't spill either.

Colorado4Wheel
10-14-2010, 05:22
If someones wants 9Major thell them to ream the barrel for 9X21mm and load it using that brass. Load data exist that is not over spec and brass is properly marked.

Colorado4Wheel
10-14-2010, 05:29
For the record. Look in a Lyman 49 manual. 9mm and 9X21 is the same basic brass just longer. If you load 9mm to 1.169 you should be at the same pressures as the load data for 9X21 and the extra capacity prevents you from being over pressure. So you should be able to load 9mm long and find something that is not overpressure if you look hard enough.

one73maro
10-14-2010, 07:38
Hey freakshow have you loaded any 40cal with the autocomp? Wanting to find some good loads for the range. Thanks Jeff

freakshow10mm
10-14-2010, 08:00
Skip AC for .40 and just get WST or WSF.

Steve, I tried to talk her into 9x21 but she won't listen. Or even a Super or SC. I can load 9mm, x21, and Super on my 9mm Luger conversion on the 1050. SC will require a .223 shellplate, which I don't have.

fudd
10-14-2010, 08:10
I like it with .380 & cast bullets.

freakshow10mm
10-14-2010, 08:42
Winchester uses AC in their factory .380 ammo and has for some time.

Colorado4Wheel
10-14-2010, 11:32
Even if you don't load 9X21mm you can still load 9mm to +P levels. Just buy some +P brass. They are both the same thing if you can load the 9mm to 1.169". Then you can make major and still be with in spec which is all that really maters to you I would think from a safety perspective.

freakshow10mm
10-14-2010, 13:37
Most major 9mm ammo is in excess of +P pressure.

9mm SAAMI is 35,000 psi.

9mm +P SAAMI is 38,500 psi.

.38 Super +P SAAMI is lower than that at only 36,500 psi.

Most of what I've seen 9mm Major loads are in excess of 40,000 psi and even as high as 55,000 psi, especially with "old major" loads (175PF with 180PF for chrono margin) when ran through QL.

From a safety standpoint, I'd like to get brass stamped "9mm Major" as even with Starline's +P stamp for load sorting. +P could be a Major load but a Major load could be over +P. I'll see if I can make major at +P and just use +P brass. I think I can get there with AC, but I'll have Hodgdon run the pressure for me. Goal would be 170 PF so there would be a 5PF margin for chrono.

Colorado4Wheel
10-14-2010, 16:36
Most major 9mm ammo is in excess of +P pressure.

9mm SAAMI is 35,000 psi.

9mm +P SAAMI is 38,500 psi.

.38 Super +P SAAMI is lower than that at only 36,500 psi.

Most of what I've seen 9mm Major loads are in excess of 40,000 psi and even as high as 55,000 psi, especially with "old major" loads (175PF with 180PF for chrono margin) when ran through QL.

From a safety standpoint, I'd like to get brass stamped "9mm Major" as even with Starline's +P stamp for load sorting. +P could be a Major load but a Major load could be over +P. I'll see if I can make major at +P and just use +P brass. I think I can get there with AC, but I'll have Hodgdon run the pressure for me. Goal would be 170 PF so there would be a 5PF margin for chrono.

Like I said. You can load major ammo in 9X21mm using #7

124gr going 1334 (In the Lyman Manual). OAL is 1.169. Cup is 32,200, PF 165.

9mm brass and 9X21 is the same except OAL. So just load 9mm to the same OAL and you get the same result. Load 9mm using +P levels to get your 170PF that you need. Key is to load long. It's all in the Lyman Manual if you just look. They even have a 147 gr load that makes 170PF at the same CUP level.

freakshow10mm
10-15-2010, 11:30
#7 will also get Major in x19 brass when loaded to 1.170. Uses a bunch of powder but at $11/lb OEM, it's pretty cheap still.

Don't have the Lyman #49, just the #48. The #7 load you're referencing is listed here as a 1335fps with 1.09 OAL for 32.1K CUP.

Thing is hitting the exact PF is very risky, as you're at 164PF and you're shooting at minor.

Had a local USPSA shooter run 50rds of my ammo to see what he thought of it. He's got one of those fancy STI jedi guns with more bling than a gangsta rapper. Impressed him. Didn't believe it felt like major loads, but he shot a 10rd string over the chrono and was very surprised major ammo could be that smooth. If the pressure testing is within SAAMI +P, then it's game on.

PM me, Steve, if you're interested in the load specifics. Only a few people I trust on here to work it up if they want.

Colorado4Wheel
10-15-2010, 11:51
#7 will also get Major in x19 brass when loaded to 1.170. Uses a bunch of powder but at $11/lb OEM, it's pretty cheap still.

