"Critical" Observations Concerning Hornady's "Critical Defence" Ammunition! [Archive] - Glock Talk

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ULVER
10-20-2010, 15:13
I would tend to agree with the following:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/main.htm

Although most personal defence situations, don't include windshields or car doors, I would rather have the ability to defeat them, than not.

Gold Dot for the win! :wavey:

datnvan
10-20-2010, 15:50
i carry them with confidence. shooting someone without clear line of sight and no barriers is asking for even more legal trouble than what you'll already be in. i can easily get them, they cycle tru all my guns reliably, and i am accurate with them.

dkf
10-20-2010, 16:45
is not designed to shoot through glass, is not designed to shoot through a car door, and is not designed to shoot through a wall. If you have to shoot through something like that in a personal defense situation you're probably going to jail.Yeah ok.:upeyes:

Its a good thing bad guys can't shoot through glass to possibly take your life.

Hornady Critical Defense handgun ammo is not designed to shoot through anything other than clothing. It's not tested against anything other than bare gelatin and clothing.They should have at least done some testing to see how it would perform against other materials.

Thanks for posting this ULVER, an eye opener for sure.

Glolt20-91
10-20-2010, 16:56
I would tend to agree with the following:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/main.htm

Although most personal defence situations, don't include windshields or car doors, I would rather have the ability to defeat them, than not.

Gold Dot for the win! :wavey:

I've tested the .357mag Critical defense ammo, expanded w/i and penetrated a redwood 4x4;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/4x4125grFTX357mag020.jpg

Very difficult to see in this pic, but the bullet retained enough velocity to suck a lot of wood splinters into #1 bottle causing the water to rapidly swirl counter-clockwise;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/4x4125grFTX357mag012.jpg

The rest of the test can be found on the furniture penetration thread; not scientific but a lot of fun to do, this bullet performed very well against a thick barrier at <1300fps.

Don't have any critical defense ammo in other calibers, but it would be interesting to see the results if you wanted to do your own testing.

Bob :cowboy:

mclaren
10-21-2010, 09:02
I think this article is a little dramatic. If I am changing a tire on the side of the road and scary gary murderer rolls up and needs to be shot,
i wont be too unhappy if my bullets fail to expand. Unless the author means by "fail to perform" that they will not penetrate these common barriers, then the qualm should be with lack of velocity, not CD bullet construction.
In a close public encounter with a short barreled weapon, this ammo should perform as advertised; maximize wounding and reduce collateral damage.
If
I am shooting through barriers on purpose (a concept I have no problem with) I have to adjust my hopes of expansion and expect penetration.

I kind of think its making a big deal out of nothing and is taking the round's intended purpose and abilities out of context. boo freakin hoo.

Gasp!! Glaser Safety slugs aren't tested through glass. Pow'Rballs aren't proven to perform through a can of clam chowder, Oh God!

DonGlock26
10-21-2010, 11:44
I've been issued .38spl 110gr/9mm 115gr silvertips, [90gr .380, 129gr .38spl & 147gr hydrashocks], 147gr golddots, 95gr .380 black talon, 230gr RangerT, and 230gr HST as a LEO.

I suggest the best brand for the average person is the Speer Golddot. They perform well across the board, they are affordable, they are bonded, and they are available.

DaveA
10-21-2010, 12:12
I think whoever wrote that is sorta missing the point. It was designed to consistantly expand through clothing and flesh and prevent over-penetration on other materials (preventing possible injury to someone else if you miss). I remember this being the big thing Hornady crowed about when it was first coming out. Will it go through other stuff? Maybe. Again, it's designed NOT to overpenetrate.

If that doesn't sound like your thing, then don't carry them. *shrugs*

cowboy1964
10-21-2010, 12:34
Legal through-the-glass shoots during car jackings or assaults do happen. We had a case locally here a few years ago which was brought up in our CCW class.

CD is ok if you know what it's designed for and what it isn't.

I can easily get Gold Dots at about half the cost of Critical Defense. Same with Rangers and HSTs. If nothing else I prefer loads that have more extensive testing results online just so I can do my own research.

Glolt20-91
10-21-2010, 12:49
I've been issued .38spl 110gr/9mm 115gr silvertips, [90gr .380, 129gr .38spl & 147gr hydrashocks], 147gr golddots, 95gr .380 black talon, 230gr RangerT, and 230gr HST as a LEO.

I suggest the best brand for the average person is the Speer Golddot. They perform well across the board, they are affordable, they are bonded, and they are available.

Thank you for your service.

