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garander
10-20-2010, 06:02
i know fred can help on this one. i usually load a 230 fmj with 6.3 grains of unique. it seems fine in my glock 30. now i have picked up a box of hornady 230 grain xtp's. some of the websites i checked out had loads using up to 7.2 grains of unique with a 230 grain fmj. man that seems really warm! i was just wondering if i could work up to even 6.6 grains unique with the xtp. anyone know the aprox pressure of this load?

GIockGuy24
10-20-2010, 06:26
For the 230 grain XTP one manual shows 5.1 to 6.1 grains of Unique for 850 fps and one manual shows 5.8 - 6.4 grains of Unique for 880 fps (5 inch barrel?) loaded to 1.230". 6.0 of Unique is not a bad load. The XTP will be hotter than a round nose FMJ bullet with the same powder charge.

XDRoX
10-20-2010, 08:07
I have a Hornady manual that shows 7.3gr of Unique under 230gr FMJ will fire at 900fps:wow:

garander
10-20-2010, 08:20
i have an old hornady manual that also shows 7.3 unique and a 230 fmj
i just shot 5 rounds of the xtp with 6.6 grains of unique and it's just too hot.
at least out of my glock 30 badly bulged brass with a line on it. you can tell the brass was stretched. very accurate. sooner or later i know a piece of brass would give way with that load and my glock 30. i will be using about 6.2 grains and no more. unless i get a hold of some thicker brass or a stouter recoil spring if that would even help

vtducrider
10-20-2010, 08:23
900ft/s is hot. I stay in the 825 range. Are you making these for practicing or actually HD/carry? Most folks I come across use factory loads for the latter. But it's imperative to practice with at least equivalent loads.

Hogpauls
10-20-2010, 09:15
Garander, I'm using 5.7 grns of unique under 230 fmj and get carbon on the case after firing through my G30. I suspect the case isn't expanding enough in the chamber. Do your cases exhibit the same with 6.3 grns of Unique through your G30? I've worked up a few loads to 6.3 grns, just want to check if I'm going in the right direction.

garander
10-20-2010, 09:28
no hogpaul i dont get much carbon on my cases with the 6.3 grain fmj load.
i think most guys say some carbon on the case mouth is not that big a deal. i know bullets fit my glock 30 chamber much looser than my series 70 1911

orgnova
10-20-2010, 09:28
I've been using 6.0gr of unique with 230gr fmj through my 1911's and my g30 for awhile now. Shoots cleaner and is accurate. Started loading 40 s&w with it too. My 2.

GIockGuy24
10-20-2010, 09:50
Make sure your load data is up to date. Unique is a faster powder than it was some years ago. Years ago the standard 230 grain FMJ load was 6.5 grains of old Unique. The current Unique will about match that old load with about 6.0 grains of Unique.

fredj338
10-20-2010, 10:03
Make sure your load data is up to date. Unique is a faster powder than it was some years ago. Years ago the standard 230 grain FMJ load was 6.5 grains of old Unique. The current Unique will about match that old load with about 6.0 grains of Unique.

Even w/ the new Unique, 6.5gr under a 230grFMJ @ 1.255"OAL runs just under 900fps. I have run the same load under a Win 230grjHP @ 1.250" & it is still pushing right up under 900fps in a 5"bbl. I don't know the pressure, but cases look fine in a 1911 or XD. With the XTP, it's going to be bout your OAL. I am not sure you can get them much longer than 1.230". I'm not sure I would trust any data running over 7gr & then I would want to be at the longest OAL I could get. Some of the older manuals go there & a bit beyond, but I only use older data w/ older powders. Whether the powders have changed or not, it's just not prudent to expect 30yr old data to work the same w/ todays powder.
Running them hotter will certainly be in +P territory by most printed data sources. Just not need IMO. Run the 6.3gr-6.4gr range & call it good. BTW, if you are handloading for SD, consider the 230gr RGS or GoldDot in 230gr. With the XTP, I prefer the 200gr going 900fps+. It digs as deep as most other 230grJHP w/ less recoil.

methodius
10-20-2010, 10:11
Garander, I'm using 5.7 grns of unique under 230 fmj and get carbon on the case after firing through my G30. I suspect the case isn't expanding enough in the chamber. Do your cases exhibit the same with 6.3 grns of Unique through your G30? I've worked up a few loads to 6.3 grns, just want to check if I'm going in the right direction.

