Lawman 185gr TMJ FN [Archive] - Glock Talk

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beforeobamabans
10-15-2010, 18:13
Just bought a case. Looks like interesting ammo. For $299/case, it's cheaper than Blazer AL or Ruskie steel.

1050 fps / 453 ft.lbs. and that wicked flat nose. Hell, it looks like good carry ammo.

beancounter81
10-15-2010, 20:18
Been eyeing that same stuff since they got the shipment in. Let us know how it shoots!

Ak.Hiker
10-16-2010, 00:45
Sounds like a good load. My favorite cop shop carries a 200 grain Lawman TMJ flat point +P. Another interesting load. I think it is a training load to match up with the Gold Dot 200 grain +P. Just like the 185 grain TMJ will match up with the 185 grain Gold Dot.

beforeobamabans
10-31-2010, 11:33
Been eyeing that same stuff since they got the shipment in. Let us know how it shoots!
Finally got to the range today, and the Lawman FN shot just fine. Just to see if I could notice a difference, I took four boxes of different brand ammo. The other three were all 230 gr FMJ: Aguila, Remington UMC and Fed Champ. I went back and forth between the various brands and frankly, it was very difficult to tell the difference. The Lawman fed just fine and shot just fine so I see no reason not to "load up" on it for practice ammo. Unfortunately, the vendor I bought it from got wiped out pretty quickly. I'd summarize it as a great deal at $299+frt for American made, brass cased 45acp ammo. If it resurfaces, don't hesitate to buy it. I know I won't.

Little Joe
11-01-2010, 13:41
Finally got to the range today, and the Lawman FN shot just fine. Just to see if I could notice a difference, I took four boxes of different brand ammo. The other three were all 230 gr FMJ: Aguila, Remington UMC and Fed Champ. I went back and forth between the various brands and frankly, it was very difficult to tell the difference. The Lawman fed just fine and shot just fine so I see no reason not to "load up" on it for practice ammo. Unfortunately, the vendor I bought it from got wiped out pretty quickly. I'd summarize it as a great deal at $299+frt for American made, brass cased 45acp ammo. If it resurfaces, don't hesitate to buy it. I know I won't.

Try this for SD practice. It'll get closer to a full house .45 than the 185 or 200.

http://www.sgammo.com/product/cci/1000-rds-45-acp-auto-p-high-pressure-speer-lawman-200-grain-tmj-ammo-53656

481
11-01-2010, 14:39
Hell, it looks like good carry ammo.

Uhh, yeah!

Especially if you are looking for a lot of penetration. :supergrin:

The .45ACP 185 gr. TMJ-FP at 1050 fps oughtta be good for just over 29 inches of penetration. :cool: (through calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin or soft tissue, of course!)

beforeobamabans
11-01-2010, 15:22
Uhh, yeah!

Especially if you are looking for a lot of penetration. :supergrin:

The .45ACP 185 gr. TMJ-FP at 1050 fps oughtta be good for just over 29 inches of penetration. :cool: (through calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin or soft tissue, of course!)

Yeah, but I was thinking about Canyon Man who wants his carry ammo to go through a hand, an arm, two ribs and still come out the other side! :cheers:

Do you agree that a FN will tumble creating one hell of a mess?

beforeobamabans
11-01-2010, 15:24
Try this for SD practice. It'll get closer to a full house .45 than the 185 or 200.

http://www.sgammo.com/product/cci/1000-rds-45-acp-auto-p-high-pressure-speer-lawman-200-grain-tmj-ammo-53656

That is great to see. They didn't have those when I bought the 185. I wonder why the Lawman is suddenly so available and so (relatively) cheap.

481
11-01-2010, 18:31
Yeah, but I was thinking about Canyon Man who wants his carry ammo to go through a hand, an arm, two ribs and still come out the other side! :cheers:

Do you agree that a FN will tumble creating one hell of a mess?

Well CanyonMan does like the extremes when it comes to his carry ammo, that's for sure and I am almost certain that he'd find 29+" of penetration to be on the "light side" for his tastes.

While bullets with significant meplats are less likely to "tumble" when travelling through a fluidic or colloidal media like calibrated ordnance gelatin, they do offer somewhat greater penetration than their "round-nosed" FMJ brethren since they have a lower cavitation threshold velocity courtesy of that physical trait. They do unleash a whole lotta penetration though.

