Sacrificing caliber for capacity- what's your cutoff? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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breacher1
10-27-2010, 14:11
First and foremost- I'm not starting a caliber war here. This question is for 40 cal and 357 Sig shooters only. 9mm fans can keep it moving.

Where do you draw the line when giving up capacity for larger caliber? Example- G19 mag holds 15 rds and you only lose 2 rds when moving into a G23 or 32. However other pistols such as the Beretta 92 style hold 15 rds of 9mm but drop all the way down to 11 rds of 40 cal. (in the mags only)

If you are a hardcore 40 or 357 fan how many rds would you give up before saying screw it and switching to a hot 9 in your favorite pistol? (This is mostly hypothetical) Thanks for your thoughts!!!

Berto
10-27-2010, 14:18
9mm is better than both those rounds, and I like your steyr pistol.

cowboy1964
10-27-2010, 14:24
That's the first pistol I've heard of that drops 4 from 15. Typical (as you pointed out) is 2.

It really wouldn't bother me if that was my favorite gun. Kind of annoying but it wouldn't cause me to give it up.

breacher1
10-27-2010, 14:27
ha ha, thanks. that's kinda why I started this thread. That Steyr was an M40 that held 12 rds of 40. Then I chopped the butt to S40 length and use 10 rd S40 mags.

It shoots great and is only about 1/4 to 1/2 inch shorter in the butt than my G19. Both have 4 in. barrels. That got me to thinking - it's 40 vs. 9 but I'm giving up 5 rds of 9mm to carry the Steyr 40. I like 'em both equally.

Tale of woe........

mesteve2
10-27-2010, 14:28
I would want a Glock 38 or 37 that is it.

I would not trust the others!

Milezenji
10-27-2010, 15:06
heh, I must be a freak of nature.

I carry 6+1 of 45 ACP usually. With 2 spare mags, though.

13 rounds of +P 230 gr HP and 6 rounds of FMJ. I hope it is enough if I need it, I suspect it will be.

frank_drebin
10-27-2010, 15:14
Breacher. What would possess a man to chop his pistol grip like that?? I would be way to scared for such things. Tell me more about this "Steyr" brand of pistol. I'm not sure if I've ever heard of them before. :supergrin:

fredj338
10-27-2010, 15:43
I have a diff outlook. Living in a 10rd max state, how large a gun do you carry for your 10rds? I will carry my G26 w/ 10, but not a G17 or even G19, no point really, might as well go to a larger caliber for my 10rds. It's one reason a 1911 8+1 doesn't bother me.:dunno: You still have to get hits w/ what you have.

BgDnTx
10-27-2010, 15:56
I have in the past been tormented by the decision between my G23 and G30, which are both almost the same physical size but with a 4 round difference, and caliber, and speed, and hitting power. Solved the mental anguish with Winchester Talons and now I'm ok with either. And backup both with full size G22 and G21 mags if I have to stick around a while.

Clem Eastwood
10-27-2010, 16:07
back in the days of the AWB i carried a .40 SIG P229 w/ 10 +1. after the AWB expired i went to a P229 9mm and picked up 3 rounds. i know that isnt exactly the question, but thats probably what i would consider the number to be significant enough to make a move.

shotgunred
10-27-2010, 17:47
I carry a G23 (40 sw) and would not switch to a G27 (40 sw). You lose rounds and more importantly grip.

I wouldn't switch to a G19 to gain two rounds.

I would feel fine carrying a G38 (45 GAP) or a G32 (357 sig)

Daryl in Az
10-27-2010, 18:03
I'm not sure that "compromise" in caliber is even a consideration when I buy a gun.

I.E., if I don't like the capacity of the Beretta 92, I'll carry a different pistol instead of going to a smaller cartridge.

I carry a G23 most of the time these days, and I wouldn't switch to a G19 to gain two rounds in the magazine.

My firearm collection is to a point where most of my firearms fit into fairly specific uses, and the 9mm doesn't fill any need for me. Therefore, there's no compromise, and no desire to carry a 9mm.

Daryl

Glolt20-91
10-28-2010, 00:12
My Steyr M40-A1 has seen a lot more CCW time than the G17 and the Steyr is more comfortable to shoot, even with full power handloads. :thumbsup:

I go back to the years when we carried .357mag and 1911s, so magazine capacity isn't a priority with me. Based upon experience, I'm very confident with first shot placement.

Bob :cowboy:

167
10-28-2010, 01:33
My cut off in any caliber is 15 unless forced to carry less (i.e. issued duty weapon).

You can burn through a lot of bullets really fast in a gunfight.

NonPCnraRN
10-28-2010, 02:16
Being another Californian the 10 round mag limit makes choices moot regarding 9mm vs 40. Being used to 1911 type pistols (Milspec, Star PD, Colt Gov't 380 and Mustang) 6-7 rounds is something I have become accustomed to. I always considered the auto as a few rounds more than a revolver of comparable size ie 5-6 shots. So a 10 round mag is more than what I consider minimal and mags are certainly faster than speedloaders. My age is showing. I prefer the G23 or G27 with sleeved G23 mags unless I need the compactness of the G27 with original mag. The barrel length difference between the G23 and G27 is of little significance where velocity is concerned. So if I were limited to one model it would be the G27 with either the G23 or G27 mags depending on need. I prefer solid bullets with large meplats and the DT 200 gr with its .32 inch meplat is larger than even 45 cal SWC meplats. If a commercial loader would come out with a .45 ACP with a 230 gr WFN that feeds reliably I would consider the G36. But for right now the G27 is my choice. An aftermarket 357 Sig barrel and mag adds to the options available should I decide I need a caliber that doesn't start with a "4".

cole
10-28-2010, 02:56
OP: I'll play along. How I feel today:

Full size: 15+1 rounds of .40sw in the G22. I'd this (using 180gr) over the G21sf.

Compact: 13+1 rounds of .40sw in the G23. I'd take only the G30 over this.

Sub-Compact: 9+1 rounds of .40sw in the G27. I'd take only the G26 over this.

The G26 is as small and as low-capacity as I'll go in 9mm. The selling point for the 9mm IMO is small or high capacity. I usually opt for .45acp when I can.

I have no use for .357sig. And, I don't have use for the .40sw given statements above. I choose 9mm for capacity and .45acp for projectile weight.

fastbolt
10-28-2010, 11:54
I don't usually get sidetracked by the sheer capacity of a weapon I'm selecting for off-duty or now retirement.

I have small 9's with mag capacities of 7, 8 & 10 rounds, and small .40's with mag capacities of 7, 9 & 10 rounds. I do have a full-size .40 which has 12-rd mags, but I seldom carry it. (I even have a couple of .45's with mag capacities of 6 rounds, and others I own run upward to 7, 8 & 10 rounds, but those are outside the calibers mentioned in the original post. ;) ) I don't use .357SIG, but if I did, I'd consider mag capacity no more or less important of a factor than I would another caliber weapon.

Now, how well an owner or user can actually acurately and effectively use & shoot his/her choice ... meaning caliber/recoil management & platform design ... especially under some controlled stress involved in some training & qual conditions? I'd consider this before I considered capacity ...

Suit yourself. Choose wisely.

Berto
10-28-2010, 12:18
I'm not overly concerned about capacity vs all the other variables that determine my acceptance of a given weapon. It's one of many things.

GunFighter45ACP
10-29-2010, 09:15
In the 9mm vs. .40 world, I choose 9mm, because I'm more accurate w/it than w/the .40. To me, the extra 2 rounds are a bonus, but not a deciding factor.

Yet, I own & occasionally carry a G27, because the higher # of rounds it offers seems like an advantage to me over the round count if I carried one of my 3" 1911s. IMO, these days, the threat has evolved to a point where having a higher capacity must be considered in order for you to remain tactically viable. 13 of .40 vs. 15 of 9mm to me is a wash, but I think either is better than 6+1 of something else.

DonGlock26
10-29-2010, 10:02
I consider 9mm, .357sig, and .40 pistols to be generally high cap pistols to me. .45acp and .38spl. capacity differences bother me much more.

BOGE
10-29-2010, 13:42
Many times I CCW a Charter Arms .44 Spcl. loaded with five Corbon 200 gr. DPX with a speed strip.


¨Here lies Les Moore, four slugs from a .44. No less no more.¨


:supergrin:

NonPCnraRN
10-29-2010, 14:10
Many times I CCW a Charter Arms .44 Spcl. loaded with five Corbon 200 gr. DPX with a speed strip.


¨Here lies Les Moore, four slugs from a .44. No less no more.¨


:supergrin:

I shot the original 19 oz 3" barrel Charter Bulldog. It belonged to a friend of mine. With the standard 246 gr RN lead the cylinder latch had a habit of removing flesh from my thumb during recoil. I hope the Corbon ammo is a little easier on the hand. The gun was used once to settle an angry situation and all it took was the BG staring at the muzzle end of that belly gun to get religion real quick. It is hard for a BG to be macho when pee is running down his leg. That gun was not pleasurable to shoot but it was comforting to have when things got ugly.

Palmguy
10-29-2010, 14:35
The only .40/.357 I have is a Sig P229 (I've got both barrels for it). It holds 12+1 compared to the OEM 13 round 9mm mags or the 15 round Mecgar mags which I've found work just as well as the Sig logo'd mags. I'm ok with the 3 round loss.

1time
10-29-2010, 14:55
My turn off with the the 45 GAP is the capacity. A 10 round mag in a full size double stack pistol is ridiculous. I carry a G21 for the extra 3 rounds or a 27 for 1 less round in a sub compact.

I still don't get how they get 15 rounds to work going from a 20 to a 22 but lose 3 rounds going from the 21 to the 37. I feel like we are getting ripped off somewhere.

BOGE
10-29-2010, 15:29
My turn off with the the 45 GAP is the capacity. A 10 round mag in a full size double stack pistol is ridiculous. I carry a G21 for the extra 3 rounds or a 27 for 1 less round in a sub compact.

I still don't get how they get 15 rounds to work going from a 20 to a 22 but lose 3 rounds going from the 21 to the 37. I feel like we are getting ripped off somewhere.

The grip is different. The G37 has the same grip as the G19 while the G21 has the huge 2X4 grip made for King Kong.

DWARREN123
10-29-2010, 15:33
I am a 40 cal shooter and go with 15 + 1 in a Glock 22. I do have a couple of G23's but like to carry the G22. :supergrin:

CanyonMan
10-29-2010, 17:24
I'm perfectly comfortable, and confident, in my 6 in the mag and 1 in the chamber M1911 45acp. On rare occasion I will carry the Ruger 5 shot SP101 with full house 357mags, and feel good with that as well. It is the first shot I'm focused on and that counts anyway. If more are needed, I still got 6 in the one and 4 in the other.



CM

1SGMP
10-29-2010, 18:15
In the 9mm vs. .40 world, I choose 9mm, because I'm more accurate w/it than w/the .40. To me, the extra 2 rounds are a bonus, but not a deciding factor.

Yet, I own & occasionally carry a G27, because the higher # of rounds it offers seems like an advantage to me over the round count if I carried one of my 3" 1911s. IMO, these days, the threat has evolved to a point where having a higher capacity must be considered in order for you to remain tactically viable. 13 of .40 vs. 15 of 9mm to me is a wash, but I think either is better than 6+1 of something else.
My thoughts exactly. Todays threat needs to be meet with Hi round count (just my thoughts) My G26 with the pierce extension gives you a 12 round mag with one in the chamber. Pretty tought combo to beat with a spare mag. The 2 or 3 extra rounds are enough to make me want to carry a 26/27/33 over a 1911 style weapon (Single stack)

kimo
10-29-2010, 18:36
40mm 1 round

janice6
10-29-2010, 18:56
G27 and I found a way that works for me, to carry a 15 round magazine with jeans and 'T' (XL) shirt. All summer, 7 yrs, no problems.

I want the rounds because I have never been in a gun fight, and I know I'm not an expert marksman. With the Fright or Flight stress, I know every round will not hit it's mark, I'll have a chance to cope.

unit1069
10-29-2010, 20:57
Where do you draw the line when giving up capacity for larger caliber? Example- G19 mag holds 15 rds and you only lose 2 rds when moving into a G23 or 32. However other pistols such as the Beretta 92 style hold 15 rds of 9mm but drop all the way down to 11 rds of 40 cal. (in the mags only)

If two rounds difference (or even as many as four in the pistols mentioned) between 9mm and .40S&W/.357sig is going to make THAT much difference then the poor defender got him/herself into a very unusual self-defense situation.

fredj338
10-29-2010, 22:21
If two rounds difference (or even as many as four in the pistols mentioned) between 9mm and .40S&W/.357sig is going to make THAT much difference then the poor defender got him/herself into a very unusual self-defense situation.
A seriously valid statement for CCW. Your gun is to get you out of trouble, not keep you in it. WHile it's always nice to have more rounds, more rounds also allows you less trigger control. You see it all the time in competition & actual shootings where round count takes over for marksmanship. Spray & pray has only gotten more popular w/ higher round counts.:dunno:
I always carry a spare mag or reload for the rev but that is more for a malfunction than firepower.

unit1069
10-30-2010, 08:07
A seriously valid statement for CCW. Your gun is to get you out of trouble, not keep you in it. WHile it's always nice to have more rounds, more rounds also allows you less trigger control. You see it all the time in competition & actual shootings where round count takes over for marksmanship. Spray & pray has only gotten more popular w/ higher round counts.:dunno:
I always carry a spare mag or reload for the rev but that is more for a malfunction than firepower.

Not being a competition shooter myself that's a very interesting observation, fred. I have never previously heard or read about this. And I can certainly see how the higher round count might give an uninformed defender a false sense of security.

1SGMP
10-30-2010, 08:27
A seriously valid statement for CCW. Your gun is to get you out of trouble, not keep you in it. WHile it's always nice to have more rounds, more rounds also allows you less trigger control. You see it all the time in competition & actual shootings where round count takes over for marksmanship. Spray & pray has only gotten more popular w/ higher round counts.:dunno:
I always carry a spare mag or reload for the rev but that is more for a malfunction than firepower.
Hi
Jan 4, 2010 Las Vegas Court house a gunman and court security/deputy marshal exchanged more than 45 rounds. this was an early am shooting from a man who was simply denied a social security case. more than 45 rounds, just imagine being a innocent civilian (with a CCW permit) walking to work or getting a cup of coffee. The bad guy leaves the court and continues his shooting spree. I think a hi cap weapon would come in handy dont you? thats one of many i can come up with.
1SG Out

unit1069
10-30-2010, 09:02
Hi
Jan 4, 2010 Las Vegas Court house a gunman and court security/deputy marshal exchanged more than 45 rounds. this was an early am shooting from a man who was simply denied a social security case. more than 45 rounds, just imagine being a innocent civilian (with a CCW permit) walking to work or getting a cup of coffee. The bad guy leaves the court and continues his shooting spree. I think a hi cap weapon would come in handy dont you? thats one of many i can come up with.
1SG Out

You may inadvertently be making fred's case for him.

Out of those total 45 rounds how many were hits?

1SGMP
10-30-2010, 09:08
You may inadvertently be making fred's case for him.

Out of those total 45 rounds how many were hits?
good point,not sure but the bad guy had a pump12 ga and just started blazing away, If it was loaded with Buckshot then alot of damage can be done. My point was it would be nice to have a Hi cap weapon to meet the threat at hand. i somewhat agree that a hi cap weapon may give a sense of false security. But it could also be a life saver.

Dandapani
10-30-2010, 09:11
I refuse to go lower than 5 rounds of 9mm in my S/W 940 snub.

fredj338
10-30-2010, 09:23
good point,not sure but the bad guy had a pump12 ga and just started blazing away, If it was loaded with Buckshot then alot of damage can be done. My point was it would be nice to have a Hi cap weapon to meet the threat at hand. i somewhat agree that a hi cap weapon may give a sense of false security. But it could also be a life saver.
My point exactly. In the heat of a gunfight, w/o good training & mental prep, many revert to spray & pray BECAUSE they know they have all those lovely rounds. WHen they geet to the last mag, THEN they bear down & start delivering good hits. In a LEO scenario, the LEO must stay engaged, it is his job. You or I can fight to retreat. You or I would not have been in that scenario, no guns allowed in court. If you were a passer bye & the fight spills into the street, you only need your gun to fight to retreat.
While it may work for bad guys, no civil liability, for soldiers & LEO, limited civil liability, it doesn'y work at all for CCW types. Every round you let fly better hit something that can't sue you. Ugly truth but that is it. So the Marshal can blaze away & blame any missed rounds on the BG for starting the fight. YOu as a civy can not. If you choose to draw your weapon & engage, the rounds better land on target.
Many CCW guys practice & are far more proficient w/ their pistols than court ballifs & most street cops. From shooting w/ LEO in comps & quals, I can attest to that. So while round count is not to be dismissed, it should not be what determines the winner of the fight. Only hits count, good hits count more than bad hits. Front sight, press, get good hits, fights over. Yes, there are the rare exceptions of the drugged crazed, bullet proof whacko, then get really good hits. As always, JMO, but far too much is made about round count. One reason the 9mm is still so popular.:whistling:

1SGMP
10-30-2010, 12:10
My point exactly. In the heat of a gunfight, w/o good training & mental prep, many revert to spray & pray BECAUSE they know they have all those lovely rounds. WHen they geet to the last mag, THEN they bear down & start delivering good hits. In a LEO scenario, the LEO must stay engaged, it is his job. You or I can fight to retreat. You or I would not have been in that scenario, no guns allowed in court. If you were a passer bye & the fight spills into the street, you only need your gun to fight to retreat.
While it may work for bad guys, no civil liability, for soldiers & LEO, limited civil liability, it doesn'y work at all for CCW types. Every round you let fly better hit something that can't sue you. Ugly truth but that is it. So the Marshal can blaze away & blame any missed rounds on the BG for starting the fight. YOu as a civy can not. If you choose to draw your weapon & engage, the rounds better land on target.
Many CCW guys practice & are far more proficient w/ their pistols than court ballifs & most street cops. From shooting w/ LEO in comps & quals, I can attest to that. So while round count is not to be dismissed, it should not be what determines the winner of the fight. Only hits count, good hits count more than bad hits. Front sight, press, get good hits, fights over. Yes, there are the rare exceptions of the drugged crazed, bullet proof whacko, then get really good hits. As always, JMO, but far too much is made about round count. One reason the 9mm is still so popular.:whistling:
Only need your gun to fight to retreat??? Not sure I understand that or agree, so let me understand this. If you, Fred are in a gun fight (god forbid) you would retreat? what if thats not an option? what if you had to stand your ground? I agree that a civilian has different rules and is accountable for his/her actions. How about the scenarion in a coffee shop in Washington State Nov 2009. Where four police officers were gunned down by a scum bag who was armed with two (2) weapons. I believe his glock malfunctioned becaused he pressed the barrel against the temple of the second offcer he shot and killed. The third officer seeing an opportunity fights him where as the bad guy draws a second weapon (chief special) and shoots the 3rd officer in the head. Had you been in the coffee shop Fred, would you retreat?? would you help? tough decision I know, just curious as to what a civilian would do. FWIW I am currently a LEO .
Thanks
1SG

glock20c10mm
10-30-2010, 12:14
First and foremost- I'm not starting a caliber war here. This question is for 40 cal and 357 Sig shooters only. 9mm fans can keep it moving.

