44-40 for deer [Archive] - Glock Talk

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RWBlue
10-16-2010, 18:54
If you were hunting deer with a 44-40, which load would you use? Why?

Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
200 gr (13 g) lead 1,245 ft/s (379 m/s) 688 ft·lbf (933 J)
217 gr (14.1 g) lead 1,190 ft/s (360 m/s) 682 ft·lbf (925 J)
225 gr (14.6 g) lead 750 ft/s (230 m/s) 281 ft·lbf (381 J)

Glolt20-91
10-16-2010, 19:29
What are the shapes of the bullets, SWC or WFN?

Bob :cowboy:

RWBlue
10-16-2010, 19:47
What are the shapes of the bullets, SWC or WFN?

Bob :cowboy:

These would be traditional lever action loads. Flat nose, but not SWC.

G19aps
10-16-2010, 20:08
One of the first two. Higher velocity would be a little flatter shooting and since it's non expanding, should penetrate better if you take a less than optimum shot.
Though I think an expanding bullet is a better choice.

Jim Watson
10-16-2010, 20:36
The first load is the standard Winchester load, the second is the Marlin spec. Either will do anything necessary to a deer if you hit it right.

I don't understand the 3rd load; 25 grains of lead is not going to cost you 400-500 fps. That looks more like revolver ballistics. I would expect about 1100 fps from a rifle.

RWBlue
10-16-2010, 21:10
The first load is the standard Winchester load, the second is the Marlin spec. Either will do anything necessary to a deer if you hit it right.

I don't understand the 3rd load; 25 grains of lead is not going to cost you 400-500 fps. That looks more like revolver ballistics. I would expect about 1100 fps from a rifle.

I pulled the data from Wikipedia, there could be a screw up, or maybe it is pistol velocity.





BTW, This is theory background. I don't have a 44-40. But ......it looks like fun.

BOGE
10-16-2010, 23:45
I have several 44-40`s, however I load real blackpowder in my cartridges. :supergrin: Having said that, bullet design is everything & factory fodder is weak stuff downloaded for antique arms and I would not recommend it for hunting at all. For a decent hunting load you`re going to have to reload.

RWBlue
10-18-2010, 19:34
I have several 44-40`s, however I load real blackpowder in my cartridges. :supergrin: Having said that, bullet design is everything & factory fodder is weak stuff downloaded for antique arms and I would not recommend it for hunting at all. For a decent hunting load you`re going to have to reload.

Well the load data above should be historically correct BP loads, so...Which one would you go for and why?

Gunnut 45/454
10-18-2010, 22:08
Use a SWC or WFN bullet with either of the first loadings and you'll have a great deer rifle out to 125 yards! Just make sure you can put them on a pie plate at that range and you'd be golden!! Just bust them in the shoulder and they should drop at the shot!:supergrin:

NonPCnraRN
10-18-2010, 23:08
You could get the same or better killing ability from a 40 S&W 200 gr WFNGC (.30" meplat) out of a Glock 23. I'd use a hardcast 240 WFN .429 bullet (.34" meplat) at about 1200 fps out of a carbine. Doable out of a modern 92 clone or Ruger Blackhawk. With nonexpanding bullets it is the meplat size and impact velocity that determines wound size. The meplat on the RNFP bullets in the loads you listed don't have that big a meplat (.26").

BOGE
10-18-2010, 23:25
Well the load data above should be historically correct BP loads, so...Which one would you go for and why?

Do you handload real BP cartridges? If so, the most you can get in a modern solid head case & seat the bullet is about 37 gr. FFg. You will need a PROPERLY lubed & sized BP bullet. Smokeless lube won`t cut it. SPG lube is the benchmark for real BP.

NonPCnraRN
10-18-2010, 23:32
Do you handload real BP cartridges? If so, the most you can get in a modern solid head case & seat the bullet is about 37 gr. FFg. You will need a PROPERLY lubed & sized BP bullet. Smokeless lube won`t cut it. SPG lube is the benchmark for real BP.

How fast are follow-up shots when you are shooting Holy Black?

BOGE
10-18-2010, 23:36
How fast are follow-up shots when you are shooting Holy Black?

Just as fast as smokeless unless there is zero wind whereas you need to move a tad to view.

Gunnut 45/454
10-18-2010, 23:37
NonPCnraRN
I dead soft SWC or WFN will mushroom quite nicely! I've run soft lead through my rifles in 45 LC at the 1200-1400 fps range and they Mushroomed very well! They blow up Jack rabbits quite nicely!:supergrin:

NonPCnraRN
10-18-2010, 23:52
NonPCnraRN
I dead soft SWC or WFN will mushroom quite nicely! I've run soft lead through my rifles in 45 LC at the 1200-1400 fps range and they Mushroomed very well! They blow up Jack rabbits quite nicely!:supergrin:

Sounds good. The barrel must be very smooth and the bullets tight in the bore to prevent gas blow by. Do they have gaschecks or are they plain base? I love guns that take game with old school technology, especially if you cast them yourself.