CanyonMan
11-01-2010, 18:36
Yeah, but I was thinking about Canyon Man who wants his carry ammo to go through a hand, an arm, two ribs and still come out the other side! :cheers:

Do you agree that a FN will tumble creating one hell of a mess?


:rofl: Dang, that is a very good description of my tastes amigo ! :cool:


If the "meplat" is big enough the bullet should not tumble, I "know" it can create a mess without tumbling. The more surface area you place on the front of that FN bullet the less likely it is to tumble ;)



Stay safe !




CM

CanyonMan
11-01-2010, 18:41
Well CanyonMan does like the extremes when it comes to his carry ammo, that's for sure and I am almost certain that he'd find 29+" of penetration to be on the "light side" for his tastes.


While bullets with significant meplats are less likely to "tumble" when travelling through a fluidic or colloidal media like calibrated ordnance gelatin, they do offer somewhat greater penetration than their "round-nosed" FMJ brethren since they have a lower cavitation threshold velocity courtesy of that physical trait. They do unleash a whole lotta penetration though.


So Now I am an "extremist" Eh? :rofl:

Only 29" of penetration ! You insult me amigo ! :tongueout:


And yes I do agree with the things you said in your post. ;)



Stay safe my friend.




CM

Ak.Hiker
11-01-2010, 20:13
CM's favorite 45 Colt load I bet would go through 29 inches of gel, a nice sized tree, and a 20 lb. turkey {frozen} and still have enough juice left to reach the vitals of a 300 lb. bad guy. I do not think he stays up late at night worrying about over penetration.

Ak.Hiker
11-01-2010, 20:16
Uhh, yeah!

Especially if you are looking for a lot of penetration. :supergrin:

The .45ACP 185 gr. TMJ-FP at 1050 fps oughtta be good for just over 29 inches of penetration. :cool: (through calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin or soft tissue, of course!)

How do you think the 185 TMJ would compare to a standard 230 grain hardball load in gel?

CanyonMan
11-01-2010, 23:28
CM's favorite 45 Colt load I bet would go through 29 inches of gel, a nice sized tree, and a 20 lb. turkey {frozen} and still have enough juice left to reach the vitals of a 300 lb. bad guy. I do not think he stays up late at night worrying about over penetration.


:rofl: ^


You forgot to add the two pickups one heard of cattle, half acre of cactus and a Case tractor engine block, then the 300# bad guy ! :supergrin:


:countingsheep: This is the guy always worried about his loads and caliber and what it will/will not do. HAHA!


One worry in life I "ain't got." Your right amigo ! :)


To all the worry warts ! :tongueout:



Stay safe out there gentelmen !






CM

beforeobamabans
11-02-2010, 06:22
I'm just thrilled to once again see quality, American-made, brass 45acp target ammo for <$300/1000. Keep it coming Speer!

CanyonMan
11-02-2010, 08:49
I'm just thrilled to once again see quality, American-made, brass 45acp target ammo for <$300/1000. Keep it coming Speer!


Hey my friend, you bet ! good target ammo and a good price to boot.
Thanks for letting some of us nut cases have a bit of fun on the thread here. Can't hardly get us together with out it. ;)

I also appreciate the PM you sent me, giving me the heads up on this ammo and the link to it. It will be good plinkin playin stuff, and can still be used for another thing or two. ;) It is getting harder all the time to find good quality American made anything.

AK. Hiker told me of some 45acp RNFP that I thought he said was 230gr with a decent meplat on it. Maybe I am mistaken. :dunno: I lost the info he gave me. I would like to find some to reload and carry.

AK, if your out there, where did you come across this ?


beforeobamabans, Thanks again amigo. Never stop sharing with me/us, when you come across something good. Thanks for the thread. ;)



CanyonMan

Ak.Hiker
11-02-2010, 09:18
Magtech sells a 230 grain FMJ-SWC product number BU45B. At one time Hornady was selling a 230 grain FMJFP. This is the bullet Buffalo Bore loads in their 45acp+P 230 grain FMJFP load. The BB load is a very good penetration load as I have tested it out. The best I have found in the 45 acp.