Where do you draw the line when giving up capacity for larger caliber? Example- G19 mag holds 15 rds and you only lose 2 rds when moving into a G23 or 32. However other pistols such as the Beretta 92 style hold 15 rds of 9mm but drop all the way down to 11 rds of 40 cal. (in the mags only)

If you are a hardcore 40 or 357 fan how many rds would you give up before saying screw it and switching to a hot 9 in your favorite pistol? (This is mostly hypothetical) Thanks for your thoughts!!!

Well, I'm not a 9mm fan (you mean some people really carry those???:shocked:.........sorry, just little humor:whistling:) .........and the 10mm Auto, shall I say, has the same fatness as 40S&W/357SIG.......though my platform size is different, allowing me a single addtional round in a stock G29 mag (compared to a G27 or G33), at the expense of a larger platform in general, though, the 10mm cartridge itself outweighs that con for me. And if everything 10mm ceased to exist tomorrow, I'ld be jumping over to the 357SIG bandwagon.

In my G29 I carry 15 round mags in the gun when feasible. When not feasible, obviously that leaves me with a 10 round mag in the gun. Either way, 99% of the time, I also have a spare 15 round mag with me. So I'm almost always carrying around either 25 or 30 rounds of ammo. For me, it makes me feel well served. Not to be confused with being overly confident because of round count, as my intentions are for the first 1 or 2 or 3 rounds to do the job if possible, though, this cannot be planned. No guarantees in a gunfight other than that bullets will be flying, and hopefully our accuracy is better than the BGs.

I think the bottom line is to be as prepared as reasonably possible (most ammo possible) for your immediate carry situation/requirement(s). If the smallest of small platforms is what one is sometimes limited to, then outside of your own control (assuming you're not going to avoid that carry scenario all together), 5 or 6 rounds is better than nothing. In my walk of life, 25 - 30 rounds works almost all the time. Others may be forced to settle for less, which takes us back to the first sentence of this paragraph.

Keep in mind; Spare mags are pretty easy to carry, definately way smaller than the overall platform you're already carrying. So if you carry a G27 or G33, you've got 10 rounds to start with if you carry with a loaded chamber. Even if you just lug around another stock mag your round count just jumped to 19 rounds (again, assuming your chamber is loaded). Since mags are so easy to carry, I'ld jump right to a G22/G31 mag for the spare mag, jumping your round count to 25 (again, assuming you're carrying with a loaded chamber), and that's only if you haven't added a +1 or +2 mag extender to either of your carry mags.

See how quickly, and for some of us easily, round count can be bumped up real quick. And personally I just stay away from revolvers just because of the reload hinderance as compared to a perfectly good semi-auto.


Good Shooting,
Craig

1time
10-30-2010, 12:16
The grip is different. The G37 has the same grip as the G19 while the G21 has the huge 2X4 grip made for King Kong.

The G38 is the same as the G19

The grip on the G37 is the same as the G22, the grip on the G21 is the same as the G20.

The G20 and G22 have the same mag capacity. The G37 and G21 do not. We are getting ripped. Either they can fit more into the G20, or they could fit more into the G37.

Either way, I want as many rounds as possible in the biggest cal. I can conceal. Sometimes that is 6 rounds of .380, sometimes that is 13 rounds of .45. I don't think anyone has ever complained about having too much ammo.

Angry Fist
10-30-2010, 12:19
I refuse to give up either power or capacity... :supergrin:

BOGE
10-30-2010, 14:12
The G38 is the same as the G19

The grip on the G37 is the same as the G22, the grip on the G21 is the same as the G20...

You`re right. I meant the grip CIRCUMFERENCE & not the length. My mistake in not clarifying & I have both the G19 & G38. :whistling:

fredj338
10-30-2010, 14:59
Only need your gun to fight to retreat??? Not sure I understand that or agree, so let me understand this. If you, Fred are in a gun fight (god forbid) you would retreat? what if thats not an option? what if you had to stand your ground? I agree that a civilian has different rules and is accountable for his/her actions. How about the scenarion in a coffee shop in Washington State Nov 2009. Where four police officers were gunned down by a scum bag who was armed with two (2) weapons. I believe his glock malfunctioned becaused he pressed the barrel against the temple of the second offcer he shot and killed. The third officer seeing an opportunity fights him where as the bad guy draws a second weapon (chief special) and shoots the 3rd officer in the head. Had you been in the coffee shop Fred, would you retreat?? would you help? tough decision I know, just curious as to what a civilian would do. FWIW I am currently a LEO .
Thanks
1SG
The point is broad based. Your CCW is to protect yourself & immediate family, not become a LEO & crime fighter. So fighting to retreat maybe a bit of a broad term, but yes, if I find myself in a gunfight, I am certainly loooking to end it or get out of it as fast as possible, not stay engaged & chase the gunman around playing tag w/ bullets. That is for the LEO w/ vests & long guns & backup.
As to your scenario, sure, I've been in sim setups where you think "what if". I can assure you, I would not have needed a G19 & 50rds to have come to the aid of those 4 unfortuante LEO. They were caught by surprise as would the gunman had I or yo ubeen their & put one or two into his head.
Again, think of your CCW as a means to live & fight another day, not go to war. FOr that, a long gun is a better tool. Far too many Rambo types out there that think their CCW is somehow a badge & authority. It is NOT, it is a means for you to survive an event. It is not your duty to be LE, if that is what you want to do, then join a LEA.:whistling:

1SGMP
10-30-2010, 16:23
The point is broad based. Your CCW is to protect yourself & immediate family, not become a LEO & crime fighter. So fighting to retreat maybe a bit of a broad term, but yes, if I find myself in a gunfight, I am certainly loooking to end it or get out of it as fast as possible, not stay engaged & chase the gunman around playing tag w/ bullets. That is for the LEO w/ vests & long guns & backup.
As to your scenario, sure, I've been in sim setups where you think "what if". I can assure you, I would not have needed a G19 & 50rds to have come to the aid of those 4 unfortuante LEO. They were caught by surprise as would the gunman had I or yo ubeen their & put one or two into his head.
Again, think of your CCW as a means to live & fight another day, not go to war. FOr that, a long gun is a better tool. Far too many Rambo types out there that think their CCW is somehow a badge & authority. It is NOT, it is a means for you to survive an event. It is not your duty to be LE, if that is what you want to do, then join a LEA.:whistling:
Point taken and undrstood. It's just that the 2 scenarios I pointed out are just plain crazy. A man who was denied a benefit goes on a shooting spree. And a Man who decided it was his turn to shoot and kill a few LEO (4). It's a crazy world and I do not see an end in sight.

167
10-30-2010, 19:08
Something to keep in mind when determining how much in gun ammunition is enough, is that handgun bullets generally are not good at what they are intended to do.

At the typical self defense range tenths of a second make a difference in how close to dying we get. We might be able to defend ourselves with a good couple shots to high center chest of the bad guy, but if we can shoot 5 more into the bad guy and end the threat a couple tenths faster would it not be wise to do so? Those couple tenths may be what keeps us alive.

There is no confidence to be had in the effectiveness of a handgun round, even a well placed one. Will it take 10 or 15 rounds to defend ouselves, probably not, but maybe it will and I would hate to end up on the wrong side of the statistic. That is why we carry guns anyway isn't it? I mean really, what are the odds we will ever need it, but we still carry it all the time.

I think that if we lived in a world where people made regular use of a handgun for self defense we wouldn't be having this discussion. Just my opinion though.

fredj338
10-30-2010, 19:19
Something to keep in mind when determining how much in gun ammunition is enough, is that handgun bullets generally are not good at what they are intended to do.

At the typical self defense range tenths of a second make a difference in how close to dying we get. We might be able to defend ourselves with a good couple shots to high center chest of the bad guy, but if we can shoot 5 more into the bad guy and end the threat a couple tenths faster would it not be wise to do so? Those couple tenths may be what keeps us alive.

There is no confidence to be had in the effectiveness of a handgun round, even a well placed one. Will it take 10 or 15 rounds to defend ouselves, probably not, but maybe it will and I would hate to end up on the wrong side of the statistic. That is why we carry guns anyway isn't it? I mean really, what are the odds we will ever need it, but we still carry it all the time.

I think that if we lived in a world where people made regular use of a handgun for self defense we wouldn't be having this discussion. Just my opinion though.

Agreed, assuming those extra 5rds all land on the bad guy. We have to fight within certain constraints that a BG does not. Hosing down an area & hoping to get hits will certainly land you in court, jail or the poor house. Everyone has to make up their own mind when they kit up & go out in public. Me, I am not involved unless I have to be. The case of the ambushed LEO, well, that one would get me involved, but then you better hope you are not viewed as a BG yourself in the heat of the fight & can end it before it gets into a protracted, running gunfight. I can just see you presenting at the first shot or two & pointing in at the BG & some other CCW or one of the ambushed LEO thinks you are part of the ambush & kills you. See, it's not always so clear cut.
One has to balance their ability w/ what & how they carry. I've just heard too many newb CCW guys thinking they need to carry 50rds & a G19 to feel "safe". Me thinks they live in a really bad area or they need more practice. If you can't hit your target in practice or a match, you aren't likley to do it under stress of a gunfight. Get some training, practice & train regularly, pick a platform & caliber you are comfortable with & go forth. Just keep in mind that what ever you choose to get into or are forced to get into, you will be on the hook civily, so spray & pray or covering fire just isn't practical. Once you engage, the sooner the fight is over, the less threat there is to everyone around you. You may not miss many times, but the BG is likely to miss more & you will be held just as liable.:wow:

blackbmw
10-30-2010, 19:48
Im paranoid. I ALWAYS expect 2 to 3 bad guys in a scenario. my carry is a G31 Loaded with buffalo bore 125gr ammo. If you think that a 9mm moving at 1150fps vs. the same moving at 1550fps are the same then you smoke too much crack. sorry to burst your bubble but the 357 sig with personal protection ammo isnt the 1200fps sleeper you think it is. i chrono'ed sellier and bellow 140gr rounds at 1420fps out of my gun. I want 15rds of serious *** kickin "lets blast thru your 1978 cadillac on 24's to kill you" type of guy, cause thats what we have to deal with here in st. louis. Im much more comfortable with my choice of caliber than with a 9mm in all aspects. In a serious handgun, 15rds is my minimum just in case.

167
10-30-2010, 20:04
Agreed, assuming those extra 5rds all land on the bad guy. We have to fight within certain constraints that a BG does not. Hosing down an area & hoping to get hits will certainly land you in court, jail or the poor house. Everyone has to make up their own mind when they kit up & go out in public. Me, I am not involved unless I have to be. The case of the ambushed LEO, well, that one would get me involved, but then you better hope you are not viewed as a BG yourself in the heat of the fight & can end it before it gets into a protracted, running gunfight. I can just see you presenting at the first shot or two & pointing in at the BG & some other CCW or one of the ambushed LEO thinks you are part of the ambush & kills you. See, it's not always so clear cut.
One has to balance their ability w/ what & how they carry. I've just heard too many newb CCW guys thinking they need to carry 50rds & a G19 to feel "safe". Me thinks they live in a really bad area or they need more practice. If you can't hit your target in practice or a match, you aren't likley to do it under stress of a gunfight. Get some training, practice & train regularly, pick a platform & caliber you are comfortable with & go forth. Just keep in mind that what ever you choose to get into or are forced to get into, you will be on the hook civily, so spray & pray or covering fire just isn't practical. Once you engage, the sooner the fight is over, the less threat there is to everyone around you. You may not miss many times, but the BG is likely to miss more & you will be held just as liable.:wow:


I agree, it is assuming those 5 rounds or however many hit, and I would go a step further and say it is assuming they hit a critical area. 5 more rounds into a bad guys arm or leg isn't going to make much of a difference.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect someone to make those 5 rounds count though at the typical self defense distance. If a person cannot do that, quite honestly they should not be carrying the gun for the purposes of self defense to start with.

When people assume the responsibility of carrying a firearm for self defense they also assume the responsibility of being proficient enough with that firearm to use it effectively.

KenB22
10-30-2010, 20:17
In suburban OH I normally carry my 27 and feel comfortable. Had to work in downtown Atlanta years ago where I had to get off the subway at 11:30pm in the heart of downtown to get to my hotel room. Carried my 19 once I saw multiple groups of 3,4,5 people hanging around on the sidewalks.

fredj338
10-30-2010, 23:47
I agree, it is assuming those 5 rounds or however many hit, and I would go a step further and say it is assuming they hit a critical area. 5 more rounds into a bad guys arm or leg isn't going to make much of a difference.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect someone to make those 5 rounds count though at the typical self defense distance. If a person cannot do that, quite honestly they should not be carrying the gun for the purposes of self defense to start with.

When people assume the responsibility of carrying a firearm for self defense they also assume the responsibility of being proficient enough with that firearm to use it effectively.

I've known LEO to miss @ arms length, seen guys miss in competition @ less than 7 steps, crap happens when you get in a hurry. We would all like to think we can deliver 5 COM hits in 2sec while we & the target are both moving, but it's not always that easy. The smart LEOs & ccw train & practice to be as good as we can be, because when the balloon goes up you'll be about half as good.:whistling:

Glolt20-91
10-31-2010, 00:27
I've known LEO to miss @ arms length, seen guys miss in competition @ less than 7 steps, crap happens when you get in a hurry. We would all like to think we can deliver 5 COM hits in 2sec while we & the target are both moving, but it's not always that easy. The smart LEOs & ccw train & practice to be as good as we can be, because when the balloon goes up you'll be about half as good.:whistling:

If you really want a rush, step toward a rattler as it's slithering and shoot behind its head, no snakeshot allowed. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

167
10-31-2010, 01:33
I've known LEO to miss @ arms length, seen guys miss in competition @ less than 7 steps, crap happens when you get in a hurry. We would all like to think we can deliver 5 COM hits in 2sec while we & the target are both moving, but it's not always that easy. The smart LEOs & ccw train & practice to be as good as we can be, because when the balloon goes up you'll be about half as good.:whistling:


Indeed it does. Unfortunately most people carrying guns for protection don't realize that and then train for it.

Alaskapopo
10-31-2010, 02:30
I would want a Glock 38 or 37 that is it.

I would not trust the others!

The only Glocks I trust are in 9mm due to weapon reliability. My personal carry choice is a single stack 1911 (Wilson Combat CQB) in 45 acp. I don't want the ammo for my pistol to become a collectors item in a few years.
Pat

1SGMP
10-31-2010, 04:45
Im paranoid. I ALWAYS expect 2 to 3 bad guys in a scenario. my carry is a G31 Loaded with buffalo bore 125gr ammo. If you think that a 9mm moving at 1150fps vs. the same moving at 1550fps are the same then you smoke too much crack. sorry to burst your bubble but the 357 sig with personal protection ammo isnt the 1200fps sleeper you think it is. i chrono'ed sellier and bellow 140gr rounds at 1420fps out of my gun. I want 15rds of serious *** kickin "lets blast thru your 1978 cadillac on 24's to kill you" type of guy, cause thats what we have to deal with here in st. louis. Im much more comfortable with my choice of caliber than with a 9mm in all aspects. In a serious handgun, 15rds is my minimum just in case.

BOOM Here is the start of the "CALIBER WAR"

Brucev
10-31-2010, 06:21
First and foremost- I'm not starting a caliber war here. This question is for 40 cal and 357 Sig shooters only. 9mm fans can keep it moving.

Where do you draw the line when giving up capacity for larger caliber? Example- G19 mag holds 15 rds and you only lose 2 rds when moving into a G23 or 32. However other pistols such as the Beretta 92 style hold 15 rds of 9mm but drop all the way down to 11 rds of 40 cal. (in the mags only)

If you are a hardcore 40 or 357 fan how many rds would you give up before saying screw it and switching to a hot 9 in your favorite pistol? (This is mostly hypothetical) Thanks for your thoughts!!!