I like the Gold Dot design too, here's a couple of GDs that didn't perform as advertised.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/FurnitureGoldDots9mm147failuretoexp.jpg

Bob :cowboy:

G19aps
10-21-2010, 14:01
Bob, do you know what those were shot into and at what velocity?
thanks

ULVER
10-21-2010, 17:53
I know of a attempted car-jacking, where the victim fired his model 60, loaded with Glaser Safety Slugs through the side window glass. The slug disintegrated, resulting in the perp being unscathed, and able to return fire. Luckily, the bad guy missed him; point blank, the ran!

The article concerning the "Critical Defence" limited penetration against hard objects, was written by Shawn Dodson. He used to post here a lot. He knows his stuff. I don't agree with him on some things, but on this I do.

SIGShooter
10-21-2010, 18:25
I read the article. I also read what the NRA hooya had to say about shooting through barriers...:upeyes:

Personally, my opinion, if a manufacturer is going to design a bullet for "Personal Defense/Protection/Use" then they better be testing it just as they would if they were marketing to the LE/Mil community.

I'm less than impressed right now with Hornady. So maybe there is a little biased sentiment I have for them. After spending about a grand on TAP ammo for my M4…Let's just say that it has yet to perform how they stated.

In regards to the Critical Defense ammo…If it isn't performing as designed (I.E. barrier penetration) then it shouldn't be marketed to the shooter's who use it for SD/HD. They need to redesign it and make sure that it penetrates barriers. Really, when you think about it, there are barriers of every kind in a person's home they may have to shoot through. How about a bookshelf, a door, a table, or even glass.

mclaren
10-22-2010, 08:50
Thats like saying that Chevrolet needs to redesign the Aveo to do what the Silverado Z71 can do.
Its apples and oranges. It is advertised as doing specific things and is bought by people who's needs it fits. If you want all these other capabilities buy other ammo.
The Critical Defense line is not touted by Hornady as the do-everything round, so it should not be a let down that it is not.
Some people want an Aveo, some people want a Z71. People that want both get a Subaru Outback. (I guess)
This is about unrealistic expectations and the disappointment that will always bring.

Again why is this author not writing about the Glaser Safety Slug's poor performance through barriers. Its not really a fringe product (Cor-Bon).
That would be absurd because everyone knows that the safety slug has a very specific purpose that does not include penetrating barriers. It does excell at creating shallow wounds and not deflecting off of hard surfaces though. Big surprise.

Why does gasoline suck as mouthwash but make vehicles run great?? First grade stuff here folks

Glolt20-91
10-23-2010, 00:39
Bob, do you know what those were shot into and at what velocity?
thanks

Barrier was wood, notice the left Gold Dot has lead core/jacket separation; it didn't bond.

Overall, the 147gr Gold Dot is a very tough bullet against a lot of barriers.

Bob :cowboy:

DonGlock26
10-23-2010, 06:45
Thank you for your service.

I like the Gold Dot design too, here's a couple of GDs that didn't perform as advertised.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/FurnitureGoldDots9mm147failuretoexp.jpg

Bob :cowboy:

That appears to be a box of bullets, and not factory loaded ammunition.

Glolt20-91
10-23-2010, 14:01
That appears to be a box of bullets, and not factory loaded ammunition.

And your point???

TOUGH ENOUGH FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT. When professionals who put their life on the line every day trust Gold Dot®—you know it’s the best. The same bullet loaded in Speer® Gold Dot ammunition is available in your favorite handload. That means the same calibers, shapes and quality, which translates to the same superior performance. Find yours today.



http://www.speer-bullets.com/products/handgun/self_defense/gold_dot_personal_protection.aspx

Bob :cowboy:

G19aps
10-24-2010, 09:50
Since they're reloads and you didn't say what velocity and what they were shot into, saying that they didn't perform as advertised is confusing.

SIGShooter
10-24-2010, 12:22
Thats like saying that Chevrolet needs to redesign the Aveo to do what the Silverado Z71 can do.
Its apples and oranges. It is advertised as doing specific things and is bought by people who's needs it fits. If you want all these other capabilities buy other ammo.
The Critical Defense line is not touted by Hornady as the do-everything round, so it should not be a let down that it is not.
Some people want an Aveo, some people want a Z71. People that want both get a Subaru Outback. (I guess)
This is about unrealistic expectations and the disappointment that will always bring.

Again why is this author not writing about the Glaser Safety Slug's poor performance through barriers. Its not really a fringe product (Cor-Bon).
That would be absurd because everyone knows that the safety slug has a very specific purpose that does not include penetrating barriers. It does excell at creating shallow wounds and not deflecting off of hard surfaces though. Big surprise.