CanyonMan
11-02-2010, 11:51
Magtech sells a 230 grain FMJ-SWC product number BU45B. At one time Hornady was selling a 230 grain FMJFP. This is the bullet Buffalo Bore loads in their 45acp+P 230 grain FMJFP load. The BB load is a very good penetration load as I have tested it out. The best I have found in the 45 acp.


Many thanks AK. I will make sure and not loose the info this time. ;)
In fact I'm going to look it up right now.

Looks pretty good. Also in my searching I found the WWB 230gr FMJFN.
I guess I been reloading to long. I did not know they even made this. Problem is I cannot find any. :faint:

I looked at the BB you mentioned but it don't quite llok like what I see (for reloading) that Hornady offers. Maybe they changeg or I am looking at something all wrong. :dunno:

I just want the largest meplat I can find on a 230gr FMJ FN.

Well AK, thanks again. I may order some of these (M.T.) and give them a try.


Stay safe amigo !




CanyonMan

481
11-02-2010, 13:06
How do you think the 185 TMJ would compare to a standard 230 grain hardball load in gel?

Good question, AK.

Nearly identical penetration from both loads.

Employing MacPherson's model (as I am prone to do :winkie:, just ask CM), a .45 ACP 230 gr. FMJRN at 825 fps should produce 29.081 inches of penetration against calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin whereas the .45 ACP 185 gr. FMJFP at 1050 fps produces 29.232 inches in the same media.

The increased sectional density of the heavier load despite its lower velocity compensates for the lower drag coefficient (the FMJPF has a lower cavitation velocity and is therefore a more "efficient" penetrator) of the lighter load.

Cool stuff. :cool:

ETA: Since I know that this is gonna be asked...

A .45 ACP 230 gr. FMJFP at 825 fps should provide 31.378 inches of penetration in calibrated ordnance gelatin according to MacPherson's penetration model.

:supergrin:

481
11-02-2010, 13:13
So Now I am an "extremist" Eh? :rofl:

Only 29" of penetration ! You insult me amigo ! :tongueout:

And yes I do agree with the things you said in your post. ;)

Stay safe my friend.

CM

Yeah, I know CM. You prefer loads that'll penetrate an armored car lengthwise, defeat a weathered old mequite bramble 300 yards deep and then zip through three armed bad guys (as they stand sideways).

You are the epitome of "extreme" my friend.

CanyonMan
11-02-2010, 13:48
Yeah, I know CM. You prefer loads that'll penetrate an armored car lengthwise, defeat a weathered old mequite bramble 300 yards deep and then zip through three armed bad guys (as they stand sideways).
You are the epitome of "extreme" my friend.


Well, that is a start ! :tongueout:



Just for the record. Seriously.

I do require a minimum of 14" penetration, and between 14" to 18"/20" (a tad more is even better) penetration for ALL my SD carry loads.

Not that this matters, but I noticed that even in reading MacPhersons book (bullet penetration) he also sugged 14-18" penetration. (if I remember correctly). But this has just been a "standard for me" forever I guess, for reasons that are "good to me."


Of course in the Ruger hog legs shooting Hard Cast bullets all that changes to: Can't have enough Pen. ! Simply put. :supergrin:



Good shooting boys





CanyonMan

481
11-02-2010, 16:49
Well, that is a start ! :tongueout:

Just for the record. Seriously.

I do require a minimum of 14" penetration, and between 14" to 18"/20" (a tad more is even better) penetration for ALL my SD carry loads.

Not that this matters, but I noticed that even in reading MacPhersons book (bullet penetration) he also sugged 14-18" penetration. (if I remember correctly). But this has just been a "standard for me" forever I guess, for reasons that are "good to me."

Of course in the Ruger hog legs shooting Hard Cast bullets all that changes to: Can't have enough Pen. ! Simply put. :supergrin:

Good shooting boys

CanyonMan

You are correct. Recommended penetration for JHPs is "about" 14 inches per MacPherson's book (see page 298), but much like you, I like to see a little more penetration from my SD ammo, hence the XTPs.

14-16 inches "gets it done" in my book and once penetration begins to exceed the 18" mark, we get dangerously close to sacrificing permanent wound cavity mass (Mw) in the pursuit of generating more penetration (Xcm). I find the balance (for what I want) to be what MacPherson recommends plus two inches.

