The forged vs cast thing is driving me up the wall [Archive] - Glock Talk

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mr00jimbo
10-17-2010, 11:28
I can't get a straight answer. I am saving up some dough for a 1911 and I figure a thousand or so should do it.

But I can't seem to get an answer whether or not a cast frame is going to be inferior, or if forged is better. It seems people say a good cast can be good, but will never touch forged.

So now I am looking at Sig Sauer's offerings in 1911s, and I thought they were forged. Nope, cast....apparently. But they're very highly regarded. Same with the STI Trojan, which is supposed to be an amazing gun. Cast frame.

So then people will say, "Well there you go, great guns use cast." But if you go up the STI ladder, they start becoming forged frames, which makes me believe that the casting was a budget alternative and is used to keep cost down (at the expense of strength/quality).

Then Caspian, a not cheap 1911 frame, is cast. So are most Dan Wessons, which again, aren't cheap. Hell, many competition 1911s, that see high round counts, are cast.

But you can buy a much cheaper Springfield that's forged.

I know I will never shoot as many rounds through this gun as to test the strength of the metal. But it drives me nuts to think the gun may potentially use inferior methods or frame or whatever. Kind of like buying a luxury car and finding out the leather is actually vinyl to cut down on costs, or it has hubcaps.

It seems it would bother me, with what I know now, to spend good money on a cast-frame 1911, not because I worry about its long term reliability but because they 'cut a corner' in making it when others do it 'the right way.'

Somebody set me straight here. :whistling:

bac1023
10-17-2010, 11:30
I wouldn't worry about it, quite frankly.

The cast slide is what brings concern.








.

Quack
10-17-2010, 11:32
it's not an issue (just like MIM) if it's made properly.

the before 2009, all Dan Wessons (except for the Valor) were cast.

Reason forged Springfields are less expensive is because they are forged in Brazil.

bac1023
10-17-2010, 11:39
Sigs I thought were forged.


...or at least I know they were when I bought mine.

Quack
10-17-2010, 11:40
Sigs I thought were forged.


...or at least I know they were when I bought mine.

weren't teh original Sig's built on Caspian frames before they moved to in-house manufacturing?

bac1023
10-17-2010, 11:45
weren't teh original Sig's built on Caspian frames before they moved to in-house manufacturing?

I thought they were the forged Caspians though.

God only knows. :dunno:

syr74
10-17-2010, 11:47
Personal experience in the manufacturing field has given me a bias toward forged components, but that same experience has taught me that a good casting can be better than a poor forging.....so there are a lot of variables.

Colt and Wilson Combat both use forgings and the quality of the steel used within these and the heat treatment applied to them seems to receive a lot of accolades in both cases. Then again, I spoke with somebody from Olympic Arms the other day who confirmed with me that both their frames and slides are produced from castings, the latter of which automatically leads me to prop an eyebrow; and yet the Schuetzen Pistol Works has a very good reputation for quality and durability as best as I can tell.

I think the solution is for me to buy a collection of 1911's as large as Bac's making certain that I get a good variety of types of manufacture so I can personally determine how this all works. Now to go tell the wife that this needs to be done for the good of the 1911 community at large......

mr00jimbo
10-17-2010, 11:50
Sigs I thought were forged.


...or at least I know they were when I bought mine.

I thought so too, google has brought me to a couple sites that claim they're cast, but nothing solid.

Quack
10-17-2010, 11:54
i'mm 99% sure that i recall that the Sig/Caspian frames were cast.

CA_DUDE
10-17-2010, 12:00
FWIW, after Browning/FN started making .40 S&W Hi Powers, they started using cast frames over forged. Can't remember if there was a problem with frames or rails cracking. As far as I understand (I'm probably completely wrong) Forging is a bit harder, but more brittle. Cast are a little softer but a little more resilient. I have a Kimber II, and I thought they were forged, but now who knows. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I don't think a quality 1911 with a cast frame is inferior in any way.

Quack
10-17-2010, 12:00
Early article (~2004) on the Sig GSR.

http://www.gunweek.com/2004/feature0310.html

To ensure the fit and finish, Sig Arms uses a cast stainless steel frame and a forged stainless steel slide. The frame is cast to cut down on the required machining to finish the pistol. With the pounding the slide takes, it is forged, since forgings are somewhat stronger than a casting. For what it's worth, IPSC pistols have been built on cast frames for years and endure thousands of rounds; yes, cast frames can take the abuse.

bac1023
10-17-2010, 12:03
That's cool.

Its been said many times that the frames were forged, but that shows you that you can't assume anything.

solomansousana
10-17-2010, 12:04
Frankly, unless you plan on putting several hundred thousand rounds through it, I wouldn't worry. For me, my PERSONAL PREFERENCE is forged, as I do anywhere from 1500 to 3000 rounds a month. That said, I've a Safari Arms Matchmaster, forged frame with over 120k rounds without issues, I've also got an Essex cast frame with near the same round count and it's still looking brand new.

If it's well made and maintained, and you don't use over pressured ammo all the time, you shouldn't have an issue either way you go.