Not to highjack the thread, but what is this an indication of? Too light a charge? I have some reloads that I have been using up in a pre-Kahr Tommy gun that I recently tried in my new G36 and I got a triangle shaped carbon streak down one side of the brass, so i am curious.

Thanks,

methodius

garander
10-20-2010, 11:02
Not to highjack the thread, but what is this an indication of? Too light a charge? I have some reloads that I have been using up in a pre-Kahr Tommy gun that I recently tried in my new G36 and I got a triangle shaped carbon streak down one side of the brass, so i am curious.

Thanks,

methodius

yes the streak down the side of your case certainly can be to light a charge.
i would think the glock with it's sloppier chamber might be more prone to this.
as i have said my 1911 chambers are a lot tighter than my glock 30's

garander
10-20-2010, 11:29
hey fred here is two fired cases with the bulge after using 6.6 grains of unique with the 230 gr xtp 1.233 oal. cbc once fired brass. not all of the cases bulged but these two did. charges were weighed. those two slugs barley made it into the second phone book. i might try some starline brass with 6.4 grains. i want something fairly stiff for carry

fredj338
10-20-2010, 13:17
yes the streak down the side of your case certainly can be to light a charge.
i would think the glock with it's sloppier chamber might be more prone to this.
as i have said my 1911 chambers are a lot tighter than my glock 30's
Usually the low pressure smoking or carbon covers about half the mouth of the case or more. It can be low pressure rounds or an oversize chamber or both.
hey fred here is two fired cases with the bulge after using 6.6 grains of unique with the 230 gr xtp 1.233 oal. cbc once fired brass. not all of the cases bulged but these two did. charges were weighed. those two slugs barley made it into the second phone book. i might try some starline brass with 6.4 grains. i want something fairly stiff for carry
Ouch, definitely crank those down a bit. It could also be the CBC brass. It looks like you are testing in dry phone books. Dry paper is really tough on any bullet. Soak those phone books for at least 8hrs & then shoot them. You'll need at least 12" to capture most JHP & can test as many as 6 bullets in one stack. The XTp is not an expander, 62cal is quite large for any XTp. It's why I like the 200gr. Easily drive them to 900fps for good expansion & faster follow up shots. I carry the factory 200grXTp in my lt.wt. 1911PD.

WiskyT
10-20-2010, 14:09
Make sure your load data is up to date. Unique is a faster powder than it was some years ago. Years ago the standard 230 grain FMJ load was 6.5 grains of old Unique. The current Unique will about match that old load with about 6.0 grains of Unique.

Unique is not faster than it was in the old days. They still have a sample of it from 100 years ago they use as a control from time to time to make sure it is still within spec.

I'll see if I can find the link I posted a few eeks ago on the history of the original Unique and some other powders.

WiskyT
10-20-2010, 14:12
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1254144&highlight=read

garander
10-20-2010, 16:15
thanks fred. thanks guys for the reply's i will be cranking down my load with the xtp's. i fired 5 with 6.3 grains of unique with new remington brass and only one of the 5 had a bulge and not as bad a bulge as the 6.6 grain load. still a lot of recoil! man!
i can see going down even to 6 grains. i know, i screwed up. i am actually working down a load!

rg1
10-20-2010, 16:34
Hornady 230 XTP's seem to create a little more pressure than some other 230 grainers. Bearing surface or jacket could cause this. With Hornady 230 XTP's and Unique I'd not load higher than 6.0 to a maximum of 6.2 grains using Hornady's recommended oal. Your brand cases or primers used could change the maximum. Now with the Remington 230 Golden Saber with it's minor diameter with a driving band, you can go up as high as 6.5 grains of Unique without pressure signs like the cases in your pics. I had some 1985 Unique that I compared to 2000's dated Unique and velocity with the same load was nearly identical, within 5 fps.

GioaJack
10-20-2010, 17:03
You may find that carrying max loads provides very little benefits while at the same time adding unwanted recoil.

If one shot stops, or even one hot hits in a social encounter were the norm the phrase 'follow up shots' never would have been invented.

Just my opinion, based on a little bit of experience.


Jack

fredj338
10-20-2010, 17:59
You may find that carrying max loads provides very little benefits while at the same time adding unwanted recoil.

If one shot stops, or even one hot hits in a social encounter were the norm the phrase 'follow up shots' never would have been invented.

Just my opinion, based on a little bit of experience.


Jack
You are so right Mr. Jack. The add'l. 50fps or so doesn't add much to the bullet perfromance & the recoil, especially in smaller lt.wt. guns just causes slower shots or missed shots delivered w/ the same speed, at least for me, & I shoot a lot of 44mag, so it's not like I am recoil shy.:dunno:

Zombie Steve
10-20-2010, 21:33
My data for this load:

6.0 Grains Unique
Win brass
1.220" OAL
Fed Match primer

872 average fps from 5" 1911... very good accuracy, and as far as I'm concerned, plenty hot.

ilgunguygt
10-21-2010, 00:01
I prefer power pistol for my hot loads in 45acp. I have worked up to 8.3gr with a 230gr XTP with no pressure signs. Very accurate and powerful.

Rico567
10-21-2010, 05:48
I can't see any good reason to go over the old GI harball spec of a 230 gr. bullet and 840 fps. This is approaching the pressure limit of .45 ACP anyway, and the 230 gr. bullet's mass does a lot of the work. I would never consider a lighter bullet for the purposes contemplated in this thread. OTOH, if you're just going to plink or punch paper, hey, go crazy.

gator378
10-21-2010, 09:19
i have an old hornady manual that also shows 7.3 unique and a 230 fmj
i just shot 5 rounds of the xtp with 6.6 grains of unique and it's just too hot.
at least out of my glock 30 badly bulged brass with a line on it. you can tell the brass was stretched. very accurate. sooner or later i know a piece of brass would give way with that load and my glock 30. i will be using about 6.2 grains and no more. unless i get a hold of some thicker brass or a stouter recoil spring if that would even help

Want thicker brass pick up some 45 acp Super from starline. That is what I did because I never replaced the Glock 21 barrel with a fully supported barrel. So far no smileys but I do not load super hot either. Use 8.5 grains of AA#5. 800 - 900 fps.

DoctaGlockta
10-21-2010, 11:55
I stick to 6.0 grains. I find 6.2 grains even a bit peppy. I have pushed to 6.7 and 6.8 but way too hot for me. Started to see split cases and bulges. Just wasted powder up around those levels IMO and not worth the possible consequences.

garander
10-21-2010, 15:23
you guys are right. around 6 grains unique is the sweet spot.
i shot 10 with 5.9 grains and got no case bulges. still plenty of power.
i am glad you guys have some experience with the xtp. i might take fred's advice also and pick up some of the 200 grainers.

Zombie Steve
10-21-2010, 15:52
I stick to 6.0 grains. I find 6.2 grains even a bit peppy. I have pushed to 6.7 and 6.8 but way too hot for me. Started to see split cases and bulges. Just wasted powder up around those levels IMO and not worth the possible consequences.

Very similar results here. I use 6.2 for a full strength 230 fmj load with an oal of 1.265".

I used Sierra's data for their 230 jhp and took it up to 6.7 grains IIRC. I didn't get splits or bulges, but it got a little spooky when I saw the chrono numbers in the mid 900's. :shocked:

fredj338
10-21-2010, 15:56
I can't see any good reason to go over the old GI harball spec of a 230 gr. bullet and 840 fps. This is approaching the pressure limit of .45 ACP anyway, and the 230 gr. bullet's mass does a lot of the work. I would never consider a lighter bullet for the purposes contemplated in this thread. OTOH, if you're just going to plink or punch paper, hey, go crazy.
I agree, but you can get 900fps w/o going over the std pressure limits, you just have to use slower powders.

