Considering professional conversion Saiga 12... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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mdfd
10-28-2010, 19:53
any insight or advice?

I already have a Mossberg 590 20" that I love and am quite proficient with.

However, I am really interested in a semi-auto 12g such as the Saiga 12 as converted by Red Jacket, Tromix, and the like. I like it mainly for a fun toy but can see using it for HD if it proves reliable. I'm not interested in doing the conversion and parts myself, rather looking to the experts to provide a fully converted and tuned Saiga 12, ready to go.

Anyone have any experience, good or bad, with these "professionally converted/tuned" S12's? Which one and what are your thoughts?

TIA!

NRA_guy
10-28-2010, 19:59
No, but I am considering a converted Saiga 12 as well.

Just want to track this thread.

mdfd
10-28-2010, 20:16
No, but I am considering a converted Saiga 12 as well.

Just want to track this thread.

any particular one in mind? What features are important to you?

For me, I like the compact ability of the folding stock, no more than 19" barrel, HK style sights, perhaps 10 rnd mags (12 rnd one look a bit too long for me), and perhaps a 20 rnd drum. All in a tuned, reliability package of course...

I think alot of the ones I have seen perform unreliably out there are ones that folks have converted themselves...not to say that there aren't some really good and reliable ones that have been converted by individuals....

this just looks like fun!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB1o2isrCDI&feature=player_embedded#!

MadMonkey
10-28-2010, 20:25
I'm going to pick one up eventually, maybe with my tax rebate next year. Really looking at the Tromix offerings...

mdfd
10-28-2010, 20:28
I'm going to pick one up eventually, maybe with my tax rebate next year. Really looking at the Tromix offerings...

any particular reason why Tromix as opposed to other brands? Just really starting to learn about all the different ones available and what differentiates one from the other....

MadMonkey
10-28-2010, 20:34
any particular reason why Tromix as opposed to other brands? Just really starting to learn about all the different ones available and what differentiates one from the other....

I haven't really dug too deep since it will be a bit until I buy one, but I've heard nothing but good from everyone who has a Tromix conversion. Some of the others were hit and miss, but I couldn't give you any details until I really dig.

Victoriagotagun
10-28-2010, 20:43
If your thinking about any of the custom makers...make sure you factor in build times. For instance, Tony at Tromix isn't accepting new orders until the beginning of next year.

mobilecommand
10-28-2010, 22:19
I got mine done from Arizona armory..

He is one of the Top 2 Saiga Guys in AZ and he is well worth it.

Just something to think about.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mobilecommand/5088161998/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mobilecommand/5087563801/

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4113/5087563041_ec250c7ee1.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4150/5068667442_1a0afceeb1.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4151/5068667386_c3d914461e.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4145/5068667312_1624a4e9f4.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4104/5068667288_43c3fd201a.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4124/5068058499_2e469eb7f6.jpg

ScrappyDoo
10-29-2010, 13:36
What ia it that you're converting on a Saiga 12?

I understand on a 7.62 you're changing the receiver to take different mags, a different stock, a pistol grip, a new trigger group, etc...

What is it on the 12, I have long wondered?

Thanks

WoodenPlank
10-29-2010, 14:45
What ia it that you're converting on a Saiga 12?

I understand on a 7.62 you're changing the receiver to take different mags, a different stock, a pistol grip, a new trigger group, etc...

What is it on the 12, I have long wondered?

Thanks

All the new ones coming into the country have a standard rifle style stock, and the trigger pack is farther back as a result. People get it converted to use a standard AK/Saiga style stock, and move the trigger pack forward to where it normally should be, then add a standard pistol grip.

I have been interested in getting one, myself, mainly as a fun range toy.

rjrivero
10-29-2010, 15:34
A simple trigger relocation/pistol grip conversion is nothing hard to do. For about $150 you can get all the parts you need from any number of online vendors. With a punch and a couple of 2x4's you can convert it in your living room.

However, if you're going to use this shotgun for 3 gun, using a lot of birdshot for knocking down steel, then you want to make sure the gun cycles with the low brass loads. This will require polishing and smoothing the bolt and rails. It may require working the gas port system. All of this can be done with hand tools, but these changes may be worth having a custom house do the work for you.

The benefit of going with a custom house to work over the saiga-12 is that they will MAKE SURE it functions. They will shape and polish the bolt so you can easily load a magazine into the shot gun with the bolt closed. They will work over the gas ports in the barrel and the gas block to make sure the gun is getting enough gas to cycle Federal bulk birdshot. (Which is the MINIMUM bulk round that is consistent and reliable in these guns.*)

That brings us to magazines. There are 2 mag makers out there that have the lions share of Saiga aftermarket mags. AGP and Surefire. There is another manufacturer but by all accounts, their crap stinks.

There are also drums available for the Saiga-12. MD Arms makes a 20 round drum that runs well and is recommended by most saiga owners.

There are also mag indexing devices out there that help speed reloads. (If it's necessary for whatever you decide to build the gun for.) One is the "rock and lock" which is just a ramped piece of aluminum that acts to help align the mag and index it into the mag well. The other system are the MAG WELLS. They help you slam a mag home much like you would in using an AR type rifle. You place the mag well, and then grind one of the tabs off the front of the magazine so you no longer have to index and rock the mag in place. This makes mag changes faster and less fumble prone, but the magazines could no longer be used without the mag well, and the other draw back is that the drums will not work with mag wells.

Barrel devices are vast and varied. I prefer a PolyChoke on mine, so I can use it to go from extra full to cylinder with a simple twist of the choke. Not as Tactical, but functional.

Then you have the forearm. There are different rail systems available for the saiga, and a lot of different forearms available. The choices are huge. Again, you need to decide what you want to do with the gun before you decide what you want on the gun.

You NEED to know what you want before you decide to order a custom Saiga. There are just TOO many different bits and pieces available and too many directions you can take with a saiga build.

I've converted 2 of them. One is mine, one is my brothers. They are pretty similar in build. We use them for 3 gun, and they NEED to cycle the Federal Bulk Birdshot 100%. It took quite a bit of tweaking to get these guns to cycle reliably with low-brass, but once they were finished, I couldn't believe how much fun they are to run.

Tromix has all the work they can handle for this year,and there is good reason for that. There are also a lot of other saiga custom houses that do good work too. Cadiz Gun works does all the warranty work for Arsenal and they know their way around a saiga. Lonestar is an up and coming shop that also does fantastic work, from what I've seen around. There is also R&R that specializes in race guns.

mdfd
10-29-2010, 16:51
good informative post rj!
I want a professionally converted and tuned S12 so I can run whatever loads I want and not worry about any issues. Although it would be mostly for fun/sporting I want to know I can trust it for HD as well.
To try an save a little $$$, I was hoping to find a lightly used one. The 2 that was for sale, although it seems to run flawlessly, seemed to me like it was a DIY job not from any of the well-knowned outfits....I could be wrong...

The other thing about getting it converted also as I understand it is the whole issue of 922(r) compliance correct?

rjrivero
10-29-2010, 17:00
good informative post rj!
I want a professionally converted and tuned S12 so I can run whatever loads I want and not worry about any issues. Although it would be mostly for fun/sporting I want to know I can trust it for HD as well.
To try an save a little $$$, I was hoping to find a lightly used one. The 2 that was for sale, although it seems to run flawlessly, seemed to me like it was a DIY job not from any of the well-knowned outfits....I could be wrong...

The other thing about getting it converted also as I understand it is the whole issue of 922(r) compliance correct?
The one that was converted was indeed a DIY conversion done by a guy who has built and sold many Saigas in the past.

You will need to switch the gas block selector to the appropriate level for the loads you are shooting. The standard gas plug has 2 positions, and aftermarket gas plugs can have as many as 4. There is one gas plug that is "auto regulating" and will bleed off extra gas pressure for guns that go from birdshot to slugs.

There is one in the saiga forum thats converted by Red Jacket for sale that meets your "Lightly used" requirement. You'll see that the price is a bit higher than the DIY jobs. But they come up for sale from time to time. Just keep looking. ;)

A converted gun will meet 922(r) compliance with ease.

mdfd
10-29-2010, 17:35
hey rj - you've got a PM!

CBennett
11-01-2010, 09:22
any insight or advice?

I already have a Mossberg 590 20" that I love and am quite proficient with.

However, I am really interested in a semi-auto 12g such as the Saiga 12 as converted by Red Jacket, Tromix, and the like. I like it mainly for a fun toy but can see using it for HD if it proves reliable. I'm not interested in doing the conversion and parts myself, rather looking to the experts to provide a fully converted and tuned Saiga 12, ready to go.

Anyone have any experience, good or bad, with these "professionally converted/tuned" S12's? Which one and what are your thoughts?

TIA!

Yes, get it done..lots of people chime in on how "easy" it is to convert..id not even attempt it..just too $$$ a piece to accidentally mess up..drill holes wrong or a bit off center or what ever. Ive heard both places you mentioned were good. One of the local 3 gun competitors used the Red Jacket place he runs his in 3 gun(open division i think he called it I dont do gun games so im not sure, they just dont interest me) with a red dot /holo type site and a 20 round drum mag he says its very reliable and its not let him down in competition...only thing he said was awkward with the drum was the weight and swing through..but he said no jams..

DarkBlade1000RR
11-01-2010, 10:55
I just received mine from Peach State Guns.....appears everything looks great!...again just received it today so no range write up yet. I went w/ them as apposed to Tromix and other mfg's due to price and for what PSG offererd on the rifle...Tromix was way $$$$$ and from what everything PSG's were going to do...it just seemed more reasonable.

mdfd
11-01-2010, 11:26
I just received mine from Peach State Guns.....appears everything looks great!...again just received it today so no range write up yet. I went w/ them as apposed to Tromix and other mfg's due to price and for what PSG offererd on the rifle...Tromix was way $$$$$ and from what everything PSG's were going to do...it just seemed more reasonable.

very nice - if you don't mind, which one did you get, specs? price? link?
I agree with the prices on some of the others - I got a little sticker shock as I was doing my research....

ChuteTheMall
11-01-2010, 11:38
To get a S12 the way I want it would be very expensive (folding stock, professionally converted by reputable firm, warranty, etc) but it's still on my wish list.:cool:

DarkBlade1000RR
11-01-2010, 14:52
I purchased this one:

http://shop.peachstateguns.com/product.sc;jsessionid=DC16B449BDCC97FD07816ECA85BE8C75.qscstrfrnt01?productId=644&categoryId=67

Give them a call and ask to speak w/ Adam.....great communication and assistance in answering all my questions!

I priced out doing it myself and w/ PSG's...and it about was even on the expense...plus they do a bit of extra's w/ it....read the specifications for details. They do take 4-6 weeks to build...but well worth it! Good luck!!

very nice - if you don't mind, which one did you get, specs? price? link?
I agree with the prices on some of the others - I got a little sticker shock as I was doing my research....

TwentyNizzo
11-01-2010, 15:23
My Saiga has never even thought of malfunctioning with any high brass load, always on the low gas setting (2). I do get occasional FTEs with birdshot walmart value pack. But, as far as I know the Saiga was not intended to run on weak birdshot. So I guess it's like a Gen4 glock in that regard.

Reswob
11-02-2010, 16:59
Are there any companies out there who will do the conversion correctly (using appropriate AK-1xx furniture)? All I've seen is Crapco'd out junk.

mdfd
11-02-2010, 18:50
My Saiga has never even thought of malfunctioning with any high brass load, always on the low gas setting (2). I do get occasional FTEs with birdshot walmart value pack. But, as far as I know the Saiga was not intended to run on weak birdshot. So I guess it's like a Gen4 glock in that regard.

yup, problem is the shoots around here won't let you use anything but 7.5-9 shot for practice drills....

Silverhawk500
11-04-2010, 01:52
mdfd: I thought about getting one done by one of the companies, but wait time, money seemed excessive. For as inexpensive the saiga and parts are I decided to do it my self. Spoke to Greg from carolina shooters supplies and he helped make sure that it was set up and 922R compliant. I am not a gun smith, nor a mechanic, etc. He has videos on you-tube and it was simple. Tromix Trigger group, tapko t-6 m-4 stock and forend, phantom flash/door breacher, saw grip, single point sling, 5, 12,20 rd mags. It has shot everything except 1 low brass rd that was 20 yrs old (mohawk). I need to put the light on it, fore grip, red dot. When I first read the instructions, I wondered what I got myself into, but watch the videos and you will see how easy and logical it is. As for damage- you are drilling the heads off rivets than drilling a bigger hole!! I did not use a drill press. I am going to do a few more for fun!! I may be putting my law -12 up for sale. It has been informal shooting so far, but will be setting up my standard course of fire , but now I have 3 more rounds. Whatever you do have FUN!!!! Be Safe.

mdfd
11-04-2010, 10:08
thanks Silver, I have thought about doing the conversion myself many times. I am fairly mechanical and have watched all the videos. The only thing I am somewhat skeptical about is the polishing and tuning piece to make it as reliable on all loads as I would expect from a professionally converted one. I think that piece requires experience...

I'm on the fence between doing one myself and getting a pro-converted one. Here's what is pushing me towards a pro-converted one....
I could be wrong, but in adding up all the parts necessary for the conversion and 922 compliance, the total seemed to be close to what you are paying for the pro's to do it +/- a few hundred $'s correct? Plus if it doesn't work right, you always have the option of warranty work...
I have also wondered what the resale of these converted S12's are (not that I have ever sold any of my guns yet - knock on wood). I would imagine that the DIY converted ones are about as hard to sell as any other personally modified firearm tend to be. Would the professionally converted ones have better resale?

DarkBlade1000RR
11-04-2010, 11:29
You hit the nail on the head w/ this one sir......exactly the reasons why I went and purchased a "Pro-converted" Saiga 12.......

Not sure about the resale but it's nice to say "professional converted by......." :cool:

thanks Silver, I have thought about doing the conversion myself many times. I am fairly mechanical and have watched all the videos. The only thing I am somewhat skeptical about is the polishing and tuning piece to make it as reliable on all loads as I would expect from a professionally converted one. I think that piece requires experience...

I'm on the fence between doing one myself and getting a pro-converted one. Here's what is pushing me towards a pro-converted one....
I could be wrong, but in adding up all the parts necessary for the conversion and 922 compliance, the total seemed to be close to what you are paying for the pro's to do it +/- a few hundred $'s correct? Plus if it doesn't work right, you always have the option of warranty work...
I have also wondered what the resale of these converted S12's are (not that I have ever sold any of my guns yet - knock on wood). I would imagine that the DIY converted ones are about as hard to sell as any other personally modified firearm tend to be. Would the professionally converted ones have better resale?

1 old 0311
11-04-2010, 11:40
So these are not unlike the 1911's? Great guns BUT if you want them to work you MUST have them modified? I prefer to buy a product that doesn't say "SOME ASSEMBLY REQUIRED.":crying:

mdfd
11-04-2010, 11:53
So these are not unlike the 1911's? Great guns BUT if you want them to work you MUST have them modified? I prefer to buy a product that doesn't say "SOME ASSEMBLY REQUIRED.":crying:

no not really like that...

They work just fine but with them being imported and the legal crap surrounding it, one must "modify" to make it compliant if you want to use different, higher capacity mags.

As for being able to run it on birdshot, these are fighting guns, and were orignially meant for the hotter/heavier loads other than birdshot....

I ran a timed shotgun course with my Mossberg 590 pump just for fun. I don't spend alot of trigger time w/ my 590, but I was able to place in the top 10 for the day. The ones that beat me were folks with obviously alot more training/trigger time w/ their pumps or others with S12's. I was pleasantly surprised that my times were comparable to some of the guys with the tube-fed semi-auto Benelli's and such...perhaps I was just in better shape and pretty much ran to the next stations lol...

And for the record I have a first gen Kimber Custom Classic (Clackamas) 1911 that has not been modified and runs 100%....

Kwesi
11-07-2010, 14:51
I converted my S12 with a buddy and neither of us are particularly handy but we got it done. The fire control group option really improved the trigger pull. I added a "Limb Saver" folding stock that really does absorb things pretty well.

There are now, I believe, two good gas plug options. I also believe this is the key to your S12 running the cheap and full power loads. Polishing of course will help but I didn't.

Tune the gas plug to the right setting and you should be fine. I have the MD20 round drum and it works great + Surefire 10 round mags.

There is also a real nice barrel shroud to dress it up if your interested.

cricketdave
11-09-2010, 18:03
hi, i converted my saiga on my own, i had a spare ak stock and saw grip from a old ak i had switched over to a folder and got the tromix trigger guard and tromix trigger group from carolina shooters. i also polished everything inside and contoured the bottom of the bolt it was all easy and straight forward. cost was 469 for the gun 99 bucks for the parts. add a couple of agp mags for 30 each and i'll pick up a drum when i have the extra money.

its a fun shooter and very fast this is running it with federal birdshot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM94mHbyKvI
take it easy
cricket

glockenturm
11-12-2010, 04:24
Check this site out......

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?

The definitive Saiga site....