Why is it so hard to admit Atheism is a Religion? [Archive] - Page 10 - Glock Talk

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Cavalry Doc
07-24-2012, 18:21
I'll take this is as you declining to elaborate on your position. You want me to tell you if something is or is not possible, but you won't tell me exactly what criteria I would be answering on? My previous argument is for the most common definition of "god". If you have another in mind then share it and we will test it and see if it's valid and sound. If you don't want to do that then I'll just assume the debate is over.

I know it's difficult for you, but don't take it as anything other than stated.

You have nothing to fear from simple questions. Just answer, unless you are afraid, and then I'll have some more questions......

1. You've essentially said that there is not absolute tangible irrefutable and demonstrable proof that a deity did not create the universe.

2. You've stated that you've used your superior intellect and mastery of inductive thinking to prove to yourself and others that no deity has existed.

3. And now you are saying that you have only considered a deity that contains certain absolute traits?

Are there any of the three points above that you agree with?


If so, please tell me exactly what you are presenting proof of again.

Geko45
07-24-2012, 19:08
You have nothing to fear from simple questions. Just answer, unless you are afraid, and then I'll have some more questions......

You haven't answered the question I posed to you first. Why do you think I would answer yours now? You asked me if I had considered a different type of deity. I asked you to elaborate on this different type of deity so that I could respond with specifics. You have declined to answer.

Your questions aren't even real questions, they are a strawman presented as a list of questions. Statements phrased to solicit answers that are not representative of my actual position. I've actually answered all three of them in detail in my previous posts much more completely than you will ever acknowledge anyway.

At least my question was legitimate and not a crude ploy to ensnare you. It was apparently to much for you to deal with.

:yawn:

This is boring. I'll check back on you in 10 pages or so. I'm sure you'll still be here.

Cavalry Doc
07-24-2012, 19:17
:outtahere:
So, fear it is.

OK. Check back when you are up to it.

Geko45
07-28-2012, 21:17
.....

steveksux
07-28-2012, 23:41
You know, its a nice cool night. Just went out to see the new Batman movie.

How about you guys? What's the weather like where you are?

Randy

Geko45
07-29-2012, 07:47
You know, its a nice cool night. Just went out to see the new Batman movie.

How about you guys? What's the weather like where you are?

Randy

Gorgeous weather here this weekend. Took the boat out yesterday with some friends and then it was grilling burgers on the back porch followed by guys poker night. Fun was had by all!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

G23Gen4TX
07-29-2012, 10:14
If you claim Atheism is a religion please:

- Name our god / gods
- Name and date at least one holiday
- Name the location / origin of our religion
- Tell us about some of the ceremonies we do

As usual, proof or shut it.

steveksux
07-29-2012, 11:37
If you claim Atheism is a religion please:

- Name our god / gods
- Name and date at least one holiday
- Name the location / origin of our religion
- Tell us about some of the ceremonies we do

As usual, proof or shut it.
You must be new here. All these have been asked and sidestepped many times.

How's the weather where you're at? Welcome to the board. You'll find most of us are not intellectually dishonest.

Randy

steveksux
07-29-2012, 11:46
This might be useful. Its the only way the rest of us could possibly keep up.

Buy a Minn Kota Endura Trolling Motor, Get a Battery Charger At 25% Off



Randy

Cavalry Doc
07-29-2012, 11:53
If you claim Atheism is a religion please:

- Name our god / gods
- Name and date at least one holiday
- Name the location / origin of our religion
- Tell us about some of the ceremonies we do
.......

-Null

-New Years Day, 1 Jan. Mayday, 1May. Many also celebrate local religious holidays, dress up for halloween, exchange gifts at christmas time, etc.

http://i1.cpcache.com/product/328294501/rudolphs_nose_is_an_evolutionary_advantage_cards.jpg?height=240&width=240http://i1.cpcache.com/product/328294501/rudolphs_nose_is_an_evolutionary_advantage_cards.jpg?side=Inside&height=240&width=240

-Earth

-Marriage, birthdays, anniversaries, funerals. You can even get ordained to perform ceremonies here:

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/wp-content/Header-pic-2.jpg
http://firstchurchofatheism.com/

Mind your manners. :wavey:

High-Gear
07-29-2012, 13:37
-Null

-New Years Day, 1 Jan. Mayday, 1May. Many also celebrate local religious holidays, dress up for halloween, exchange gifts at christmas time, etc.

http://i1.cpcache.com/product/328294501/rudolphs_nose_is_an_evolutionary_advantage_cards.jpg?height=240&width=240http://i1.cpcache.com/product/328294501/rudolphs_nose_is_an_evolutionary_advantage_cards.jpg?side=Inside&height=240&width=240

-Earth

-Marriage, birthdays, anniversaries, funerals. You can even get ordained to perform ceremonies here:

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/wp-content/Header-pic-2.jpg
http://firstchurchofatheism.com/

Mind your manners. :wavey:

The church of Atheism was created to allow for secular weddings not conducted by a judge. People got tired of non- denominational services actually being christian.
http://firstchurchofatheism.com/faq/

They are a "church" in name only.

Cavalry Doc
07-29-2012, 15:48
The church of Atheism was created to allow for secular weddings not conducted by a judge. People got tired of non- denominational services actually being christian.
http://firstchurchofatheism.com/faq/

They are a "church" in name only.

Are you sure? On the left hand side, they have an online offering plate.

He asked, I answered. I understand their function. Cool logo though.

High-Gear
07-29-2012, 15:57
Are you sure? On the left hand side, they have an online offering plate.

He asked, I answered. I understand their function. Cool logo though.


Every group who takes donations is now a religion? UNICEF, GlockTalk, and my local medical center must all be religions!

What questions did you answer? The card is a replacement for a Christmas card which is humorous. The "Church" of Atheism explicitly says they are not a religion, ony using the name "Church"

There is a group of Dan Wesson 1911's which calls themselves COTEP the "Church of The Enlightened Pistolero". That does not make them a religion.

**Some religious members balked and they changed Church to Congregation.** the point still stands.

Cavalry Doc
07-29-2012, 16:18
Every group who takes donations is now a religion? UNICEF, GlockTalk, and my local medical center must all be religions!

What questions did you answer? The card is a replacement for a Christmas card which is humorous. The "Church" of Atheism explicitly says they are not a religion, ony using the name "Church"

There is a group of Dan Wesson 1911's which calls themselves COTEP the "Church of The Enlightened Pistolero". That does not make them a religion.

**Some religious members balked and they changed Church to Congregation.** the point still stands.

Lighten up a bit, that was a joke.

What makes it a religion is the profound assumption made, based on faith, and held to with ardor. All that fits rather well to me, not so well in the opinion of others.

It's a little controversial, that's all.

High-Gear
07-29-2012, 16:34
Lighten up a bit, that was a joke.

What makes it a religion is the profound assumption made, based on faith, and held to with ardor. All that fits rather well to me, not so well in the opinion of others.

It's a little controversial, that's all.

I'm not heated, tone of voice is hard to determine online. I should have thrown in a few of these. :tongueout::rofl::wavey::supergrin:

Cavalry Doc
07-29-2012, 16:37
I'm not heated, tone of voice is hard to determine online. I should have thrown in a few of these. :tongueout::rofl::wavey::supergrin:

:cheers:

Geko45
08-07-2012, 17:38
:cheers:

:beer:

Cavalry Doc
09-01-2012, 11:44
:beer:

What?

Altaris
09-01-2012, 12:03
What?

yes .

Geko45
09-01-2012, 13:09
yes .

Exactly.

steveksux
09-02-2012, 06:57
Exactly.

Bingo.

Randy

Geko45
09-02-2012, 08:02
Bingo.

Affirmative.

:thumbsup:

Cavalry Doc
09-02-2012, 09:01
:rofl:

Geko45
09-02-2012, 10:20
:animlol:

Cavalry Doc
09-02-2012, 10:47
Your OCD is showing again. :thumbsup:

Geko45
09-02-2012, 10:56
Your OCD is showing again. :thumbsup:

Really? I'm not the one that revived a nearly four week old thread with a post of "What? You just couldn't stand to not have the last word, could you?

Cavalry Doc
09-02-2012, 11:04
Really? I'm not the one that revived a nearly four week old thread with a post of "What? You just couldn't stand to not have the last word, could you?

Oh no, nothing of the sort. I just wanted to show you your OCD, and how easily manipulated you are. It was a slow night on GTPI, and I know you've been missing me.

:tongueout:

Geko45
09-02-2012, 11:23
Oh no, nothing of the sort. I just wanted to show you your OCD, and how easily manipulated you are. It was a slow night on GTPI, and I know you've been missing me.

:tongueout:

Ah, so you are trying to take what I said about you about a dozen pages ago and pin it on me hoping no one will remember that far back? Kinda weak don't ya think?

Well, I don't need the last word in this thread. I just wanted to prove that you were unable to let this go despite having nothing left meaningful to say. Now that I've done that, feel free to have your last word. Consider it a gift, my obsessive compulsive friend.

:wavey:

Cavalry Doc
09-02-2012, 13:47
Ah, so you are trying to take what I said about you about a dozen pages ago and pin it on me hoping no one will remember that far back? Kinda weak don't ya think?

Well, I don't need the last word in this thread. I just wanted to prove that you were unable to let this go despite having nothing left meaningful to say. Now that I've done that, feel free to have your last word. Consider a gift, my obsessive compulsive friend.

:wavey:

I think we've covered and proven your projection in that regard quite nicely. Which will be proven again as soon as you reply to this post. :rofl::rofl: You couldn't wait 4 weeks to respond, could you?

steveksux
09-02-2012, 17:09
Oh no, nothing of the sort. I just wanted to show you your OCD, and how easily manipulated you are. It was a slow night on GTPI, and I know you've been missing me.

:tongueout:We can all argue over what the O in OCD stands for, but it's pretty obvious who the CD stands for. :rofl:

Randy

Backfire_Tx
09-02-2012, 22:02
I've been having a discussion with a fellow about his religion. He is an atheist, or at least he claims to be.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16262611&posted=1#post16262611

He believes that God does not exist, however, he acknowledges that it is impossible for him to prove this belief.

So, when it is pointed out that he has "Faith" that he is right, and that his view of the universe is right. As devout as any other religious fellow that I've run across.


Just to make sure I am being clear about my own beliefs, I am unsure, I'm an agnostic. I see evidence in nature and in man that both makes me believe that there may be a God, and there may not be one, or at least it may be difficult to know which one is the right one.

Atheists amaze me, on their convictions. One thing i never really understood maybe you can help me. Answer this...

If one believes that there is evil and it does exist, then they must also assume that there is "good". If there is "good" (stay with me now) there must be a moral law to determine what is good. If there is a moral law, there must be a moral law giver.

An atheist viciously believes that he is right, and must then believe that others are "wrong". That his belief is good/right and that others are bad/wrong. This to me is absurd and extraordinary self defeating and illogical. Surely an atheist would believe that there is evil and therefore "good".

Syclone538
09-02-2012, 22:13
Atheists amaze me, on their convictions. One thing i never really understood maybe you can help me. Answer this...

If one believes that there is evil and it does exist, then they must also assume that there is "good". If there is "good" (stay with me now) there must be a moral law to determine what is good. If there is a moral law, there must be a moral law giver.
...

Yeah we've heard William Lane Craig too.


An atheist viciously believes that he is right,
...

False.

Backfire_Tx
09-02-2012, 22:22
Yeah we've heard William Lane Craig too.



False.

I did not hear that from Lane. It originated from CS Lewis - Mere Christainty. He once was an atheist as well. Moral Law.

Animal Mother
09-02-2012, 22:50
Atheists amaze me, on their convictions. One thing i never really understood maybe you can help me. Answer this...

If one believes that there is evil and it does exist, then they must also assume that there is "good". If there is "good" (stay with me now) there must be a moral law to determine what is good. If there is a moral law, there must be a moral law giver.

An atheist viciously believes that he is right, and must then believe that others are "wrong". That his belief is good/right and that others are bad/wrong. This to me is absurd and extraordinary self defeating and illogical. Surely an atheist would believe that there is evil and therefore "good".
While I'm hesitant to extend this thread any further, I do feel compelled to ask, in the case of nebulous concepts like religion, how do you identify "right" or "good" in any terms other than the most basic concepts?

An atheist believing that gods don't exist isn't making a value judgement (such as good or bad). Instead they're advancing a truth proposition, absent any attached values in the moral or ethical sense.

Backfire_Tx
09-02-2012, 22:54
While I'm hesitant to extend this thread any further, I do feel compelled to ask, in the case of nebulous concepts like religion, how do you identify "right" or "good" in any terms other than the most basic concepts?