Up to a point, more capacity is better. But in all reality, I don't think it is all that big a deal. For people who are planning to repeal some sort of assault staged by ninja zombie warriors, there may be a need for piles of rounds. But I think that is vastly overstated. There will always be people who need reassurance. They are the same sort who focus on the dark cloud that surrounds the silver lining. If you are trying to get the most firepower possible out of the smallest pistol possible, then the 9mm is a fine choice. With the right selection of ammo, it is highly effective. Like anything else, you have to decide what matters to you and then make your choices accordingly. I have a G-22 which for my purposes is just fine. Two more rounds would not hurt, if I were taking on a swarm of wild raving maniacal doped up extreme psycho wannabe on the evening news criminal attackers. But, I don't think those two rounds would be important. They'd just make holes where holes had already been made.

cole
10-31-2010, 19:05
8-9 rounds and my 1911 is empty while my Glock 17 is still half full. I CCW a 1911 most of the time (always) with a spare mag. But, for bumps in the night, if I grab a handgun, I grab my G17. Capacity makes the G17 my "SHTF", when-zombies-attack handgun.

fredj338
10-31-2010, 22:17
8-9 rounds and my 1911 is empty while my Glock 17 is still half full. I CCW a 1911 most of the time (always) with a spare mag. But, for bumps in the night, if I grab a handgun, I grab my G17. Capacity makes the G17 my "SHTF", when-zombies-attack handgun.
Same for me, but I get way more good hits w/ the 1911, so maybe I don't need so much ammo?:kidding:

Glolt20-91
11-01-2010, 00:20
8-9 rounds and my 1911 is empty while my Glock 17 is still half full. I CCW a 1911 most of the time (always) with a spare mag. But, for bumps in the night, if I grab a handgun, I grab my G17. Capacity makes the G17 my "SHTF", when-zombies-attack handgun.

Maybe you should also get a 200 round SAW magazine. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

glock20c10mm
11-01-2010, 00:46
Something to keep in mind when determining how much in gun ammunition is enough, is that handgun bullets generally are not good at what they are intended to do.

At the typical self defense range tenths of a second make a difference in how close to dying we get. We might be able to defend ourselves with a good couple shots to high center chest of the bad guy, but if we can shoot 5 more into the bad guy and end the threat a couple tenths faster would it not be wise to do so? Those couple tenths may be what keeps us alive.

There is no confidence to be had in the effectiveness of a handgun round, even a well placed one. Will it take 10 or 15 rounds to defend ouselves, probably not, but maybe it will and I would hate to end up on the wrong side of the statistic. That is why we carry guns anyway isn't it? I mean really, what are the odds we will ever need it, but we still carry it all the time.

I think that if we lived in a world where people made regular use of a handgun for self defense we wouldn't be having this discussion. Just my opinion though.

+1 :thumbsup:

Nice Post!

glock20c10mm
11-01-2010, 00:48
Im paranoid. I ALWAYS expect 2 to 3 bad guys in a scenario. my carry is a G31 Loaded with buffalo bore 125gr ammo. If you think that a 9mm moving at 1150fps vs. the same moving at 1550fps are the same then you smoke too much crack. sorry to burst your bubble but the 357 sig with personal protection ammo isnt the 1200fps sleeper you think it is. i chrono'ed sellier and bellow 140gr rounds at 1420fps out of my gun. I want 15rds of serious *** kickin "lets blast thru your 1978 cadillac on 24's to kill you" type of guy, cause thats what we have to deal with here in st. louis. Im much more comfortable with my choice of caliber than with a 9mm in all aspects. In a serious handgun, 15rds is my minimum just in case.

+1 :thumbsup:

Same here with the 10mm.


Good Shooting,
Craig

G31
11-01-2010, 12:28
I would not take a 4-round drop in equally-sized guns of different calibers for defense, mainly because you are not gaining any ballistic advantage going to the large caliber. In a cost/benefit analysis, you would be best off with more rounds, since effectiveness is the same. For 2 rounds, if it makes you feel better, I wouldn't worry, provided there are rounds in the double digits to begin with. (e.g. a 17-round 9mm and a 15-round .40 really isn't a big deal, but an 8-round 9mm vs. a 6-round .40 is too much capacity loss, IMO).

My opinion.

fredj338
11-01-2010, 13:22
I would not take a 4-round drop in equally-sized guns of different calibers for defense, mainly because you are not gaining any ballistic advantage going to the large caliber. In a cost/benefit analysis, you would be best off with more rounds, since effectiveness is the same. For 2 rounds, if it makes you feel better, I wouldn't worry, provided there are rounds in the double digits to begin with. (e.g. a 17-round 9mm and a 15-round .40 really isn't a big deal, but an 8-round 9mm vs. a 6-round .40 is too much capacity loss, IMO).

My opinion.
Not wanting to get into a caliber debate, but that statement means one has to believe that all handgun rounds are the same, & we do know that is not true. A 15shot 380 or 9 shot 45, Hmmm?:dunno: You are certainly likely to use all 15 of those 380s w/ iientical shot placement. Please don't responde w/ a CNS shot is a CNS shot, most gunfights do not end that way.

Alaskapopo
11-01-2010, 13:57
Not wanting to get into a caliber debate, but that statement means one has to believe that all handgun rounds are the same, & we do know that is not true. A 15shot 380 or 9 shot 45, Hmmm?:dunno: You are certainly likely to use all 15 of those 380s w/ iientical shot placement. Please don't responde w/ a CNS shot is a CNS shot, most gunfights do not end that way.

While not all handguns rounds are the same. The performance difference between a good 9mm round and anything else in 40sw,45 acp, 10mm, and 357 sig is highly debatable. Some believe the difference is huge and others do not and place a premium on shot placement.
Pat

fredj338
11-01-2010, 14:34
While not all handguns rounds are the same. The performance difference between a good 9mm round and anything else in 40sw,45 acp, 10mm, and 357 sig is highly debatable. Some believe the difference is huge and others do not and place a premium on shot placement.
Pat

True, but as you know, being a LEO, shot placement is dubious at best in a moving gunfight. So any hit counts & even if there is only a 10% increase in effectiveness, I want that. If I only land one or two hits & they do NOT hit vitals, I want the most damage possible within my & my gun/ammo capability for fatser blood loss.

Alaskapopo
11-01-2010, 15:00
True, but as you know, being a LEO, shot placement is dubious at best in a moving gunfight. So any hit counts & even if there is only a 10% increase in effectiveness, I want that. If I only land one or two hits & they do NOT hit vitals, I want the most damage possible within my & my gun/ammo capability for fatser blood loss.

While its hard to make good hits under stress its the only thing I know that will stop a fight. I have not had to shoot at people but I have had a few bears charge me. The worst one I was caught off guard my first few rounds did not connect solid and were just peripheral hits. The bear did not stop or turn directions (away from me) until my 4th shot and that did not stop it. it ran past me and the Trooper who was backing me up shot it twice and the last shot was a spinal shot which dropped it. We examined the bear later and it had several hits but only a few good ones.

Next instance I had time to place my shot the bear got hit and then crumpled about 10 feet later into a pile. That was a center chest shot.

Basically I learned the old adage you can not miss fast enough to win. You also need to have good hits. I also thank God for back up on the first shooting I mentioned. These were medium sized black bears. Basically when its on the line you have to do what ever it takes to ignore your fear and focus on good shots. The first incident could have been real bad for me. The bear charged at night and it was in an unlit area. Thank god I had a surefire light on my shotgun. It allowed me to light up the bear which helped my back up shoot it as well. Almost had to change my underware after that one. I was using 12 gauge slugs.

The point being if you have to end a fight you need to make good shots. Yes people make bad shots under stress and that is where training comes into play. Train has hard as you can and as realistically as you can. Carry what ever weapon you have the most skill and ability with and the most confidence in.

You also don't want to wait for blood loss to work. You want to get a CNS hit.
Pat

BOGE
11-01-2010, 18:07
...You also don't want to wait for blood loss to work. You want to get a CNS hit.
Pat

Was the bear shooting back? :supergrin:

Alaskapopo
11-01-2010, 18:13
Was the bear shooting back? :supergrin:

No but I was amazed at how fast they can go from just standing there to a full on charge. They have a mount full of edge weapons and 5 knives on each paw.
Pat

G31
11-01-2010, 18:32
fred, to prevent a caliber debate, I will not hit specifics. I will say Alaskapopo hit it dead on in his post, #66. The only fact about real life ballisitcs is a bullet makes a hole, and only what it hits directly is what is injured/destroyed. All the other stuff is not necessarily absent, but proven to be ineffective when it comes to incapacitation. This comes from my LE background and my medical one. I have been friends with people on the firearms training units for a few depts., various medical staff that deal directly with trauma, from nurses to surgeons, and everything between. I've also "walked the walk" in both fields, in addition to investing many years in school to learn how the body works. It is unanimous in the community that caliber means next to nothing in a fight, but shot placement means everything.(Talking pistols here.)

EDIT:

I do agree CNS, other than a good head shot, is extremely hard to accomplish, as the spine is the most difficult thing to hit from the front or side, barring no other shot.

G31
11-01-2010, 19:43
You know, I forgot to add one thing. I do not put everything into what I said earlier about capacity, as I have a few guns that are lower in capacity than their same-size counterparts, even if by quite a bit. Just a few I can think of off the top of my head are my P99 .40 (12+1 vs. 15 or 16+1 in the 9mm), my P220ST (8+1 vs. the 18 or20+1 in my P226 9mm), and my USP .45 (12+1 vs. 15 or 18+1 in the 9mm).

I was speaking for efficiency.

glock20c10mm
11-01-2010, 21:29
The only fact about real life ballisitcs is a bullet makes a hole, and only what it hits directly is what is injured/destroyed. All the other stuff is not necessarily absent, but proven to be ineffective when it comes to incapacitation.
What "other stuff"?

cole
11-01-2010, 21:35
One more consideration for me is that I can CCW a slim spare 1911 mag comfortably. Not so with fat Glock mags. So, I have my G26 (10/11+1), G17 (17+1), G30 (9/10+1) or 7+1+7 in my compact/officers 1911. So, for my 1911 I have more rounds over all except for the very large G17 AND I have a spare mag. Plus, being .45acp is a bonus.

ElectricZombie
11-01-2010, 22:08
Giving up 2 or so rounds seem acceptable to me. The gun needs to have a good size to capacity ratio regardless of caliber.

fredj338
11-01-2010, 22:35
It is unanimous in the community that caliber means next to nothing in a fight, but shot placement means everything.(Talking pistols here.)
Obviously to a point that is true, yet you do NOT see US LE carrying 32acp or 380auto regardless of mag cap. While I am comfortable w/ anything over 9mm, I would reach for the 45acp everytime if given a choice. Yes, it may not matter much, but if only 10%, I'll take that. While I have not been on the pointy end of the spear, I have killed enough large things to know when dealing w/ things that scratch or bite, you shoot the biggest caliber you can effectively.

BOGE
11-01-2010, 23:09
...I would reach for the 45acp everytime if given a choice...


I have a buddy who one day got pissed off at a housecat on his farm so he unlimbered his 1911 and sent a 230 gr. hardball dead nuts through it. The cat is alive today. He said he didn`t see it for a week or so after the shooting and that it was walking slowly, but survived.

So much for the adage ``they all fall to hardball``. :supergrin:

I believe shot placement is important, but it is not the be all end all for the most part. You need the right bullet. Of course, that is where most of us part ways more or less.

1SGMP
11-02-2010, 05:46
One more consideration for me is that I can CCW a slim spare 1911 mag comfortably. Not so with fat Glock mags. So, I have my G26 (10/11+1), G17 (17+1), G30 (9/10+1) or 7+1+7 in my compact/officers 1911. So, for my 1911 I have more rounds over all except for the very large G17 AND I have a spare mag. Plus, being .45acp is a bonus.
You are assuming no one carries a spare mag when they carry a glock. My math caculates different. My G 26 with the pierce +2 extension gives me a 12 mag with one in the chamber = 13 rounds ,plus a spare 12round Mag thats 25 rounds. seems to me a higher round count than your 7+1+7= 15. Plus,being a 9mm is a HUGH bonus

fredj338
11-02-2010, 09:47
I have a buddy who one day got pissed off at a housecat on his farm so he unlimbered his 1911 and sent a 230 gr. hardball dead nuts through it. The cat is alive today. He said he didn`t see it for a week or so after the shooting and that it was walking slowly, but survived.

So much for the adage ``they all fall to hardball``. :supergrin:

I believe shot placement is important, but it is not the be all end all for the most part. You need the right bullet. Of course, that is where most of us part ways more or less.
I know better than that from experience. I have often stated my dislike for ball ammo, any handgun caliber. It makes a puncture wound, smooth, easier to stop the bleeding & heals cleaner than a larger torn wound.
When I got my first 44mag, used to hunt big desert jacks with it stuffed w/ max 240grLSWC @ 1400fps. You would have to shoot some of those jacks 2 & 3 times w/ body shots. Yeah, I know, I just need more gun right? The immense power of the 44mag is wasted using solids on ultra thin skin game. Switch to a light wt JHP, the bunny becomes a jigsaw puzzle. Same would have happened to the cat w/ a 185grJHP @ 1000fps, or better still, 90grJHP in a 9mm going 1400fps.:dunno:

cole
11-02-2010, 15:55
One more consideration for me is that I can CCW a slim spare 1911 mag comfortably. Not so with fat Glock mags. So, I have my G26 (10/11+1), G17 (17+1), G30 (9/10+1) or 7+1+7 in my compact/officers 1911. So, for my 1911 I have more rounds over all except for the very large G17 AND I have a spare mag. Plus, being .45acp is a bonus.
You are assuming no one carries a spare mag when they carry a glock. My math caculates different. My G 26 with the pierce +2 extension gives me a 12 mag with one in the chamber = 13 rounds ,plus a spare 12round Mag thats 25 rounds. seems to me a higher round count than your 7+1+7= 15. Plus,being a 9mm is a HUGH bonus

Hmm... Umm... no. Read my post again and count the times I said "me", "I" and/or "my" (I added bold to help). And, let's just assume we both can count, or atleast have access to a calculator or a 1st grader to handle the math for us. 9mm as a "huge" bonus? I have to admit I've never thought of it that way. The things I learn on GT! :supergrin:

fredj338
11-02-2010, 18:14
Hmm... Umm... no. Read my post again and count the times I said "me", "I" and/or "my" (I added bold to help). And, let's just assume we both can count, or atleast have access to a calculator or a 1st grader to handle the math for us. 9mm as a "huge" bonus? I have to admit I've never thought of it that way. The things I learn on GT! :supergrin:

Recoil Cole, recoil, that & more rounds to miss with faster. Huge bonus!:whistling:

1SGMP
11-02-2010, 18:34
Hmm... Umm... no. Read my post again and count the times I said "me", "I" and/or "my" (I added bold to help). And, let's just assume we both can count, or atleast have access to a calculator or a 1st grader to handle the math for us. 9mm as a "huge" bonus? I have to admit I've never thought of it that way. The things I learn on GT! :supergrin:
OK Sacrasm noted ,I carry a spare mag with my 26 and STILL smoke you with ammo. get your calulator out Cole. 12+13=25. 7+1+7 = 15. tO MAKE it easier for you, with my 26 platform i have 25 rounds compared to your 15. Wait,,, sometimes i pack a G19 mag (15 rounds) Jesus Mary and Joseph that gives me a total of 28 rounds. Yes, a 9mm is a ,Hugh bonus for me at least.

Angry Fist
11-02-2010, 18:49
Y'all still need a drum to beat me... :supergrin:

1SGMP
11-03-2010, 05:39
Y'all still need a drum to beat me... :supergrin:
:tongueout::rofl::tongueout::rofl:

1SGMP
11-03-2010, 06:46
Recoil Cole, recoil, that & more rounds to miss with faster. Huge bonus!:whistling:
Hmm, I just got this, A sacrastic comment i would guess. More rounds for YOU to miss with? As I am pretty confident with my shooting skills/ability.

fredj338
11-03-2010, 09:53
Hmm, I just got this, A sacrastic comment i would guess. More rounds for YOU to miss with? As I am pretty confident with my shooting skills/ability.

Not saying YOU aren't, but my own experience watching others shoot under stress, spray & pray is the norm.:supergrin: When they are down to their last mag, then they focues & start pressing the trigger.:upeyes:

1SGMP
11-03-2010, 13:06
Not saying YOU aren't, but my own experience watching others shoot under stress, spray & pray is the norm.:supergrin: When they are down to their last mag, then they focues & start pressing the trigger.:upeyes:
Under Stress?? meaning Competiton shooting? or What?

So do you feel someone with lets say a single stack (1911) would fair better in a stressfull situation than someone with a double stack?? does a double stack give someone more confidence because he/she has more ammo. Can I or you NOT get good hits on a threat if I have a G19? as opposed to a 1911?

fredj338
11-03-2010, 13:23
Under Stress?? meaning Competiton shooting? or What?

So do you feel someone with lets say a single stack (1911) would fair better in a stressfull situation than someone with a double stack?? does a double stack give someone more confidence because he/she has more ammo. Can I or you NOT get good hits on a threat if I have a G19? as opposed to a 1911?

NOT AT ALL. What the high cap gun has done is make many, not all, but many shooters into spray & pray guys. It's not confidence, but convenience. I am not saying that some that shoot high caps can't shoot, but maany use the 15rds+ 2 reloads as an excuse to just pull the trigger to slide lock reload & repeat. If you haven't seen this in competition, then you haven't shot much in comps. Training clases too. If you study police shootings, the guys that can, do unload their entire mag or mags to get 1 or 2 hits.
Stop being so sensative. I am not saying you are a girlyman for using a 9mm, just my obs watching guys shoot them.:dunno: As one who does carry a 1911, the guy packing a 1911, knows his ammo supply is limited, he is less likely to have throw away shots, again, just my exp. I used to shoot IPSC, would finish the course in the same time as the Glock guys w/ my 1911 & use about 1/3-1/2 the ammo.:dunno:

G31
11-03-2010, 13:59
Obviously to a point that is true, yet you do NOT see US LE carrying 32acp or 380auto regardless of mag cap. While I am comfortable w/ anything over 9mm, I would reach for the 45acp everytime if given a choice. Yes, it may not matter much, but if only 10%, I'll take that. While I have not been on the pointy end of the spear, I have killed enough large things to know when dealing w/ things that scratch or bite, you shoot the biggest caliber you can effectively.

I like this post. I see nothing wrong with doing that, if it makes a difference to you. You acknowledged the fact that the difference between pistol rounds is minimal at best, and made a decision from there. It's honestly a breath of fresh air to see someone be objective. :cool:

And to that point you reference in the first sentence, you are correct. This is why the line is usually drawn at 9mm/.38, as these rounds will not deflect easily, and can punch through obstacles between you and what you're shooting most of the time. For a LE round, (and a CCW round at that) you should be considering barriers and obstacles to the flesh of the body (auto glass, doors, etc.).

I personally carry anything from 9mm up to .45 without feeling either undergunned or too-well equipped. I also take a 10mm into the woods. As long as I understand that I have to do my part when the time comes, it's all good.

1SGMP
11-03-2010, 14:53
NOT AT ALL. What the high cap gun has done is make many, not all, but many shooters into spray & pray guys. It's not confidence, but convenience. I am not saying that some that shoot high caps can't shoot, but maany use the 15rds+ 2 reloads as an excuse to just pull the trigger to slide lock reload & repeat. If you haven't seen this in competition, then you haven't shot much in comps. Training clases too. If you study police shootings, the guys that can, do unload their entire mag or mags to get 1 or 2 hits.
Stop being so sensative. I am not saying you are a girlyman for using a 9mm, just my obs watching guys shoot them.:dunno: As one who does carry a 1911, the guy packing a 1911, knows his ammo supply is limited, he is less likely to have throw away shots, again, just my exp. I used to shoot IPSC, would finish the course in the same time as the Glock guys w/ my 1911 & use about 1/3-1/2 the ammo.:dunno:
Ok,I'll try not to be so sensitive next time. I was simply looking for you to expain yourself. I have done a few competitions and I have sometime emptied my 15 rn 9mm and sometime not. So again Please clarify, So someone shooting a 1911 (single stack) is less likley to spray and pray than someone carrying a double stack. I say NO because when it hits the fan i dont think someone will have the mind set to sit there and count his./her rounds. Which is why I think a hi cap weapon is better. If it does come to the point of a firefight (god forbid) why not have as many rounds as possible, Incase the "spray and pray" factor comes into play.

BOGE
11-03-2010, 16:39
NOT AT ALL. What the high cap gun has done is make many, not all, but many shooters into spray & pray guys. It's not confidence, but convenience. I am not saying that some that shoot high caps can't shoot, but maany use the 15rds+ 2 reloads as an excuse to just pull the trigger to slide lock reload & repeat. If you haven't seen this in competition, then you haven't shot much in comps. Training clases too. If you study police shootings, the guys that can, do unload their entire mag or mags to get 1 or 2 hits.
Stop being so sensative. I am not saying you are a girlyman for using a 9mm, just my obs watching guys shoot them.:dunno: As one who does carry a 1911, the guy packing a 1911, knows his ammo supply is limited, he is less likely to have throw away shots, again, just my exp. I used to shoot IPSC, would finish the course in the same time as the Glock guys w/ my 1911 & use about 1/3-1/2 the ammo.:dunno:

Fred, I`m going to ask you ONE and ONE question only:

how many people have you actually seen with your own eyes dump a magazine in a real gunfight whether it be a 1911 or a 9mm high cap? I`m going to guess ZERO. In other words you are simply repeating the same old tired BS spewed forth by cantankerous old codgers at your local gun club who only shoot 1911's and have no idea what the hell they are talking about.

There are countless gunfight scenarios and none are like ``High Noon``. As an example, I`ve been attacked in Latin America two times in my life by large groups of assailants. Once by five men & the second it was by four men and one woman. There are no IPSC or IDPA drills that can prepare your mind for this. NONE. Anyone that says so is full of it. You either live through it or you don`t. Period.

1SGMP
11-03-2010, 16:49
Fred, I`m going to ask you ONE and ONE question only:

how many people have you actually seen with your own eyes dump a magazine in a real gunfight whether it be a 1911 or a 9mm high cap? I`m going to guess ZERO. In other words you are simply repeating the same old tired BS spewed forth by cantankerous old codgers at your local gun club who only shoot 1911's and have no idea what the hell they are talking about.

There are countless gunfight scenarios and none are like ``High Noon``. As an example, I`ve been attacked in Latin America two times in my life by large groups of assailants. Once by five men & the second it was by four men and one woman. There are no IPSC or IDPA drills that can prepare your mind for this. NONE. Anyone that says so is full of it. You either live through it or you don`t. Period.
FINALLY a sensible, articulate, and well thought simple response. Jesus H hopefully that will put an end to it. BUT i doubt Fred will let this dog sleep. Lets hear it fred.
1SG
Out

cole
11-03-2010, 18:37
FINALLY a sensible, articulate, and well thought simple response. Jesus H hopefully that will put an end to it. BUT i doubt Fred will let this dog sleep. Lets hear it fred.
1SG out

In.

GT Defintions:
1) "Sensible" = any opinion that agreess with your own.
2) "Articulate" = If criteria 1 is met, any way said opinion is expressed.
3) "Well thought" = If condition 1 is met, see condition 2.

I sure anyone can come up with scenarios that favor:
1) Capacity
2) 9mm
3) .45acp
4) Insert here...
But, that's what they are: scenarios. Some will be real experiences for the person, most not. However, all the scenarios are conditional, circumstancial, whatever. Having "real" experience in one (limited) scenario does not make one expert in all. Different scenarios may lead to a different outcome. Different experiences may lead to different opinions. We're all little snowflakes. Such is life.

I think most can agree:
1) Having gun > not
2) Shooting said gun well > not
3) Said gun being a service caliber > not
After this, it's all conditional, opinion, conjecture, etc. And, herein enters the opinion at issue here:
- Bigger said gun caliber the better
- More of said gun projectiles the better
Opinion on which is #4 and which is #5 will vary by scenarios, "real" and imagined.

I'll take my Glock 17 over my 1911. But, that G17 is way too big for me to comfortably CCW. I'll take my 1911 over my G26 for my reasons stated. That's me. I'm my own snowflake.

Out.

fredj338
11-03-2010, 19:05
Fred, I`m going to ask you ONE and ONE question only:

how many people have you actually seen with your own eyes dump a magazine in a real gunfight whether it be a 1911 or a 9mm high cap? I`m going to guess ZERO. In other words you are simply repeating the same old tired BS spewed forth by cantankerous old codgers at your local gun club who only shoot 1911's and have no idea what the hell they are talking about.

There are countless gunfight scenarios and none are like ``High Noon``. As an example, I`ve been attacked in Latin America two times in my life by large groups of assailants. Once by five men & the second it was by four men and one woman. There are no IPSC or IDPA drills that can prepare your mind for this. NONE. Anyone that says so is full of it. You either live through it or you don`t. Period.
Not personnaly, but there are countless factual reports of LEO empting their high caps into cars or at BG, etc. Pick up a paper & read the accounts. Do some online research, there are dozens. The NY Abadialo case; what was that, 4 guys firing 41 shots to hit an unarmed guy 4X @ point blank. No, I am not "repeating the same old tired BS". I have been to dozens of matches where the high cap guys blow thru their entire belt of 15rd mags to hit the same number of targets just as fast as the guys w/ the single stacks or even a few times guys shooting 6shot rev! No, it's not repeating BS, just what I have seen & done.
As to the fewer rounds, fewer misses, sure common sense says if I know I have 15+, I'll have throw away shots, if I have 9+, I better make my shots count, not toss em downrange & hope for a hit. Really, you 9mm guys are so sensative, makes me want to go buy a pink gun.:upeyes:
Sure, in your attack scenario, I would certainly want more than a 1911 & 2 mags, hell, I would have wanted more than a Glock & 4 mags. We are really not talking about Iraq or Afghanistan or some **** hole in SA, but the streets of the USA. Could it happen, sure, does it happen, not often if ever & you find yourself in that deep, you obvliously had some other issue besides what caliber or pistol choice.
I do believe though that if you can not do it in competition or training, you certainly won't do it on the street. So we train, carry what we like & makes us feel comfy, but I am not backing down from my statement; that many that carry, not all but many, a high cap w/ extra mags are going to toss off a lot more rounds to engage their targets. I'll look for the article about the LEO back east in a gunfight at a domestic dist & he fired all his mags from his G21 & got some hits in. When he got down to his last, he realized it was time to focus. He ended the fight w/ a called headshot. Why, because he was out of ammo, he was certainly capable before, but had his head in the game enough to know that was all he had left. I have & do carry a 9mm at times, I am limited to 10rds, so I have to reconcile myself to getting hits w/ what I have. For 10+1 or 8+1, I'll take the 8+1of my 1911 because I don't miss with it like I do my Glock. We all have to do what we feel works for us. If you feel you "need" 50rds to get thru your day, more power to you, but I would rpobably move from that location. Just remember, here, you have to account for any & all misses, LEO to a greater extent, does not.:whistling:
I`ve been attacked in Latin America two times in my life by large groups of assailants. Once by five men & the second it was by four men and one woman.
SO please elaborate on how you survived. I'm sure it would be educational for those of us that have never been under such a threat. Was it luck, skill or training or a bit of all three? SHould that ever happen to me, I am sure it will be all three regradless of what gun or caliber I have at the time.

unit1069
11-03-2010, 19:16
Four NYC police officers on the lookout for a violent suspect cornered Amadou Diallo in a doorway. When Diallo --- an immigrant whose language wasn't English --- reached for his wallet the officers thought he was reaching for a gun and fired at him a total of 41 times, striking him nineteen times.

If experienced police officers right on top of a suspect can't deliver any more than one out of two shots on target I hate to think how badly I'd do against one or more assailants in my face. I lean towards capacity although the need to deliver the first shot on target is unquestionably the right goal for any defender.

1SGMP
11-03-2010, 19:19
In.

GT Defintions:
1) "Sensible" = any opinion that agreess with your own.
2) "Articulate" = If criteria 1 is met, any way said opinion is expressed.
3) "Well thought" = If condition 1 is met, see condition 2.

I sure anyone can come up with scenarios that favor:
1) Capacity
2) 9mm
3) .45acp
4) Insert here...
But, that's what they are: scenarios. Some will be real experiences for the person, most not. However, all the scenarios are conditional, circumstancial, whatever. Having "real" experience in one (limited) scenario does not make one expert in all. Different scenarios may lead to a different outcome. Different experiences may lead to different opinions. We're all little snowflakes. Such is life.

I think most can agree:
1) Having gun > not
2) Shooting said gun well > not
3) Said gun being a service caliber > not
After this, it's all conditional, opinion, conjecture, etc. And, herein enters the opinion at issue here:
- Bigger said gun caliber the better
- More of said gun projectiles the better
Opinion on which is #4 and which is #5 will vary by scenarios, "real" and imagined.

I'll take my Glock 17 over my 1911. But, that G17 is way too big for me to comfortably CCW. I'll take my 1911 over my G26 for my reasons stated. That's me. I'm my own snowflake.

Out. Ok Snowflake
Ok, Now I get it, your from California right??? The left Coast? Jesus talk about being sensitive. So you clearly admit you would tak your G17 over your 1911, so when push comes to shove, you will go with the 9mm correct?? But it's to big to carry comfortably, then what about a G19?? what type 1911 do you ccw, Full size? officer Model? commanders Model?? I would guess the 19 is somewhere between the Officers and the Commander. correct?? Lighten up Fred

cole
11-03-2010, 20:11
Ok Snowflake
Ok, Now I get it, your from California right??? The left Coast? Jesus talk about being sensitive. So you clearly admit you would tak your G17 over your 1911, so when push comes to shove, you will go with the 9mm correct?? But it's to big to carry comfortably, then what about a G19?? what type 1911 do you ccw, Full size? officer Model? commanders Model?? I would guess the 19 is somewhere between the Officers and the Commander. correct?? Lighten up Fred

Ohh... dang... you caught me... I made the grave mistake in caliber banter of (trying to) actually staying on OP's topic. Read this thread's title line and, ideally, if possible, keep your "left" coast, "right" coast divisive, strawman tactics to a minimum if you can please.

So, sure, I'd take 17+1 rounds of 9mm over 7/8+1 rounds of .45acp. But, for CCW, I take 7+1+7 rounds of .45acp in my 1911 4" over my G17, G30 and G26 most days because Glock mags, for me, are almost like having a gun on both hips in terms of comfort. Bumps in the night, when I'd just grab the gun, as noted, I'll reach for the Glock 17.

Now, you have to be your own snowflake. :wavey:

1SGMP
11-03-2010, 20:19
Ohh... dang... you caught me... I made the grave mistake in caliber banter of (trying to) actually staying on OP's topic. Read this thread's title line and, ideally, if possible, keep your "left" coast, "right" coast divisive, strawman tactics to a minimum if you can please.

So, sure, I'd take 17+1 rounds of 9mm over 7/8+1 rounds of .45acp. But, for CCW, I take 7+1+7 rounds of .45acp in my 1911 4" over my G17, G30 and G26 most days because Glock mags, for me, are almost like having a gun on both hips in terms of comfort. Bumps in the night, when I'd just grab the gun, as noted, I'll reach for the Glock 17.

Now, you have to be your own snowflake. :wavey:
OK, I get get carried away witht he left coast comments. So, If push comes to shove, and it's time to dance, You will go for the G17 over the 1911 Correct???

NonPCnraRN
11-04-2010, 12:25
God, I must be old. I remember when I carried a J-frame and two 5 shot speed loaders. I graduated to a Star PD. The Star had 6 round mags with more powerful rounds (45 ACP) and was faster to reload than my J-frame. I carried 2 extra mags. Now I have a G27 and G23 to carry and think I need at least 1 extra mag. I think a lot of it is psychological. Then again times have changed with one having to possibly defend oneself against a gang of shooters not just a one on one robbery type situation. I think you should carry whatever makes you feel secure. I also have a SA Milspec and sometimes carry it with 2 mags. Although I carry the Milspec and it would probably handle most any situation but I still have a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that I should have one of the Glocks and 2 mags. Paranoid thinking vs a security blanket? Who knows? Again each person has to decide what he or she is going to carry. Hopefully none of us will have to find out the hard way. One can argue why one makes the choice they did but it doesn't make the other person's choice wrong. The rancor I read in some of these posts doesn't do anyone any good especially the person who originally posed the question with the expectation of some kind of civil rational answer.

fredj338
11-04-2010, 13:19
OK, I get get carried away witht he left coast comments. So, If push comes to shove, and it's time to dance, You will go for the G17 over the 1911 Correct???
Nope, not at all. My SHTF is a G178, because I will be limited to the amount oif ammo I can carry & 9mm would be plentiful. If push comes to shove for ccw, I still carry the 1911, why, because I am good with it, better than I am w/ the G17. Then again, I don't live on the mean streets of Kabul, where an M4 & 10-30rd mags would be the weapon of choice. We are talking CCW here in the USA to get you back on point. A 1911 w/ extra mag is mine, if you need a G17 & 4 mags, so be it.:dunno:
So how about this question; mag cap not withstanding, would YOU carry a 9+1 single stack 9mm or an 8+1 45? Left coast, right coast, doesn't matter. If that were your choice, would it be 9mm to gain an extra round or 45 for the bigger hole? So then if the 9mm isn't all about mag cap, what is it about? Let's see, low recoil & mag cap, kinda what I said earlier.
Out here, we get 10+1 MAX. Why anyone would choose a G17 or even G19 for daily ccw makes little sense to me, I can get 10rds of 357sig or 40 in the identical package, or I can go with something I shoot far better in an 8+1 package. No brainer to me, but maybe a bit more diff decision for those dedicated to the high cap mentality.

1SGMP
11-04-2010, 14:31
Nope, not at all. My SHTF is a G178, because I will be limited to the amount oif ammo I can carry & 9mm would be plentiful. If push comes to shove for ccw, I still carry the 1911, why, because I am good with it, better than I am w/ the G17. Then again, I don't live on the mean streets of Kabul, where an M4 & 10-30rd mags would be the weapon of choice. We are talking CCW here in the USA to get you back on point. A 1911 w/ extra mag is mine, if you need a G17 & 4 mags, so be it.:dunno:
So how about this question; mag cap not withstanding, would YOU carry a 9+1 single stack 9mm or an 8+1 45? Left coast, right coast, doesn't matter. If that were your choice, would it be 9mm to gain an extra round or 45 for the bigger hole? So then if the 9mm isn't all about mag cap, what is it about? Let's see, low recoil & mag cap, kinda what I said earlier.
Out here, we get 10+1 MAX. Why anyone would choose a G17 or even G19 for daily ccw makes little sense to me, I can get 10rds of 357sig or 40 in the identical package, or I can go with something I shoot far better in an 8+1 package. No brainer to me, but maybe a bit more diff decision for those dedicated to the high cap mentality.
Actually my question was directed to Cole. But I will entertain you for a bit. I would choose the 9mm because it does have the one extra round and that may be the difference between life or death. Plus i feel the 9mm is a better barrier penetrator. Plus if the S*** really hits the fan and I have to up and move the family. I am pretty sure I will find 9mm ammo ANYWHere IN THE WORLD. i cant say that with the 45acp.

glock20c10mm
11-07-2010, 02:39
...As one who does carry a 1911, the guy packing a 1911, knows his ammo supply is limited, he is less likely to have throw away shots...
Or you're simply stubborn, wanting to carry what you do for poor reasoning in direct relation to SD, only because you have an affection for what you carry.

