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rube12345
10-27-2010, 10:03
Hello,

While cleaning after shooting 1500 rnds over a few days I noticed a ring of erosion around the striker slot in the breech face. I had noticed a slight ring before but I am pretty sure the ring became more pronounced in the last few days.
The loads used were made with Remington SPP. Since I switched to this batch of primers I have at times noted soot on the back of the brass which appears to be coming back from around the primer. I do not think I have noticed this with reloads before. I just sorted some brass and found 13 rounds with soot out of approx 250 fired. The majority seemed to be Blazer but also saw Speer, Remington and Federal.
Gun is a Gen 2 G17 which has been well used.
Loads were made with range pickup brass sorted to remove off brands and damaged brass. Remington 1 1/2 SPP (not newly purchased - on the shelf for years), Unique powder, Montana Gold 115gr HP. I worked up to the load over time and it is well within maximum loads in several references. Loads were done on Dillon equipment, with all rounds case gaged.
I suspect that the erosion is being caused by gasses venting backward around the primer cup. Does this make sense? How do I stop this from happening. Is it likely an issue with the primers? I thought I had read some time ago about an issue with some Remington primers, but I'm not sure about this. If it is a brass issue how would I go about solving that?
I am looking to replenish primers. If it is a primer issue can someone recommend primers to stay away from? CCI, Wolf and Tula seems to be the most inexpensive and instock now. I have loaded with CCI in the past but am leary of Wolf and Tula just because I have not loaded with them before.

Thank you for your input.

rube

dudel
10-27-2010, 10:16
Loose primer pockets? Sometimes caused by worn brass that has been used for hot loads in the past. On more reason to sort by headstamp. You get a consistent feel for the primer seating, and the odd loose one stands out.

PCJim
10-27-2010, 10:20
Rube, you're definitely getting gas cutting from the primer pockets. Being that there are several different brands of cases present in your pic that are showing the tell-tale soot ring, I'd bet that you have a batch of slightly undersized primers. Grab your calipers and compare their diameter with a differing lot or SAAMI standards.

It is possible (but unlikely) that since these casings are RPUs, they could simply be overstretched pockets due to numerous firings. The reason I state unlikely is that the headstamps do not appear to have had significant reductions/markings that typically indicate same.

After performing the measurement comparison, let us know what your results are.

Boxerglocker
10-27-2010, 12:21
CCI, Wolf and Tula seems to be the most inexpensive and instock now. I have loaded with CCI in the past but am leary of Wolf and Tula just because I have not loaded with them before.


The Wolf/Tula primers had issues with cetain batches last year. I when through well over 10K last year alone... they are hard to seat, but in this particular case with your issue, it might actually relieve some problems.

I agree with Dudel when he states 'Loose primer pockets?.... One more reason to sort by headstamp. You get a consistent feel for the primer seating, and the odd loose one stands out."

However, I personally don't have the time or the patience for it. a 2K a month I rotate anywhere between 5-7K in brass. I only sort headstamp for match days and the important ones at that.

Colorado4Wheel
10-27-2010, 13:05
I know you said your load is not too hot. Publish it here to double check it. GR, Powder, OAL, Bullet (type/weight).

Are you fully seating all the primers?

Can you feel the difference in the handle when you have a loose pocket (you should be able to on a 550)

Are some cases different (range pick ups added to your stash vs old stash). Maybe your getting someone elses crap in your stash.

I went through a batch of Remmington that were VERY hard to seat. I had to reinforce my previous bench because it was flexing to much as I tried to seat them. Every other primer was fine, that batch of 20K was a biatch. If they don't seat properly they will leak. Seat them HARD with a consistent force, they will not pop. Trust me.

fredj338
10-27-2010, 13:10
I agree, loose primer pockets &/or primers slightly undersized. I have found RP primers to be very slightly smaller in dia than other brands. I actually save my RP primers for use in brands of brass that I know have tight primer pockets. So a slightly small primer & a case that has stretched the primer pockets=gas cutting. There are signs you are getting primer flow back into the firing pin hole as well, not always a pressure sign, but in this case, it is confirming the primer leaking. Definitely unsafe using that load in that brass w/ that primer. As Steve requested, please post your entire load. Many shooters think they are fine & then miss some small point like OAL or using plated bullets w/ jacketed data.:dunno: BTW, case gaging doesn't tell you anything but the case is sized & crimped correctly, not if your OAL is right.

rube12345
10-27-2010, 13:47
Hello,

I measured 10 of the Remington 1 1/2 and found diameters ranging from 0.1730" to 0.1745", average was 0.17395".
I measured 10 Winchester WSP SPP and found diameters ranging from 0.1735" to 0.1745, average was 0.17385".