Don't have the Lyman #49, just the #48. The #7 load you're referencing is listed here as a 1335fps with 1.09 OAL for 32.1K CUP.

Thing is hitting the exact PF is very risky, as you're at 164PF and you're shooting at minor.

Had a local USPSA shooter run 50rds of my ammo to see what he thought of it. He's got one of those fancy STI jedi guns with more bling than a gangsta rapper. Impressed him. Didn't believe it felt like major loads, but he shot a 10rd string over the chrono and was very surprised major ammo could be that smooth. If the pressure testing is within SAAMI +P, then it's game on.

PM me, Steve, if you're interested in the load specifics. Only a few people I trust on here to work it up if they want.

I checked my #49 Manual. It looks like you posted 9X21mm data. And yep. It will make major pretty easily in the right situation. If you loaded +P it would be even better.
Actually 9mm data is about 150fps or more slower at the shorter OAL.

freakshow10mm
10-15-2010, 12:00
Yeah, the #48 doesn't have a 124gr load, but it has a 125gr Sierra JHP load at 1.075 OAL for 7.8gr #7 @ 1119fps 31.6K CUP.

The load I posted above is the x21 data from #48 as that's the only 124/125gr load from x19, x21, or 38S that is north of 1300fps.

The Lyman is good for cast bullets, but since I have my loads from the #48 I worked up, I didn't bother with the #49 manual.

Colorado4Wheel
10-15-2010, 18:27
Yeah, the #48 doesn't have a 124gr load, but it has a 125gr Sierra JHP load at 1.075 OAL for 7.8gr #7 @ 1119fps 31.6K CUP.

The load I posted above is the x21 data from #48 as that's the only 124/125gr load from x19, x21, or 38S that is north of 1300fps.

The Lyman is good for cast bullets, but since I have my loads from the #48 I worked up, I didn't bother with the #49 manual.

I don't think they changed it much.

srd
10-16-2010, 06:42
Freakshow..i think its a great idea for you to load 9 major. There are people out there that want to use it but dont want to reload on there own. I load to 1.150 for my Tanfo using AC and MG 124JHP with a 172 PF. I used to use #7 but it was very dirty until i pushed beyond the load you are showing. I also use rifle primers. A friend of mine gave me some Silhouette loads to try. Nice tracking and very little dot movement. I picked some up the othe day to play with. Good Luck in you venture and i hope it works for you.

shotgunred
10-16-2010, 10:08
I bet there are a lot of people out there that would buy power factor ammo.
I would think IDPA power factor would sell A bit better than than major.

freakshow10mm
10-16-2010, 14:14
Freakshow..i think its a great idea for you to load 9 major. There are people out there that want to use it but dont want to reload on there own. I load to 1.150 for my Tanfo using AC and MG 124JHP with a 172 PF. I used to use #7 but it was very dirty until i pushed beyond the load you are showing. I also use rifle primers. A friend of mine gave me some Silhouette loads to try. Nice tracking and very little dot movement. I picked some up the othe day to play with. Good Luck in you venture and i hope it works for you.
Silhouette, HS6, AC, and #7 seem to be good Major powders.

AAA hasn't loaded Major in over a year and don't have plans to do so for a long time either. Opportunity knocks and I'm heading to answer the door.

I'm running the idea of loading 9mm Major by my advisor team and see what they think. The ammo would be new brass with +P stamp from either Remington or Starline (depending on availability at the time of order) until I can get the $10,000 required to get my own headstamp.

I bet there are a lot of people out there that would buy power factor ammo.
I would think IDPA power factor would sell A bit better than than major.
I currently sell a 9mm 130 PF load for suppressed applications. I use this load to shoot IDPA here locally with my H&H P7 PSP. I'm thinking of a slight model change by making ammo for the competition crowd, but extending a marketing campaign for the 147gr subsonic ammo. The minor PF ammo would be reloads and the major PF would be new brass only.

MoNsTeR
10-21-2010, 16:11
Not using commodity brass defeats the entire point.

Agree that Autocomp works well in this application though, I'm in the process of switching from 3N37.

freakshow10mm
10-21-2010, 22:41
Not using commodity brass defeats the entire point.

Commodity brass? Please clarify. I'm unsure what you mean.

MoNsTeR
10-25-2010, 12:56
Commodity brass? Please clarify. I'm unsure what you mean.

I mean if you were to go out of your way (and presumably pay extra money) to use +P or "9mm Major" brass, it would defeat the entire purpose of 9mm major, which is using dirt cheap brass. If you end up paying as much as you would for 38 Super brass, you should just use 38 Super (or 9x21 in platforms that can't fit 38 Super).

DWARREN123
10-25-2010, 15:41
I found that AC for 165gr 40 cal is good. This is the only 40 cal load that beats Longshot in my guns. Lower pressure at higher FPS.

freakshow10mm
10-25-2010, 23:10
I mean if you were to go out of your way (and presumably pay extra money) to use +P or "9mm Major" brass, it would defeat the entire purpose of 9mm major, which is using dirt cheap brass. If you end up paying as much as you would for 38 Super brass, you should just use 38 Super (or 9x21 in platforms that can't fit 38 Super).
OK I see now. Problem with Major is I don't want some fool shooting Major reloads in their gun if it's not a 1911 or aftermarket KKM barrel in a Glock built for 9mm Major, hence the desire for marked brass. New brass is about $100/K and custom headstamp is a bit lower plus a $750 tooling charge and the minimum 100K order makes it a $10,000 initial order. No way can I afford that.

I do have a source for relatively inexpensive known OF brass and that's the only stuff I'd reload for Major. I think I'm just going to concentrate on Minor, save some cash, and then look to loading Major when I can get custom brass.

VN350X10
10-25-2010, 23:27
I've tested 9 major for several years, using the OEM barrel in my G34. No problems so far, but the open gun I'm building for my son Mike is using a KKM.
Vhit powders make major PF within SAAMI pressure levels, but for a commercial loader, it's NOT cost effective !
My loads are using 3N37/3N38 either one pushing a 147 ggr bullet, this lets the pressures be not so gonzo, but it still is a definite MAJOR on steel !
I load as long as is possible with a Glock mag, this is where a 1911 platform has the advantage, it will work with a lot longer ammo.
Just a reference point....Hirtenberger L7A1 headstamp NATO ammo makes a pf of 174 out of a stock G34 barrel. It's a 124 gr & averages 1404 fps. over my chrono.
And since it has the NATO mark (cross in circle) Glock says "Go ahead & shoot it!"
Just getting a bit hard to find now.....

uncle albert

freakshow10mm
10-26-2010, 01:24
Vhit powders make major PF within SAAMI pressure levels, but for a commercial loader, it's NOT cost effective !
It's less than a $10 difference per case. I wouldn't be concerned with that small a difference. Minor loads it's less than $3 per case. Don't sweat the small stuff. :supergrin:

Colorado4Wheel
10-26-2010, 07:45
I've tested 9 major for several years, using the OEM barrel in my G34. No problems so far, but the open gun I'm building for my son Mike is using a KKM.
Vhit powders make major PF within SAAMI pressure levels, but for a commercial loader, it's NOT cost effective !
My loads are using 3N37/3N38 either one pushing a 147 ggr bullet, this lets the pressures be not so gonzo, but it still is a definite MAJOR on steel !
I load as long as is possible with a Glock mag, this is where a 1911 platform has the advantage, it will work with a lot longer ammo.
Just a reference point....Hirtenberger L7A1 headstamp NATO ammo makes a pf of 174 out of a stock G34 barrel. It's a 124 gr & averages 1404 fps. over my chrono.
And since it has the NATO mark (cross in circle) Glock says "Go ahead & shoot it!"
Just getting a bit hard to find now.....

uncle albert

That has been my point from the start. 9X21mm (which is the same as 9mm in most way just loaded long in a longer case) is capable of making major simply due to the longer length and case volume. Find the right powder, load 9mm to 1.169" and you should be able to find several combos that make major and not exceed sammi spec for +p and even several that or within standard SAMMI spec.

freakshow10mm
10-26-2010, 11:16
Right and my point is if I'm loading in excess of SAAMI standard pressure (35K psi) I want it designated as such, even though there is no engineering difference between standard and +P brass in the 9mm. Most service type weapons can handle +P ammunition no problem, but it's the cheap guns I have to be concerned with.

VN350X10
10-26-2010, 21:17
But the whole idea of 9 Major was...
1) Less expensive, easier to obtain brass. (9x21 fails on both counts!)
2) A larger variety of pistols, not a whole herd of 1911's & clones. Make it more interesting for those who DON'T use a 1911 platform.

FWIW...9X21 is a legal "loophole" caliber. It permits folks who can't own a 9 Parabellum to shoot . Several countries prohibit 9 Para because it's a military caliber.
The .45 HP is another one, the case is 1mm (.039") shorter than a .45 ACP, and therefore not a military caliber.
Side note, I've yet to see a 1911 in .45 ACP that wouldn't function with the .45 HP round


uncle albert

had too add, 9X21 ISN'T loaded longer than 9X19, the spec is the SAME OAL for both rounds. Only the case is different.