Of course, YMMV. We are of a mind.

NonPCnraRN
11-02-2010, 18:42
Many thanks AK. I will make sure and not loose the info this time. ;)
In fact I'm going to look it up right now.

Looks pretty good. Also in my searching I found the WWB 230gr FMJFN.
I guess I been reloading to long. I did not know they even made this. Problem is I cannot find any. :faint:

I looked at the BB you mentioned but it don't quite llok like what I see (for reloading) that Hornady offers. Maybe they changeg or I am looking at something all wrong. :dunno:

I just want the largest meplat I can find on a 230gr FMJ FN.

Well AK, thanks again. I may order some of these (M.T.) and give them a try.


Stay safe amigo !




CanyonMan

Fellow big bore lead slinger aka CM: Why not load a Beartooth 255 gr WFN with Unique for a load equivalent to the old 255 gr RNFP for the Colt Model P. IIRC John Taffin uses 6.0+ gr of Unique with a 255 gr SWC. The WFN should work fine with the same charge weight. Over on the 1911 forum a shooter uses the Beartooth 265 gr WFN in the ACP. He gets 940 fps out of a 5 inch 1911 with a 20 lb recoil spring. Both bullets have a .36 inch meplat which is 80% of caliber. I think I would leave well enough alone and just use the 255 gr bullet. Springco makes a drop in dual spring recoil reducer that replaces the guide rod and recoil spring in the 1911. It will prevent any frame battering especially if you use their "CORBON" model which is for a steady diet of 45 ACP +P, 45 Super and heavy bullet 45 ACP loads. It is strictly drop in so you can switch back and forth depending on what ammo you are using. The Springco CORBON recoil reducer works so well you have to use powerfull ammo (+P) or the gun won't function. You can use 45 Super brass and easily get 950 fps out of a full sized 1911. The WFN is a better bullet than the RNFP of the original 45 Colt and that was no slouch in the fight stopping dept whether 2 legged or 4 legged. The Super brass helps you identify the higher pressure ammo so it doesn't find its way into a normally set up 1911. How many bad guys does 50 inches of gel equal? Penetration? What penetration?
:rofl:

CanyonMan
11-03-2010, 12:48
Fellow big bore lead slinger aka CM: Why not load a Beartooth 255 gr WFN with Unique for a load equivalent to the old 255 gr RNFP for the Colt Model P. IIRC John Taffin uses 6.0+ gr of Unique with a 255 gr SWC. The WFN should work fine with the same charge weight. Over on the 1911 forum a shooter uses the Beartooth 265 gr WFN in the ACP. He gets 940 fps out of a 5 inch 1911 with a 20 lb recoil spring. Both bullets have a .36 inch meplat which is 80% of caliber. I think I would leave well enough alone and just use the 255 gr bullet. Springco makes a drop in dual spring recoil reducer that replaces the guide rod and recoil spring in the 1911. It will prevent any frame battering especially if you use their "CORBON" model which is for a steady diet of 45 ACP +P, 45 Super and heavy bullet 45 ACP loads. It is strictly drop in so you can switch back and forth depending on what ammo you are using. The Springco CORBON recoil reducer works so well you have to use powerfull ammo (+P) or the gun won't function. You can use 45 Super brass and easily get 950 fps out of a full sized 1911. The WFN is a better bullet than the RNFP of the original 45 Colt and that was no slouch in the fight stopping dept whether 2 legged or 4 legged. The Super brass helps you identify the higher pressure ammo so it doesn't find its way into a normally set up 1911. How many bad guys does 50 inches of gel equal? Penetration? What penetration?
:rofl:


LOL..

Yeah, Marshall Stanton at Bear tooth bullets and I are good friends and have been for 10 + years I guess. He turned me on to the 225 gr HC bullet for the 45acp several years back, and with MY loads at 50 yds with my M1911 it will blow a hole from end to end on a chest shot buck ! ;) Good stuff !