Could it be you're letting emotion get in the way of sound reasoning? Yes, I know, without breaking the law you can't carry a platform that holds any more than 10 rounds in the mag. But 7, when you could be carrying 10? Even if you ever carry a spare mag, the difference is still 14 compared to 20 with you still being legal.

IMO, 1911s have become obsolete. Yea, you might shoot it better than any other platform you own, and maybe you're just dead set on the 45. Either way, you could choose a G30, still be shooting the 45, and have 10 round mag capacity, or more with a G21, and with a little practice, if you even need any, shoot it pretty darn well, not to mention plenty well enough for SD.

IMO, you're giving up round count for no good reason other than a "feel good" one. And hey, that's your perogative. Definately don't get me wrong here. Carry what you want. But to actually make any argument at all against higher round count amongst the balance of all other things important to carrying/choosing a good SD platform/cartridge combination is just plain wrong for anyone seriously wanting the best choice possible.


Good Shooting,
Craig


PS - Hey Fred :wavey: It's been a while. Hope I didn't go too hard on ya! You have a great day!

DocKWL
11-07-2010, 06:09
Not personnaly, but there are countless factual reports of LEO empting their high caps into cars or at BG, etc. Pick up a paper & read the accounts. Do some online research, there are dozens. The NY Abadialo case; what was that, 4 guys firing 41 shots to hit an unarmed guy 4X @ point blank. No, I am not "repeating the same old tired BS". I have been to dozens of matches where the high cap guys blow thru their entire belt of 15rd mags to hit the same number of targets just as fast as the guys w/ the single stacks or even a few times guys shooting 6shot rev! No, it's not repeating BS, just what I have seen & done.
As to the fewer rounds, fewer misses, sure common sense says if I know I have 15+, I'll have throw away shots, if I have 9+, I better make my shots count, not toss em downrange & hope for a hit. Really, you 9mm guys are so sensative, makes me want to go buy a pink gun.:upeyes:
Sure, in your attack scenario, I would certainly want more than a 1911 & 2 mags, hell, I would have wanted more than a Glock & 4 mags. We are really not talking about Iraq or Afghanistan or some **** hole in SA, but the streets of the USA. Could it happen, sure, does it happen, not often if ever & you find yourself in that deep, you obvliously had some other issue besides what caliber or pistol choice.
I do believe though that if you can not do it in competition or training, you certainly won't do it on the street. So we train, carry what we like & makes us feel comfy, but I am not backing down from my statement; that many that carry, not all but many, a high cap w/ extra mags are going to toss off a lot more rounds to engage their targets. I'll look for the article about the LEO back east in a gunfight at a domestic dist & he fired all his mags from his G21 & got some hits in. When he got down to his last, he realized it was time to focus. He ended the fight w/ a called headshot. Why, because he was out of ammo, he was certainly capable before, but had his head in the game enough to know that was all he had left. I have & do carry a 9mm at times, I am limited to 10rds, so I have to reconcile myself to getting hits w/ what I have. For 10+1 or 8+1, I'll take the 8+1of my 1911 because I don't miss with it like I do my Glock. We all have to do what we feel works for us. If you feel you "need" 50rds to get thru your day, more power to you, but I would rpobably move from that location. Just remember, here, you have to account for any & all misses, LEO to a greater extent, does not.:whistling:

SO please elaborate on how you survived. I'm sure it would be educational for those of us that have never been under such a threat. Was it luck, skill or training or a bit of all three? SHould that ever happen to me, I am sure it will be all three regradless of what gun or caliber I have at the time.

I'll look for the article about the LEO back east in a gunfight at a domestic dist & he fired all his mags from his G21 & got some hits in. When he got down to his last, he realized it was time to focus. He ended the fight w/ a called headshot.

A must read:

"The gun felt ominously light in Keith Borders' hand as he wiped the blood from his eyes and headed to the back of his patrol car. He knew the Glock 21 well from long hours on the range and was thoroughly familiar with its feel as the hefty .45s emptied from its magazine. It was nearly empty now, but the slide was still forward, letting him know that it still held at least one round.

Don Mettinger, the gentle family man now turned beast, was getting to his feet again, still firing the deadly shotgun and seemingly oblivious to the blood flowing freely from a torso riddled with holes. This was Borders' last magazine, and although he had a Chief's Special strapped to his ankle, he didn't trust it to stop this madman. He would have to make this shot count. He took a deep breath, and released it slowly as he stopped next to the right rear fender. Raising the Glock into firing position, he inhaled deeply again, let its sights settle squarely between Mettinger's eyes, and pressed the trigger."

LINK (http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific) to full article.

DocKWL
11-07-2010, 06:20
Or you're simply stubborn, wanting to carry what you do for poor reasoning in direct relation to SD, only because you have an affection for what you carry.

Could it be you're letting emotion get in the way of sound reasoning? Yes, I know, without breaking the law you can't carry a platform that holds any more than 10 rounds in the mag. But 7, when you could be carrying 10? Even if you ever carry a spare mag, the difference is still 14 compared to 20 with you still being legal.

IMO, 1911s have become obsolete. Yea, you might shoot it better than any other platform you own, and maybe you're just dead set on the 45. Either way, you could choose a G30, still be shooting the 45, and have 10 round mag capacity, or more with a G21, and with a little practice, if you even need any, shoot it pretty darn well, not to mention plenty well enough for SD.

IMO, you're giving up round count for no good reason other than a "feel good" one. And hey, that's your perogative. Definately don't get me wrong here. Carry what you want. But to actually make any argument at all against higher round count amongst the balance of all other things important to carrying/choosing a good SD platform/cartridge combination is just plain wrong for anyone seriously wanting the best choice possible.


Good Shooting,
Craig


PS - Hey Fred :wavey: It's been a while. Hope I didn't go too hard on ya! You have a great day!

You are not alone in your sentiment:

"The nice aspects of .45 ACP are that it makes large holes, can be very accurate, and offers good penetration of some intermediate barriers. Unfortunately, magazine capacity is less than ideal, .45 ACP is more expensive to practice with, and in general is harder to shoot well compared with 9 mm. .45 ACP makes the most sense in states with idiotic 10 rd magazine restrictions, in departments that give you lots of free .45 ACP ammo, or in situations where modern expanding ammunition is restricted due to asinine, illogical regulations."

LINK (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887) to full article

Berto
11-07-2010, 06:46
Capacity is not the end-all. Training, situational awareness and familiarity count for a lot more than the psychological comfort of knowing you have lots of "do overs".
Some of the best 'gunfighters' in LEO history made do against multiple assailants using a six shooter, not because they had the option of missing half the time.
Sure, all things being equal capacity wins, but things are rarely equal.

Ajon412
11-07-2010, 09:50
fred, to prevent a caliber debate, I will not hit specifics. I will say Alaskapopo hit it dead on in his post, #66. The only fact about real life ballisitcs is a bullet makes a hole, and only what it hits directly is what is injured/destroyed. All the other stuff is not necessarily absent, but proven to be ineffective when it comes to incapacitation. This comes from my LE background and my medical one. I have been friends with people on the firearms training units for a few depts., various medical staff that deal directly with trauma, from nurses to surgeons, and everything between. I've also "walked the walk" in both fields, in addition to investing many years in school to learn how the body works. It is unanimous in the community that caliber means next to nothing in a fight, but shot placement means everything.(Talking pistols here.)EDIT:

I do agree CNS, other than a good head shot, is extremely hard to accomplish, as the spine is the most difficult thing to hit from the front or side, barring no other shot.

I posted this response a while back on a few threads, but I think it's relevant here as well:

There was a recent NYPD shooting in the Bronx ( Aug 2010) where a perp was shot 23 times with 9mm Speer 124 +P GDHP rounds and survived. Conversely, a Brooklyn copper a few years back shot an killed a perp with (1) round to the chest (same ammo) after the perp attacked the officer with chair. I tend to think shot placement has more to do with it than caliber. Just my .02....

cole
11-07-2010, 11:13
... you have an affection for what you carry.

... But 7, when you could be carrying 10? ...

IMO, 1911s have become obsolete. Yea, you might shoot it better than any other platform you own ...

IMO, you're giving up round count for no good reason other than a "feel good" one. ... Carry what you want. But to actually make any argument at all against higher round count amongst the balance of all other things important to carrying/choosing a good SD platform/cartridge combination is just plain wrong for anyone seriously wanting the best choice possible.
...

Uhh... what? :dunno:While I agree fredj338 over-reached in the "high capacity = greater tendency to spray-n-pray", IMO the comments above are a non sequitur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)). "Feeling good" with what you carry is HUGE; we often call it confidence. "Shooting it better" than any other platform you own" is HUGE; we call this competence. There is a "balance" in a CCW. And, confidence, competence, capacity and comfort are all part of that equation. I believe few things in this world to be universally "plain wrong".

fredj338
11-07-2010, 11:22
Good Shooting,
Craig


PS - Hey Fred :wavey: It's been a while. Hope I didn't go too hard on ya! You have a great day!

No, I am not making an arugment against round count, only stating it's not the end all to be all for CCW. That is how the thread started. We are not talking SHTF, move the family, ammo availablility, yeah, my G17 is just for that, a G19 maybe a bit better because I can use a larger variety of mags. My argument is sound in my situation of a 10+1 max for CCW. I give up 4rds w/ a spare mag, will I need them, maybe, in 9mm, almost certainly, in the GLock platform, for me, definitely. Like I said, if you live in a **** hole & feel the need to pack 50rds, you need to evaluate other things. Your CCW is to get you out of trouble as quickly as possible. I fear some the carry such will have a false sense of security in their round count & stay in trouble they could have left or think they have all this ammo, why train or practice to actually use it. This opinion is not based on hearsay but what I actually have seen over the years in civ training as well as LE training & competition. The police reports showing how many rounds are fired to end a fight are countless. It's not because the BG don't go down but because the good guys miss quite a lot, more today it seems than in years past.
Yes Craig & am stubborn, no it doesn't bother me. Like the 1911, I am older guy, but I am 100% reliable in a fight.:supergrin: As Cole notes, what you are comfortable w/ & shoot well trumps round count to a certain degree. AS in 10+1 or 8+1.

fastbolt
11-07-2010, 11:35
"Feeling good" with what you carry is HUGE; we often call it confidence. "Shooting it better" than any other platform you own" is HUGE; we call this competence. There is a "balance" in a CCW. And, confidence, competence, capacity and comfort are all part of that equation. I believe few things in this world to be universally "plain wrong".


I saw this thread had popped back up on my list and decided to look at it. Cole's posting came up.

I tend to agree with the whole confidence, competence & balanced equation comments.

Naturally, confidence needs to be justified, and not just something which makes the person "feel good" about themselves and their choice. This is where self realization regarding competence comes into things. ;)

Balanced? This is where the whole thing is decided by the individual, based upon his/her knowledge, training, skillsets, experience and perceived needs.

We've pretty much seen that the issue of "capacity" is approached and considered by folks from different perspectives, experience and desires. I suppose that satisfies the OP's stated intention to some degree of having folks "think" about capacity. ;)

BTW, I don't consider the 1911 to be obsolete. Neither do I consider it a good choice for a neophyte, though. In the hands of a skilled and experienced user the platform is arguably still viable as a defensive handgun. I don't consider the 7/8+1 capacity of the single column 1911 to be a handicap ... although I didn't consider 8+1 & 7+1 capacity to be a problem when I carried a couple of issued TDA .45's before my retirement, either. ;)

I may not carry my 1911's as often anymore, but I still give them range time to keep the skills from rusting away and I still help some special enforcement folks in using and maintaining theirs upon occasion.

glock20c10mm
11-07-2010, 11:48
...Some of the best 'gunfighters' in LEO history made do against multiple assailants using a six shooter,...
Yea, and plenty didn't either. And what were the multiple assailants carrying, hi cap 9s? :rofl:

Guess I have to go pick up a big bore revolver now...:faint:

glock20c10mm
11-07-2010, 12:04
Uhh... what? :dunno:While I agree fredj338 over-reached in the "high capacity = greater tendency to spray-n-pray", IMO the comments above are a non resequitur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)). "Feeling good" with what you carry is HUGE; we often call it confidence. "Shooting it better" than any other platform you own" is HUGE; we call this competence. There is a "balance" in a CCW. And, confidence, competence, capacity and comfort are all part of that equation. I believe few things in this world to be universally "plain wrong".
While I agree overall, I'm not fully with you on the "Shooting it better" than any other platform you own" is HUGE; we call this competence." part, or at least to the extent you suggest in your punctuality. I agree, one should have a reasonable amount of confidence in the platform they choose. The key word here is reasonable, as to not outweigh other important factors.

A corvette is a better road handling machine than an SUV, therefore instilling more confidence in one's driving ability, but it doesn't mean the SUV isn't the better choice when a few kids and dog are involved, while still handling perfectly fine for the task at hand.


Craig

glock20c10mm
11-07-2010, 12:45
No, I am not making an arugment against round count, only stating it's not the end all to be all for CCW. That is how the thread started. We are not talking SHTF, move the family, ammo availablility, yeah, my G17 is just for that, a G19 maybe a bit better because I can use a larger variety of mags. My argument is sound in my situation of a 10+1 max for CCW. I give up 4rds w/ a spare mag, will I need them, maybe, in 9mm, almost certainly, in the GLock platform, for me, definitely. Like I said, if you live in a **** hole & feel the need to pack 50rds, you need to evaluate other things. Your CCW is to get you out of trouble as quickly as possible. I fear some the carry such will have a false sense of security in their round count & stay in trouble they could have left or think they have all this ammo, why train or practice to actually use it. This opinion is not based on hearsay but what I actually have seen over the years in civ training as well as LE training & competition. The police reports showing how many rounds are fired to end a fight are countless. It's not because the BG don't go down but because the good guys miss quite a lot, more today it seems than in years past.
Yes Craig & am stubborn, no it doesn't bother me. Like the 1911, I am older guy, but I am 100% reliable in a fight.:supergrin: As Cole notes, what you are comfortable w/ & shoot well trumps round count to a certain degree. AS in 10+1 or 8+1.
I don't believe higher round count should be classified at a false sense of security in the big picture. It may well be for some folks out there, and by the same token there are some folks out there that are going to choose to carry who will practically never practice with their carry piece. But that's really beside the point of higher round count in general.

We can all choose whatever we want to carry. Heck, there's probably someone out there regularily packing a sling shot in his back pocket (or maybe IWB :rofl: ) with some marbles or stones in his front pocket (maybe 7, or maybe 10, :dunno: ), and maybe it is all he can afford to carry. Fine.

So again, the point is, carry what you want. But not under the presumption you're doing it for all the best reasons as a whole in specific light of SD, when you're not. If you choose not to carry something like a G30 that does give YOU 11 rounds w/o a spare mag, and simply refuse to shoot it as to never be competent with it, then that's your perogative, just like your perfectly fine choice of carrying a 1911 for yourself, and yourself alone, by your own personal stubborn judgement.

Don't think I always make the best decision for the task at hand either. Sometimes emotion, for less than stellar reasoning, takes over. It's part of human nature I guess. There was a time when I thought all I wanted in a hunting rifle was practically a 12 pound sniper set up. Now, a nice 7 pound scoped set up fits the bill just fine for me, and I've never looked back.

Emotion got in the way of sound judgement, and now I've seen the light. Not saying we ever have to choose to walk the path of the light, but it's not to suggest we don't always make the best decisions based on the best reasoning either. No big deal, it's partly what makes us an individual, as opposed to a clone of the other guy next to us.

Feel more than good about your own personal decision(s). But at the end of the day, settling for less than 10 + 1 round capacity these days should only be because a mini pistol (LCP, PM9, P380,...) is all one can get away with for a specific given carry scenario, IF one really cares about all the most important aspects of a platform/cartridge combo for SD.

Carry a single shot if you want, I'm just saying.


Good Shooting,
Craig

Glockbuster
11-07-2010, 13:36
I have to agree with Fred in almost 100% of what he's said throughout this thread.

Without a doubt in my mind, a SD situation has to end quickly and effectively. If it cannot be, fleeing might be a better option. I would consider 8 rounds, fired concientiously minding your surroundings, to be sufficient in putting down a threat or two. If you cannot get a clear shot then it is probably best not to shoot. If a small spray and pray will aid your flight effectively, you might get yourself in bigger trouble than you might imagine.

What it comes down to in CCW is that IF you get to use your weapon at all, things will happen mighty quickly. Shooting might not be the best option either.

cole
11-07-2010, 14:32
While I agree overall, I'm not fully with you on the "Shooting it better" than any other platform you own" is HUGE; we call this competence." part, or at least to the extent you suggest in your punctuality. I agree, one should have a reasonable amount of confidence in the platform they choose. The key word here is reasonable, as to not outweigh other important factors.
...

For a CCW, I think we may simply disagree on ranking, weighting and priority. For me it's the "5 Cs":
1) Competence - YOU shoot the gun well (for me: 1911 > Glock)
2) Confidence - YOU trust the gun AND yourself with the gun (for me: 1911 = Glock 17)
3) Comfort - If YOU find carrying the CCW uncomfortable you'll eventually end up with something else (e.g. for me: G30)
4) Caliber - The heavier the projectile the better IMO (e.g. .45acp > 9mm)
5) Capacity - Do YOU feel the gun has enough little warriors to meet YOUR imagined applications

All but #1 is subjective to varying degrees and we can all imagine scenarios that favors caliber or capacity.

My "SHTF" (and HD) handgun is my Glock 17 no doubt (because of #1, #2 and #5). However, I don't CCW my G17 because it's too big for me (see #3). For me, currently and for some time, concerning CCW, it's: 1911 4" > G26 > G30 > G17.

fredj338
11-07-2010, 16:57
For a CCW, I think we may simply disagree on ranking, weighting and priority. For me it's the "5 Cs":
1) Competence - YOU shoot the gun well (for me: 1911 > Glock)
2) Confidence - YOU trust the gun AND yourself with the gun (for me: 1911 = Glock 17)
3) Comfort - If YOU find carrying the CCW uncomfortable you'll eventually end up with something else (e.g. for me: G30)
4) Caliber - The heavier the projectile the better IMO (e.g. .45acp > 9mm)
5) Capacity - Do YOU feel the gun has enough little warriors to meet YOUR imagined applications

All but #1 is subjective to varying degrees and we can all imagine scenarios that favors caliber or capacity.

My "SHTF" (and HD) handgun is my Glock 17 no doubt (because of #1, #2 and #5). However, I don't CCW my G17 because it's too big for me (see #3). For me, currently and for some time, concerning CCW, it's: 1911 4" > G26 > G30 > G17.
I like that COle, should be your sig line.
I don't believe higher round count should be classified at a false sense of security in the big picture. It may well be for some folks out there,
I agree, that's why some is underlned in my reply. I would have said most, as that is how I feel, but I know everyone carrying a high cap 9mm would take offenses, So it's some & again, watch people shoot under stress, if they have extra rounds, they always use them. When they get to the last mag, they actually buckle down & start to shoot.
Maybe much of this high cap thing comes from current military returning from the sand box. Yeah, if I walked the streets of Kabul, I would have high cap everything. Then again, you are in Indian country surrounded by, well, Indians. So that fight is gonna be diff than a street or parking lot fight here. I would & do bet my life on the fact that when the first guy goes down hard, any other BG is not staying in the fight. After all, that is why he brought help, because he figured he wasn't good enough to get it done on his own. Also unlike Kabul, your missed shots count here. So firing to cover & other nifty mil type tactics don't do well in court here. I know carrying 17rds total, I have to be better & have to be smarter & train accordingly. Unless I meet a ninja assasin or am attacked by a zombie squad, I am confident in my choice to get ME through the situation. Diff scenarios require diff gear & tactics, but for EDC, I am comfortable w/ my choice, old school or not. I do know my limitations & can live within them.

Angry Fist
11-07-2010, 17:02
Capacity is not the end-all. Training, situational awareness and familiarity count for a lot more than the psychological comfort of knowing you have lots of "do overs".
Some of the best 'gunfighters' in LEO history made do against multiple assailants using a six shooter, not because they had the option of missing half the time.
Sure, all things being equal capacity wins, but things are rarely equal.
Good post, Berto.... :wavey:

The rest of y'all, I ain't never been in a gunfight, and don't plan on it. Prepare, maybe. I can only train so much, and can only be as good as a situation I hope never happens determines. Carrying extra ammo may suck for some people, not make much sense to others, but what if I flipped out on you? Do you wanna go up against some crazed, nothing-to-lose whackjob with 36 rounds or more ICBM's with your 7+1 or whatever? The bad guy calls many of the shots, and you better be ready. In this hypothetical situation, I am the bad guy, and hell or high water, I am gunna kill your ass by any means necessary. Gangbangers and other violent derelicts (not me) are all not stupid asses that don't know what magazine or ammo to buy, and are perfectly capable of carrying a reload or a high capacity weapon.

In the end, it's still about 2 things (most of the time) Personal friggin' preference, and shot placement. Have a good one.... :cool:

Berto
11-07-2010, 21:24
Yea, and plenty didn't either. And what were the multiple assailants carrying, hi cap 9s? :rofl:

Guess I have to go pick up a big bore revolver now...:faint:

Just sayin...:whistling:

If you think capacity will make you perform better, go with it.
I'll stick with what works for me, it's not a real intellectual challenge really.

fredj338
11-07-2010, 22:34
Just sayin...:whistling:

If you think capacity will make you perform better, go with it.
I'll stick with what works for me, it's not a real intellectual challenge really.
Or this, not my choice, but?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,443822,00.html
This guy was carryin a G22, but managed to stop two armed robbers w/ less than a mag. Hmm, hits really do count.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/09/28/1723694/2-men-shot-dead-in-robbery.html
Are lots of rounds better than fewer, you bet, necessary, you'll never know until you get into the ****. Just a thought though, if you can't do it in an IDPA style match or training, you are not likely to come through when it's for real. So what ever you do carry, practice & train with it. Misses are unexceptable but will happen. How much you train & luck will determine the outcome. Your gear is a smalerl part of that equasion.

mboylan
11-08-2010, 18:51
If you can't end the fight in 6 rounds or less, you need a rifle.

Alaskapopo
11-08-2010, 19:05
If you can't end the fight in 6 rounds or less, you need a rifle.

Sorry but that is BS. Yes if your in a gunfight with a pistol you would always be better off with a rifle. However the pistol is carried when we are not expecting a fight and end up in one due to bad luck. In that case 6 rounds may not be enough in fact I would not count on that being enough ever.
Pat

1SGMP
11-08-2010, 21:27
Or this, not my choice, but?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,443822,00.html
This guy was carryin a G22, but managed to stop two armed robbers w/ less than a mag. Hmm, hits really do count.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/09/28/1723694/2-men-shot-dead-in-robbery.html
Are lots of rounds better than fewer, you bet, necessary, you'll never know until you get into the ****. Just a thought though, if you can't do it in an IDPA style match or training, you are not likely to come through when it's for real. So what ever you do carry, practice & train with it. Misses are unexceptable but will happen. How much you train & luck will determine the outcome. Your gear is a smalerl part of that equasion.
I disagree with the IDPA portion of your comment Fred. Please dont compare IDPA to a real gunfight, real gunfights have NO buzzer to start the fight. I feel that IDPA is not the best way to train for a gunfight The real word has NO buzzer to start the fight. It is what it is, and it happens as it happens. IDPA has it's place NO doubt but to compare it to the real thing is a mistake and could be a costly one.

fredj338
11-08-2010, 23:30
I disagree with the IDPA portion of your comment Fred. Please dont compare IDPA to a real gunfight, real gunfights have NO buzzer to start the fight. I feel that IDPA is not the best way to train for a gunfight The real word has NO buzzer to start the fight. It is what it is, and it happens as it happens. IDPA has it's place NO doubt but to compare it to the real thing is a mistake and could be a costly one.
It's not a comparison, just an observation. If the "Stress" of an IDPA or IPSC match causes you to fail, you certainly won't do better when bullets are flying (had an LEO @ a match once imply that somehow he would shoot better w/ bullets flying???). It was not my intent to say IDPA prepares you for a gunfight. Then again, IDPA shooters are out shooting under some stress level, manipulzting their pistols, from concealed presentation, etc. Not many LEO do that, maybe it's why their hit ratio is so low, many don't train or even practice. Yes, I know this first hand, having shot alongside & trained w/ a few.
Yes if your in a gunfight with a pistol you would always be better off with a rifle. However the pistol is carried when we are not expecting a fight and end up in one due to bad luck. In that case 6 rounds may not be enough in fact I would not count on that being enough ever.
I agree, but many, many civ gunfights or repelling an attack, go less than that. I think that might be what he was trying to say. My dad was LEO, he used to give me the heebees carrying a 5shot snub, no reload or BUG of duty. I always worried he would get jumped by some dirtbag(s) he put away. He was a tough old salt though, lived to be 85.

Alaskapopo
11-08-2010, 23:34
It's not a comparison, just an observation. If the "Stress" of an IDPA or IPSC match causes you to fail, you certainly won't do better when bullets are flying. It was not my intent to say IDPA prepares you for a gunfight. Then again, IDPA shooters are out shooting under some stress level. Not many LEO do that, maybe it's why their hit ratio is so low, many don't train or even practice. Yes, I know this first hand, having shot alongside & trained a couple.

While I love shooting USPSA and IDPA its not training. As for stress the training I have received as a LEO was way more stressful than any match I have attended. Having instructors scream at you while they pop blanks off near you does add stress. Or when you do force on force training. Way more stress than a match. Also not all leo agencies are the same on their trainings standards. Some train a lot some hardly train at all. You can't lump everyone together.
Pat

Glockbuster
11-09-2010, 06:08
We should invent a training exercise that involves an element of surprise. How does one train for that ? I bet most of the time we train in whatever mode we are somehow expecting action momentarily. No one I know is always in red alert while in CCW. An attack comes unexpectedly and suddenly when we are distracted with daily chores, that is just an honest citizen's nature. Far fetched I know.

1SGMP
11-09-2010, 06:25
It's not a comparison, just an observation. If the "Stress" of an IDPA or IPSC match causes you to fail, you certainly won't do better when bullets are flying (had an LEO @ a match once imply that somehow he would shoot better w/ bullets flying???). It was not my intent to say IDPA prepares you for a gunfight. Then again, IDPA shooters are out shooting under some stress level, manipulzting their pistols, from concealed presentation, etc. Not many LEO do that, maybe it's why their hit ratio is so low, many don't train or even practice. Yes, I know this first hand, having shot alongside & trained w/ a few.

I agree, but many, many civ gunfights or repelling an attack, go less than that. I think that might be what he was trying to say. My dad was LEO, he used to give me the heebees carrying a 5shot snub, no reload or BUG of duty. I always worried he would get jumped by some dirtbag(s) he put away. He was a tough old salt though, lived to be 85.
I would say that a LEO in a real life shooting had a little more stress than beating the stress of a clock at an IPSC match. A LEO is either fighting for his/her life or the life of another officer. Or for that matter a perfect stranger wheather it be an adult or child. That I think is MORE stress than, lets say the hot weather at an IPSC match or trying to beat the clock. Do IPSC matches run at night? or under lowlight? with strobes or sirens. maybe innocent civilians screaming in the background? or are you wounded or totally out of breath while shooting>>>>>>> I dont think so,
and YES i have shot a few matches, It's not that difficult

war vet
11-09-2010, 08:55
Shot placement, I train so it's not an issue.

Bullet technology has advanced. 9 mm's work.

Capacity. I switched over to all 9 mm's because of the capacity.
All my 9 mm's are glocks. My preference.

fredj338
11-09-2010, 14:10
We should invent a training exercise that involves an element of surprise. How does one train for that ? I bet most of the time we train in whatever mode we are somehow expecting action momentarily. No one I know is always in red alert while in CCW. An attack comes unexpectedly and suddenly when we are distracted with daily chores, that is just an honest citizen's nature. Far fetched I know.
That's what FOF training is about.
Some train a lot some hardly train at all. You can't lump everyone together.
You are correct, a lot of diff stds of training for LEA across the country. I am making a generalization, & if you don't fit into that, good for you & your dept, but you also have to be honest, how many of your fellow LEO do you want BEHIND you when the shooting starts?
AGAIN 1SGM, you are just completely missing the point. First, not all LEO get involved in gunfights, very few infact. So exactly what "experience" are they getting if they don't train or compete in some form of def shooting? That's right ZERO.:upeyes: Yes, some IDPA matches are shot in the dark, some training takes place in the dark. If the LEO does none of these things, his experience again is ZERO. So w/o ANY experience, how does anyone, including LEO, have any idea what he can do under some form of stress?
AGAIN, I am not saying that competition is equal to a gunfight, but it is miles ahead of doing NO training & NO defensive shooting under some stress. While you don't find competition stressfull, many newer shooters, including LEO, do. AGAIN, shooting IDPA or sim does NOT mean you are going to be able to perform well in a gunfight, I can assure you if the small stress of a match freaks you out, certainly when bullets are flying, you will fail & likely fail badly. It's why good LEA run realistic qualifications monthly, not some 60shot std course bi annually. It's why military train repetatively & spec ops & SWAT do the same only more frequently, because shooting under stress, any stress is something that has to be done to maintain skill. If that were not true, it just wouldn't be done by ALL of the best shooter regardless of discipline or profession.:dunno:

CanyonMan
11-09-2010, 15:26
I posted this over on Fred's "Poop hit the fan thread," but it seemed 'appropriate' here as well I guess, and I was bored. :supergrin:


I guess I'll just stick with this ! I can rapid fire (if need be), 7 rounds through it and drop the mag and reload 6 more and rap them off fast enough. Although this "Ain't" about speed imo. But still, that's 13 rounds of 230gr. I have always figured that for plenty enough. And for me , it always has been :fred:


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/0810000942a.jpg

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/0822000933a.jpg

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/pics075.jpg


Think this thread is called why sacrifice caliber for capacity ?


I don't. ;)



Stay safe guys.





CanyonMan

1SGMP
11-09-2010, 18:32
That's what FOF training is about.

You are correct, a lot of diff stds of training for LEA across the country. I am making a generalization, & if you don't fit into that, good for you & your dept, but you also have to be honest, how many of your fellow LEO do you want BEHIND you when the shooting starts?
AGAIN 1SGM, you are just completely missing the point. First, not all LEO get involved in gunfights, very few infact. So exactly what "experience" are they getting if they don't train or compete in some form of def shooting? That's right ZERO.:upeyes: Yes, some IDPA matches are shot in the dark, some training takes place in the dark. If the LEO does none of these things, his experience again is ZERO. So w/o ANY experience, how does anyone, including LEO, have any idea what he can do under some form of stress?
AGAIN, I am not saying that competition is equal to a gunfight, but it is miles ahead of doing NO training & NO defensive shooting under some stress. While you don't find competition stressfull, many newer shooters, including LEO, do. AGAIN, shooting IDPA or sim does NOT mean you are going to be able to perform well in a gunfight, I can assure you if the small stress of a match freaks you out, certainly when bullets are flying, you will fail & likely fail badly. It's why good LEA run realistic qualifications monthly, not some 60shot std course bi annually. It's why military train repetatively & spec ops & SWAT do the same only more frequently, because shooting under stress, any stress is something that has to be done to maintain skill. If that were not true, it just wouldn't be done by ALL of the best shooter regardless of discipline or profession.:dunno:
I Have the point, I dont agree but I do have it. it's Just that in most of your post's #'s 84,86,116,120 and 125. You ALWAYS mention IPSC and IDPA and reference it to real life shootings. I disagree, I DO AGREE that IPSC and IDPA have their place (I DO AGREE) but it's not the end all to training

Alaskapopo
11-09-2010, 18:36
That's what FOF training is about.

You are correct, a lot of diff stds of training for LEA across the country. I am making a generalization, & if you don't fit into that, good for you & your dept, but you also have to be honest, how many of your fellow LEO do you want BEHIND you when the shooting starts?
AGAIN 1SGM, you are just completely missing the point. First, not all LEO get involved in gunfights, very few infact. So exactly what "experience" are they getting if they don't train or compete in some form of def shooting? That's right ZERO.:upeyes: Yes, some IDPA matches are shot in the dark, some training takes place in the dark. If the LEO does none of these things, his experience again is ZERO. So w/o ANY experience, how does anyone, including LEO, have any idea what he can do under some form of stress?
AGAIN, I am not saying that competition is equal to a gunfight, but it is miles ahead of doing NO training & NO defensive shooting under some stress. While you don't find competition stressfull, many newer shooters, including LEO, do. AGAIN, shooting IDPA or sim does NOT mean you are going to be able to perform well in a gunfight, I can assure you if the small stress of a match freaks you out, certainly when bullets are flying, you will fail & likely fail badly. It's why good LEA run realistic qualifications monthly, not some 60shot std course bi annually. It's why military train repetatively & spec ops & SWAT do the same only more frequently, because shooting under stress, any stress is something that has to be done to maintain skill. If that were not true, it just wouldn't be done by ALL of the best shooter regardless of discipline or profession.:dunno:

In a real situation I trust LEO's more than I would those I shoot competition with. Not because of their skill with a firearm but because I know how they handle real life stress. Its one thing to shoot well when nothing is shooting back and quite another to face down a threat. Nothing against my buddies who competition shoot. But to me they are unknown quantities. I don't know how they would react to a real threat. I do however know how my guys will react from past experience.

I agree that competition is great. It has made me a better shooter. I think you need both training and then competition to test the skills you gained in training. Both play a role. I would not give up either one.
Pat

cowboy1964
11-09-2010, 19:54
Shot placement, I train so it's not an issue

Hopefully A) your target will stand perfectly still and B) you won't have any shakes whatsoever.

fredj338
11-09-2010, 19:55
In a real situation I trust LEO's more than I would those I shoot competition with. Not because of their skill with a firearm but because I know how they handle real life stress. Its one thing to shoot well when nothing is shooting back and quite another to face down a threat. Nothing against my buddies who competition shoot. But to me they are unknown quantities. I don't know how they would react to a real threat. I do however know how my guys will react from past experience.

I agree that competition is great. It has made me a better shooter. I think you need both training and then competition to test the skills you gained in training. Both play a role. I would not give up either one.
Pat
Reason I ask that, a LEO friend of mine was range master @ one of the local PD. He was a competative shooter, ameture gunsmith. He said less than 10% of the officers at his dept he felt comfortable with if they were behind him in a shooting situation. Why, because they never trained. Another friend of mine wanted to shoot for the pistol title at his dept. Of the 175 swron officers, only 15 could meet the reasonable min score to comptete. Of those 15, 14 were SWAT, my friend was 15th. My point again, & sorry ISGM, you still missed it, competition, familiarization w/ your carry gun, can only help in a violent, fast moving fight. I never said it prepares you for one or means you'll win one. but lack of usefull shooting under some stress can only leave you in the marginal catagory. Will it mean you are going to perform well, not necessarily, but again, if you shoot like crap in competition, I doubt you shoot better when the bullets fly.
Maybe that's why the high cap 9mm is so popular.:dunno: Maybe, maybe not. It's not about your personality, or your coolness under fire or whatever, but are you good, great or marginal w/ the gun you carry? How will you know? I think a gunfight is a hell of a time to figure it out. BTW, this does NOT apply to the gamers in IDPA either. The guys that are modifying their guns & loads to win the match are kidding themselves a bit IMO. I shoot full factory equiv loads, because it is my serious practice time. Not for tactics, but for handling my pistol under some stress, shooting accurately, quickly & thinking in some tactical fashion (movement, cover, reloads, etc). No I don't "win" a lot, but I don't miss a lot either. It is how I choose to go, & does make me confident w/ my gun/ammo choice.:wavey:

cowboy1964
11-09-2010, 20:19
I am pretty sure I will find 9mm ammo ANYWHere IN THE WORLD. i cant say that with the 45acp.

