Does 140fps do anything? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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FireMedicKeith
10-27-2010, 21:39
Well, that is pretty much the question. I have been looking at getting a Glock 29 for carry. I now carry and 27 and 23. According to double tap a 180gr DT round out of a G23 travels at 1100fps, and out of the G29 it travels 1240fps. So is it worth it to buy a G29 for the extra 140fps? Doesn't seem like it is much of a difference to me.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_26&products_id=144

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=381

Brian Lee
10-27-2010, 21:56
I have chrono data I've recorded for several different 10MM Double Tap loads I tested in my G20 with a variety of different barrels (two of them extended 6" models), but the 180 grain Nosler isn't one I've measured yet.

Of what I've tested, (135g Nosler JHP - 155g Barnes XPB - 200g Beartooth - 165g Golden Sabers - 155& 165g Gold Dots) DT will generally exaggerate their velocities, usually by at least 100 FPS, but only one I tested was under by more than 250 FPS. (the Barnes 155 grain XPB)

And I almost forgot: DT's 147 grain 9x25 Dillon loads are also about 200 FPS short of DT's published claim. 1495 claimed, but only an average of 1300 delivered.

Truth be told, you can't really base your opinion on anything DT says about velocity - at least not in 10MM or 9x25. I've never bought ammo from them in any other calibers.

But it's still probably a safe bet that their 10MM stuff is more powerful than their .40 caliber stuff is.

Oh, and I almost forgot to answer your real question: If we assumed the velocities you mentioned were accurate, a change from 1100 to 1240 FPS may be only a 12.7 percent velocity increase, but it's a 27 percent increase in muzzle energy (1240 squared / 1100 squared). 1100 is only almost supersonic, while 1240 really is, if only barely. You'd have to get into that whole argument about whether the supersonic ballistic pressure wave really causes more damage - I think it does, but a whole lot of people disagree, and I've not whacked enough guys to say for sure if I'm right.

Glolt20-91
10-27-2010, 22:17
I'd go with .40 180gr or 200gr XTPs over any 10mm Nosler loads from DT.

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion

200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"

Bob :cowboy:

FireMedicKeith
10-27-2010, 22:27
Ok, lets agree that the "facts" that I got from DT were wrong. So what is the difference in velocity between the G23 and G29 with the same round? Also, does this difference in velocity really make any difference at all?

AZ Husker
10-27-2010, 22:44
Don't forget to factor in ft/lbs.

TxGun
10-27-2010, 22:44
Obviously it's all going to depend on the specific ammo used in those guns. And yes, if you have two different loads, DT's or any other maker's, that have an actual 140 fps difference in velocity with the same weight bullet...that is a pretty significant energy increase, IMO. You'll notice that difference when shooting the gun(s).

thegriz18
10-27-2010, 22:48
Go with the G23. The .40 S&W has been arranging meetings at the pearly gates since 1990. You can find ammo for it at Wal-Mart and the plethora of defense ammo for it beats the 10mm 10-1.

crazymoose
10-27-2010, 22:51
Keep in mind that energy increases as the square of the velocity multiplied by the mass, and energy is what does the work that stops the target (penetration and expansion of the bullet). It's up to you to decide what the "sweet spot" is between energy and manageable recoil, but all things equal, the more powerful round has the potential to do more damage.

Sonnytoo
10-28-2010, 00:02
...and the NYPD and others did a fine job with .38 Specials @ 800 fps for many yrs. And the 1911 is still around that velocity...and I wouldn't care to get hit by one.
IMHO, 850-1000 fps is plenty with 165 grains or more. Most modern SD ammo now expands at a much lower velocity than in past yrs, and expansion will do the trick in about any defensive caliber.
I have a model 29, but only use it for woods carry. Too much for a plain human. Too much penetration can be a problem also. Could put a .40 barrel in it, I suppose.
Sonnytoo

Hogpauls
10-28-2010, 00:44
140 FPS faster equals to around 130.92 ft lbs more energy. Seems to me whatever your target is, 130 more ft lbs of energy is pretty significant. I'm kinda biased I love the 10, have a 40 as well.

As someone else mentioned before practice ammo will be widely available for the 40 and more affordable. Just based on availability in my parts, Wally World has Fed plinking 40 for $14 no 10MM. Sportsmans Warehouse American Eagle 10MM $29. For me and many others reloading for the 10 is the only way to make it affordable.

G26S239
10-28-2010, 00:48
140 fps is ~ the difference between SAAMI standard 9mm and 9mm +P+ in 115 grains. I happen to like the Winchester 115 +P+ so I consider 140 fps a useful improvement @ 40 caliber as well.

Ogie
10-28-2010, 08:17
No, not in a pistol round.

thegriz18
10-28-2010, 10:58
Buy the .40. Forget the 10mm. Unless you reload, or buy from Buffalo Bore/Corbon the difference between factory 10mm and .40 S&W is minimal. After you pay $35 for 20 rounds and then $12 for shipping you'll wish you bought the .40.

The way I look at it, if you reload, the .40 can do most of what the 10mm does. The difference in performance won't be huge. There will be a difference, and the 10mm will win, but how quantifiable will the difference be on target? If you are shooting deer, will a 180 grain 10mm @ 1250fps produce more damage than a 180 grain .40 @ 1100fps? It might, but you will probably have the same end result with a well placed shot...dead deer. Now how much more did the 10mm round cost compared to the .40 round? The 10mm gives me more range you might say. My answer to that is how much? 35 yards instead of 25 yards? Maybe 40? If you can shoot, a .40 can be lethal on a whitetail out to 75 yards. However, for most common folks, using stock pistols with combat sights, once you get passed 25-30 yards you probably should be using a shoulder fired weapon.

matt c
10-28-2010, 11:25
40 has such a good reputation in law enforcement I don't think the 10mm would be anything necessary. Also remember you have to shoot the round accurately to have an effect. So I think out of a 22oz pistol, you'll be more reliably accurate with the 40 over 10mm. The 10mm might be more fun to shoot though. a good way to decide what you might want to shoot, shoot the gun without hearing and eye protection at night....You'll learn pretty fast that you may just not want to have to defend your life with a bigger bullet as it just might be too much of a shock to you to allow you to get off another round.

Berto
10-28-2010, 12:24
Depending on the specific round and bullet weight, 140fps could be the difference between the bullet expanding as designed, or not, when encountering clothing, bone, etc.
An example would be the FBI load in a snubby vs a 4" barrel.

Ogie
10-28-2010, 12:38
Depending on the specific round and bullet weight, 140fps could be the difference between the bullet expanding as designed, or not, when encountering clothing, bone, etc.
An example would be the FBI load in a snubby vs a 4" barrel.

The FBI load isn't going to expand anyway.

Natty
10-28-2010, 12:46
Yes it can make the gun seem to have a snappier recoil, slower follow up shots on target, a louder report, and more muzzle flash. And with many popular loads the HP will expand too fast or even break apart making it less effective and penetrate less than a slower or heavier bullet.

fredj338
10-28-2010, 12:49
It depends on the bullet chose. Even a 50fps slower vel can affect bullet performance. The 175grWSTHP is a good example. It performs terrific @ the 1230fps+ vel of a 10mm. Slow it down to 1150fps & that 75fps+/- vel loss causes the bullet to fail to expand.

cowboy1964
10-28-2010, 13:00
Precisely why you should be using a bullet design that expands consistently at all reasonable and foreseeable velocities.

Berto
10-28-2010, 13:16
The FBI load isn't going to expand anyway.


Where did you get that?

Ogie
10-28-2010, 14:37
Where did you get that?

It's a 158 gr. LSWCHP with penetration of about 20 inches. Expansion will be minimal, if any at all. You are talking about 38 special +P, aren't you?

Trigger Finger
10-28-2010, 14:53
It's a 158 gr. LSWCHP with penetration of about 20 inches. Expansion will be minimal, if any at all. You are talking about 38 special +P, aren't you?

I think the 158 gr. LSWCHP does expand more than minimally in a 38 Special +P. It may only penetrate about 13 to 15 inches overall however.

I think an increase of about 140 fps is worth it and do not see the bullet over expanding and not penetrating enough. If you can shoot your gun just as accurately and it feeds the same I say go for it, it could make a difference in a firefight and definitely won't hurt!!

fredj338
10-28-2010, 16:29
Precisely why you should be using a bullet design that expands consistently at all reasonable and foreseeable velocities.

Well, that is hte rub isn't it. To ask a bullet to perfrom the same over say a 200fps window is pretty tough to do. It will either over expand or frag @ higher vel or not expand @ lower vel. Many of the bonded bullets work great at their design window or higher, but start to fail when vel drops off. So again, does say 100-150fps matter, it will depend on your bullet choice.

Berto
10-28-2010, 17:01
It's a 158 gr. LSWCHP with penetration of about 20 inches. Expansion will be minimal, if any at all. You are talking about 38 special +P, aren't you?

Yes...but you're not anywhere near correct in saying that it won't expand.
It's well respected for that very reason, and numerous different doctrines of testing verify that, along with decades of police use.
It's true the hardness of the lead can be a variable worth noting in the short barrels, but typically this load runs .55-.63 expanded and penetrates around 15". The faster stuff like Buffalo Bore will often expand and fragment.
The point regarding velocity is simply this;
A 2" snub running 800fps may or may not expand in all the right circumstances (Federal has harder bullet/thick denim over target) whereas going 140fps faster (like from a 4" barrel) the same bullet will expand and possibly fragment. This can be applied to other bullets and calibers, so yes 140fps can matter.

Angry Fist
10-28-2010, 17:12
Hell yeah it will! :supergrin:

SDGlock23
10-28-2010, 18:07
We each offer our own opinion, but if I were you I would stay away from the 10mm. I think the difference in performance, which I believe to be minimal, isn't worth the added cost of the 10mm. Now my G29sf is very accurate, but really no more so than my G27 or G23. And honestly if you take a warm (but safe) .40 from a G23 and a warm (but safe) 10mm from a G29, there isn't much difference in performance. Plus I think the G23 feels better and it gives you better capacity. The added 150 fps isn't worth it in my opinion.

Practically all .40 cal JHP's are designed to operate at standard .40 SW velocities, and although there will always be exceptions, you will not have a problem with .40 SW hollow points expanding. Even the 200gr XTP, when loaded to around 1000-1050 from the G23 expands very, very nicely and penetrates deep, which is essentially perfect!

glock20c10mm
10-29-2010, 00:25
Maybe looking at it from a different aspect will help.

140fps = 95mph

In my book, yea, that's worth it. Metal moving at 95mph by itself is scary enough if you're in the way of it. Add 95mph on top of any other speed, and practically no matter what it's a nice addition in reguard to terminal performance when the bullet meets flesh and bone as long as the bullet is still capable of penetrating far enough.

Think about it, especially when switching to looking at rifle cartridges. The WHOLE difference between a 30-06 and 300 Win Mag is ~200fps. And the percentage difference in pistol cartridges is a whole lot more.

The 10mm Auto takes SD in common SD cartridges to a whole new level.


Good Shooting,
Craig

cowboywannabe
10-29-2010, 01:50
135gr. @ 1225 fps vs. 135gr @ 1425 fps.

make mine a 10mm thank you.

Natty
10-29-2010, 07:23
135gr. @ 1225 fps vs. 135gr @ 1425 fps.

make mine a 10mm thank you.

There are 40SW loads that are also 135gr @ 1425 fps.

:cool:

cowboywannabe
10-29-2010, 08:08
There are 40SW loads that are also 135gr @ 1425 fps.

:cool:

i was giving the .40cal the benefit of the doubt and slashing the velocities of the 10mm:rofl:

that 10mm load is "rated" at 1600 fps, but we all know every caliber loaded is pimped to be more than what it actually is.

NonPCnraRN
10-29-2010, 12:18
I have chrono data I've recorded for several different 10MM Double Tap loads I tested in my G20 with a variety of different barrels (two of them extended 6" models), but the 180 grain Nosler isn't one I've measured yet.

Of what I've tested, (135g Nosler JHP - 155g Barnes XPB - 200g Beartooth - 165g Golden Sabers - 155& 165g Gold Dots) DT will generally exaggerate their velocities, usually by at least 100 FPS, but only one I tested was under by more than 250 FPS. (the Barnes 155 grain XPB)

And I almost forgot: DT's 147 grain 9x25 Dillon loads are also about 200 FPS short of DT's published claim. 1495 claimed, but only an average of 1300 delivered.

Truth be told, you can't really base your opinion on anything DT says about velocity - at least not in 10MM or 9x25. I've never bought ammo from them in any other calibers.

But it's still probably a safe bet that their 10MM stuff is more powerful than their .40 caliber stuff is.

Oh, and I almost forgot to answer your real question: If we assumed the velocities you mentioned were accurate, a change from 1100 to 1240 FPS may be only a 12.7 percent velocity increase, but it's a 27 percent increase in muzzle energy (1240 squared / 1100 squared). 1100 is only almost supersonic, while 1240 really is, if only barely. You'd have to get into that whole argument about whether the supersonic ballistic pressure wave really causes more damage - I think it does, but a whole lot of people disagree, and I've not whacked enough guys to say for sure if I'm right.

The WFNGC 200 gr bullets are cast by DT not Beartooth. A few years ago DT bought Coal Creek Casting and they make their own hardcast bullets. You can purchase DT hardcast bullets separately. The meplat on the 200 gr DT WFNGC is .32 inches and the Beartooth is .31 inches. Also Beartooth does not make a 230 gr WFNGC. The BHN of the Beartooth and DT bullets is the same, 21 BHN. I mentioned that you can purchase the DT hardcast bullets separately if you want to load your own. I don't know if you can improve on the ballistics but you should be able to load cheaper ammo. As for the velocity difference between the 40 and 10mm using the 200 gr WFNGC the wound channel will not be that much different. However the depth of the wound would be deeper with the 10mm. On a BG the difference is moot, on a 4 legged animal bent on lowering your standing on the food chain the 10mm/230 gr would be my choice. Hickok45 has shown that the 230 gr WFNGC is not very accurate in a factory Glock barrel but does well in an aftermarket barrel. I am not sure if the same is true with the 200 gr 40 cal version. I haven't had a chance to get to the range yet.

Ogie
10-29-2010, 21:29
As for the velocity difference between the 40 and 10mm using the 200 gr WFNGC the wound channel will not be that much different. However the depth of the wound would be deeper with the 10mm. On a BG the difference is moot, on a 4 legged animal bent on lowering your standing on the food chain the 10mm/230 gr would be my choice.

Quoting slightly out of context, but this is exactly my point that 140 fps doesn't make any practical difference in a self defense situation against a two legged BG. The permanent crush cavity will be almost identical and this holds true for most if not all pistol rounds from .38 spec./9mm to .45 caliber.

NonPCnraRN
10-30-2010, 01:42
Will 140 fps make any difference? To answer this I will speak in terms of hardcast WFN bullets that do not expand. This is for illustration purposes only as I believe most forum members use expanding bullets. I am old school and if a WFN bullet design works in a Ruger Blackhawk I figure it can work in a Glock. Take the DT 200 gr WFN bullet at 1100 fps in 40 cal and 1240 fps for the same bullet in 10mm. The Beartooth formula for permanent wound diameter for nonexpanding bullets is based on the meplat diameter (.32 inches) times the impact velocity. Marshall Stanton provides this formula to determine how various Beartooth hardcast bullets will perform. The formula has been validated by the results actually seen on game animals vs the predicted wound size. Since we don't know what the impact velocity is going to be I will use the muzzle velocity since the goal is to show what difference 140 fps will make in wound diameter. The permanent wound diameter for a bullet with a .32" meplat at 1100 fps is 0.88 inches. The permanent wound diameter for the same meplat at 1240 fps is 0.992 inches. 0.88 inches vs 0.992 inches. Not much difference in diameter. The 10 mm round may penetrate deeper which would be beneficial in certain circumstances but against a BG the extra penetration is wasted. If you punch a 0.88 inch hole through a guy's sternum and out his spine, will increasing the hole to .0992 inches change the outcome? I think not as both wound diameters are double original caliber size. As I said this formula does not apply to expanding bullets, either HP, soft point jacketed or swaged soft lead. If 140 fps is the threshold between a jacketed bullet expanding or not then I would think it is important. With hardcast WFN bullets 140 fps will only slightly increase wound diameter and penetration. The whole point of this exercise was to give actual measurements to the original question. Whether or not that info is of any use to anyone is another matter altogether.