I did not find an official table of SAAMI specs for primer diameter but a google search seemed to point to 0.175" as the diameter of a SPP pocket. Can anyone confirm the spec for the primer diameter?

I cannot recommend the below load data to anyone as safe. Do not use the data.
Mixed range pickup brass. Cleaned in corn cob or walnut with polish and small amount of mineral spirits.
115gr Montana Gold JHP
6.1gr Unique
Overall length 1.125"
Loaded on a Dillon 650 with Lee dies.

The diameters do not seem off too much between the two brands I measured.
When sorting brass among getting rid of off brands I toss brass that has flattened primers, is buldged or when the headstamp looks flattened like it was loaded to high pressure. Brass is a mix of once shot factory loads I have shot, range pickup from public ranges which is once shot factory for the most part, my previous reloads and some I have purchased which was advetised as pick up from indoor ranges which do not sell reloads.

Perhaps I am not seating the primers with enough force? I have not found any primers that were seated high when I inspect the rounds after loading. What makes me wonder about this is the poster above posting about needing to really crush the primers in. My loading bench is very sturdy with hundreds of pounds of ballast. I am not moving it when loading and I feel like I am seating the primers fully, but I am in no way crushing them into the cases. The only time I found I had to really exert a lot of force seating primers was when loading 5.56 with CCI #41 primers.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

rube

Colorado4Wheel
10-27-2010, 14:45
I remember a occasion in the past that someone using Remmington had a real issue with seating them properly. He thought the same "I am pushing hard enough" I suggested he push harder and his problem went away. He was having high primers. Different issue but you could also be having seating issues. I would suggest loading 100 or so with more force then used in the past. Trust me, if you go slow but firmly on the handle they will not pop. See if that solves the issue. I had issues with Remmington needing more force as well.

Colorado4Wheel
10-27-2010, 14:47
For the record I never said "crush". I don't want you to be unsafe. Just try to seat them a little more to see if that helps.

Colorado4Wheel
10-27-2010, 15:03
I measured 10 of the Remington 1 1/2 and found diameters ranging from 0.1730" to 0.1735", average was 0.17395".
I measured 10 Winchester WSP SPP and found diameters ranging from 0.1735" to 0.1745, average was 0.17385".

Your math has to be off. No way for the "range" you describe to create a average that is bigger then the range of your Remington sample. Unless I am missing something obvious.

Either way, this isn't a math class so.....

I measured 15 CCI Small Pistol. Nearly all were .174" A small amount were .1735". Hardly worth mentioning for that small a change. Measuring to the .0005" is a little beyond what we can do reliably. The amount of force you use on the wheel can make that much of a change. I would call your Rem .173"

rube12345
10-27-2010, 15:12
Hello,

I hit the wrong key when typing in the data from Excel. The range of the Remington 1 1/2 SPP was 0.1730" to 0.1745", average 0.17395".

I edited the above post to correct my error.

Thanks,

rube

Colorado4Wheel
10-27-2010, 15:24
So they are the same as my CCI. I still say your not seating them hard enough with that info. Some are a little on the small side being @ .1730. And that is a pretty broad range you measure. Not very confidence inspiring when mine had a .0005" spread and your had a .0015" spread.

fredj338
10-27-2010, 15:52
So they are the same as my CCI. I still say your not seating them hard enough with that info. Some are a little on the small side being @ .1730. And that is a pretty broad range you measure. Not very confidence inspiring when mine had a .0005" spread and your had a .0015" spread.

Sorry, IMO, seating depth isn't the issue. If they weren't seated deep enough, they would likely not fire. It's a primer size/primer pocket size issue. The load is not +P, but is warm. Tight chamber, short throat & MG bullet jacket mat'l. could be combining to pushing pressures higher. FWIW, unless you are measuring w/ a micromemter, you'll likely not see any major dia diff. It won't take much w/ pressure running 32Kpsi to find a small gap.:dunno:

Colorado4Wheel
10-27-2010, 16:01
You may be right. But it certainly won't hurt to try seating with more force. I never said it's a "seating depth issue". I think it's a possibility they are not being seated hard enough to seal the primer pocket. Especially, if they are small and go in really easy so assume that seating depth is done and that is good enough. I could be wrong, but it certainly won't hurt to seat them with more force and see if that helps. He is kinda stuck with them at this point so it would be nice if something simple fixes the issue.

GioaJack
10-27-2010, 16:16
Either way, this isn't a math class so.....


ASK XDRoX, ASK XDRoX... he's a math teacher, he should know! Wait a minute, he teaches at a public school... he probably won't know. Nevermind. :whistling:


Jack

dudel
10-27-2010, 16:58
So they are the same as my CCI. I still say your not seating them hard enough with that info. Some are a little on the small side being @ .1730. And that is a pretty broad range you measure. Not very confidence inspiring when mine had a .0005" spread and your had a .0015" spread.

I don't think seating is the issue here (although it is a common problem). i think the OP mentioned there were no high primers. If he was seating high, I'd expect a few FTF and multiple stikes needed for the bang. OP gave a pretty detailed account. He can clarify if he's needing multiple strikes. If multiple strikes are needed, I'll buy into the high primer side.

Problem with range brass, is sometime you do get other shooters junk. I know the only brass I leave behind, is the stuff I no longer want (or can't recover in front of the lline!)

dudel
10-27-2010, 17:00
You may be right. But it certainly won't hurt to try seating with more force. I never said it's a "seating depth issue". I think it's a possibility they are not being seated hard enough to seal the primer pocket. Especially, if they are small and go in really easy so assume that seating depth is done and that is good enough. I could be wrong, but it certainly won't hurt to seat them with more force and see if that helps. He is kinda stuck with them at this point so it would be nice if something simple fixes the issue.

If the primers are going in real easy, then the pockets are too large for the primer. I just don't see how seating a primer harder in a loose pocket is going to contain a high pressure round. Sometimes, the brass just wears out.

We work so hard to remove crimps, now you see why it's done. I wonder if it's possible to crimp primer pockets with home gear?

rube12345
10-27-2010, 17:09
OP here.

All rounds have fired first strike. I've shot about 2000 rounds with this batch of primers, most of them with this 9mm load.
Gun is a stock Gen 2 G17, with stock barrel.
I visually check each loaded round's primer when I case gage them and have not seen any high primers.
I believe I am seating the primers firmly, but can try to seat them more firmly to see if it helps. I usually hold onto the frame of the press with my left hand after seating the bullet so I can put some pressure on the press handle when seating the primers.

Thanks for the ideas.

rube

Colorado4Wheel
10-27-2010, 17:29
If the primers are going in real easy, then the pockets are too large for the primer. I just don't see how seating a primer harder in a loose pocket is going to contain a high pressure round. Sometimes, the brass just wears out.

We work so hard to remove crimps, now you see why it's done. I wonder if it's possible to crimp primer pockets with home gear?

I agree, it's a long shot in a way. I do seat looser primers all the time and they never leak. I do like the OP and grab the frame with my Left hand as I seat the primer. I seat them firmly. Biggest issue is some of his primers are small. It's very likely that the small primers that line up with a big pocket will leak no matter what he does. Only option in that situation is to use these primers in newer brass and not shoot any of the rounds that feel like they are loose. He could also bring his charge down some to keep the pressure down.

PCJim
10-27-2010, 20:22
Rube, I cannot determine from the pic displayed. Are any of the primers sitting high after firing, as though they were trying to back out beyond flush with the case head?

dla
10-27-2010, 20:52
Looks more like you are cracking primers.

I seriously doubt you can get the same effect with a little leakage. You've got pierced primers, and a little reflow. If it were me, I would be looking for over-pressure causes. I wonder also if your primers aren't backing out a little and then getting mashed back in - might explain the cracking.

The following is an example of a cracked primer venting and pitting the metal on a revolver:
WLP crack and vent (https://sites.google.com/site/hobbyhintstricksideas/Home/s-w-329pd-info#TOC-Winchester-Large-Pistol-Primer-spli)

cole
10-28-2010, 02:34
OP: You have a bit of everything in those pics. Primer piercing, gas blow-by, primer cracks. Given it's different brass with the same issue I'd look to a primer issue first (loose primer); especially if the issue just cropped up when you switched primers.

Other things that can increase pressure are an undersized bore or oversized bullet, as well as the obvious OAL and powder charge. Does not seem the case hear if you've changed only the primer.