An atheist believing that gods don't exist isn't making a value judgement (such as good or bad). Instead they're advancing a truth proposition, absent any attached values in the moral or ethical sense.

How basic? I'll bet you have a firm grasp of what is "good" and "bad". Don't sell yourself to short. I have never met anyone that did not have a "basic concept" of what they consider right and wrong. You do have values - i assure you that you do.

Animal Mother
09-02-2012, 22:56
How basic? I'll bet you have a firm grasp of what is "good" and "bad". Don't sell yourself to short. I have never met anyone that did not have a "basic concept" of what they consider right and wrong.
In the interest of not interrupting Cavalry Doc's pontification, I'm going to reply in a new thread, if you don't mind.

Edit: Actually, I shouldn't have said, "if you don't mind" because I did it anyway without waiting for a response:
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1441030

Cavalry Doc
09-03-2012, 06:55
Yeah we've heard William Lane Craig too.

Originally Posted by Backfire_Tx
An atheist viciously believes that he is right,
...


False.

oh, the irony. You haven't read much of the thread, have you?

Backfire_Tx
09-03-2012, 07:52
oh, the irony. You haven't read much of the thread, have you?

Yea some of it. I admit i did not read every post.

steveksux
09-03-2012, 08:07
How basic? I'll bet you have a firm grasp of what is "good" and "bad". Don't sell yourself to short. I have never met anyone that did not have a "basic concept" of what they consider right and wrong. You do have values - i assure you that you do.Of course. That's why there's no need to have an imaginary man in the sky to point them out. Common sense does a fine job all on its own. Common sense is the only lawgiver necessary.

If you can't wrap your head around that concept, and an imaginary figure is still considered necessary for some reason, Santa Clause fills the bill nicely. He knows if you've been naughty or nice, and will reward you accordingly.

Makes more sense than religion at least from a practical standpoint. You don't have hordes of people who don't believe in Santa trying to kill the people that do believe in Santa.

Randy

Backfire_Tx
09-03-2012, 08:25
Of course. That's why there's no need to have an imaginary man in the sky to point them out. Common sense does a fine job all on its own. Common sense is the only lawgiver necessary.

If you can't wrap your head around that concept, and an imaginary figure is still considered necessary for some reason, Santa Clause fills the bill nicely. He knows if you've been naughty or nice, and will reward you accordingly.

Makes more sense than religion at least from a practical standpoint. You don't have hordes of people who don't believe in Santa trying to kill the people that do believe in Santa.

Randy

You are moving in the right direction...Common sense of what is evil and good.

Premise:
If one believes that there is evil and it does exist, then they must also assume that there is "good". If there is "good" (stay with me now) there must be a moral law to determine what is good. If there is a moral law, there must be a moral law giver.

Geko45
09-03-2012, 20:00
Good and evil as traditionally conceptualized do not exist as there is no objective source. Right and wrong, however, can be assigned some meaningful definition in the terms of constructive and destructive acts.

Cavalry Doc
09-03-2012, 20:17
Couldn't wait 4 weeks I see. :rofl: The tinfoil only amplifies the brain control waves, it doesn't block them.

Backfire_Tx
09-03-2012, 20:35
Good and evil as traditionally conceptualized do not exist as there is no objective source. Right and wrong, however, can be assigned some meaningful definition in the terms of constructive and destructive acts.

Give me the "meaningful definition" of good and the source. What is the authority of the source. What person or persons defines good and evil?

Geko45
09-03-2012, 21:31
Give me the "meaningful definition" of good and the source. What is the authority of the source. What person or persons defines good and evil?

I have in this forum before, but I will repeat it once again just for you.

First off, there is no objective source, so no one person defines right and wrong ("good and evil" are your words not mine). In the absence of an objective source, the only option left is subjective to the individual. The individual should be left alone to define their own meanings of right and wrong within the parameters of not preventing someone else from doing likewise.

In other words, right for you (and you alone) is whatever you want it to be and wrong is any action from an individual that prevents someone else from making a similar choice for themselves. Essentially, Libertarianism is the only rational political system that derives from Atheism.

Geko45
09-03-2012, 21:35
Couldn't wait 4 weeks I see. :rofl: The tinfoil only amplifies the brain control waves, it doesn't block them.

