Loading without knowing Max... [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Loading without knowing Max...


Boxerglocker
11-07-2010, 02:32
Here's a question for you all. I got into a debate with someone in another forum who offered a collective of loading data for .45 ACP all his data gave starting charges for given bullets and powder, but no Max. He stated:

"Here is a compilation of ALL data I have found in various reloading manuals or published in magazines. Note that there is no such thing as a max load that is a max load for everyone. I start at the lowest starting load and work up carefully."

My interpretation of the statement and data is for me and for most people that without a known given Maximum charge it is useless. That though I agree every published resources for given powders and bullet combos, Max may be different... you need to have a reference (of course cross checked) in order to stay safe and stay within specifically safe pressure ranges.

In other words... if I gave anyone here a given starting charge and said "work up carefully" would you be OK not knowing a max charge for a specific powder?

dudel
11-07-2010, 02:44
Technically, that's correct. Max load will depend on the gun, COAL and other variables. A 38 spl might be max for an very old gun with older metalurgy; but be fine in a modern gun rated for +P+ rounds.

Problem is that without proper equipment, many people won't recognize a max load until it's too late. Max loads are published to gived people an idea of where the max limit is without damaging one's self or the gun.

Boxerglocker
11-07-2010, 03:04
Technically, that's correct. Max load will depend on the gun, COAL and other variables. A 38 spl might be max for an very old gun with older metalurgy; but be fine in a modern gun rated for +P+ rounds.

Problem is that without proper equipment, many people won't recognize a max load until it's too late. Max loads are published to gived people an idea of where the max limit is without damaging one's self or the gun.

I'm assuming you are agreeing with me then Dudel? That without proper equipment you would not be able to make that determination of exactly what is max for your particular gun? Hence, my disagreement with the other individual and as your statement that " Max loads are published to gived people an idea of where the max limit is without damaging one's self or the gun".

dudel
11-07-2010, 04:46
I'm assuming you are agreeing with me then Dudel? That without proper equipment you would not be able to make that determination of exactly what is max for your particular gun? Hence, my disagreement with the other individual and as your statement that " Max loads are published to gived people an idea of where the max limit is without damaging one's self or the gun".

Basically yes. Max varies by gun and how the round is assembled.

Safely knowing where "Max" is requires more equipment than the average reloader has.

If safety is not an issue, then anyone can determine what the maximum load for a gun is. Once (per gun).

Sort of like red line on a car. Some will rev past the red line further than others. Without a tach, the only way to know you've exceeded red line is when you pick up the pieces.

WiskyT
11-07-2010, 06:41
The guy is an idiot. First of all, who needs a compilation of transcribed data for 45ACp? Like there is some kind of shortage of 45ACP data or something. For less than the cost of a fart you can get data free from the powder companies websites. Like I need this guy retyping something that can get me killed when the info is available free.

Maybe we can get him to post a list of tire pressures for our cars, we wouldn't want to just look at the sticker in the door jamb or the manual when we can get it second or third hand from a guy on the internet.

Second, there is a max. You can find it in the data manuals. They list a max based on the anticipated use of the data.

Say, I did just get a can of WTF and I can't find any data for 40SW. Does that guy have any using a 180LFP?

Max1775
11-07-2010, 07:16
Lots of people load without knowing me...
-Max




:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Boxerglocker
11-07-2010, 09:28
Whiskey have you seen that post?

Fred, Gio, Stevie, Ron59 get in here...

Would like more input please?

fredj338
11-07-2010, 10:36
In other words... if I gave anyone here a given starting charge and said "work up carefully" would you be OK not knowing a max charge for a specific powder?
Maybe it's a matter of interpretation. Thought don't awlays come across correctly typing it back & forth. In a word, yes, I would be comfortable working up a load w/ no data. WHy, because I have done it w/ several wildcats & going slow, using a chronograph, measuring case heads & looking for other pressure signs, it can be done. I have worked up a 250grLHP load for the 45acp. Not much data their, but I did cheat & use 230grLRn as a starting point.
While it's never a good idea to deviate from book max. Every gun IS diff & you can sometimes go where the book says you shouldn't. The earlier WTF thread is an example. Dangerous, sure, can it be done, sure. You still have no idea exactly what you have going on pressure wise, but the condition of the brass tells quite a bit.

Boxerglocker
11-07-2010, 10:59
Maybe it's a matter of interpretation. Thought don't awlays come across correctly typing it back & forth. In a word, yes, I would be comfortable working up a load w/ no data. WHy, because I have done it w/ several wildcats & going slow, using a chronograph, measuring case heads & looking for other pressure signs, it can be done. I have worked up a 250grLHP load for the 45acp. Not much data their, but I did cheat & use 230grLRn as a starting point.
While it's never a good idea to deviate from book max. Every gun IS diff & you can sometimes go where the book says you shouldn't. The earlier WTF thread is an example. Dangerous, sure, can it be done, sure. You still have no idea exactly what you have going on pressure wise, but the condition of the brass tells quite a bit.