LOL, I've also got a Caspian Arms Titanium 1911 frame with almost all titanium parts mated to a Colt Gold Cup National Match stainless slide and I don't think there's enough rounds in the world to wear it down.

GVFlyer
10-17-2010, 12:29
i'mm 99% sure that i recall that the Sig/Caspian frames were cast.

I have an early Sig Sauer Nitron Black 1911 GSR. It has a cast Caspian frame and I like it.

http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq166/GVFlyer/GVFlyer/Sig1911GSR.jpg?t=1287498156

Here's another excellent old review of the Sig 1911 GSR that reflects the build on my gun.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/featured_handguns/granite_061404/

bac1023
10-17-2010, 12:39
Looks nice :)

Shipwreck-The-Sequel
10-17-2010, 12:42
The big question is - Was the actual Forge cast or not? http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/Smiley/smiley128-1.gif http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/Smiley/smiley128-1.gif http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/Smiley/smiley128-1.gif

Quack
10-17-2010, 12:46
well you've heard the term M4gery.

the Sig is a 1911forgery :rofl:

bac1023
10-17-2010, 12:55
well you've heard the term M4gery.

the Sig is a 1911forgery :rofl:

:animlol:

GVFlyer
10-17-2010, 13:07
well you've heard the term M4gery.

the Sig is a 1911forgery :rofl:

Maybe, does it matter? I had the Sig gunsmiths do the Trigger Enhancement and Action Enhancement packages on this gun, the results qualifying it to be my full size 1911 carry gun. The trigger now breaks cleanly at 4.0 lbs, the minimum for a carry gun (in my view).

remat
10-17-2010, 14:38
FWIW, after Browning/FN started making .40 S&W Hi Powers, they started using cast frames over forged. Can't remember if there was a problem with frames or rails cracking.

Trivia...
The early FBI 9mm to 40 conversions found that the forged frames were to too soft to handle the 40 and they went to the harder beefed up cast frames, it is now standard on both the 9mm and 40's.

More related trivia.....S&W M&P strikers are now MIM because they are harder.

If you don't like cast, Colt is a good choice as there are only 2 or 3 cast parts in it.

ajgranda
10-17-2010, 17:52
This is one of Nighthawks finest 1911 and it has a Caspian cast frame. I definitely would NOT be concerned about owning this one.



http://www.nighthawktactical.com/The_Enforcer.html

ajgranda
10-17-2010, 17:54
Maybe, does it matter? I had the Sig gunsmiths do the Trigger Enhancement and Action Enhancement packages on this gun, the results qualifying it to be my full size 1911 carry gun. The trigger now breaks cleanly at 4.0 lbs, the minimum for a carry gun (in my view).

Nice, IMO, 4-4.5lbs is perfect for a carry gun. That's what I ordered for my CQB.

.45Super-Man
10-17-2010, 19:01
When names such as Caspian, Dan Wesson and STI are using cast frames it's time to stop worrying.

Quack
10-17-2010, 19:25
When names such as Caspian, Dan Wesson and STI are using cast frames it's time to stop worrying.

/thread

bac1023
10-17-2010, 19:55
This is one of Nighthawks finest 1911 and it has a Caspian cast frame. I definitely would be concerned about owning this one.



http://www.nighthawktactical.com/The_Enforcer.html

The Enforcer is awesome. :cool:


http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n5/bac1023/006-4.jpg

carguy2244
10-17-2010, 20:12
I thought my Glock 20 was forged from plastic bar stock, but it turns out it's cast from melted remote control plastic.

Oh well.

bac1023
10-17-2010, 20:21
I thought my Glock 20 was forged from plastic bar stock, but it turns out it's cast from melted remote control plastic.

Oh well.

:rofl:

Tactical black
10-17-2010, 22:00
I thought my Glock 20 was forged from plastic bar stock, but it turns out it's cast from melted remote control plastic.

Oh well.

That made me laugh out loud very well done sir :rofl::rofl:

GVFlyer
10-18-2010, 06:48
well you've heard the term M4gery.

the Sig is a 1911forgery :rofl:

Did I mention that the Sig Sauer 1911 GSR has no MIM parts and a flat trigger is not an option? That makes it just about perfect.

:tongueout:

Hokie1911
10-18-2010, 07:01
I thought my Glock 20 was forged from plastic bar stock, but it turns out it's cast from melted remote control plastic.

Oh well.

Did I mention that the Sig Sauer 1911 GSR has no MIM parts and a flat trigger is not an option? That makes it just about perfect.

:tongueout:

:rofl:

ajgranda
10-18-2010, 07:03
The Enforcer is awesome. :cool:


http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n5/bac1023/006-4.jpg

I love that Enforcer and meant to say NOT concerned about its Caspian frame. WOW! Maybe I should look into a Commander version. :whistling:

BuckyP
10-18-2010, 07:26
Caspian wide body frames are cast AFAIK. ( I know, the purists cringe at "wide body 1911"). My first full out race gun is built on a Caspian frame. I have over 100,00 rounds of major 9x21 and .38 super ammo through this gun (many at old major, meaning 124s at 1450, 115s at 1550). I've broken just about every part on this gun over the years except the frame. I certainly wouldn't worry about cast frames.

deadite
10-18-2010, 10:32
So are most Dan Wessons, which again, aren't cheap. But you can buy a much cheaper Springfield that's forged.


The before 2009, all Dan Wessons (except for the Valor) were cast.

Reason forged Springfields are less expensive is because they are forged in Brazil.

When names such as Caspian, Dan Wesson and STI are using cast frames it's time to stop worrying.

I had similar concerns as you after I bought my new 2010 Dan Wesson PM7. Turns out the new 2010 DW's all have forged frames, which I think is pretty cool. I know it's not a big deal, but if you can have the slightly better frame, why not? :)

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq15/deadite_photos/guns%20with%20new%20camera/DSCN1939.jpg

+1 on the forged Springfield frames. They're forged in Brazil, BUT the fit and finish on my GI isn't as good, either.

Personally, I like forged.

deadite

mes228
10-18-2010, 13:12
I own a full custom 1911 built by 10X on a Caspian frame that I believe is cast. I also own a Springfield Pro (FBI HRT) and a Les Baer. All are top notch 1911's. I've not heard of any complaints and the beauty and performance of Caspian is second to none in my opinion. They are also a great bargain as you can order custom options from Caspian. I had mine ordered with flat top serrated slide, Ball Cuts, French Border, front and rear checkering on the grip, undercut trigger guard and checkering on the front guard. You can also order custom serial numbers from Caspian. Mine has my name initials followed by numbers. That just kinda personalizes the piece and makes it special to me. Also I'm so satisfied I'd do it again. Best of all you save a ton of money doing a custom that way.

MD357
10-18-2010, 13:21
Nothing wrong with Cast, I prefer Forged if I'm paying the money but there are other variables to consider aswell.

As long as someone stays away from Essex they'll be fine.
















wait for it......

bladeandbarrel
10-18-2010, 13:29
For frames, I prefer forged steel over cast for one reason-the final finish quality is better with forged or billet parts than castings. For slides, billet or forged is fine.

In barrels, I believe forged is the ONLY way to go for maximum strength. Wilson, Kimber, Nowlin and Kart are the only ones I am aware of that are currently machined from forgings, but I am probably wrong about that. Bar-Sto, Nighthawk, Fusion, STI, Jarvis, Storm-Lake and KKM are machined from bar-stock/billet.

Pender1
10-18-2010, 13:49
basically(and anyone here feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), most of the force goes into the slide, not the frame. Unless you're going to be doing A LOT of shooting, probably won't every be an issue.

CA_DUDE
10-18-2010, 14:09
I don't think there is an issue at all. For the folks that "prefer" forged, can you cite a single instance of a cast frame failure? Anybody know of any high round count cast frame failures? Anyone......anyone?

Tactical black
10-18-2010, 14:18
Nothing wrong with Cast, I prefer Forged if I'm paying the money but there are other variables to consider aswell.

As long as someone stays away from Essex they'll be fine.














wait for it......


http://thewarrenreport.com/wp-content/uploads/flipper.jpg might disagree :whistling: :rofl::rofl:

Nestor
10-18-2010, 14:32
I'm expecting Springfield Mili-Spec to arrive any time soon.
I bought it because I like the basic 1911 the best plus it has forged frame, slide and barrel.
You can have it for less than $1000 with the tax and shipping.

CA_DUDE
10-18-2010, 14:36
I'm expecting Springfield Mili-Spec to arrive any time soon.
I bought it because I like the basic 1911 the best plus it has forged frame, slide and barrel.
You can have it for less than $1000 with the tax and shipping.

You can find them for a lot less. Bud's has them shipped for $575.

Jim S.
10-18-2010, 16:01
Look we all know that forged frames are considered better but if a cast frame is made right it will last the life of the gun.
If it is going to have a problem it would more than likely surface relatively soon and there are not many gun manufacturers that would not fix it under warranty without a problem.
Even if it took a long time to have a crack or chip I would think that most reputable gun makers would take care of it.

Nestor
10-18-2010, 16:10
You can find them for a lot less. Bud's has them shipped for $575.

We are talking Canada here ;)

Johan Beer
10-18-2010, 17:47
Absolutely nothing wrong with cast from a good maker. That being said I would rather have forged from a good maker.

Wilson now makes a 100% forged and milled gun, the only company besides SVI to do this.

CA_DUDE
10-19-2010, 06:00
We are talking Canada here ;)

Ah, gotcha!

Rinspeed
10-19-2010, 07:45
Caspian wide body frames are cast AFAIK.




I'm pretty sure all Caspian frames are cast, they used to offer forged but not any more.

GVFlyer
10-19-2010, 08:32
The folks at Caspian are very friendly and helpful. If you call them, they will be happy to tell you why they think that cast frames are better.

You can get in touch with Gary at this number: (802)472-6454.