I could care less if 45 ACP isn't easy to find in Mongolia or Egypt. Which I don't even know is the case, BTW.

I've never seen 9mm do better at barriers than any of the other major calibers. It may be ok but it's not superior.

cowboy1964
11-09-2010, 20:23
This whole thread is laughable. If anyone seriously feels a 16 round 9mm or an 8 round 45 is inadequate they really need a reality check.

Alaskapopo
11-09-2010, 20:50
Reason I ask that, a LEO friend of mine was range master @ one of the local PD. He was a competative shooter, ameture gunsmith. He said less than 10% of the officers at his dept he felt comfortable with if they were behind him in a shooting situation. Why, because they never trained. Another friend of mine wanted to shoot for the pistol title at his dept. Of the 175 swron officers, only 15 could meet the reasonable min score to comptete. Of those 15, 14 were SWAT, my friend was 15th. My point again, & sorry ISGM, you still missed it, competition, familiarization w/ your carry gun, can only help in a violent, fast moving fight. I never said it prepares you for one or means you'll win one. but lack of usefull shooting under some stress can only leave you in the marginal catagory. Will it mean you are going to perform well, not necessarily, but again, if you shoot like crap in competition, I doubt you shoot better when the bullets fly.
Maybe that's why the high cap 9mm is so popular.:dunno: Maybe, maybe not. It's not about your personality, or your coolness under fire or whatever, but are you good, great or marginal w/ the gun you carry? How will you know? I think a gunfight is a hell of a time to figure it out. BTW, this does NOT apply to the gamers in IDPA either. The guys that are modifying their guns & loads to win the match are kidding themselves a bit IMO. I shoot full factory equiv loads, because it is my serious practice time. Not for tactics, but for handling my pistol under some stress, shooting accurately, quickly & thinking in some tactical fashion (movement, cover, reloads, etc). No I don't "win" a lot, but I don't miss a lot either. It is how I choose to go, & does make me confident w/ my gun/ammo choice.:wavey:

I am sorry but you could not be more wrong. There are three things you need to have if you plan to win a gun fight.
1. Skill (accuracy speed and weapon manipulations)
2. Tactics. (the ability to deploy those skills to your advantage and to your opponents disadvantage.)
3. Mental fortitude to fight. Warrior mindset.

No matter how good you are if you go to pieces when the chips are down you will lose. That is where the ability to stay cool under pressure comes in over the best marksman in the world. I would rather have a mediocre shooter back me up who had qualities 2 and 3 over a grandmaster who cried like a baby at the first sign of trouble. If I were you I would not use IDPA as your serious practice time. Because we do things in competition that are deadly on the street. My biggest pet peeve is the cold range. I could see some seasoned competition shooter unloading his gun after he believes the shooting is over missing bad guy number 2 that was in the side lines.

As for your friend his lack of confidence in his own people is partly his own fault. He is a range master. I am my departments Firearms Instructor and armorer. If my guys are lacking the minimal skills I am partly to blame. Tell him he needs to take his job serious and get his people up to an area he feels comfortable with them backing him up. Because they are backing up themselves right now. Personally I could not live with myself if I failed my guys and they got hurt as a result. I don't mean this statement as an attack on your friend but rather a critique that I would want someone to tell me if I had said the same thing.

On the topic you are on the right track. You do practice with what you carry and you are taking the skills side of things more important than the equipment side. Honestly if there were a 9mm , 40 and 45 caliber pistols laying on a table in front of me with a bad guy charging me just past that. I would simple grab the pistol closest to me and worry about making my shots count.
Pat

Alaskapopo
11-09-2010, 20:59
I could care less if 45 ACP isn't easy to find in Mongolia or Egypt. Which I don't even know is the case, BTW.

I've never seen 9mm do better at barriers than any of the other major calibers. It may be ok but it's not superior.

Good point. I am not James Bond and could care less what ammo is available out of the country. When I do travel inside the US I bring my own ammo with me.
Pat

1SGMP
11-09-2010, 21:19
I could care less if 45 ACP isn't easy to find in Mongolia or Egypt. Which I don't even know is the case, BTW.

I've never seen 9mm do better at barriers than any of the other major calibers. It may be ok but it's not superior.

Well Sir, I have seen the 9mm out perform the 45acp and the 40 cal. Through car doors and windshields. NOw maybe that was a fluke thing But I did see it and was pretty impressed.
Additionally My point to finding ammo (9mm) anywhere was this. If by chance you did have to move to a differnet location wheather it be a state or country you are more likely to find 9mm than the 45acp.
1SG
Out

1SGMP
11-09-2010, 21:23
Reason I ask that, a LEO friend of mine was range master @ one of the local PD. He was a competative shooter, ameture gunsmith. He said less than 10% of the officers at his dept he felt comfortable with if they were behind him in a shooting situation. Why, because they never trained. Another friend of mine wanted to shoot for the pistol title at his dept. Of the 175 swron officers, only 15 could meet the reasonable min score to comptete. Of those 15, 14 were SWAT, my friend was 15th. My point again, & sorry ISGM, you still missed it, competition, familiarization w/ your carry gun, can only help in a violent, fast moving fight. I never said it prepares you for one or means you'll win one. but lack of usefull shooting under some stress can only leave you in the marginal catagory. Will it mean you are going to perform well, not necessarily, but again, if you shoot like crap in competition, I doubt you shoot better when the bullets fly.
Maybe that's why the high cap 9mm is so popular.:dunno: Maybe, maybe not. It's not about your personality, or your coolness under fire or whatever, but are you good, great or marginal w/ the gun you carry? How will you know? I think a gunfight is a hell of a time to figure it out. BTW, this does NOT apply to the gamers in IDPA either. The guys that are modifying their guns & loads to win the match are kidding themselves a bit IMO. I shoot full factory equiv loads, because it is my serious practice time. Not for tactics, but for handling my pistol under some stress, shooting accurately, quickly & thinking in some tactical fashion (movement, cover, reloads, etc). No I don't "win" a lot, but I don't miss a lot either. It is how I choose to go, & does make me confident w/ my gun/ammo choice.:wavey:
Jesus mary and Joseph Fred I get it.

JK-linux
11-09-2010, 21:23
I'm not someone who believes that one needs "hi capacity" as a civilian carrying a concealed weapon for personal protection. That said, I recently replaced my 642 with a Colt Cobra and I do appreciate having 6 rounds available instead of 5. I'm more likely to grab a .38 snubbie for a quick trip to the gas station or ATM, than I am to go through the hassle of changing my clothes to conceal my 8+1 1911 or 15+1 Glock 19 (or 6 rd S&W 19-3). Basically, the .38 is always on me if I'm awake whereas my larger pistols just don't wind up on me as often. Given where I generally travel, my general laziness and my frequent unplanned jaunts, the snubbie I constantly have on me is better than the duty-sized auto I intended to carry but didn't. That's just me though...

Alaskapopo
11-09-2010, 21:24
Well Sir, I have seen the 9mm out perform the 45acp and the 40 cal. Through car doors and windshields. NOw maybe that was a fluke thing But I did see it and was pretty impressed.
Additionally My point to finding ammo (9mm) anywhere was this. If by chance you did have to move to a differnet location wheather it be a state or country you are more likely to find 9mm than the 45acp.
1SG
Out

In my travels I have never seen a gun shop that carried 9mm but not 45 acp. In fact if you are carrying any of the common rounds your going to be fine. Now if you chose a 357 sig, 38 super, 10mm 45 gap or something like that you may be out of luck.
Pat

1SGMP
11-09-2010, 21:54
In my travels I have never seen a gun shop that carried 9mm but not 45 acp. In fact if you are carrying any of the common rounds your going to be fine. Now if you chose a 357 sig, 38 super, 10mm 45 gap or something like that you may be out of luck.
Pat
Roger That

fredj338
11-10-2010, 02:25
I am sorry but you could not be more wrong. There are three things you need to have if you plan to win a gun fight.
1. Skill (accuracy speed and weapon manipulations)
2. Tactics. (the ability to deploy those skills to your advantage and to your opponents disadvantage.)
3. Mental fortitude to fight. Warrior mindset.

No matter how good you are if you go to pieces when the chips are down you will lose. That is where the ability to stay cool under pressure comes in over the best marksman in the world. I would rather have a mediocre shooter back me up who had qualities 2 and 3 over a grandmaster who cried like a baby at the first sign of trouble. If I were you I would not use IDPA as your serious practice time. Because we do things in competition that are deadly on the street. My biggest pet peeve is the cold range. I could see some seasoned competition shooter unloading his gun after he believes the shooting is over missing bad guy number 2 that was in the side lines.

As for your friend his lack of confidence in his own people is partly his own fault. He is a range master. I am my departments Firearms Instructor and armorer. If my guys are lacking the minimal skills I am partly to blame. Tell him he needs to take his job serious and get his people up to an area he feels comfortable with them backing him up. Because they are backing up themselves right now. Personally I could not live with myself if I failed my guys and they got hurt as a result. I don't mean this statement as an attack on your friend but rather a critique that I would want someone to tell me if I had said the same thing.

On the topic you are on the right track. You do practice with what you carry and you are taking the skills side of things more important than the equipment side. Honestly if there were a 9mm , 40 and 45 caliber pistols laying on a table in front of me with a bad guy charging me just past that. I would simple grab the pistol closest to me and worry about making my shots count.
Pat
Point taken, what I meant was a lack of skill & all the coolness under fire isn't going to win the fight. The same is true for a lack of coolness under stress & great skills. You basically agree w/ me, when you list skill w/ your weapon as #1, so I can't be "more worng". The point, you will have no idea what you can do until you at least put some effort to do it. Since we can't all go out & have a gunfight, a good competition format is better than staying home & watching COPS on tv. When I do shoot IDPA, I shoot it the way I want, the tactics I want, with no regard for "winning" the stage or match or whatever. One reason I stopped shooting IPSC, such unrealistic stages & ammo requireements. Why I use real guns w/ real duty style ammo from my CCW rig when I do shoot. Yeah, the cold range thing is an issue, but then most places run that way. You are an FI, what would you tell your fellow LEO or serious CCW guys/gals to do for good practice? It certainly isn't going to the range & shooting pretty groups, which I do occasionally, or popping cans at the dump.:dunno:
You being a LEO FI, you know the importance of maintaining skill w/ your pistol. You also know you can't make LEO practice or train. They only have to pass quals & down here, that is all most do. I've got relatives & friends that are LEO, very few of them practice or do mor ethan shoot their required quals.

beforeobamabans
11-10-2010, 16:45
Interesting discussion. Still civil on page six? Congratulations! I find it interesting that all the 1911(and other low cap proponents) all seem to assume that their gunfight is going to take a time out while they change mags. I will admit to being influenced by the writings of Gabe Suarez. If you want to read one of the best 'caliber vs capacity' articles, Google Gabe's writings on the subject. He carries a G17 as a result of his belief that their is NO SUBSTITUTE for rounds on board. I carry all three of my Glocks below for one reason or another and for me, their is no feeling like stepping out of the house with 17+1 on board.

cole
11-10-2010, 19:42
Interesting discussion. Still civil on page six? Congratulations! I find it interesting that all the 1911(and other low cap proponents) all seem to assume that their gunfight is going to take a time out while they change mags. I will admit to being influenced by the writings of Gabe Suarez. If you want to read one of the best 'caliber vs capacity' articles, Google Gabe's writings on the subject. He carries a G17 as a result of his belief that their is NO SUBSTITUTE for rounds on board. I carry all three of my Glocks below for one reason or another and for me, their is no feeling like stepping out of the house with 17+1 on board.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
:upeyes: Who has assumed anything, except it would appear you assuming “all” 1911 proponents are assuming something? I find those that assume assumption “interesting”. What’s the basis of your statement?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I often CCW a 1911, as noted, because 1) I shoot it best, 2) I can carry it more comfortably than my G17/30, 3) I can carry a spare mag more comfortably compared to a fat Glock mag and 4) as a bonus, it's .45acp.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Nothing I've just said here, or said earlier, implies I assume I'll have time for a mag change. Or, that I assume I'll need more (or less) than 15-17 rounds. Or, that .45acp is guaranteed to incapacitate better than 9mm.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
And, “best” remains subjective. I'm sure we can all provide "stories" supporting whatever argument we wish. If it was any other way we’d not be having this discussion. CCW is about compromise and the definition of that is often individual and subjective. Saying 9mm (objectively an inferior caliber to .45acp all else being equal) is without qualification “as effective” as .45acp is likewise based on bias and/or assumption. There’s more to the equation and not one unilaterally, one-size-fits-all right answer.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

1SGMP
11-10-2010, 21:43
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
:upeyes: Who has assumed anything, except it would appear you assuming “all” 1911 proponents are assuming something? I find those that assume assumption “interesting”. What’s the basis of your statement?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I often CCW a 1911, as noted, because 1) I shoot it best, 2) I can carry it more comfortably than my G17/30, 3) I can carry a spare mag more comfortably compared to a fat Glock mag and 4) as a bonus, it's .45acp.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Nothing I've just said here, or said earlier, implies I assume I'll have time for a mag change. Or, that I assume I'll need more (or less) than 15-17 rounds. Or, that .45acp is guaranteed to incapacitate better than 9mm.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
And, “best” remains subjective. I'm sure we can all provide "stories" supporting whatever argument we wish. If it was any other way we’d not be having this discussion. CCW is about compromise and the definition of that is often individual and subjective. Saying 9mm (objectively an inferior caliber to .45acp all else being equal) is without qualification “as effective” as .45acp is likewise based on bias and/or assumption. There’s more to the equation and not one unilaterally, one-size-fits-all right answer.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Just read gabe Suarez article. It will help you understand .
1SG
Out

cole
11-10-2010, 22:12
Just read gabe Suarez article. It will help you understand .
1SG
Out

:faint: Again, an assumption... from you. You assume I have not read it because I don't think it's the final word. I have read it. It's Gabe's opinion, not gospell. Opinions vary. Odd that this concept is so difficult to understand. Maybe I'm just too old to still think I know everything.

1SGMP
11-11-2010, 00:49
:faint: Again, an assumption... from you. You assume I have not read it because I don't think it's the final word. I have read it. It's Gabe's opinion, not gospell. Opinions vary. Odd that this concept is so difficult to understand. Maybe I'm just too old to still think I know everything.
I did not assume anything, I just ask you to read it. Actually the concept is very easy to understand (more is better)

fredj338
11-11-2010, 01:05
:faint: Again, an assumption... from you. You assume I have not read it because I don't think it's the final word. I have read it. It's Gabe's opinion, not gospell. Opinions vary. Odd that this concept is so difficult to understand. Maybe I'm just too old to still think I know everything.

Old Gabe has changed his tune over the years. he used to advocate some form of marksmanship, now it's point & hose. Yes, there are times for that, but hey, who am I to judge, he writes books & gets paid well to train others.:dunno:
Interesting discussion. Still civil on page six? Congratulations! I find it interesting that all the 1911(and other low cap proponents) all seem to assume that their gunfight is going to take a time out while they change mags. I will admit to being influenced by the writings of Gabe Suarez. If you want to read one of the best 'caliber vs capacity' articles, Google Gabe's writings on the subject. He carries a G17 as a result of his belief that their is NO SUBSTITUTE for rounds on board. I carry all three of my Glocks below for one reason or another and for me, their is no feeling like stepping out of the house with 17+1 on board.
It is no more assuming to not have need of a mag change as those assuming they need 17+1 or more. Besides, you are assuming you won't have need for another mag to clear a malfunction or just for more ammo by not carrying a spare. It's more about what one is comfy with, which I think was the original question. BTW, we don't advocate stopping in the line of fire to change mags.:stooges:

beforeobamabans
11-11-2010, 07:15
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
:upeyes: Who has assumed anything, except it would appear you assuming “all” 1911 proponents are assuming something? I find those that assume assumption “interesting”. What’s the basis of your statement?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I often CCW a 1911, as noted, because 1) I shoot it best, 2) I can carry it more comfortably than my G17/30, 3) I can carry a spare mag more comfortably compared to a fat Glock mag and 4) as a bonus, it's .45acp.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Nothing I've just said here, or said earlier, implies I assume I'll have time for a mag change. Or, that I assume I'll need more (or less) than 15-17 rounds. Or, that .45acp is guaranteed to incapacitate better than 9mm.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
And, “best” remains subjective. I'm sure we can all provide "stories" supporting whatever argument we wish. If it was any other way we’d not be having this discussion. CCW is about compromise and the definition of that is often individual and subjective. Saying 9mm (objectively an inferior caliber to .45acp all else being equal) is without qualification “as effective” as .45acp is likewise based on bias and/or assumption. There’s more to the equation and not one unilaterally, one-size-fits-all right answer.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

I'm happy for you that you are comfortable with your carry decisions. Your response mischaracterizes my post by turning my generalizations into absolutes. I said, "seem to assume" because every low cap supporter dismisses the capacity issue because they carry an extra mag. It is not difficult to imagine a scenario where the act of reloading gets you killed. Also, I described Gabe's writings on the subject as "one of the best" not THE best. You may choose to dismiss him but the fact is that he is a very experienced gunfight trainer who understands how people of all levels of skill and training react to the stress of a gunfight.

