Guess I'll buy a manual.. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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FiremanMike
11-04-2010, 17:56
<gasp> You've been reloading for over a year without a manual?!.. I haven't really needed one, all the information is available on the internet via various reputable websites. I guess I'm getting one now because I feel like I should have one.

Recommend me a decent one that gives a wide variety of load data..

GioaJack
11-04-2010, 18:01
If you shoot a lot of lead the only one to get is pretty much Lyman. Can't help with jacketed stuff... guns weren't meant to shoot those. :supergrin:


Jack

njl
11-04-2010, 18:04
If you've already been loading without one, and don't load/plan to load a wide range of different calibers, I wonder if loadbooks for the calibers you do load would make more sense. You'll get a lot more data that way.

FiremanMike
11-04-2010, 18:11
<shrug> I load 9mm and 223, might end up with a Glock 21sf at some point in the future so I will need 45 loads. Probably not worth it at that point..

I do only load jacketed, I'm too much of a wuss to undertake lead smelting lol..

IndyGunFreak
11-04-2010, 18:18
Lyman 49th... If you just want load data, and nothing else(and I mean nothing else)... the Loadbooks in your chosen caliber are cheap and full of info. I've generally found it lined up well w/ my Lyman, save a few loads here and there.

ron59
11-04-2010, 18:21
I think the "loadbooks" njl mentioned are the best deals. They basically take the information from all the powder/bullet manufacturers and put it in one place.

I have the one for 9mm...

But like you? Honestly, I get my info off the web as well. I never take load data from ONE source, but cross check and verify from several. Start low and work up, that's why the chrony is a great investment.

fredj338
11-04-2010, 18:21
Lyman 49th... If you just want load data, and nothing else(and I mean nothing else)... the Loadbooks in your chosen caliber are cheap and full of info. I've generally found it lined up well w/ my Lyman, save a few loads here and there.

IMO, loading w/o several manuals is just limiting yourself. The online data from powder manuf is ok, if you use that powder & some, like Alliant, only give max. Having two good manuals & then cross checking w/ powder manuf is more telling. The Lyman #49 is very good, especially for lead bullets & the Speer #14. Both have many good, but not all powder choices & a good cross section of bullet styles & wts.

Jim B in CO
11-04-2010, 20:13
I remember standing in Sportsman's Warehouse debating if I really wanted to spend the money to buy the Hornady manual. :rofl: I use it all the time when I'm reloading; I can't imagine not having it in the drawer of my reloading bench. It's only a little more money than a box of bullets - don't be so cheap! :supergrin:

I bought the Hornady and Sierra manuals because those are the two brands of bullets I shoot the most. (They seem to be less-expensive than some of the other brands.) I bought the Lee manual when I was just learning how to reload. It's great for getting the basics down (you sound like you're well beyond that). Now that I've been reloading for a while I never use the Lee manual.

FLSlim
11-04-2010, 20:19
The other advantage of reloading manuals (over powder manufacturer's sites on the internet and loadbooks) is that the manuals do contain a lot of information regarding reloading, in general, that a person fairly new to the game should find useful.

ColdShot
11-05-2010, 05:18
I dont own a manual......old timers try to guilt that book reading stuff on ya LOL

For handgun loads I look to the internet and powder MFGs...

MrOldLude
11-05-2010, 08:45
I don't need a load book, but sometimes, it's nice to have a reference.

Zombie Steve
11-05-2010, 09:47
Big thumbs up for Lyman 49 - lots of lead data, and I've found their results closest to my own.

Hornady - A great intro to reloading, info on chamber pressure and headspace at the beginning of the book. Pretty optimistic and conservative data, though IMHO. One big plus is they have Service rifle data for M14's and M1 Garands.

Speer - My #2 go-to book. No complaints there.

