Outshooting your gun.....visual/mechanical limitations [Archive] - Glock Talk

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wrx04
10-26-2010, 14:01
Let me start off by saying i am a decent, but by no means good shot (better than 95% of the people at the range, but thats not saying much). I am rather new to shooting (~2years), and have been reading a lot of threads on here about the inherent accuracy of certain production/semi-custom guns (i.e. the 1.5" at 50 yards baers, etc...) and it seems to me that NO ONE can outshoot even the better production guns. I know there are guys with incredible skills, but it seems the limitations of your vision (even the best vision capable by a human) is the limiting factor....period. Do these guys just "know" where to aim, because i know (scientifically) they cant see the target with enough detail to actually aim at a small 1" point.

These guys are talking an area under 2" at 50 YARDS!!! Just think about it this way....to see 20/20, you need to read letters that are slightly over .5" at 20 FEET. 20/20 is considered great vision....the physiological limit of a human retina is 20/8 (which is nearly impossible)....so lets assume a .25" target at 20 feet is perfect vision. That means there is no way any human could possibly shoot a 1.5" group at 50yards unless they are lucky or have extremely good insticts....are there guys out there that can shoot that good?

Why is everyone so concerned about the gun? I'm pretty sure a skilled shooter will shoot equally well with two totally different guns as long as they arent total POS's. Right?

Carrots
10-26-2010, 14:16
The distance of the target is actually irrelevant because your front sight is always the same distance away and that is where you should be focusing on. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

wrx04
10-26-2010, 14:28
The distance of the target is actually irrelevant because your front sight is always the same distance away and that is where you should be focusing on. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Right, but a 1' round target at 7yards and a 1' target at 50yards will be perceived as different sizes. It doesnt matter if you focus on the front sight, that sight itself will appear larger that the entire target at 50yards, so there is no way you can possibly hold the barrel still enough (or even line it up in the first place) to hit a target 1.5" at that distance.

rsxr22
10-26-2010, 14:29
i agree with you to some degree. I do not shoot nor will i ever at distances greater than 25 yds. And if i didnt shoot competition competively, i probably wouldnt even shoot that far away. While accuracy doesnt differ largely between high end production and semi custom, there is still a difference. And whether that difference matters to you is dependent on how much you care and if you have a thick enough wallet. I feel that the biggest difference in the two is the fitting of the gun. And there are huge differences between my TRP which is arguably the best high end production 1911 compared to even some of the lower line semi customs such as the CQB

MD357
10-26-2010, 14:47
WRX, very insightful posting. I personally don't think anyone can shoot the difference.


The distance of the target is actually irrelevant because your front sight is always the same distance away and that is where you should be focusing on. <o:p></o:p>

Uh huh. So you're saying that you can shoot the same groups @ 5, 10, and 25 yds?

wrx04
10-26-2010, 15:43
i agree with you to some degree. I do not shoot nor will i ever at distances greater than 25 yds. And if i didnt shoot competition competively, i probably wouldnt even shoot that far away. While accuracy doesnt differ largely between high end production and semi custom, there is still a difference. And whether that difference matters to you is dependent on how much you care and if you have a thick enough wallet. I feel that the biggest difference in the two is the fitting of the gun. And there are huge differences between my TRP which is arguably the best high end production 1911 compared to even some of the lower line semi customs such as the CQB

Not knocking the better guns by any stretch. I have no doubt they are better quality weapons 100%. I am sure i will have one or two myself in the near future (just because they are cool:supergrin:).

Practically speaking though, i dont think a good shooter would shoot significally different with any decent gun, although they probably would all prefer the nicer, better fit one. Kinda like a porsche 911 and corvette......both get around the track in the same amount of time, but one car is definitely more refined.

wrx04
10-26-2010, 15:59
i agree with you to some degree. I do not shoot nor will i ever at distances greater than 25 yds. And if i didnt shoot competition competively, i probably wouldnt even shoot that far away. While accuracy doesnt differ largely between high end production and semi custom, there is still a difference. And whether that difference matters to you is dependent on how much you care and if you have a thick enough wallet. I feel that the biggest difference in the two is the fitting of the gun. And there are huge differences between my TRP which is arguably the best high end production 1911 compared to even some of the lower line semi customs such as the CQB

OK, just to play devil's advocate:supergrin:.........You say you dont shoot at the greater distances. The difference in the guns mechanical accuracy will be magnified exponentially the further out you go. Therefore, if you are doing all your shooting inside 15 yards, there will literally be NO difference between the two guns at the short distance.

If an inferior gun shoots 3" from a ransom rest at 50yards, and a semi-custom shoots 1.5", the difference at 10 or 15 yards will be almost zero. (I forgot how to do trig, but i know the difference at that distance would be insignificant). And this doesnt even take into account ANY human error (vision/breathing/etc...). So as long as you are shooting within ~15 yards, the difference between actual guns is nothing.

I wonder how much of a mental game it is.....do YOU shoot better/more confident when you know you have a "good" gun compared to a $500 POS?

carguy2244
10-26-2010, 16:05
Good sights, a properly fit match barrel, and a good trigger are what's needed to shoot POA/POI.
We've all read stories about people shooting 2 inch groups at 25 yards - I've never seen it in person. I have 20/15 vision, and I can't discern a 2 inch dot at 25 yards clearly enough to put it on top of my front sight. At 25 yards, the sight post is bigger than the dot.

Aiden
10-26-2010, 17:33
Right, but a 1' round target at 7yards and a 1' target at 50yards will be perceived as different sizes. It doesnt matter if you focus on the front sight, that sight itself will appear larger that the entire target at 50yards, so there is no way you can possibly hold the barrel still enough (or even line it up in the first place) to hit a target 1.5" at that distance.

We've all read stories about people shooting 2 inch groups at 25 yards - I've never seen it in person. I have 20/15 vision, and I can't discern a 2 inch dot at 25 yards clearly enough to put it on top of my front sight. At 25 yards, the sight post is bigger than the dot.

To give my opinion to both of these, I don't think it's shooting at the 2inch area on the target. I think it's shooting at the much larger target and your shots end up in the 2inch area. Probably possible, I haven't seen it yet though.

If I were aiming at a target that looked like a dot at 25 yards...I don't think I'd be able to hit it.

But if I were shooting at a target that looked like a dot, but it had a 2 large poles on the side that I could put my front sight between, maybe I'd be able to hit the dot.

I have a couple pictures of my targets from a range session yesterday that might illustrate my point better.

HAIL CAESAR
10-26-2010, 17:50
We've all read stories about people shooting 2 inch groups at 25 yards - I've never seen it in person.

I can do it with a Baer and one DW that I fitted a tight bushing....sometimes. The trick for me is using a bag on a bench.

The big trick is using CT's at dusk..:whistling:

Aiden
10-26-2010, 17:52
The big trick is using CT's at dusk..:whistling:
^ this would do it. :D