Me, I rarely sort brass. I buy what components I can get cheap, pickup range brass that I reload to low-mid pressures, figure reloading comes with tradeoffs and Glocks are cheap. I've had some minor gas cutting on my 9mm Glocks in the past. Might have even been from Remington SPP primers now that I think of it, but not 100% sure. I do avoid Remington primers unless that's all there is. Good luck.

Foxtrotx1
10-28-2010, 02:53
Question for everyone, Gas Cutting, what are the effects on the firearm?

Biggest Dawg
10-28-2010, 09:32
Remington recommends the 5 1/2 SPP for 40 S&W. With the 9mm having about the same pressure I would use those instead of the 1 1/2. The 5 1/2 is NOT a magnum primer, just manufactured for higher pressure loads.
A thought....
BD

dla
10-28-2010, 10:00
Question for everyone, Gas Cutting, what are the effects on the firearm?

Well I hate to be Captain Obvious, but look at the pictures :)

Foxtrotx1
10-28-2010, 10:15
Well I hate to be Captain Obvious, but look at the pictures :)

Well yes, the pics in the OP do show the results quite clearly. I meant as far as pistol life and reliability.

D. Manley
10-28-2010, 11:55
Hello,

I measured 10 of the Remington 1 1/2 and found diameters ranging from 0.1730" to 0.1745", average was 0.17395".
I measured 10 Winchester WSP SPP and found diameters ranging from 0.1735" to 0.1745, average was 0.17385".

I did not find an official table of SAAMI specs for primer diameter but a google search seemed to point to 0.175" as the diameter of a SPP pocket. Can anyone confirm the spec for the primer diameter?

I cannot recommend the below load data to anyone as safe. Do not use the data.
Mixed range pickup brass. Cleaned in corn cob or walnut with polish and small amount of mineral spirits.
115gr Montana Gold JHP
6.1gr Unique
Overall length 1.125"
Loaded on a Dillon 650 with Lee dies.

The diameters do not seem off too much between the two brands I measured.
When sorting brass among getting rid of off brands I toss brass that has flattened primers, is buldged or when the headstamp looks flattened like it was loaded to high pressure. Brass is a mix of once shot factory loads I have shot, range pickup from public ranges which is once shot factory for the most part, my previous reloads and some I have purchased which was advetised as pick up from indoor ranges which do not sell reloads.

Perhaps I am not seating the primers with enough force? I have not found any primers that were seated high when I inspect the rounds after loading. What makes me wonder about this is the poster above posting about needing to really crush the primers in. My loading bench is very sturdy with hundreds of pounds of ballast. I am not moving it when loading and I feel like I am seating the primers fully, but I am in no way crushing them into the cases. The only time I found I had to really exert a lot of force seating primers was when loading 5.56 with CCI #41 primers.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

rube

You may have some issues with primers but IMHO, you have a pressure problem. Your load is definitely on the warm side and is even above max according to some data. While I would not tend to think the load is in what I'd call "dangerous" territory, the signs are there that something's definitely not right. This could be attributed to or exacerbated by a number of things...inconsistent powder throws over-charging some loads, bullet setback, loose primers, etc., etc. Regardless of the cause, I think your load is hitting excessive pressures in your gun. At least one of the primers appears to be pierced and this ain't gonna' happen just cause it's loose or not seated well. I've fired a significant number of rounds in brass with primer pockets that have been stretched a bit and never seen gas escape like you're seeing. I think this is pressure, whatever the cause may be and you'd probably be wise to back off the load a bit and see what happens.

rube12345
10-28-2010, 14:53
dla, thanks for posting the link. After taking a look at the link and back at some of the fired cases I think what I have are cracked primers.

I punched a couple of the primers that appeared cracked while in the fired cases and attached a photo of how they look. There is a crack in the primers for sure.

I had not had this problem with the load until I switched to the Remington 1 1/2 primers. A Google search seems to indicated that the 5 1/2 primers have a thicker cup than the 1 1/2. My packages do not indicate this but I have read that newer boxes of 1 1/2 state that they should not be used in higher pressure loads like 40 SW and .357. I am unclear why 9mm would not be included on this list because the tables I have looked at show both 40SW and 9mm Luger has having a SAAMI max pressure of 35,000 psi.

I agree that with these primers the load seems too hot. I'll back of the charge and work it up again.

I only have a thousand or so 1 1/2 primers left. Primers have been difficult to find locally at a good price and in quantity. I have been using what I can find. As prices seem to be coming down I would like to stock up. CCI, Wolf and Tula seem to be in stock at many places. Any positive or negative things to say about these or other primers? Any recommendations for small rifle and small pistol primers to buy or ones to stay away from?

Someone had asked if it looked like the primers were setting back in the case with firing. When looking at fired cases I do not see primers that are obviously set back in the cases.

Thanks for the help.

rube

rube12345
11-14-2010, 13:00
Hello,

So I tried backing off on the powder charge about 5% and shooting a little more.

First I loaded the 75 or so Remington 1 1/2 primers that were still loaded in the reloader. When they ran out I loaded 100 with Winchester small pistol primers. Then I tried 25 using CCI small rifle primers. I wanted to try the small rifle primers because I have heard that many in competative shooting use them because the cups are thicker and when they try to push 9mm to major power factor they often have trouble with pierced pistol primers. From what I understand the small rifle primer's thicker cup metal makes this less of an issue. I'm not trying to load major and have no interest in loading rounds over standard pressures. I wanted to see if I would still have the problem with pierced primers with what I believe is a thicker metal cup on the rifle primers.

When looking at the recovered brass I found the following.

Of the 60 recovered pieces of brass loaded with Remington 1 1/2 small pistol primers 6 of them had soot on the back indicating pierced primers. I decapped 3 of them and found the same cracks or pierced areas as the photos above show.

I recovered 94 of the 100 rounds loaded with Winchester small pistol primers. None of them had soot on the back of the cases or had what appeared to pierced primers.

I recovered all 25 of the rounds loaded with CCI small rifle primers. None had soot on the back of the case. None appeared to have pierced primers.

So I'm not sure what conclusions to draw, but I do not think I will be buying anymore Remington 1 1/2 primers.

Obviously I would not recommend anyone use rifle primers (or any of my load data) in place of pistol primers. I was just curious to see if the primers would work in a pistol as I had read that it is a common practice but had not ever done that myself.

rube

dudel
11-14-2010, 13:22
Good followup Rube. I'd contact Remington as there appears to be a problem with that batch of primers. I suspect they will make good and send you a new brick. I haven't used too many Remington primers in the past; but when I did; I didn't see cracks or leaks.

rube12345
04-23-2011, 14:13
So it took me a while but I finally followed up with Remington.

I called them and they sent me a return label. I sent them back fired cases in which the primers were cracked as well as 100 loaded rounds.

I just got a reply from them.

It seems to me like they are saying that my problem was caused by primers that cracked because they were old.

This was a an old case of 5000 primers. It was stored inside and sealed until I started to load with them. I used them because I was having trouble finding new primers at reasonable prices to buy.

Now I have to figure out what to do with the loaded rounds I still have as well as the unused primers. I've got 1000 rnds of 40SW and 700 or so 9mm as well as maybe 500 unloaded primers left from this case that has given me problems.

Anyway, I thought someone might be interested in follow up on the problem I was having.

I scanned the reply from Remington but was unable to attach it to this because with the other photos I posted in this thread it would exceed my 1MB upload limit on this site.

Their reply included...
"Dear Sir,
We have reviewed the two X22600 primers with primer leaks that you returned. The ballistic technician examined the primer cups and determined the leaks were caused by stress cracks in the brass cups that have occured over time. These primers were manufactured in early 1990's. We normally cannot warranty products that have been out of our care for over 15 years.
We do work hard at trying to provide quality products to all our customers. Our quality system does have a computerized database for process tracking and extensive ballistics testing is part of the control plan. We apologize for any inconvience this may have caused and are sorry that you had a problem with primers of our manufacture.
To be fair as possible and as a gesture of good will a reimbursement check for $30 you may use toward the purchase of fresh Remington primers will be forthcoming from our accounting department within 15 working days."

Thanks,

rube

fredj338
04-23-2011, 14:35
I'm not sure I buy the "old primers" line. I primers that I am just going thru from 1990-91, RPLP, still load fine in the 45acp & 44mag, no indication of stress cracks in any primers. Could just be a lot of bad primers, happens. The load you were using was certainly running the top end though, especially w/ the shorter OAL. A change to another brand is worth a try. Maybe save the rest of those for a low pressure 38sp load.

WiskyT
04-23-2011, 14:50
I didn't know brass primer cups got weakened from sitting idle in a room :rolleyes:

It sounds like Rem made a bad batch, covered their butte, and sent you $30.00 for your trouble.

I have used primers that were 30yo with no trouble.

WiskyT
04-23-2011, 14:52
Oh, and thanks for the followup. I hate when posters start a thread about a problem and then vanish.