For carry in my 45's "even tough I am a penetration freak," HA, I do prefer the 230gr RNFP FMJ as it won't plow through near like that HC bullet of Marshalls Ha. I do like the 230gr WW PDX1 as well very much. I roll all my own carry ammo "unless" I am using the PDX1 or the 230gr Hornady XTP, and even at that I wil still roll my own carry stuff if I find a box of 230gr XTP's.

I load with 230gr, ball or xtp with 7.7grs Power Pistol, and this gives me the best accuracy even at very long ranges 35/50 yds back down to 7yds, and packs about 940/955 fps + (depending on gun used at the time) even works VERY well in my little G36.

Man that sucker (the G36) loves those hotter loads. I know that they are not needed in the 45acp, and only 850/875 fps is plenty good. BUT, my guns love this above load here, and are 'more than extremely accurate' with it, and during rapid fire drills with the M1911's and even out of the G30/G36 all shots are in one small ragged hole while standing, and in a 'very small' COM/and head shot cluster while 'on the run' and doing more "active" shooting.

I have a 22# spring in my M1911's and run a 22# spring in the G36/G30 as well. All excellent shooters with this 7.7gr load PP with 230 gr Ball, XTP's and Golden Sabers, and WW 230gr JHP's. COAL 1.250


As you know, I DO use the WNFP HC bullets in ALL my big bore hog legs, and 'some' in the 45acp out on the ranch, but even for me, when I do go to town, I use the (above mentioned) loads in the M1911 Mex carry 45acp. I have really yet to find the FMJ RNFP 45acp bullet to reload that I am happy with (that is the 'meplat').

I think I am going to buy a box of WWB 230gr 45acp RN FP, and pull the bullets, and load them with my 7.7 PP, and see how that works in various media and testing. :dunno:

I have not had trouble thus far with "frame battering," of any kind even in the Kimber Pro Carry II, The 22# Wolff spring has been more than enough with 900 +fps loads. It is an all steel frame and reciever, and just like the other M1911's he has not had a burp hiccup or a battering at all thus far... Whew! ha.

I have not used the 45 super brass yet out of all these years, but so far, M1911's or Glocks, I have not had an issue running my standard brass at 900+fps and reloading the fool out of them. Been doing it for a long time with no issues ! ;) I will admit though that I do shoot more with 845/875fps out of the guns '"for play and plinking", but for serious carry work, or a 50yd deer hunt (rare with the 45acp for me) I always carry the above mentioned loads.

Amigo, I would carry those WFN in the 45acp in a heart beat to town, but I "Know" what they are capable of and although I LOVE IT, Ha, I better stick with the other stuff above... haha. Their fine on the ranch though !



Well, I am rambling (whats new) ha, so I best get outta here...
I am thrilled to meet someone "like minded here." You think good amigo ! I like it man. :wavey:

You've made me want to call Marshall and get some more of those HC for my 45acp ! Dang ya.. :rofl:



Good shooting bud.




CanyonMan

NonPCnraRN
11-04-2010, 11:06
Darn it CM: Now you got me thinking of pulling the 255 gr RNFP from the Buffalo Bore ammo and subsituting a Beartooth 255 gr WFN. The scary part is that alcohol consumption did not precede this idea. :shocked:

CanyonMan
11-04-2010, 12:41
Darn it CM: Now you got me thinking of pulling the 255 gr RNFP from the Buffalo Bore ammo and subsituting a Beartooth 255 gr WFN. The scary part is that alcohol consumption did not precede this idea. :shocked:


:rofl:


Well, why not ! It will give you something new and exciting to do, and just think of the fun you'll have and the stories you can tell us in your report on how it blew something up down range ! :supergrin: You'll like those 255 BT's amigo ! ;)

Out with the old, and in with the new. HA HA!



Have fun.



CM

NonPCnraRN
11-06-2010, 19:16
:rofl:


Well, why not ! It will give you something new and exciting to do, and just think of the fun you'll have and the stories you can tell us in your report on how it blew something up down range ! :supergrin: You'll like those 255 BT's amigo ! ;)

Out with the old, and in with the new. HA HA!



Have fun.



CM

As long as it blows up down range and not on the firing line. :whistling:

CanyonMan
11-07-2010, 10:54
]As long as it blows up down range and not on the firing line[/B]. :whistling:


:rofl:

I don't think thats goin to happen amigo ! haha.