Gunnut 45/454
10-22-2010, 21:11
I know the OP is talking about 230 XTPs ,but for me for SD I have went to the 200 gr XTP in 45 ACP! I run mine at 908 fps with 6.8 gr Unique! They shoot very accurately out of my P345 Ruger! I found that follow up shots were alot easier with this load!:supergrin:

fredj338
10-22-2010, 22:42
I know the OP is talking about 230 XTPs ,but for me for SD I have went to the 200 gr XTP in 45 ACP! I run mine at 908 fps with 6.8 gr Unique! They shoot very accurately out of my P345 Ruger! I found that follow up shots were alot easier with this load!:supergrin:
A man after my own heart, factory 200grXTP is my carry load. It's also easy to reproduce for practice using a 200grLSWC. Considering the 45acp was originally designed around a 200gr bullet, I am surprised that more companies don't offer that weight in a JHP instead of the 185gr. Although if you want a lower penetrating bullet, the 185grSTHP or Sierra JHC is a good choice. The 185grXTP still penetrates quite well driven @ 1000fps.

GioaJack
10-23-2010, 09:24
Super Vel used to market a 190 grain JHP at what that time was the highest velocity offered by any manufacturer. Carried them in a Commander and Star PD for many years.

You really can't tell the difference between them and a 185 or 200 grain but I've never seen another 190 grainer out there. There may be some... I just haven't seen them.

I am not a fan of the 230 grainers in some of the lighter framed guns; Commander, Star, pretty much any alloy frame and certainly the little 3 inch Kimber.

Since designed expansion is a best case scenario I prefer to count on experiencing worst case scenarios, (a lot like marriage), first 1 or 2 shots complete misses with the need for quick and more accurate follow up shots. The lighter bullet allows to that and still gives you a minimum of a .45 wound channel.

Yes, yes, I know... you should never miss your first couple of shots and if you do you need to practice more. Funny how life doesn't always work out that way. :dunno:


Jack

fredj338
10-23-2010, 10:37
Since designed expansion is a best case scenario I prefer to count on experiencing worst case scenarios, (a lot like marriage), first 1 or 2 shots complete misses with the need for quick and more accurate follow up shots. The lighter bullet allows to that and still gives you a minimum of a .45 wound channel.

Yes, yes, I know... you should never miss your first couple of shots and if you do you need to practice more. Funny how life doesn't always work out that way. :dunno:


Jack
Exactly why I prefer the 45acp. Yeah, I know, we can all hit CNS @ 15yds at the range, but when you start moving & the target starts moving, just getting hits is a challenge & might as well get the biggest hole w/ that hit. After all, it's why everyone tries to make a 9mmJHP expand to 50 cal, so it can get close to a 45!:whistling: I would still like to see manuf get away from the 185gr & move to good 200gr bullet designs. Something like a RGS @ a solid 900fps from a 4" bbl, plenty of penetration & easy to shoot fast w/ better hit potential, especially in those joy to carry lt.wt. 1911s.

gforester
10-23-2010, 13:13
I bought some 200 gr. Speer GDHP's from Midway, loaded with 6.5 grains of Unique and got an average of 912 fps from my 3.8" H&K compact. Sounds like plenty of velocity to me and the recoil wasn't bad either.

For comparison to factory loads I got 931 fps from my 230 gr. Federal HST +P and 835 fps from my 230 gr. GDHP's. The Federals were really snappy, the Speer not so much, but my hand loads were the easiest to shoot.

dudel
10-23-2010, 15:00
Not to highjack the thread, but what is this an indication of? Too light a charge? I have some reloads that I have been using up in a pre-Kahr Tommy gun that I recently tried in my new G36 and I got a triangle shaped carbon streak down one side of the brass, so i am curious.

Thanks,

methodius

Sometimes. Depends on the powder (some are cleaner than others) and your chamber (some are looser than others.)