Why does gasoline suck as mouthwash but make vehicles run great?? First grade stuff here folks


I love the people who bring up stuff about comparing trucks and cars and engines…The gasoline thing is really funny though.

Anyway, all of your comparisons aside…Read what Hornady is touting about the Critical Defense line of ammunition. I will rest my case after you read it.

If you are using a bullet that cannot penetrate common barriers in the home…It ain't worth a ****! Bottom line, people are buying this ammunition for self defense/home defense. There are barriers in everyday life that a bullet may need to go through or will go through. If the bullet fails to do its job after penetrating a barrier what the heck good is it?

CanyonMan
10-24-2010, 12:57
I love the people who bring up stuff about comparing trucks and cars and engines…The gasoline thing is really funny though.

Anyway, all of your comparisons aside…Read what Hornady is touting about the Critical Defense line of ammunition. I will rest my case after you read it.

If you are using a bullet that cannot penetrate common barriers in the home…It ain't worth a ****! Bottom line, people are buying this ammunition for self defense/home defense. There are barriers in everyday life that a bullet may need to go through or will go through. If the bullet fails to do its job after penetrating a barrier what the heck good is it?



+1 Amigo !





CM

Brucev
10-24-2010, 23:16
I think whoever wrote that is sorta missing the point. It was designed to consistantly expand through clothing and flesh and prevent over-penetration on other materials (preventing possible injury to someone else if you miss). I remember this being the big thing Hornady crowed about when it was first coming out. Will it go through other stuff? Maybe. Again, it's designed NOT to overpenetrate.

If that doesn't sound like your thing, then don't carry them. *shrugs*

+1

Glolt20-91
10-25-2010, 00:16
Since they're reloads and you didn't say what velocity and what they were shot into, saying that they didn't perform as advertised is confusing.

I understand.

Speer publishes data for their 147gr Gold Dot in 9x19mm, .38 Super and .357 SIG. The above GDs were fired from a G17, jacket/lead core separation shows this particular bullet never bonded at the factory, bullet velocity was/is a non-issue IMO.

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
10-25-2010, 00:57
I love the people who bring up stuff about comparing trucks and cars and engines…The gasoline thing is really funny though.

Anyway, all of your comparisons aside…Read what Hornady is touting about the Critical Defense line of ammunition. I will rest my case after you read it.

If you are using a bullet that cannot penetrate common barriers in the home…It ain't worth a ****! Bottom line, people are buying this ammunition for self defense/home defense. There are barriers in everyday life that a bullet may need to go through or will go through. If the bullet fails to do its job after penetrating a barrier what the heck good is it?

You may want to run some wood and sheetrock tests. I'd put my money on Critical Defense ammo when it comes to shooting through walls. The FTX bullet will not clog, a number of other bullet designs can clog, becoming FMJs with a lot of penetration. Just an observation.

Win 230gr PDX, failure to expand sheetrock;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/Sheetrock230grPDX007.jpg

Win 180gr PDX, the FBI contract ammo, failure to expand wood;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/40SW180PDX008.jpg

230gr Golden Saber, sheetrock;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/45auto230grGSsheetrock014.jpg

230gr l-r Hydrashok, Hornady Tap and Speer Gold Dot, sheetrock;

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/Furniture-sheetrockbags45acpHS-T-4.jpg

This 140gr XTP from a .357mag penetrated a redwood 4x4, cow rib and 3 water bottles; held up very nicely IMO

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/Furniture140XTP-147GD4X4-rib011.jpg

JHPs may or may not expand going through home barriers or heavy clothing, some designs are tougher than others, but there's no guarantee that even law enforcement JHP ammo will expand going through home barriers.

Just because Hornady states the FTX bullet isn't designed to penetrate walls or furniture, doesn't mean the bullet can't, as illustrated in the above post.

Bob

datnvan
10-25-2010, 03:37
link is highly NWS due to autopsy.

http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

jist of the story: multiple hits on bad guy thru glass and other barriers. some bullets prematurely expanded and only penetrated 1".

moral of the story: doesnt matter what bullets you use, make sure you're accurate. all of the major name brand SD ammo is accurate, just do your part.

dkf
10-25-2010, 09:18
Was surprised by the lack of penetration.

Gunnut 45/454
10-26-2010, 22:16
I carry 125 gr GD's in my 357 mag, 90 gr GD's in my .380 and 200 gr GD's in my 45 ACP!
They have all worked in my test and are accurate in my guns and that's all I care about!:supergrin: