What makes your reloads accurate? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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wrx04
11-05-2010, 19:29
Can you make some rounds accurate and others not? I just went to an IDPA-type shoot the other day, and some of the guys were complaining that their reloads were the reason for their crappy shooting. Was this an excuse, or are there times when the rounds you make actually do suck and affect your shooting?

How do i make the most accurate reloads? (within the realm of reason). I'm pretty sure im not good enough for it to make a difference, but what do i know?:dunno:

XDRoX
11-05-2010, 19:52
Can you make some rounds accurate and others not? I just went to an IDPA-type shoot the other day, and some of the guys were complaining that their reloads were the reason for their crappy shooting. Was this an excuse, or are there times when the rounds you make actually do suck and affect your shooting?

How do i make the most accurate reloads? (within the realm of reason). I'm pretty sure im not good enough for it to make a difference, but what do i know?:dunno:

Sounds like an excuse.
Consistency is what you're looking for. So quality bullets (same size, weight, etc), consistent powder throw (same amount of powder in each case), brass that has been fired the same number of times and is the same brand.

But unless you're firing off a bench, I bet that most shooters would not notice a difference. I know I don't. But then again, I'm not the best shot:crying:

robin303
11-05-2010, 20:01
It's amazing how just .02 of powder can make a difference. I had one batch of reloads that did nothing but keyhole.

GioaJack
11-05-2010, 20:03
There's a saying in skeet and trap shooting... 'If you're on you can break 'em with pebbles'. At the distances IDPA events are shot at you probably couldn't do anything with a reload to keep from shooting a scoring hit. Even a squib load that just makes it out of the barrel would probably 'fall' onto most of the targets and a keyhole round is still semi-accurate out to 25 yards, just spreads your group and makes a neat looking hole.

If their guns aren't actually jamming and not allowing them to complete the stage pay careful attention the next time you see them shoot... you'll be able to figure out if it's the ammunition. :supergrin:


Jack

wrx04
11-05-2010, 20:09
Sounds like an excuse.
Consistency is what you're looking for. So quality bullets (same size, weight, etc), consistent powder throw (same amount of powder in each case), brass that has been fired the same number of times and is the same brand.

But unless you're firing off a bench, I bet that most shooters would not notice a difference. I know I don't. But then again, I'm not the best shot:crying:

I thought it sounded like an excuse too, but everyone was jamming up the guy who shot LIGHTS OUT about his shooting last week (when he used reloads). This guy was GOOD, lightning fast with tight groups. Just ridiculous.

wrx04
11-05-2010, 20:14
It's amazing how just .02 of powder can make a difference. I had one batch of reloads that did nothing but keyhole.

Some of my reloads have been doing that too. Does a keyhole just mean the round was loaded too weak?

DWARREN123
11-05-2010, 20:22
You can be more accurate with the correct powder and amount. A good sized bullet helps but sounds like they were just making excuses. :supergrin:

Boxerglocker
11-05-2010, 20:24
It can be an excuse, but it can have some bearing too... last year I had a load of 9mm LFP with Solo1000 that was just crap... very inaccurate beyond 7-10 yards hadn't had a chance to chrono or bench test it prior and being a local unsantioned match just went with it. Big mistake... will never do that again.

Zombie Steve
11-05-2010, 20:32
Well, if it's the reloads it's because of crummy load development on their part, crummy loading procedures on their part, or both.


Some of my reloads have been doing that too. Does a keyhole just mean the round was loaded too weak?


It means that the bullet isn't properly stabilized in flight, which could have to do with the rifling twist rate, bullet weight, undersized diameter bullets (?) or a combination... are we talking pistol here?

PCJim
11-05-2010, 20:34
It can be an excuse, but it can have some bearing too... last year I had a load of 9mm LFP with Solo1000 that was just crap... very inaccurate beyond 7-10 yards hadn't had a chance to chrono or bench test it prior and being a local unsantioned match just went with it. Big mistake... will never do that again.

This is correct, especially if there are poppers at distance. I've seen fellas expend a mag trying to knock them down at 15-18 yds. I'm not saying that it's always the load, but....

Some of my reloads have been doing that too. Does a keyhole just mean the round was loaded too weak?

Not necessarily. It means the bullet was not able to stabilize, thus tumbling instead of spinning. If you're competing in IDPA and you're a good salesman, you might be able to convince someone else that your keyhole is actually two bullet holes. Just make sure the stage is not limited Vickers or that someone is counting your shots. :cool:

wrx04
11-05-2010, 20:48
Well, if it's the reloads it's because of crummy load development on their part, crummy loading procedures on their part, or both.





It means that the bullet isn't properly stabilized in flight, which could have to do with the rifling twist rate, bullet weight, undersized diameter bullets (?) or a combination... are we talking pistol here?

Yep, 45ACP out of a 5" 1911. I used Montana Gold 230gr FMJ. I loaded them weak as hell though....that could be why. Used 5.8gr of unique. They all cycled the gun though.

Zombie Steve
11-05-2010, 20:53
Yep, 45ACP out of a 5" 1911. I used Montana Gold 230gr FMJ. I loaded them weak as hell though....that could be why. Used 5.8gr of unique. They all cycled the gun though.

I'm almost betting they weren't .451".

5.8 grains should still be getting them up around 800fps. 6 grains of Unique is a sort of gold standard with 230 gr. fmj's.

fredj338
11-05-2010, 21:51
Some of my reloads have been doing that too. Does a keyhole just mean the round was loaded too weak?

Definitely an excuse. Example; I ran some Blazer 230gr ball through my very accurate 1911. It will do sub 2" groups w/ good ammo all day @ 25yds. THis stuff would barely do 4" @ 15yds. When I took it to a training class, I still had no problems shooting fast & tight out to the same 15yds. Beyond that, accurate ammo will really show up.
Like Xdrox said, it's about consistency, quality components & good technique. For the most part, decent handloads will beat cheap factory Wolf, Tula or WWB by a good margin.
Keyholing can be a bullet that is going too slow for the twist rate or too small for the groove diameter or both. You'll see it w/ plated bullets & the LFCD in some calibers or when pushing a plated bullet too fast, like the 124gr Berry's @ 1400fps in the 357sig.

Bob2223
11-05-2010, 22:29
Definitely an excuse. Example; I ran some Blazer 230gr ball through my very accurate 1911. It will do sub 2" groups w/ goo dammo all day @ 25yds. THis stuff would barely do 4" @ 15yds. When I took it to a training class, I still had no problems shooting fast & tight out to the same 15yds. Beyond that, accurate ammo will really show up.
Like Xdrox said, it's about consistency, quality components & good technique. For the most part, decent handloads will beat cheap factory Wolf, Tula or WWB by a good margin.
Keyholing can be a bullet that is going too slow for the twist rate or too small for the groove diameter ot both. You'll see it w/ plated bullets & the LFCD in some calibers or when pushing a plated bullet too fast, like the 1224gr Berry's @ 1400fps in the 357sig.


Fred slow down typing or get some freakin sleep I still cant stop laughing after I read about 1224 gr goo dammo !

1224 gn at 1400 fps? :wow:
Musta been with that new win powder, lets see what was it called,,,WT something I think?


Bob :rofl:

fredj338
11-05-2010, 22:35
Fred slow down typing or get some freakin sleep I still cant stop laughing after I read about 1224 gr goo dammo !

1224 gn at 1400 fps? :wow:
Musta been with that new win powder, lets see what was it called,,,WT something I think?


Bob :rofl:
Well, I pulled apart some misc ammo I found on the grorund, used the powder for WTF & then melted down all the bullets & made one, it weighed 1224gr. Hmm, maybe that's why it keyholes?:tongueout: Typing has never been my strong point & I have to do it all day! I'ld be fine if I could have a pretty secretary to proof read everything before I post. Maybe Jack will loan me one of his.

Bob2223
11-05-2010, 22:42
Well, I pulled apart some misc ammo I found on the grorund, used the powder for WTF & then melted down all the bullets & made one, it weighed 1224gr. Hmm, maybe that's why it keyholes?:tongueout: Typing has never been my strong point & I have to do it all day! I'ld be fine if I could have a pretty secretary to proof read everything before I post. Maybe Jack will loan me one of his.



It musta been a long bullet in a 45 at 1224 gn! :wow:
The key holing musta look like you slapped it with a banana
:rofl:

Borrow one from Jack!
Woooo that might be scary! :shocked:


Bob

dudel
11-06-2010, 05:27
Can you make some rounds accurate and others not? I just went to an IDPA-type shoot the other day, and some of the guys were complaining that their reloads were the reason for their crappy shooting. Was this an excuse, or are there times when the rounds you make actually do suck and affect your shooting?

How do i make the most accurate reloads? (within the realm of reason). I'm pretty sure im not good enough for it to make a difference, but what do i know?:dunno:

You can reload both accurate and inaccurate rounds. Inaccurate is easy; accurate is more difficult. The difference, is that smart people don't load up 1000 inaccurate rounds and go to a match where they complain about their reloads. :rofl:

You work up your loads in small batches, changing powders, throw, OAL, etc (one at a time please), until you find the accuracy you need for your gun. THEN you load up 1000 rounds. There's no excuse for a reloader to show up with inaccurate rounds.

To make accurate rounds, you work up loads, paying attention to the details. Once you find that accurate load, you load them up paying attention to the details. They won't be accurate is the primers aren't being seated uniformly, or if the powder throw changes every round, or if the OAL changes on every round, or of the neck tension is different on every round (good components help and sorted brass helps here). Etc, etc, etc. Lots of attention to detail so that the variables are minimized.

I'm going through the process right now with 45 GAP. I just finished 5 round batches with different charge weights. Good notes on what was done (brass, primer, OAL, etc). Later on when it get's light, I'll shoot them through the chrono and see what they do. Some will rise to the top and get further consideration (perhaps vary the OAL). Then I'll try the same with another powder. Then another powder (I'm working with Bullseye, Unique and Powder Pistol on these). When I find one I like, I'll lock it in and make large amounts. At a later date, I may go back to my notes and see if I can come up with a good load for another powder (or projectile).

You can reload on any equipment. You can make good, accurate ammo on most any equipment. It's just harder to make good on equipment that has more slop, play and wider tolerances.

IndyGunFreak
11-06-2010, 06:13
Sounds like an excuse.
Consistency is what you're looking for. So quality bullets (same size, weight, etc), consistent powder throw (same amount of powder in each case), brass that has been fired the same number of times and is the same brand.

I totally agree w/ this... the shot to shot consistency of my loads, is one of many reasons I prefer my loads over store bought stuff.

I remember back when I first started carrying, and was kinda going through the "What do I want to carry stage" and bought a small box of several different loads to test out. 165gr Remington GS... Literally one shot would have a nice, dim flash, and the next would look like I just shot a cannon and my eyes would be crossed like someone just set off a flash bulb right in front of me. It was that way through the whole box, and I never bothered w/ them after that.

Never had that problem w/ Speer, Federal, or Winchester.

IGF

GLShooter
11-06-2010, 09:55
You can make poor reloads much easier than god ones. You just don't pay attention. That being said I feel that anyone that blames the reloads has some priority issues. Why would ANYONE shoot a load in a match that he KNEW was inaccurate?

I was the Oklahoma USPSA SC for eleven years and shot 13 USPSA Nat back to back. I never heard a bad reload blamed on any performance other than a stuck bullet squib.

I can't imagine loading up a batch of ammo and just going to the match with it and shooting. I guess those guys never heard of sighting in your pistol with different ammo? OH, that right, they are PRACTICAL shooters. The don't need no stinkin' sightin' in!!!

These are the same guys with the $2500 Wilson Super Combat and the high speed low drag holsters that tell you they could hit a 20 mile an hour mover at 25 yards left handed all day long if their "reloads" were just a little bit more accurate. Heck, they spend more on 511 gear than I spend on my clothes in a year and I dress pretty darn nice at times.

I went to an IDPA match once and was freaking out. I'm a bit camera shy, not, and here are all these professional photographers wearing guns and I couldn't get anyone to take my picture with my wife. I guess the guys shooting your matches need to just buy factory ammo. It would make them a better shot by shear quality of equipment improvement.

Greg

PS: The answer to what makes them accurate? For me it is the selection of components and the assembly of quantities of the same combination once I have tested several variations out to meet my accuracy and functional criteria,

Repetition and attention to detail of a PROVEN load will help bring home the GOLD or the bacon.

GioaJack
11-06-2010, 10:30
Well, I pulled apart some misc ammo I found on the grorund, used the powder for WTF & then melted down all the bullets & made one, it weighed 1224gr. Hmm, maybe that's why it keyholes?:tongueout: Typing has never been my strong point & I have to do it all day! I'ld be fine if I could have a pretty secretary to proof read everything before I post. Maybe Jack will loan me one of his.