Sierra - Ok, but drives me nuts with their test guns. They are always showing you data from their 26" barrel rifle. Other than varmint guns, where do you ever see a 26" barrel? Point being, take it with a grain of salt. If you're loading for a 4" .44 mag, I guarantee they will be testing in a 7-1/2" bbl gun. Lyman seems to use the most common length barrels across the board.

dudel
11-05-2010, 11:09
As others have mentioned, Loadbooks. I find them very handy when I need to extrapolate data for a odd projectile. It's a single, inexpensive, convenient source of reloading data. You won't find a word on technique; just load data.

fredj338
11-05-2010, 12:08
As others have mentioned, Loadbooks. I find them very handy when I need to extrapolate data for a odd projectile. It's a single, inexpensive, convenient source of reloading data. You won't find a word on technique; just load data.
Exactly why the internet & powder manuf data are of marginal use. If you aren't using at least one good manual, you really are handicapping yourself. Then again, if you only load one caliber w/ one bullet wt, you could probably get by w/ WTF, just fill the case & go.:upeyes:

FLSlim
11-05-2010, 13:23
I'm just to old (or maybe I'm not old enough yet....) for loading up with WTF. I get a certain level of comfort in having some idea of what is going to happen when I pull the trigger. Kind of like staying with my wife all these years (for you GJack). Time/experience has taught me, what to do to avoid the most severe marital consequences (although I still risk kabooms because there isn't a decent manual).

fredj338
11-05-2010, 13:46
I'm just to old (or maybe I'm not old enough yet....) for loading up with WTF. I get a certain level of comfort in having some idea of what is going to happen when I pull the trigger. Kind of like staying with my wife all these years (for you GJack). Time/experience has taught me, what to do to avoid the most severe marital consequences (although I still risk kabooms because there isn't a decent manual).
HA! Divorce, the ultimate KB!:burn:

GioaJack
11-05-2010, 13:49
HA! Divorce, the ultimate KB!:burn:


Not all KB's are catastrophic... just gives you an excuse to go out and try a new model. :whistling:


Jack

fredj338
11-05-2010, 13:57
Not all KB's are catastrophic... just gives you an excuse to go out and try a new model. :whistling:

Jack
Yeah, but then you have to learn all the idiosyncrasies of the new model. Can be quite frustrating.:crying: Probably why I still love the old 1911 design; I know it well, know how to make it work for me, does what I ask of it & does it well. Changing just for the sake of changing, wait a minute, that's how we got OBAMA! MF CHANGE!:steamed:

GioaJack
11-05-2010, 14:04
Yeah, but then you have to learn all the idiosyncrasies of the new model. Can be quite frustrating.:crying: Probably why I still love the old 1911 design; I know it well, know how to make it work for me, does what I ask of it & does it well. Changing just for the sake of changing, wait a minute, that's how we got OBAMA! MF CHANGE!:steamed:


Fred, you need to expand your horizons, guns aren't the only thing you can get 'new models' of.

And as far as frustrations when learning the 'idiosyncrasies' of a new model... being Italian I've never suffered from that malady that effects you lesser men. :whistling:


Jack

fredj338
11-05-2010, 16:18
Fred, you need to expand your horizons, guns aren't the only thing you can get 'new models' of.

And as far as frustrations when learning the 'idiosyncrasies' of a new model... being Italian I've never suffered from that malady that effects you lesser men. :whistling:


Jack
Being of Germany decent, I bow to your wisdom, at least when it comes to women.:tongueout:

dudel
11-05-2010, 16:46
Then again, if you only load one caliber w/ one bullet wt, you could probably get by w/ WTF, just fill the case & go.:upeyes:


Sure. As long as they Just let me know, cause I don't want to be near them. :supergrin:

dla
11-05-2010, 16:58
<gasp> You've been reloading for over a year without a manual?!.. I haven't really needed one, all the information is available on the internet via various reputable websites. I guess I'm getting one now because I feel like I should have one.

Recommend me a decent one that gives a wide variety of load data..

Use the Internet. Manuals suck.

fredj338
11-05-2010, 19:09
Use the Internet. Manuals suck.
Spoken like one who has one or maybe none? There are very few reputable on line sources for pressure tested data. Not to mention, my computer is not on my loading bench. Good, current manuals are very useful.

Zombie Steve
11-05-2010, 20:20
Use the Internet. Manuals suck.

That because it resembles a book?

dudel
11-06-2010, 05:50
Use the Internet. Manuals suck.

You must have the wrong books. None of mine make that noise.

Manuals tend to be a source or reviewed and edited data. Consider one of Fred's recent posts (and for the record, none of us are great typists). Fred mentioned a 1224 grain projectile. Some newb may be out there looking or such a beast (after all, Fred uses it). That's an easy typo to catch. What about 4.6 or 5.6 grains of a very fast powder in a small case? Which one is it? In a manual, those tend to get caught by proofers. (FWIW, I don't recall ever seeing a load error in a manual - I guess the lawyers went over it as well). Personally, that why I never specify the charge weight in my posts. I just don't trust my typing to be error free. Besides, what works for me, might not work for you.

There's something about assuming liability that tends to make vendors careful when they put something in writing. Less so on the internet. People post whatever crazy load they want, and some newb will try it. No idea of overpressure signs, velocities, ES, SD, etc. Mostly pure junk. I'm sure there's a good load out there amid the trash; but why spend time looking for it when there are other, better sources?

But hey, experienced loaders are suggesting books; and you know better. Take all the savings you get from reloading and buy a book. It will cost less than 100 primers or 100 projectiles or one pound of powder. Sounds like a good investment to me.

GioaJack
11-06-2010, 10:15
It will cost less than 100 primers


Are you using those gold primers again? :dunno:

(Did someone say something about typos on the internet?)


Jack

dudel
11-06-2010, 18:32
It will cost less than 100 primers


Are you using those gold primers again? :dunno:

(Did someone say something about typos on the internet?)


Jack

Well, there were those gun show primers.......

Give it time, you'll need a second mortgage for 100 primers. Stock up now.

But of course you are correct. Typos are everywhere. What if that have been part of some load data. You get the point. Loadbooks are under $10; so make that less than 300 primers. A full manual is about $30, so let's call it about 1000 primers.

Primers, the new monetary unit. I like it.

fredj338
11-06-2010, 23:18
But hey, experienced loaders are suggesting books; and you know better. Take all the savings you get from reloading and buy a book. It will cost less than 100 primers or 100 projectiles or one pound of powder. Sounds like a good investment to me.
To elaborate. Not to pick on OkieGun, but the internet is also full of stuff that shouldn't be done by an novice reloader & sometimes even so called experts. Just because it's on the internet, doesn't mke it true. The published data has presure testing & lawyers behind it, I or others do not. While I may be 100% confident in my data in my guns, I am the one putting it together. I can assume zero responsability for how someone else puts it together.
The on line powder manuf sites are great places to cross ref but limited in bullet choices. & some only give max data (Alliant). A Lyman #49 can be had in paper back for $20, the Speer #14 not much more. Cheap insurance for sure. Besides, what are ya gonna do when the power is out & you need to load up for the Zombie attack?:tongueout:

dudel
11-07-2010, 02:50
To elaborate. Not to pick on OkieGun, but the internet is also full of stuff that shouldn't be done by an novice reloader & sometimes even so called experts. Just because it's on the internet, doesn't mke it true. The published data has presure testing & lawyers behind it, I or others do not. While I may be 100% confident in my data in my guns, I am the one putting it together. I can assume zero responsability for how someone else puts it together.
The on line powder manuf sites are great places to cross ref but limited in bullet choices. & some only give max data (Alliant). A Lyman #49 can be had in paper back for $20, the Speer #14 not much more. Cheap insurance for sure. Besides, what are ya gonna do when the power is out & you need to load up for the Zombie attack?:tongueout:


+1 Fred. How many people would take a reload from someone they don't know. (A recent thread, remember?).

So you won't take a reloaded round from someone you don't know; but you'd take load data from someone you don't know. What's the difference? That's crazy.

dla
11-07-2010, 09:39
I can spend 20 minutes on the net and cross-reference data from a half-dozen sources. Every powder manufacturer has data online and they all pressure-test their work.

Of course you have to be online-savvy enough to work through the one-tooth Billy-Bob data "I don't own a chronograph but my 44mag load is in the +p+p range and is safe in an SRH" - and if you're not able to weigh the relative values of Hodgdon versus Billy-Bob data then you probably should go buy a book.

There's a reason why I say "they suck" - they do. If you already own them - fine. I think the load data card shipped with a set of Lee dies is better than any manual.

dudel
11-07-2010, 11:12
I can spend 20 minutes on the net and cross-reference data from a half-dozen sources. Every powder manufacturer has data online and they all pressure-test their work. .

Right there is your answer. It takes you 20 minutes; it takes me less than 5 minutes with a Loadbook.

fredj338
11-07-2010, 16:04
+1 Fred. How many people would take a reload from someone they don't know. (A recent thread, remember?).

So you won't take a reloaded round from someone you don't know; but you'd take load data from someone you don't know. What's the difference? That's crazy.

Very good point!
I can spend 20 minutes on the net and cross-reference data from a half-dozen sources. Every powder manufacturer has data online and they all pressure-test their work.
Yes, but not all are extensive. Alliant post max only. Hodgon has limited bullet types. Again, my computer is not on my bench. Naything BUT a pressure tested source on line is rolling the dice, like coming here & asking for a load. You can load the way you want, but to tell othes they suck, nah, just a wee bit narrow. Reading is still fundamental.
There's a reason why I say "they suck" - they do. If you already own them - fine. I think the load data card shipped with a set of Lee dies is better than any manual.
Ok, I am still laughing about this one. Now don't be offended, but I have to ask you; how long have you been reloading & how many calibers do you load for? The Lee data card comes right out of their manual & I think the Lee manual is one of the poorest of the lot.

dla
11-07-2010, 18:16
Very good point!

Yes, but not all are extensive. Alliant post max only. Hodgon has limited bullet types. Again, my computer is not on my bench. Naything BUT a pressure tested source on line is rolling the dice, like coming here & asking for a load. You can load the way you want, but to tell othes they suck, nah, just a wee bit narrow. Reading is still fundamental.

Ok, I am still laughing about this one. Now don't be offended, but I have to ask you; how long have you been reloading & how many calibers do you load for? The Lee data card comes right out of their manual & I think the Lee manual is one of the poorest of the lot.

Since 1972. 4 rifles, 3 pistols. But honestly, what does that have to do with anything?

When I started, I relied on manuals. Times have changed.

fredj338
11-07-2010, 21:43
Since 1972. 4 rifles, 3 pistols. But honestly, what does that have to do with anything?

When I started, I relied on manuals. Times have changed.
It matters only in that a guy that loads for one or two caliber doesn't really need much in the way of data, especially after 30yrs. They get a load, they use that, done. SOmeone that loads for many diff caliber, like me, 22+ at the moment, manuals have value. FWIW, times haven't change that much just attitudes. Everyone thinks they can find everything on the net, maybe, if you spend a lot of time looking & sifting through the BS. Published data is a vetted, a reliable source. The best place still today for valid information, especially for newbs IMO.

garander
11-08-2010, 05:59
i started loadin in the seventies and have only had two manuals until last week i bought the hornady seventh edition. it's kind of dissapointing.
last year i bought hodgdon's magazine at the grocery store. it has many more powder type's and many more bullet style's than the manual. plus the pressure each load generates

fredj338
11-08-2010, 09:37
i started loadin in the seventies and have only had two manuals until last week i bought the hornady seventh edition. it's kind of dissapointing.
last year i bought hodgdon's magazine at the grocery store. it has many more powder type's and many more bullet style's than the manual. plus the pressure each load generates

I have been loading since the 70s as well. What I found out about old manuals, old manuals are for old powders. I keep them, use them if I run across something no longer made, but a new manual will have much of the data, not all, brought current w/ new powders & bullets. I have also learned that the Lyman & SPeer seem to cover the greatest spread of bullets & powders. It's what I recommend to newbs or old guys replacing their old manuals.:supergrin:

garander
11-08-2010, 13:14
yes i'm going to by the lyman manual next time i hit the gun store! everyone says it has the most stuff in it

Jerry
11-08-2010, 16:24
You must have the wrong books. None of mine make that noise.

Manuals tend to be a source or reviewed and edited data. Consider one of Fred's recent posts (and for the record, none of us are great typists). Fred mentioned a 1224 grain projectile. Some newb may be out there looking or such a beast (after all, Fred uses it). That's an easy typo to catch. What about 4.6 or 5.6 grains of a very fast powder in a small case? Which one is it? In a manual, those tend to get caught by proofers. (FWIW, I don't recall ever seeing a load error in a manual - I guess the lawyers went over it as well). Personally, that why I never specify the charge weight in my posts. I just don't trust my typing to be error free. Besides, what works for me, might not work for you.

There's something about assuming liability that tends to make vendors careful when they put something in writing. Less so on the internet. People post whatever crazy load they want, and some newb will try it. No idea of overpressure signs, velocities, ES, SD, etc. Mostly pure junk. I'm sure there's a good load out there amid the trash; but why spend time looking for it when there are other, better sources?

But hey, experienced loaders are suggesting books; and you know better. Take all the savings you get from reloading and buy a book. It will cost less than 100 primers or 100 projectiles or one pound of powder. Sounds like a good investment to me.

Hereís a good one. My Lyman49 manual recommends (this is off the top of my head and not the exact load) "Specifically" for 45/70 Marlin lever gun 300 gr. bullet IMR 4198 at 36 to 40 gr. Below is the load straight off Hodgdonís site "Specifically" for lever guns.

300 GR. SIE HP IMR IMR 4198 .458" 2.525" 53.7 2293 33,100 CUP 57.2 2407 39,100 CUP
300 GR. SIE HP Hodgdon H4198 .458" 2.525" 55.0 2221 27,600 CUP 60.0 2424 40,000 CUP

I loaded 37 gr. of H4198 and I donít want to be on the back end of my Marlin 1895 with 55 or 60 grs. of that stuff. Iíve shot Hornady 325 gr. Leverevilution and my loads with 37 gr. of H4198 feel and shoot pretty much the same. 55 gr. of H4198 has to be brutal. Iím reasonably sure it would be a compressed load. :wow:

glockaviator
11-11-2010, 18:35
I am aware of Hodgdon and Alliant websites. Any other powder mfgs have good websites?

Also, is there a list of powder by rate of burn somewhere? (and how to use it)

njl
11-11-2010, 18:36
Googling smokeless powder burn rate will find several tables of burn rates.

wavetrain75
11-11-2010, 19:13
Maybe I'm old. Actually I'm not really, but I'd rather have a printed copy that I can thumb through, be it reloading or an outboard motor.

I can find what I need quicker in the printed manual than on the intraweb, in most cases a lot quicker.

dla
11-11-2010, 20:00
Maybe I'm old. Actually I'm not really, but I'd rather have a printed copy that I can thumb through, be it reloading or an outboard motor.

I can find what I need quicker in the printed manual than on the intraweb, in most cases a lot quicker.

Actually you can only find what they chose to print.

The only good thing about a manual is for archiving old data - sometimes it is hard to find the old stuff on the net.