I do not know what powder you intend to use with the beartooth 255gr, but here are some thoughts for ya;

B.T. 255GR HC for deer out to 50yds (my max suggestion)

7.5gr AA# 5 coal 1.250- 1.248 (if that works better in your gun) for 50yd deer. Pass right through a buck if your shot is good.

Same as above with 5.3- 5.4 unique 870/890fps work it up slow could go higher, but I'll let you determine that for yourself. :supergrin: What I do is one thing, but I hate to "overload other guy". ;)

Make sure you have a minimum of a 22# wolff spring, that has worked for me, and 24#'s is very good as well, if you are going to pop a good deal of these. Also, an ALL steel frame is best.

So, if ya want a deer popper using these loads and bullet, there ya go.

OR, you could just use a BB FMJ Flat point, OR a 230gr XTP loaded with (my favorite) 7.7grs B. D. 1.250, and stay around 35yds with your shots.


You'll be fine with any of these: Personally I like the 7.5grs AA#5 best,for255gr BT HC, and 230gr FMJ flat point/230gr XTP with the 7.7grs BD next.

The 7.7grs BD coal 1.250 is my EDC carry load, and at 930/950fps. Depending on what I shoot it out of. I even use this loading in my little G36. He loves it and is accurate as heck out at 35yds for very small enough groups to take a deer. (have not done it yet with the G36) just saying that it seems 7.7grs BD in ALL my 45acp's has the most extreme tight groups I have ever witnessed.


Well, have fun amigo !



CM

gatorboy
11-08-2010, 08:15
Good question, AK.

Nearly identical penetration from both loads.

Employing MacPherson's model (as I am prone to do :winkie:, just ask CM), a .45 ACP 230 gr. FMJRN at 825 fps should produce 29.081 inches of penetration against calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin whereas the .45 ACP 185 gr. FMJFP at 1050 fps produces 29.232 inches in the same media.

The increased sectional density of the heavier load despite its lower velocity compensates for the lower drag coefficient (the FMJPF has a lower cavitation velocity and is therefore a more "efficient" penetrator) of the lighter load.

Cool stuff. :cool:

ETA: Since I know that this is gonna be asked...

A .45 ACP 230 gr. FMJFP at 825 fps should provide 31.378 inches of penetration in calibrated ordnance gelatin according to MacPherson's penetration model.

:supergrin:

I'm not familiar with the MacPherson model. What's the formula to get the penetration totals in inches? What would a 200 gr. truncated .451 TMJ @ 1000 and then 1050 get using the formula? I looked around and could'nt find much but then I don't have the time this morning. I'll try to look back here on my phone this afternoon, thanks in advance.

481
11-08-2010, 12:27
I'm not familiar with the MacPherson model. What's the formula to get the penetration totals in inches? What would a 200 gr. truncated .451 TMJ @ 1000 and then 1050 get using the formula? I looked around and could'nt find much but then I don't have the time this morning. I'll try to look back here on my phone this afternoon, thanks in advance.

gatorboy,

The MacPherson WTI model is a predictive model that employs a set of fluid dynamics equations that permit one to determine first the cavitation regime boundary (Vc as defined by its velocity "boundary") of a specified bullet diameter and configuration (drag coefficent) and then calculate, using the appropriate second equation set, the permanent wound cavity mass (Mw) and then, with a third, even simpler equation, the terminal penetration depth (Xcm) of that bullet at a specified velocity.

While it is far too lengthy to present here, it exceeds the Peter's model (a slightly simpler hybrid equation) in its accuracy by an impressive margin and once one becomes familiar with running the numbers a few times it gets a little simpler to punch into the calculator.

I would suggest obtaining a copy of MacPherson's book, "Bullet Penetration", for a more thorough treatment of the topic and the equations in their entireity. Be prepared for a lot of math (calculus, algebra, trigonometry/geometry) and the ability to work through these rather 'esoteric' equations.

The (predicted) penetration depths in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin for the bullet and the velocities that you specified are:

Vc = 467.895 fps

Xin for a 200 gr. truncated .451 TMJ @ 1000 fps: 30.729 inches

Xin for a 200 gr. truncated .451 TMJ @ 1050 fps: 31.602 inches

I hope that this somewhat limited response is of assistance to you.


:)