1SGMP
11-11-2010, 08:34
I'm happy for you that you are comfortable with your carry decisions. Your response mischaracterizes my post by turning my generalizations into absolutes. I said, "seem to assume" because every low cap supporter dismisses the capacity issue because they carry an extra mag. It is not difficult to imagine a scenario where the act of reloading gets you killed. Also, I described Gabe's writings on the subject as "one of the best" not THE best. You may choose to dismiss him but the fact is that he is a very experienced gunfight trainer who understands how people of all levels of skill and training react to the stress of a gunfight.
WELL PUT Sir, Jesus wish I had thought of that. I think most of these guys are just looking for an argument or a subject that they can argue about. On this forum once someone enters a post about a particular weapon they like. BANG you automatically get bombarded with comments and cynical comments.
Anyway have a good one
1SG
Out

Berto
11-11-2010, 09:45
WELL PUT Sir, Jesus wish I had thought of that. I think most of these guys are just looking for an argument or a subject that they can argue about. On this forum once someone enters a post about a particular weapon they like. BANG you automatically get bombarded with comments and cynical comments.
Anyway have a good one
1SG
Out

You're full of crap.








:supergrin:

unit1069
11-11-2010, 10:08
And, “best” remains subjective. I'm sure we can all provide "stories" supporting whatever argument we wish. If it was any other way we’d not be having this discussion. CCW is about compromise and the definition of that is often individual and subjective.

Well I don't think anybody in his/her right mind would disagree with that.

I carry a Kel-Tec PF-9 most of the time because I lead a very dull, routine life. If I am going somewhere out of my normal routine I'll take either my Glock or my Steyr because 1) they're better guns and 2) they're more reliable. (How I wish Glock, Sig, Steyr, etc ... would make a reasonably-priced CCW pistol the size of the PF-9!) The PF-9 is just so convenient and light; and except for a half-dozen FTEs over 1,000 plus rounds it's been fine.

I've never owned a 1911 but the ones I've held are all heavier than the pistols I currently own. I'll take the high capacity, lighter weight over the lower capacity, heavier weight every time. I'm not hung up on caliber as long as the debate is not .25ACP vs .44 Magnum or some such nonsense. Any decent self-defense caliber is adequate so that issue is a non-starter with me.

There are many hundreds of posts I've read by 1911 advocates that extol the great ergonomics of the platform and I can understand that. If I someday own a 1911 I might change my mind but my current thinking is that if I can't adequately defend myself with the Glock or Steyr a switch to a somewhat better platform probably won't make a significant difference for someone like me. It's apparent that others think that if they can't adequately defend themselves with 7 or more rounds of .45ACP from a 1911 a switch to a higher capacity handgun won't make a big difference for them.

cole
11-11-2010, 10:31
I'm happy for you that you are comfortable with your carry decisions. Your response mischaracterizes my post by turning my generalizations into absolutes. I said, "seem to assume" because every low cap supporter dismisses the capacity issue because they carry an extra mag. It is not difficult to imagine a scenario where the act of reloading gets you killed. Also, I described Gabe's writings on the subject as "one of the best" not THE best. You may choose to dismiss him but the fact is that he is a very experienced gunfight trainer who understands how people of all levels of skill and training react to the stress of a gunfight.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Gabe, not God, and not the only "serious operator", advocates the G17 AND two spare mags. This is a great defensive setup for sure. However, that's too much hardware for me in suburbia. Even one spare G17 mag, for me, is like having a gun on the other side. Again, a CCW is, IMO, about making individual compromises.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
It "seems" to me that "all” (not really all, just being sarcastic) high cap supporters assume they need a trillion rounds of 9mm (not really a trillion, just being dramatic for effect) for their concrete jungle incursions. I look for more balance in my CCW options.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
On capacity, I, as a "low cap supporter", dismiss nothing. I prefer having a spare mag for back up (both ammo AND malfunction) than relying only on the mag in the gun. For the 1911, the thin mag carries much more comfortably for me. Plus, the thinness of the 1911 agrees IWB with more of my pants and body. And, again, I shoot my 1911 best. So, the 1911 is more comfortable and more comforting most days.

I do keep this thread's subject line and OP's question in mind. "Sacrifice", a good word selection, is really about making "compromises" and that's fundamentally what a caliber and CCW selection is. Bigger gun = higher capacity of a smaller caliber OR lower capacity of a larger caliber. Smaller gun = lower capacity in either caliber OR even smaller caliber in lessened capacity. It's a good question because there's not one right answer.

<o:p></o:p>
As noted, my G26 also gets into the CCW rotation (often for OWB days and in summer) and a G17 is my HD gun. If I could only have one caliber, it would be 9mm. I also think 9mm serves most shooters best. And, I’d get rid of my 1911 (heaven forbid) before my G17. I think 9mm is a great, effective round and has its place. For me, the Glock and 1911 has their place, just as 9mm and .45acp do. I like variety.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
WELL PUT Sir, Jesus wish I had thought of that. I think most of these guys are just looking for an argument or a subject that they can argue about. On this forum once someone enters a post about a particular weapon they like. BANG you automatically get bombarded with comments and cynical comments.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
GT Definition: "Well put" = See criteria #1 in Post #91 (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16244147&postcount=91).<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
And, your closing comments are certainly a case of pot calling the kettle black IMO. Now I’m remembering why I often stay away from the caliber forum.

gatorboy
11-11-2010, 10:54
The grip is different. The G37 has the same grip as the G19 while the G21 has the huge 2X4 grip made for King Kong.

Yep, it's how S&W made the m+p so ergonomic with the old ACP, staggered between ss and da though I realize no mags are true ds.

cadillacguns
11-11-2010, 10:54
fred and others bring up a good point, in restricted ten round territory what will it be a 10 rd mag (11 total) G-26/G-19/G-17, or the more powerful G-27 (9 or 9 +1) G-23, or G-22 with 10 rd mag (11 total).

I would go with best alternative the G-23.

fastbolt
11-11-2010, 11:59
I think that cole's last post deals with the original premise of the thread in a pretty nice encapsulation of some of the issues that have repeated throughout this thread topic.

It's not "sacrifice". It's reasonable compromise.

Situational context has to be taken into consideration as one of the many factors which are normally going to be considered by folks.

Not everyone who isn't required to do so may want to carry a military or LE "combat loadout" or a larger caliber in firearms and ammunition every day of their normal lives.

Sure, many non-LE folks who first receive their CCW license/permit may feel somewhat enthusiastic about it (like many new LE who are carrying a gun on their own time for the first time) and load themselves down with heavy guns and a lot of ammunition. That palls for some folks, and some feel it's "necessary" for them to continue to do so.

Folks who limit themselves to only 1 or 2 handguns may find the caliber issue sort of decided for them by their selection of handgun platform, size & weight. This can be true for folks who do little training & practice, or those who do a lot of it. It's their choice in gun(s) that may drive the caliber factor in one direction or another.

Other folks who either like to own & carry a number of different handguns, whether or not they do minimal practice or a lot of formal training & practice, may find themselves facing a number of choices where caliber (and capacity) is now a factor that's a bit higher up on their list of things they want to consider.

I know the saying of "It should be comforting, not comfortable" is something a lot of folks like to promote. However, if a handgun choice isn't within an acceptable range of comfort for the folks who carry by choice, and not by requirement, it's sometimes possible that an uncomfortable combination of gun, holster & spare mag(s) may not be carried as often as something which is more comfortable or practical within the normal daily activities of either private persons carrying under a CCW, or the average off-duty cop who is given the option to carry off-duty (but not required).

I've been told in a couple of seminars that some statistics seem to indicate that only upwards of 20% of off-duty cops carry weapons on their own time. Over the course of having been a LE firearms instructor for more than 20 years, I've certainly listened to a significant number of cops say they don't want to spend money on buying guns of their own, and the issued gun is just too large for them to want to carry it off-duty.

Fortunately, I've also noticed what may be a slowly increasing trend for newer cops to be willing to buy and carry 1, 2 or more personally-owned handguns as authorized off-duty weapons. When working with a lot of these folks I've heard them say that size & caliber are important considerations for many off them when selecting weapons. Less so sheer capacity. Unfortunately, I've noticed a number of folks choose heavier recoiling calibers which adversely affected their abilities when it came to recoil management, controllability and consistent accuracy. Some folks being unwilling to invest more time in learning to more effectively and accurately shoot some heavier recoiling is something you can see, from time to time. Some folks seem willing to accept just being at the minimal acceptable level of demonstrated skills when it comes to quals.

Different strokes for different folks ...

Caliber? Suit yourself.

I can shoot all the common major revolver & pistol calibers well enough to keep my Master rating at my former agency ... from .38 Spl to .44 Magnum.

When I first started carrying as a young cop I felt the .357 Magnum & .45 were the ONLY calibers worth carrying. (I may have said that earlier.)

At the end of my career I found myself carrying an issued .45 ... but more often than not it was either a .38 Spl or a 9mm off-duty. Sometimes one of my many .45's or .40's. Not as often as the .38's & 9's. though. Times, experience and opinions change, it seems. ;)

1SGMP
11-11-2010, 12:39
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Gabe, not God, and not the only "serious operator", advocates the G17 AND two spare mags. This is a great defensive setup for sure. However, that's too much hardware for me in suburbia. Even one spare G17 mag, for me, is like having a gun on the other side. Again, a CCW is, IMO, about making individual compromises.<o:p></o:p>
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It "seems" to me that "all” (not really all, just being sarcastic) high cap supporters assume they need a trillion rounds of 9mm (not really a trillion, just being dramatic for effect) for their concrete jungle incursions. I look for more balance in my CCW options.<o:p></o:p>
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On capacity, I, as a "low cap supporter", dismiss nothing. I prefer having a spare mag for back up (both ammo AND malfunction) than relying only on the mag in the gun. For the 1911, the thin mag carries much more comfortably for me. Plus, the thinness of the 1911 agrees IWB with more of my pants and body. And, again, I shoot my 1911 best. So, the 1911 is more comfortable and more comforting most days.

I do keep this thread's subject line and OP's question in mind. "Sacrifice", a good word selection, is really about making "compromises" and that's fundamentally what a caliber and CCW selection is. Bigger gun = higher capacity of a smaller caliber OR lower capacity of a larger caliber. Smaller gun = lower capacity in either caliber OR even smaller caliber in lessened capacity. It's a good question because there's not one right answer.

<o:p></o:p>
As noted, my G26 also gets into the CCW rotation (often for OWB days and in summer) and a G17 is my HD gun. If I could only have one caliber, it would be 9mm. I also think 9mm serves most shooters best. And, I’d get rid of my 1911 (heaven forbid) before my G17. I think 9mm is a great, effective round and has its place. For me, the Glock and 1911 has their place, just as 9mm and .45acp do. I like variety.<o:p></o:p>
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GT Definition: "Well put" = See criteria #1 in Post #91 (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16244147&postcount=91).<o:p></o:p>
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And, your closing comments are certainly a case of pot calling the kettle black IMO. Now I’m remembering why I often stay away from the caliber forum.
Stay away from caliber forums?????you have 11 replies to this one subject. Its painfully obvious you cant stay away. Which is a good thing because obviously you have some expierence and knowledge with firearms. It would be nice if you could respond in a LESS sarcastic manner,and try to spread your knowledge to others who are less fortunate than you and I . (before you say it, I do Have alot of knowlegde in).
firearms)
I am happy to know when push comes to shove and when it's time to dance you would choose a HI CAP weapon over your beloved 1911. (i own a Kimber Pro Carry II,Para LTC S&W 1911 PD and a Remington Rand Gov't model) I love my 1911's. and carrying a glock mag is no more difficult than carrying a single stack 1911 mag, for me at least.
lastly If you are a Veteran as I am, Happy Veterans Day
Out here
The 1SG

cole
11-11-2010, 14:55
... It would be nice if you could respond in a LESS sarcastic manner,and try to spread your knowledge to others who are less fortunate than you and I . ...

Truce. :cheers:

In the spirit of sharing opinion/knowledge, just for you: Home Defense Handgun: My Selection and Configuration... and Why (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1283553)

1SGMP
11-11-2010, 16:18
Truce. :cheers:

In the spirit of sharing opinion/knowledge, just for you: Home Defense Handgun: My Selection and Configuration... and Why (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1283553)
You Sir are a fine American and I would be happy to throw a few back with you. If you are ever in the Boston area, please look me up.

Alex

Glolt20-91
11-13-2010, 13:03
I think that cole's last post deals with the original premise of the thread in a pretty nice encapsulation of some of the issues that have repeated throughout this thread topic.

It's not "sacrifice". It's reasonable compromise.

Situational context has to be taken into consideration as one of the many factors which are normally going to be considered by folks.

Not everyone who isn't required to do so may want to carry a military or LE "combat loadout" or a larger caliber in firearms and ammunition every day of their normal lives.

Sure, many non-LE folks who first receive their CCW license/permit may feel somewhat enthusiastic about it (like many new LE who are carrying a gun on their own time for the first time) and load themselves down with heavy guns and a lot of ammunition. That palls for some folks, and some feel it's "necessary" for them to continue to do so.

Folks who limit themselves to only 1 or 2 handguns may find the caliber issue sort of decided for them by their selection of handgun platform, size & weight. This can be true for folks who do little training & practice, or those who do a lot of it. It's their choice in gun(s) that may drive the caliber factor in one direction or another.

Other folks who either like to own & carry a number of different handguns, whether or not they do minimal practice or a lot of formal training & practice, may find themselves facing a number of choices where caliber (and capacity) is now a factor that's a bit higher up on their list of things they want to consider.

I know the saying of "It should be comforting, not comfortable" is something a lot of folks like to promote. However, if a handgun choice isn't within an acceptable range of comfort for the folks who carry by choice, and not by requirement, it's sometimes possible that an uncomfortable combination of gun, holster & spare mag(s) may not be carried as often as something which is more comfortable or practical within the normal daily activities of either private persons carrying under a CCW, or the average off-duty cop who is given the option to carry off-duty (but not required).

I've been told in a couple of seminars that some statistics seem to indicate that only upwards of 20% of off-duty cops carry weapons on their own time. Over the course of having been a LE firearms instructor for more than 20 years, I've certainly listened to a significant number of cops say they don't want to spend money on buying guns of their own, and the issued gun is just too large for them to want to carry it off-duty.

Fortunately, I've also noticed what may be a slowly increasing trend for newer cops to be willing to buy and carry 1, 2 or more personally-owned handguns as authorized off-duty weapons. When working with a lot of these folks I've heard them say that size & caliber are important considerations for many off them when selecting weapons. Less so sheer capacity. Unfortunately, I've noticed a number of folks choose heavier recoiling calibers which adversely affected their abilities when it came to recoil management, controllability and consistent accuracy. Some folks being unwilling to invest more time in learning to more effectively and accurately shoot some heavier recoiling is something you can see, from time to time. Some folks seem willing to accept just being at the minimal acceptable level of demonstrated skills when it comes to quals.

Different strokes for different folks ...

Caliber? Suit yourself.

I can shoot all the common major revolver & pistol calibers well enough to keep my Master rating at my former agency ... from .38 Spl to .44 Magnum.

When I first started carrying as a young cop I felt the .357 Magnum & .45 were the ONLY calibers worth carrying. (I may have said that earlier.)

At the end of my career I found myself carrying an issued .45 ... but more often than not it was either a .38 Spl or a 9mm off-duty. Sometimes one of my many .45's or .40's. Not as often as the .38's & 9's. though. Times, experience and opinions change, it seems. ;)

Well put.

Going back several decades, if an officer/patrolman couldn't qualify with the .357mag after general (and personal) instruction; they weren't hired. Our department qualified quarterly and POST was twice a year; this included Bill Jordan's style of point shooting. That was the standard that everyone bucked up to and everyone always qualified, even out to 50 yards.

I never felt undergunned with the .357, even with 1:3 or 1:4 odds; never felt undergunned with the 1911 either.

I have a G17 and two G20s, but my go to town CCW is a 1911/.45auto IWB, I'm very confident with this decision and for me, magazine capacity is a non-issue . . . only first shot accuracy. FWIW, our local SO carries Colt 1911s.

A number of locals who live and work in our very rural southwest setting; .357/.44mags are popular choices for carry because they work very well in our environment.

Thank you for your service. :thumbsup:

Bob :cowboy:

fastbolt
11-13-2010, 13:36
De nada. ;)

A good wheelgun is still a viable choice for many situations and circumstances.

BOGE
11-13-2010, 16:50
...I never felt undergunned with the .357, even with 1:3 or 1:4 odds...

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo129/Boge_1960/BarneyFife.jpg

:rofl::tongueout:

Glolt20-91
11-14-2010, 12:46
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo129/Boge_1960/BarneyFife.jpg

:rofl::tongueout:

And he lived to retire. :rofl:

There was a time when we were issued those types of holsters and had black & white pics on our ID. :cool:

Bob :cowboy:

CanyonMan
11-14-2010, 14:24
And he lived to retire. :rofl:

There was a time when we were issued those types of holsters and had black & white pics on our ID. :cool:

Bob :cowboy:


Amen ! Even by carrying just one bullet in his shirt pocket ! :rofl:

One bad Hombre !





CM

Glolt20-91
11-14-2010, 14:38
Amen ! Even by carrying just one bullet in his shirt pocket ! :rofl:

One bad Hombre !





CM

Probably a Silvertip left over from the Lone stRanger. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:

CanyonMan
11-14-2010, 16:00
Probably a Silvertip left over from the Lone stRanger. :supergrin:

Bob :cowboy:



:supergrin:




CM