Damn, you got me on that one. I'm on Tapatalk here on my tablet and didn't notice that this was that thread. If it makes you feel any better, I had no intention of confronting you further on your flawed premise.

So, do you mind terribly if I discuss this new tangent with Backfire? If you really need the absolute very last post in this thread, I'll be happy to start a new one? I'm willing to accommodate your OCD. I imagine it must be a difficult handicap to cope with.

Bren
09-04-2012, 05:19
Now I see where the "I'm ignorant of the entire field of philosophy" thread got started.:upeyes:

Cavalry Doc
09-04-2012, 05:24
Damn, you got me on that one. I'm on Tapatalk here on my tablet and didn't notice that this was that thread. If it makes you feel any better, I had no intention of confronting you further on your flawed premise.

So, do you mind terribly if I discuss this new tangent with Backfire? If you really need the absolute very last post in this thread, I'll be happy to start a new one? I'm willing to accommodate your COD. I imagine it must be a difficult handicap to cope with.

Sure, but let me help you out. Good and evil, right and wrong, have both individual and social meanings within groups. To say that good and evil do not exist, it to deny something that is plainly evident. I'm sure that if we constructed a suitably bad person doing a suitably abhorrent thing repeatedly to others, that the majority of people would have no problem classifying that person as evil.

Good, evil, right and wrong all exist. Depending on the situation, and the context of how many people we are talking about, where, and maybe even when, the meanings might change a bit, but the concepts hold.

IhRedrider
09-04-2012, 19:54
2297 posts, why is this not a sticky?

Cavalry Doc
09-04-2012, 20:07
2297 posts, why is this not a sticky?

That is a darn good question. I'll ask. http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p158/CavalryDoc/CavDoc-3.gif

RC-RAMIE
09-04-2012, 21:03
2297 posts, why is this not a sticky?

2300 post of useless BS does not deserve a sticky.


....

Altaris
09-04-2012, 21:09
2300 post of useless BS does not deserve a sticky.


....

You just wanted to get the 2300 post :tongueout:

Animal Mother
09-04-2012, 21:09
2300 post of useless BS does not deserve a sticky.


....
To be fair, only about 2275 are useless BS

Cavalry Doc
09-05-2012, 03:07
2300 post of useless BS does not deserve a sticky.


....

Controversial, yes. Worthless, not so much. Religious folks need to challenge their beliefs on occasion, or at least not be too afraid to discuss issues with those that don't share the same beliefs. You've participated often in the thread. You may not agree with this thread, but consider that just about every thread in GTRI is about something someone doesn't agree with.

Geko45
09-05-2012, 20:32
Religious folks need to challenge their beliefs on occasion

Ah, the real reason you are here finally comes to light.

Geko45
09-05-2012, 20:41
Are you personally sure that there is or is not a god?

Still refusing to acknowledge that inductive reasoning can and must yield real world usable results since that is all we ever really have to work with? To say it differently, I am as sure that there is no god as I am sure that there is no Santa Claus.

Cavalry Doc
09-05-2012, 21:00
Ah, the real reason you are here finally comes to light.

Not THE reason, but simply A reason.

What's the real reason you post here?

Religious folks include you. You need to lighten up and realize where you are in the universe. I'm guessing you are a 4.0 student, in a class full of 4.0's. Everyone gets a trophy.

Cavalry Doc
09-05-2012, 21:07
Still refusing to acknowledge that inductive reasoning can and must yield real world usable results since that is all we ever really have to work with? To say it differently, I am as sure that there is no god as I am sure that there is no Santa Claus.

Still refusing to believe that others have used inductive reasoning to come to entirely different conclusions? Bringing into question it's usefulness?

Most theists have used inductive reasoning, the sum total of all that others have told them and that they have personally experienced, and concluded that there is a god.

You have used inductive reasoning, the sum total of all that others have told you and that you have personally experienced, and concluded that there is no god.


Funny thing. You aren't that experienced at all. You have lived an infinitesimal amount of time compared to the age of the planet, let alone the age of the universe. You have traveled a miniscule amount on the planet, let alone the vastness of space. Your personal experience, and all the knowledge that you have learned from listening to others really doesn't amount to much when taken into the context of the origins of the universe. Most wise people understand that the more you know, the more you realize that you don't know. You are ironically unencumbered by such notions.

I find that humorous.