RWBlue
10-19-2010, 08:01
Do you handload real BP cartridges? If so, the most you can get in a modern solid head case & seat the bullet is about 37 gr. FFg. You will need a PROPERLY lubed & sized BP bullet. Smokeless lube won`t cut it. SPG lube is the benchmark for real BP.


As is, the only BP traditional cartridges I have are 45-70 and 45LC. Both of which are fun to shoot with trailboss handloads. I "should" be able to replicate any BP load with TB. Then the question is, do I want the cleaning involved with BP or not. Do I want the smoke with BP?

At this point, I am trying to decide if it is worthwhile to look for a 44-40 OR move forward with 45LC.

CanyonMan
10-19-2010, 08:42
As is, the only BP traditional cartridges I have are 45-70 and 45LC. Both of which are fun to shoot with trailboss handloads. I "should" be able to replicate any BP load with TB. Then the question is, do I want the cleaning involved with BP or not. Do I want the smoke with BP?

At this point, I am trying to decide if it is worthwhile to look for a 44-40 OR move forward with 45LC.



44-40 is fun to be sure, and most certainly can take deer. They been doing it a long time. But since you ask, I would highly suggest the 45LC over the 44-40. Especially if you plan to do alot of hunting. There is no comparison here 'between the two' (rifle or hog leg) when it comes to a 'hunting gun'.

I've been shooting that caliber (45LC) forever and a day it seems. I put a winchester 45LC in my sons hands when he was little, and with my reloads of 275gr Hard Cast, he cleans the plow on deer, and makes for a good elk/bear rifle as well. He shoots open sights mostly on everything, except of course the 7mag. ha.

I like what Boge said about the BP loads. Those are really fun especially (to me) out of the pistols, and they most certainly can do more damage on a close range deer than folks think. Just hate the cleanup. But shootin sure is fun...

The 45LC and the 45-70 lever guns will take down (properly loaded, about anything you want to hunt... ;)


Good luck
Good shooting





CM

BOGE
10-19-2010, 10:58
...I "should" be able to replicate any BP load with TB...

Can you ``replicate`` making love with a rubber doll? The answer is no. REAL BP is another experience that CANNOT be duplicated. It is total BS about cleanup. I can clean a BP gun in less than half the time needed to clean a smokeless weapon and need no harsh chemicals to boot.

RWBlue
10-19-2010, 11:07
Can you ``replicate`` making love with a rubber doll? The answer is no. REAL BP is another experience that CANNOT be duplicated. It is total BS about cleanup. I can clean a BP gun in less than half the time needed to clean a smokeless weapon and need no harsh chemicals to boot.

I have shot other BP guns. Hawken clones, Encore, ball and cap, Lyman pistol, flintlock pistol.

The clean up is different between smokeless and BP. With BP, I need to clean that day. With smokeless, I don't clean every time I shoot. It is not needed.

So I may not EVER shoot BP in my cartridge guns. On the other hand, I may ever once and a while for fun.

CanyonMan
10-19-2010, 11:59
Can you ``replicate`` making love with a rubber doll? The answer is no. REAL BP is another experience that CANNOT be duplicated. It is total BS about cleanup. I can clean a BP gun in less than half the time needed to clean a smokeless weapon and need no harsh chemicals to boot.


Oh, I won't say that.. I been shooting smoke poles of all kinds since I was a kid. I have yet to see ONE, that I could clean faster than a non BP powder load, OR, one that I could let sit around for a long time without cleaning like with Non BP powder.

I'm not saying it is a "chore" to clean BP, just time consuming 'as compared' to non BP was my meaning.. Hot water and some swabbin and your done. But they are more dirty to clean than a non BP powder. ;)






CM

Gunnut 45/454
10-19-2010, 14:18
NonPCnraRN
My 255gr SWC LEE mold is not gas checked! Slug your bore and size your bullets .002" over bore and you shouldn't have blow by with most powders! The faster burn rate powders seem to create more blow by in my experience! My 300/325 gr WFN cast bullets are gas checked! If you still get leading then you might have a ruff bore! Easy fix! :supergrin:

BOGE
10-19-2010, 16:00
Oh, I won't say that.. I been shooting smoke poles of all kinds since I was a kid. I have yet to see ONE, that I could clean faster than a non BP powder load, OR, one that I could let sit around for a long time without cleaning like with Non BP powder...


We`re talking BP CARTRIDGE GUNS here & not a ML. The gun in question is a lever action rifle. With about five patches I can clean a Henry or `66 repro. BP rearely causes leading such as smokeless and there is no nasty copper fouling to deal with. Maybe no one has shown you how to properly clean a BP gun, grandpa. :supergrin:

:tongueout:

CanyonMan
10-19-2010, 16:26
We`re talking BP CARTRIDGE GUNS here & not a ML. The gun in question is a lever action rifle. With about five patches I can clean a Henry or `66 repro. BP rearely causes leading such as smokeless and there is no nasty copper fouling to deal with. Maybe no one has shown you how to properly clean a BP gun, grandpa. :supergrin:

:tongueout:


I understand what a BP gun is. Been shooting them since I was a very little kid. I understand how to clean them properly as well, and have won tourement shoots with them. I have killed record book game with them. But you cannot convince me ( if i am understanding you correctly) that it is quicker to clean a 'BP ONLY GUN' that a non black powder gun shooting modern propellent.... Sorry. That won't float. :supergrin:



CM

CanyonMan
10-19-2010, 17:52
Boge,

For making sure we're both on the same page here. You are talking about a rifle like a Henry that uses metalic cartridge, shoots all lead (no copper etc) but the propellant is still Genuine Black Powder, not modern powder, and NOT pyrodex, but 100% just plain old black powder... Is 'this' what you are talking about?

I understand well the hot water down the tube of the ML, 'and' the difference between a ML, front stuffer, than a breech loading/metalic cartrige rifle that, (like the 44-40) and a number of others as well, load with a metalic cartridge and still use True Black Powder, as in depending upon caliber et; any where from 1FG to 3FG..

I understand the swabbing out of some of these with a patch/cloth, but at the same time, if your talking true genuine Black Powder in the metalic cartridge, well, I give mine more care than that. Besides, even 5-6 passes with a patch 'is still more than one has to do with say a modern propellant 30-30'. This was my point. I guess i misunderstood you some where. And you did me as well, as I di not make myself clear or somethin. :dunno:

:tongueout: Back at ya amigo. Being a 'grandpa' is good. Means ya been around the block a time or two. ;)



Stay safe





CM

RWBlue
10-19-2010, 18:32
The gun in question is a lever action rifle.

And a pistol


With about five patches I can clean a Henry or `66 repro. Maybe no one has shown you how to properly clean a BP gun, grandpa.

Tell me more.
Maybe I am over cleaning my BP guns.

BOGE
10-19-2010, 20:36
Canyon Man, I only shoot real BP, no faux substitue garbage for me.

Let me state that if anyone needs longer to clean a BP CARTRIDGE rifle or pistol than a smokeless then they are going about it wrong. Instead of a long winded reply I will link a website that shows how fast seasoned BP shooters can clean a weapon:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,10404.0.html

CanyonMan
10-19-2010, 20:50
Canyon Man, I only shoot real BP, no faux substitue garbage for me.

Let me state that if anyone needs longer to clean a BP CARTRIDGE rifle or pistol than a smokeless then they are going about it wrong. Instead of a long winded reply I will link a website that shows how fast seasoned BP shooters can clean a weapon:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,10404.0.html






Well, for almost once, you and I are really saying the same thing... haha
I use a couple of these methods that were on your link to clean up as well..

Man some how just got the wires crossed between us as happens at times. My fault.

Been there and done that with these shooters 'for a good many years'..
Misunderstood your meaning there at first. But still disagree that the smokless powder guns don't need as much attension as the BP guns... ;)

LET ME REPHRASE that last comment, It is NOT what I meant to say.....

But still disagree that smokless powder guns need more attension in cleaning than BP guns.. ;) This, Is the way that should have read. ;)




Good shooting




CM

BOGE
10-19-2010, 23:01
...But still disagree that the smokless powder guns don't need as much attension as the BP guns... ;)


Good shooting




CM


CM, I`m not talking about not cleaning the barrel or chambers but rather cleaning the both the barrel & chambers THOROUGHLY. It takes me far longer to clean a Ruger with smokeless than my Colt SAA with BP. I just toss the cylinder of the Colt into the sink & let it soak while I clean out the ``window`` and barrel. When that`s done I rinse off the cylinder and after a few patches I`m done. Circa 10 mins. or less.

CanyonMan
10-20-2010, 06:20
CM, I`m not talking about not cleaning the barrel or chambers but rather cleaning the both the barrel & chambers THOROUGHLY. It takes me far longer to clean a Ruger with smokeless than my Colt SAA with BP. I just toss the cylinder of the Colt into the sink & let it soak while I clean out the ``window`` and barrel. When that`s done I rinse off the cylinder and after a few patches I`m done. Circa 10 mins. or less.


I see what your trying to say now. My wife is a fan of me cleaning all BP guns of any type "outside" though. Like I said before. Hot water. ;)

BP is BP. ML or Metalic BP Cartridge. I'll start letting you clean up my guns. Still a hassle 'to me' and always has been.

They are fun to shoot though and especially when your shooting at game and got the wind in your face and got to duck and dodge the smoke to see if they dropped or ran. :supergrin:


Made a correction on post # 27. I wrote down what I did not mean to say. ;)



Have fun !





CM

Ak.Hiker
10-21-2010, 23:29
We could have a new sport from this post. Instead of a shooting match a gun cleanning match. I like you CM but I think I will put my money this time on BOGE.