Fair enough Fred, and like I said to the guy... I agree to a point for the same reasons you have given. I acknowledge the reasoning, however this means of advice was given as appropriate for anyone... the info was granted as acceptable for use by a completely newbish reloading seeking suggestion to try out his new press. Does not sit well with me :upeyes:

hoffy
11-07-2010, 11:08
I would rather have a Max to reduce 10% or more, but have been doing this long enough and am enough of a realist to know that some doufusses will start out at max, seen it done many times when I worked at a gun shop. From blow ups to jugged chambers, we saw it all. Why the guy in question posted that is pretty silly, maybe he is really worried about us.

ilgunguygt
11-07-2010, 14:33
I would rather have a Max to reduce 10% or more, but have been doing this long enough and am enough of a realist to know that some doufusses will start out at max, seen it done many times when I worked at a gun shop. From blow ups to jugged chambers, we saw it all. Why the guy in question posted that is pretty silly, maybe he is really worried about us.
There are lots of other reasons also, but that is one reason that powder manufacturers have kept lowering max charges over the years. They know that there will always be that percentage that will say "I want it as powerful as it can be, so I will just load them at max, cause its still safe." They anticipate this and lower max charges. I have danced around and over max on many different occasions and have found that in most cases it is conservative. I worked a 185 gr GDHP load with power pistol above max using a chronograph and at a specific .1gr increment the velocity stops increasing with powder charge increase. We went .1gr past again, to see if it was a fluke, no, still no increase in velocity when averaged. When charted you could plainly see the drop off. Still no signs of overpressure, accurate also. But in a case that has a max pressure about 1/2 of what it usually takes to flatten a primer, what do you use for overpressure signs? We measured the brass, thats about it. However, I think we found the max charge for that bullet combo, in that gun.

GioaJack
11-07-2010, 15:52
Can you load safely using a powder with an unknown max? Certainly. Is there any good reason to do it? Probably not... and most assuredly not by a loader without a lot of experience of traveling off the well beaten path.

With as many choices of powders available and the accompanying information there's really no reason to delve into the unknown. Even when developing a 'wildcat' cartridge, (if there are any left to be developed... I suppose there is), a very educated assumption can be made as to what will happen with a given powder, bullet weight, bearing surface and basic caliber although the overall performance out of a non-conforming case may introduce an unknown variable. All that is part of the fun of being a 'hand loader' as opposed to a 'reloader', if you accept that there is a difference.

Have loaders done things in the past that maybe shouldn't have been done? Uh, yeah. Was there a lot of luck involved and maybe a little bit of educated guessing? Again, yeah.

Back in the days when we used to go to the gun shop and buy powder in a brown paper bag, literally, you weren't really always sure exactly what you had... you just knew you had powder and one way or another you were going to use it.

There used to be a basic theory that when dealing with a pistol caliber, (bear in mind that back then the popular calibers were .38/.357 mag, .45 acp, .45 colt and the .44's) 3 grains of anything would give you a safe starting point. You simply went with that and made the determination if that particular powder held promise for acceptable results with further work or if it was just shuffled off in favor of other powders that showed more potential.

Was it a smart thing to do, of course not but youth and cockiness carries with it a certain 'I can do it better than you can'. If you're lucky you get to grow out of that cocky youth stage and develop into a crotchety old man... if you're real lucky you get there with all your fingers and both eyes.

A lot has changed with powders, testing and availability of information over the decades but it really wasn't all that long ago, at least it doesn't seem that long ago', that you'd pick up your copy of 'Sixgun' by Elmer Keith, read the chapter on duplex loads and say to yourself, 'hey, I can do that'.

Smart? No. Can it be done? Yup. Should you? Well, lets put it this way... the day I get married again will be the day it's smart to do stupid things with powder charges. Don't hold your breath.


Jack

fredj338
11-07-2010, 16:12
Fair enough Fred, and like I said to the guy... I agree to a point for the same reasons you have given. I acknowledge the reasoning, however this means of advice was given as appropriate for anyone... the info was granted as acceptable for use by a completely newbish reloading seeking suggestion to try out his new press. Does not sit well with me :upeyes:
Well, that is the point. When I teach a reloading class, I stress NEVER go outside the loading data, never. Have I don it, sure, would I teach someone how, sure, the right person. Is it safe, done correctly, yes. Can anyone do it, uh, nope! It requries you understand how to read pressure signs, even then it's an educated guess. I would say 95% of the people handloading should stick to book loads, never exceeed max, never. Then there are the 5% that have the experience top go a bit further, to develope loads for powders others don't use or completely wildcat carts where no data is given. A chronograph & something like Quickloads, can get you pretty far in safe load developement.

Sonnytoo
11-07-2010, 22:33
I agree on the use of the chronograph. That can do wonders for load development. I'll be using mine at the range this week for various .45 ACP loadings: W231 with various bullets, plated, jacketed, XTP's, different weights, etc. Nothing fancy, but setting up decent loads for my new G36 and my older G30.
Sonnytoo

OkieGunNut
11-08-2010, 06:01
"There are lots of other reasons also, but that is one reason that powder manufacturers have kept lowering max charges over the years. They know that there will always be that percentage that will say "I want it as powerful as it can be, so I will just load them at max, cause its still safe." They anticipate this and lower max charges."
ilgunguy, I think they had people like my mother-in-law's third husband in mind when they did that. When he passed away I got most of his stuff, guns and reloading equip. He had a crap load of loaded ammo. I don't think he ever shot any, just loaded it. Anyway, he had over a thousand 357 Mag loaded up with Blue Dot. His label listed the load which was over max in a current manuel. In his Speer manuel, '70s printing, it was the max load for those weight bullets. He had two Ruger Security Sixes and a Speed Six. I don't think he ever fired a round because they gave sticky extraction in his guns and my Blackhawk. I used his BlueDot to load to current Max and everything was fine. I have a bunch of bullets to pull someday.

VN350X10
11-10-2010, 22:03
If it wasn't for a chrono, a Blackhawk convertible, a VERY accurate digital caliper & a lab grade scale, I never would have gotten into 9mm Major for USPSA Open. The Ruger let me verify powder increase vs. no velocity increase in a second known strong firearm to back up the data from my G34, & the brass I used was a special bunch, long story, but how many foks have pulled down Hirtenberger L7A1 for test brass ! The Hirt makes 1404 fps ave. from the G34 w/a 124 gr bulllet !

uncle albert