Keep your perverted, lustful thoughts away from my secretaries old man... after the way they've been trained you couldn't handle it. :whistling:


Jack

EL_NinO619
11-06-2010, 10:44
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Keep your perverted, lustful thoughts away from my secretaries old man... after the way they've been trained you couldn't handle it. :whistling:


Jack


They just can't go any where, because you have them tied down with your spare oxygen tubes to your 1050:supergrin:

And it also sounds like a excuse to me..I would think if i was shooting in a comp. I would already have my load figured out.

Zombie Steve
11-06-2010, 12:01
Fred's 1224 grain loads are pretty well documented here fellas... I've been loading them up with a good dose of WTF for a while now. My question is - does my crimp look alright?

http://www.leverguns.com/480/9.jpg

GLShooter
11-06-2010, 12:03
Fred's 1224 grain loads are pretty well documented here fellas... I've been loading them up with a good dose of WTF for a while now. My question is - does my crimp look alright?

http://www.leverguns.com/480/9.jpg


I'd use the next crimp groove up if it were I. More pressure less powder space.

Greg

Zombie Steve
11-06-2010, 12:06
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

GioaJack
11-06-2010, 12:21
Fred's 1224 grain loads are pretty well documented here fellas... I've been loading them up with a good dose of WTF for a while now. My question is - does my crimp look alright?

http://www.leverguns.com/480/9.jpg


I certainly don't see a problem. How do they group at a hundred? :dunno:


Jack

Zombie Steve
11-06-2010, 12:23
Pretty consistent one shot groups.

Gunnut 45/454
11-06-2010, 13:06
Accuracy is 90% shooter ( Especially Pistol) 10% ammo! No way around these simple facts!:rofl:

GioaJack
11-06-2010, 13:16
Accuracy is 90% shooter ( Especially Pistol) 10% ammo! No way around these simple facts!:rofl:



:thumbsup: Smart man... better to be a good shot with bad ammo than a bad shot with good ammo. (Unless of course you're me, then nothing helps.)


Jack

Kegs
11-06-2010, 14:02
What makes your reloads accurate? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1281775) What makes your reloads accurate?

Adjusting your sights!


Err wait a minute, I think you meant what makes reloads produce good precision?


A: Keeping each component consistent in terms of weights and measurements.

There are LOTS of things that can make for poor precision stemming from ammunition production. For example:

1. Case make, mass, hardness, thickness and length.
2. Consistent head spacing (can be related to #1)
3. Powder charge mass (assumption is they have all been loaded with the same powder).
4. Case overall length (COAL) consistency (can be related to 1&2).
5. Same make and mass of bullet.
6. Same crimp on each round.
7. Same primer in each round (and consistency in primer ignition)
8. Proper age and/or storage of components or ammunition.

There are quite a few more issues as well.

Also, to produce ammo with a specific point of impact (true meaning of accuracy here WITHOUT adjusting your sights), the powder charge has got to match the harmonics of your bullet exiting the bore. If it doesn't, it will result in a different point of impact than your point of aim.

These variables are the reason that there are differences in point of impact and precision of groups in different ammo types (and even lot#s).

I suspect many shooters will never be able to tell the difference because their expectations of accuracy & precision are relatively low.

Lots of guys load their rounds with a typical trickle charger - this means they will have a higher variance of powder mass from round to round - it's the best way to guarantee your ammo will not allow for the best precision.

Kegs
11-06-2010, 14:09
Pretty consistent one shot groups.

Exactly.

Accuracy only requires one shot. If point of impact = point of aim on that ONE shot, it's accurate.

As soon as shot #2 is compared to shot #1, you're examining the precision.

Accuracy = [point of aim = point of impact]

Precision = error around the mean...

There is a very clear conceptual difference fellas.

dudel
11-06-2010, 18:27
Fred's 1224 grain loads are pretty well documented here fellas... I've been loading them up with a good dose of WTF for a while now. My question is - does my crimp look alright?

http://www.leverguns.com/480/9.jpg

I've heard of RN, FN, HP, SP, and other profiles. First time I've seen a "muffin top" round.

Zombie Steve
11-06-2010, 22:48
You shot .22's before, right? You've just never seen muffintopzillaź.



I can't remember where I found that idiotic page...



A-HA! Found it. Congratulations, you've crimped a turd.

Enjoy.

http://www.leverguns.com/480/crimp.htm

fredj338
11-06-2010, 22:56
Fred's 1224 grain loads are pretty well documented here fellas... I've been loading them up with a good dose of WTF for a while now. My question is - does my crimp look alright?

http://www.leverguns.com/480/9.jpg
I agree w/ Jack, they look fine to me?:dunno: