Wally World WWB 147 gr. JHP Performance? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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shaneroyce
10-18-2010, 17:48
Anyone have any thoughts on how good this round is for a primary SD weapon? Is it adequate, or would I be better off sticking to Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +p? I have no doubt the Speer (and others) are better ammo, just curious if anyone carries this as I am considering it. Thanks in advance.

ElectricZombie
10-18-2010, 18:01
Someone did a few tests on Youtube; it seemed to always overpenetrate.

Merkavaboy
10-18-2010, 21:48
There's been many threads about the Win 147JHP if you care to do a search. If you don't care to search out the threads, then my advise to you: Stick with the Gold Dot and use the Win 147 for punching holes in paper targets.

481
10-19-2010, 14:54
Although there are more recent designs, the 9mm WWB 147 gr. JHP offers adequate performance.

In the link provided below, Eugene Wolberg (SDPD) used 28 9mm WWB 147 gr. JHPs recovered at (human) autopsy to establish a strong correlation between their terminal performance and that of rounds (using the same type of ammunition, of course) fired into calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin for the purpose of terminal ballistic testing and evaluation:


http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf


Statistically, the performance of the 28 9mm WWB 147 gr. JHPs recovered and analysed for that article was:

Average Expanded/Recovered Diameter: 0.541 inch (1.525x caliber)
Average Retained Weight: 139.1 grains (94.63% retained weight)
Average Penetration Depth: 13.2 inches



Not too shabby for "economy" ammunition if you ask me.

:)

BOGE
10-19-2010, 15:51
481, that`s a great link to concrete scientific data. Thanks. However, there is one huge glaring error.................................penetration tells us nothing about a felon say returning fire for 15 mins. after being shot say 12 times. If we only wanted penetration we would all carry a Ruger Blackhawk with hardcast WFN bullets. My point being that penetration is only part of the story. Sure, eventually they will bleed out. So will an African lion with a .22 wound. I`m more concerned with what Mr. Lion is going to do to me between penetration and his ultimate demise.

Also, the link is repeating the same BS that the Win. ST ``failed`` in the Miami FBI Shootout of `86. No it didn`t. The bullet functioned perfectly but unfortunately the target was a highly resolute man.

BadAndy
10-19-2010, 15:53
Not too shabby for "economy" ammunition if you ask me.

Not at all :cool:

Merkavaboy
10-19-2010, 16:21
First, Walberg cherry picked his samples.

Second, his Evaluation of the Win 147JHP proved NOTHING when it comes to immediately stopping the threat. All of his sample shooting results were from dead bodies.

481
10-19-2010, 16:27
481, that`s a great link to concrete scientific data. Thanks. However, there is one huge glaring error.................................penetration tells us nothing about a felon say returning fire for 15 mins. after being shot say 12 times. If we only wanted penetration we would all carry a Ruger Blackhawk with hardcast WFN bullets. My point being that penetration is only part of the story. Sure, eventually they will bleed out. So will an African lion with a .22 wound. I`m more concerned with what Mr. Lion is going to do to me between penetration and his ultimate demise.

Also, the link is repeating the same BS that the Win. ST ``failed`` in the Miami FBI Shootout of `86. No it didn`t. The bullet functioned perfectly but unfortunately the target was a highly resolute man.

You are welcome, BOGE.

You are correct. Penetration is just part of the bigger picture. Expansion and retained weight also play a part in terminal performance in addition to myriad other factors far too numerous to address here. That is why I provided the average expansion and average retained weight of the round as well.

As for the "failure" of the Winchester 9mm 115 gr. Silvertip JHP; I agree with you. Nothing in the way of a handheld weapon can hold to the promise of being a 100%-of-the-time fight-stopper especially when an assailant has it in their mind that they will "weather" whatever they have to in order to accomplish whatever they've set out to do.

481
10-19-2010, 16:40
Not at all :cool:

With Winchester pushing their recent PDX1 pistol ammo line as offering 1.5x caliber expansion, it is interesting to note that their "old" police ammo line (SuperX, now marketed under the "Winchester USA" name) offers the same performance at less than half the price. While the WWB JHPs (in any caliber offered) is not a 'bonded' design, it is nice to have economically "favorable" options when the checkbook gets 'light'.

:winkie:

BurkGlocker
10-19-2010, 16:44
Here are some 147 WWB 9mm fired into ballistic gelatin from a Taurus 24/7. Left one was bare, right was 4 layers of denim. Penetration was optimal hovering around 14" for both.

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn224/wharsmahhummer/bullets3f.jpg

For a comparison, here are some 147 gr Ranger SXT 9mm. Left and middle was bare gelatin, far right was 4 layers of denim. Same performance, and little difference between expanded diameter except for the 'talons' and penetration was the same.

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn224/wharsmahhummer/bullets2.jpg

I dont have any problem carrying the WWB, especially if I was on a budget. They have always performed as designed, and yes, there are newer and better designs, but if in a pinch, and I didnt have access to any other type of ammo, I would use them...

Burk

481
10-19-2010, 16:52
Here are some 147 WWB 9mm fired into ballistic gelatin from a Taurus 24/7. Left one was bare, right was 4 layers of denim. Penetration was optimal hovering around 14" for both.

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn224/wharsmahhummer/bullets3f.jpg

For a comparison, here are some 147 gr Ranger SXT 9mm. Left and middle was bare gelatin, far right was 4 layers of denim. Same performance, and little difference between expanded diameter except for the 'talons' and penetration was the same.

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn224/wharsmahhummer/bullets2.jpg

I dont have any problem carrying the WWB, especially if I was on a budget. They have always performed as designed, and yes, there are newer and better designs, but if in a pinch, and I didnt have access to any other type of ammo, I would use them...

Burk

Nice! :supergrin:

Thanks for the pictures and the comparison, Burk!

thegriz18
10-20-2010, 14:16
Wait, an economy JHP produced more than 28 lethal wounds? I thought that stuff was anemic. :whistling:

CanyonMan
10-20-2010, 20:18
I'll stay with the WWB 147gr for the penetration. Also the 147gr WW PDX1, and the 147gr Ranger T series. All these have tremendous penetration, and besides, in the real world no JHP really opens up like the jello pics you see, and if so, it is laking in penetration way to much to get through barriers and the like to reach the vitals..

Don't have to agree. Just my .02, along with some experience tossed in.


This post not meant to start a war. Obama is the one who does all that ! :faint: Ha !




CM

ElectricZombie
10-20-2010, 20:44
Interesting data. I may have to go back to carrying the WWB 147JHP.

Glock19Fan
10-20-2010, 22:25
The pictures above show very close to my results with the round. However, mine were fired from a Glock 19s 4 inch barrel. Not familiar with the 24/7, but the ones I shot seemed a little more aggressive, but did well through barel gelatin and 4 layes of denim.

I also fired some Rangers and Gold Dots as a comparision.

I can get some photos up later if anyone is interested.

BTW, I kinda skimmed through the thread, but if it hasnt been mentioned yet, these are the same bullets that are used in Winchesters SilverTip line.

I noticed that both through water jugs and ballistic gelatin that these were some of the most aggressive expanders in the 147 grain weight range. And by that I mean they open fast and early. They still tend to penetrate deep too.

It would be nice if they were nickel plated, but I used to keep these loaded in my Glock for years, and I would do it again if I had to.

As always just make positively sure they are reliable in your firearm.

shaneroyce
10-21-2010, 10:05
Thanks for all of the comments so far. I may give them a whirl. Any other comments or data is appreciated. Thanks again.

fastbolt
10-21-2010, 10:42
The 147gr old-style JHP used in the USA9JHP2 load in both USA & Subsonic Centerfire Duty Handgun lines is pretty much the same one used since the 147gr OSM load.

Being an inexpensive bulk/contract-type load, don't expect it to have the same QC as the more expensive lines (case & bullet discoloration, case mouth damage, dirtier burning, etc).

I've used these lines for many years, shooting many tens of thousands of rounds of them. I've used them for both training/practice/quals and for duty (when nothing else was available). While I've come across my fair share of mangled rounds, inert/hard primers, etc, it's been a decent budget load.

Being an old-style JHP, I wouldn't expect the same potential for the nose cavity to resist plugging and offering consistent, robust expansion when used in carefully controlled 4-layer denim testing.

The newer bullet designs do have some inherent advantages ... and higher costs. Also, you just can't predict what any particular bullet is going to do in any given target medium on any given day fired out of any given gun.

I've learned of old-style defensive ammunition which offered classic mushroom performance when fired into living attackers, but which exhibited both failures-to-expand, as well as desirable expansion, when tested in some 4-layer denim tests. I've also learned of some of the newer bullet designs which exhibited 'perfect, brochure-like' expansion when used in actual shooting situations. You just can't predict.

The newer, improved hollowpoint designs have been developed to hopefully produce more consistent desirable results, though, and to better resist plugging of the nose cavity.

Over the years I've also learned of some of the older style W-W 147gr JHP loads to sometimes exhibit velocities which were far below the expected specification, too. Add in an old-style JHP design with a reduced velocity (hovering in the mid-700fps range) ... and don't expect wonders.

Then, consider that some of the newer hollowpoint designs have reportedly been revised by some manufacturers to take into consideration the growing preference for shorter barreled plainclothes & CCW pistols, allowing for better potential for expansion at reduced velocities in shorter barrels.

Sometimes you only get what you're willing to pay for, you know. ;)

I still have some of the USA9JHP2 loads left in my ammunition collection. I mostly use it for the range, since I have other, newer designed loads for carry use.

Would I use it for carry if that's all I had? Sure.

Would I spend more for defensive ammunition if I had the option? Sure.

Would I lose sleep over the difference? Not really.

It's still just defensive handgun ammunition ... and yet, there's also better stuff out there nowadays.

I'd rather spend more time developing & honing my skillsets than worrying about the specific ammunition in my gun.

Sometimes I have 127gr +P+ T-Series in one of my 9's, and sometimes I have 124gr +P GS (non-bonded) in one of them ... and sometimes I couldn't tell you which load was in which gun unless I checked the magazine, since I probably just grabbed whichever box was closest at hand when loading magazines after cleaning. ;)

Suit your budget.

Spend as much time getting training and investing in good practice sessions with whatever you may choose.

ubimow
11-02-2010, 23:34
Someone did a few tests on Youtube; it seemed to always overpenetrate.

I just tested some WWWB 147gr. JHP today along with HST 147gr and Ranger T 147gr.
I shot into phone books soaked in water overnight with 4 layers of denim on the front.
Both the HST and Ranger T stopped in the 4th phone book and expanded nicely while the WWB 147gr JHP did not expand at all and went through all 7 phone books.

Glock19Fan
11-03-2010, 01:05
I just tested some WWWB 147gr. JHP today along with HST 147gr and Ranger T 147gr.
I shot into phone books soaked in water overnight with 4 layers of denim on the front.
Both the HST and Ranger T stopped in the 4th phone book and expanded nicely while the WWB 147gr JHP did not expand at all and went through all 7 phone books.

In what order did you fire the rounds?

Merkavaboy
11-03-2010, 01:35
Just a few comments to throw out there for people to be aware of.

First, be aware that this bullet design and loading (Win USA 147JHP) was never intended to be used for either civilian law enforcement nor self-defense. This round was specifically designed for long distance (longer than standard CQB distances that is) accuracy out of suppressed MP5 subguns in use by the military (namely, the SEALs). It was designated the Type-L OSM (Olin Super Match). This load is what the FBI and many other LEA's went to after the '86 Miami incident.

Second, over the years of use more than a few agencies found that they were having cycling problems with the subsonic 147JHPs and they were also experiencing erratic performance in actual shootings including slight to no expansion and over penetrations.

It's your choice if you want to use an "economy" style load for SD, but modern JHP pistol ammo that's designed specifically for personal SD would be a much wiser choice.

Glolt20-91
11-03-2010, 01:53
Is it the so-called "best" carry for 9mm, probably not, but I'd carry it before I'd carry the 124gr Gold Dot.

Bob :cowboy:

BOGE
11-03-2010, 09:43
Is it the so-called "best" carry for 9mm, probably not, but I'd carry it before I'd carry the 124gr Gold Dot.

Bob :cowboy:

:faint:

CanyonMan
11-03-2010, 11:58
Anyone have any thoughts on how good this round is for a primary SD weapon? Is it adequate, or would I be better off sticking to Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +p? I have no doubt the Speer (and others) are better ammo, just curious if anyone carries this as I am considering it. Thanks in advance.


The speer 124gr +p for 9 mil is not that great (IMO) ammo. I prefer the 147gr speer, and the 147gr WW PDX1, and I do own a ton of, and carry the WWB 147gr JHP's at times IF I carry a 9mil. They have 'tremendous penetration through various media', I have tested them a good deal, and never a malfunction ever.

They are, 'for me' at least, extremely accurate out of a G19, and I totally trust them or I would not use them. Again, I do like the 147gr PDX1, Ranger 147gr bonded, and the 147gr speer bonded. That is really it For me in 9mm, oh yes, and the Hornady 147gr XTP. and I would use these over the Speer 124gr +P.

I Go with any of these 147gr'ers and from my test, I am very confident with any of them. If i want the deepest of penetration, the WWB 147gr gets the nod, then the 147gr PDX1, and the Ranger 147gr bonded, in that order I guess.


My .2



Good shooting



CM

G31
11-03-2010, 14:14
The difference between effectiveness between the various available weights is minimal at best, and 1 step above nothing most of the time. The idea is to hit what you're aiming at, whether it's the heart, a major artery/vein, the spinal cord in the cervical spine area, etc. You hit it, you get results; you miss, and you do not affect it much, if at all.

Carry the 147 gr. USA JHPs with confidence. I have them loaded in my G19 at the moment, and carry them regularly. Can't beat $15 a box of 50 at Wal-Mart. 20-round boxes of "premium" ammo is more than that!

The only thing you lose between premium ammo and bulk is strictly quality control. That's it.

Glolt20-91
11-03-2010, 14:28
The speer 124gr +p for 9 mil is not that great (IMO) ammo. I prefer the 147gr speer, and the 147gr WW PDX1, and I do own a ton of, and carry the WWB 147gr JHP's at times IF I carry a 9mil. They have 'tremendous penetration through various media', I have tested them a good deal, and never a malfunction ever.

They are, 'for me' at least, extremely accurate out of a G19, and I totally trust them or I would not use them. Again, I do like the 147gr PDX1, Ranger 147gr bonded, and the 147gr speer bonded. That is really it For me in 9mm, oh yes, and the Hornady 147gr XTP. and I would use these over the Speer 124gr +P.

I Go with any of these 147gr'ers and from my test, I am very confident with any of them. If i want the deepest of penetration, the WWB 147gr gets the nod, then the 147gr PDX1, and the Ranger 147gr bonded, in that order I guess.


My .2



Good shooting



CM

+1

Against a steel barrier (two tests) the 124gr GD was the worst performing bullet I've tested.

Steel, one bottle and bullet was found laying on the ground, both tests;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/9mmP124grGoldDot.jpg

I posted the results with typical negative responses; then a New York State Trooper was killed during a shoot out. The Trooper had 4 well placed shots on one felon, who subsequently lived, with the 124gr Gold Dot. New York State Police later stated the 124gr Gold Dot was a caliber failure and the agency switched from 9mm to 45GAP.

Heads-up comparison with the Win 147gr JHP, steel plus 4 one gallon bottles;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/G17147grWin2-06-2007013.jpg

I prefer the 147gr GD too, it's a tough design that's a reliable performer;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/Furniture147GD-4x4-lid-rib016.jpg

For the handloader who desires to load the 9mm to +P velocities, the 125gr Gold Dot, designed for the .357SIG/.38Super/9x23mm, performs much better than the 124gr GD in my experience.

With the same powder load as the 124gr GD, the 125gr GD penetrated the steel barrier and exited out the side of #4 bottle;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/Barrier125GoldDot9mm-38Super-230-1.jpg

Bob :cowboy:

BOGE
11-03-2010, 16:20
...Against a steel barrier (two tests) the 124gr GD was the worst performing bullet I've tested...

Are you planning to shoot it out with Iron Man?

Glolt20-91
11-03-2010, 17:38
Are you planning to shoot it out with Iron Man?

Never can tell, think about all those zombie seniors who take iron vitamin supplements. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

CanyonMan
11-03-2010, 18:33
Never can tell, think about all those zombie seniors who take iron vitamin supplements. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Heck yeh !




CM