are "500rnd break-in period" a figure of speech [Archive] - Glock Talk

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raven11
11-07-2010, 18:30
I took my sig 1911 out to the range yesterday and i fired the first magazine i had one failure to go into battery on the third round , but after that hangup the next +250 were failure free

can i call my 1911 gtg or am i going to need 250rnds to call it a keeper?

btw.. i can see why everyone is telling me shooting .45ACP out of a 1911 is addicting, i'm going to start reloading pretty soon :supergrin:
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c316/raven1121/75305_459838293829_731033829_5349679_7621955_n.jpg

MD357
11-07-2010, 18:34
If you are going to carry it I'd put at least another 250 through it.

AZ Husker
11-07-2010, 18:39
"Break-in" is another term for mating parts. When I get a new gun, I watch tv and rack the slide over and over. You'll get the same results and save a ton on ammo.

pistolwrench
11-07-2010, 18:46
" I watch tv and rack the slide over and over."

Sanford and Son reruns.
Over and over......and over..........

:wavey:

Hokie1911
11-07-2010, 18:56
" I watch tv and rack the slide over and over."

Sanford and Son reruns.
Over and over......and over..........

:wavey:

"I'm calling you ugly, I could push your face in some dough and make gorilla cookies."

BWT
11-07-2010, 20:00
400 is minimum that I shoot before I'll carry on or off duty in an auto. If there are any failures I will shoot more and reconsider on carry if its more than just an anomaly. Revolver you can get by on shooting less most the time.

Texas Bulldog
11-07-2010, 20:09
were those 250rds your CARRY ammo?

If it wasn't then i personally wouldn't carry it yet. I would put AT LEAST 200rds of your choice of carry ammo through it on top of the 250 you already did and if it performs flawlessly, then i would call it good and carry it.

Absolute minimum for me is 500 of regular ball ammo with a ton of hand cycles while watching tv and THEN 200-300 of my carry ammo.

JOe

raven11
11-07-2010, 20:16
i can't carry, i live in Illinois:crying: it is just a range toy for me

it was 200 rnds of WWB and 50rnds of Remington

GVFlyer
11-07-2010, 20:36
i can't carry, i live in Illinois:crying: it is just a range toy for me

it was 200 rnds of WWB and 50rnds of Remington

It's a shame that residents of Illinois and Wisconsin don't enjoy the same rights as other American citizens.

nolt
11-07-2010, 20:36
"I'm calling you ugly, I could push your face in some dough and make gorilla cookies."

i remember that lol

Meeteetse
11-07-2010, 20:37
i can't carry, i live in Illinois:crying: it is just a range toy for me

it was 200 rnds of WWB and 50rnds of Remington


If it is a range gun, I wouldn't worry about "breaking it in". If it is for personal defense in your home, I would shoot as often as possible but given what you have already done, I wouldn't worry about a specific number of rounds. If you intend to shoot competitively, I would just keep practicing. Games are not life and death.

Personally I have Glocks that have a couple of hundred rounds through them and I feel perfectly fine and trust them completely. I have had a couple of 1911's that I wouldn't carry even after 1000+ down range. Slide racking is a lot cheaper.

brisk21
11-07-2010, 22:11
Glocks either run or they don't. A 1911 may jam a few times in the first 500 rounds or so and then be 100 percent relaible after that.

cole
11-07-2010, 22:32
Glocks either run or they don't. A 1911 may jam a few times in the first 500 rounds or so and then be 100 percent relaible after that.

Agreed. Metal slide and metal frame (e.g. 1911) = break in. Poly frame (e.g. Glock) = not.

Disregarded9-side
11-07-2010, 23:09
a ton of hand cycles while watching tv

I'm a 1911 newb, but I've recently read in a couple places that dry racking the slide could be bad for the pistol/cause additional wear (I guess if it didn't wear at all then there'd be no point of the breaking-in cycling)...any truth to that? After it's broken in do you avoid dry racking the slide? Thanks.

brisk21
11-07-2010, 23:30
I'm a 1911 newb, but I've recently read in a couple places that dry racking the slide could be bad for the pistol/cause additional wear (I guess if it didn't wear at all then there'd be no point of the breaking-in cycling)...any truth to that? After it's broken in do you avoid dry racking the slide? Thanks.


You may rack the slide with an empty chamber, just don't let it slam foreward full force on an empty chamber. I.E. don't "slingshot" the slide. You can pull it back and "ride" it foreward all you want.

Quack
11-08-2010, 05:54
i use a slurry (JB Bore Compound and oil) when racking the slide instead of firing for break-in. never had an issue and started to carry guns in as little as 200rds. for the most part either the gun runs or it doesn't. if it doesn't fix what's not working right away. the only guns that i had issues with were my EMP (tight extractor that i adjusted in the first 50rds) and my STI Edge (mags needed tuning) after i made the appropriate adjustments they have been 100% since then. my others ran 100% from the get go.

Contact
11-08-2010, 08:56
were those 250rds your CARRY ammo?

If it wasn't then i personally wouldn't carry it yet. I would put AT LEAST 200rds of your choice of carry ammo through it on top of the 250 you already did and if it performs flawlessly, then i would call it good and carry it.

Absolute minimum for me is 500 of regular ball ammo with a ton of hand cycles while watching tv and THEN 200-300 of my carry ammo.

JOe

At a price of $25-35 for a box of 20 self defense rounds and $35 bucks for a box of 100 range ammo , I have a hard time believing that MOST people (despite what they say) have invested upwards of $550 in ammo just to throw downrange before carrying their carry piece.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, to each his own and if you have the money, then by all means have at it.

For me personally, before I carry a gun for protection, I'll put a couple hundred rounds through it and maybe 2 boxes of carry ammo. Although most of my carry guns are 40s&w, which have never had a problem feeding HP ammo, since the round is already a flat nosed round.

Texas Bulldog
11-08-2010, 14:56
At a price of $25-35 for a box of 20 self defense rounds and $35 bucks for a box of 100 range ammo , I have a hard time believing that MOST people (despite what they say) have invested upwards of $550 in ammo just to throw downrange before carrying their carry piece.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, to each his own and if you have the money, then by all means have at it.

For me personally, before I carry a gun for protection, I'll put a couple hundred rounds through it and maybe 2 boxes of carry ammo. Although most of my carry guns are 40s&w, which have never had a problem feeding HP ammo, since the round is already a flat nosed round.


I carry Speer Gold Dot's in everything stashed around my house and carry (actually a few are loaded with Winchester Ranger but those are in 50rd boxes as well for 15-30 per box). Speer Gold dots are sold in 20 and 50rd boxes. WHY anyone would buy 20rd boxes is just stupid IMO since the price is so close for the 50rd box.

so yeah, 500rds of my carry ammo runs me anywhere from 200-300 bucks. that is if i run 500rds of just my carry ammo.

I usually run 200-300 of FMJ just to get the handgun cycling and "breaking it in"... i won't carry a gun with less than 200rds of my carry ammo though it with 100% perfection. so 200rds of my carry ammo runs 100-150 bucks.

this process takes a couple weeks to achieve but no big deal.

remember that your carry ammo isn't only about dependability, it will certainly have a different feel to it.

If someone shoots a couple of boxes of Blazer Brass through their gun and then buys 1 box of blah blah blah +p and then loads the gun ready for a bad day, i bet that first shot is going to be a surprise.

IMO it all comes down to "better safe than sorry" and "What is your life worth"

Id gladly sacrifice (and do) a few trips to the range of FMJ shooting, or a new set of grips or that 3rd gun until you have put 200rds of carry ammo in your gun you plan to wear daily.

simply my opinion

Check for yourself
http://www.sgammo.com/product/9mm-9x19/50rds-9mm-speer-gold-dot-124-p-le-hollow-point

woodrowNC
11-08-2010, 16:21
i do it, at least 250 of carry ammo, the rest ball. but hey, you gotta know. that said, it's been my expierence with production 1911's that they run from the start, or a prob shows up pretty quick. it kills me when i read on gng about some guy who puts a mag thru his new glock and calls it good.... because its a glock. unbelievable.

Jim S.
11-08-2010, 17:26
Glocks are very dependable and they either work or they don't.
Usually they work.
500 trouble free rounds and I'm confident in a Glock.
Many 1911's are very dependable too. Some are not.
If it is trouble free after at least 500 rounds and a few boxes of good quality carry ammo I am confident in the 1911 too.
I never rest on my guns being broken in and dependable as I shoot my carry guns often.
I also clean and inspect them after every time I shoot them.
A range toy or a target gun can be treated differently since your life does not depend on it.

Contact
11-08-2010, 20:56
I carry Speer Gold Dot's in everything stashed around my house and carry (actually a few are loaded with Winchester Ranger but those are in 50rd boxes as well for 15-30 per box). Speer Gold dots are sold in 20 and 50rd boxes. WHY anyone would buy 20rd boxes is just stupid IMO since the price is so close for the 50rd box.

so yeah, 500rds of my carry ammo runs me anywhere from 200-300 bucks. that is if i run 500rds of just my carry ammo.

I usually run 200-300 of FMJ just to get the handgun cycling and "breaking it in"... i won't carry a gun with less than 200rds of my carry ammo though it with 100% perfection. so 200rds of my carry ammo runs 100-150 bucks.

this process takes a couple weeks to achieve but no big deal.

remember that your carry ammo isn't only about dependability, it will certainly have a different feel to it.

If someone shoots a couple of boxes of Blazer Brass through their gun and then buys 1 box of blah blah blah +p and then loads the gun ready for a bad day, i bet that first shot is going to be a surprise.

IMO it all comes down to "better safe than sorry" and "What is your life worth"

Id gladly sacrifice (and do) a few trips to the range of FMJ shooting, or a new set of grips or that 3rd gun until you have put 200rds of carry ammo in your gun you plan to wear daily.

simply my opinion

Check for yourself
http://www.sgammo.com/product/9mm-9x19/50rds-9mm-speer-gold-dot-124-p-le-hollow-point

I agree, it's all about personal preference, and if you need more or less ammo through the gun to feel it's reliable, then that is what it is. No big deal. I've met (thankfully) just a couple people who have never fired carry ammo out of their carry gun. The range ammo is good for them and they feel that if the gun fires one ammo, that it will fire anything just as reliably. Thankfully those people are few and far between, but more power to them. :rofl:

And not to split hairs, but this is the 1911 forum, so I wasn't totaling up 9mm ammo.

woodrowNC
11-09-2010, 05:22
Glocks are very dependable and they either work or they don't.
Usually they work.
500 trouble free rounds and I'm confident in a Glock.
Many 1911's are very dependable too. Some are not.
If it is trouble free after at least 500 rounds and a few boxes of good quality carry ammo I am confident in the 1911 too.
I never rest on my guns being broken in and dependable as I shoot my carry guns often.
I also clean and inspect them after every time I shoot them.
A range toy or a target gun can be treated differently since your life does not depend on it.

agreed. for me, the carry ammo is 230 goldots in 5in and 4in barrels, and 185 gds in anything shorter, for the velocity. ammo to go regularly sells 50 rd boxes of goldots for 26/27 bucks. thats around 300 rds of carry ammo for a little over 200 bucks. cheap insurance.

MD357
11-09-2010, 10:18
At a price of $25-35 for a box of 20 self defense rounds and $35 bucks for a box of 100 range ammo , I have a hard time believing that MOST people (despite what they say) have invested upwards of $550 in ammo just to throw downrange before carrying their carry piece.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, to each his own and if you have the money, then by all means have at it.

For me personally, before I carry a gun for protection, I'll put a couple hundred rounds through it and maybe 2 boxes of carry ammo. Although most of my carry guns are 40s&w, which have never had a problem feeding HP ammo, since the round is already a flat nosed round.

Kind of exaggerating a bit aren't we? Nobody said you have to use premium SD ammo only.

Not only does shooting a MINIMUM of 500 rounds with your carry gun allow for reliability variables to expose themselves, but one will also become more familiar with that particular CCW so that shooting it and making hits become second nature. Which is extremely important in high stress situations IMO. :cool:

I've never heard a decent carry instructor advise otherwise.

woodrowNC
11-09-2010, 12:15
Kind of exaggerating a bit aren't we? Nobody said you have to use premium SD ammo only.

Not only does shooting a MINIMUM of 500 rounds with your carry gun allow for reliability variables to expose themselves, but one will also become more familiar with that particular CCW so that shooting it and making hits become second nature. Which is extremely important in high stress situations IMO. :cool:

I've never heard a decent carry instructor advise otherwise.

agreed again. like i said. cheap insurance. i want to know if my carry ammo functions.

BlayGlock
11-09-2010, 13:34
for the most part either the gun runs or it doesn't.

I agree with this. Usually if something has been wrong with my guns it has popped up in the first few magazines. I am not typically concerned with "break-in" like many seem to be. But then again I like to shoot my guns and I will run at least 300 rounds or more in the first range session unless I am out of time.

MJB
11-09-2010, 18:16
It's a shame that residents of Illinois and Wisconsin don't enjoy the same rights as other American citizens.

Yes it is. And my fellow idiot residents just re-elected the same idiot Governor. No chance of any CCW bills getting by him.

I need to move. :upeyes:

SIGShooter
11-09-2010, 20:23
500 range ammo

500 carry ammo

No, I don't do this all in one sitting. It gets done within a couple range trips.

I make sure I annotate if there are any malfunctions. What they are, when they occurred, if was gun or shooter induced. I've only ever had one gun fail me within my testing/break in…Glock 26.

BuckyP
11-09-2010, 21:04
500 range ammo

500 carry ammo

No, I don't do this all in one sitting. It gets done within a couple range trips.

I make sure I annotate if there are any malfunctions. What they are, when they occurred, if was gun or shooter induced. I've only ever had one gun fail me within my testing/break in…Glock 26.

I'm sorry sir, you must be mistaken. GLOCKS do NOT jam. You used bad ammo and was limp wristing it, and even then it didn't happen.



:tongueout:

Contact
11-10-2010, 11:12
Kind of exaggerating a bit aren't we? Nobody said you have to use premium SD ammo only.

Not only does shooting a MINIMUM of 500 rounds with your carry gun allow for reliability variables to expose themselves, but one will also become more familiar with that particular CCW so that shooting it and making hits become second nature. Which is extremely important in high stress situations IMO. :cool:

I've never heard a decent carry instructor advise otherwise.

Exaggerating what, exactly? I went off another members statement that his minimum was 500 rounds of ball ammo and then 2-300 rounds of his carry ammo. I was merely saying he is an exception to what MOST gun owners are like. Not every gun owner is a gun nut like the rest of us.

Personally, I've never seen a new gun perform flawlessly for the first 400 rounds and then start having problems (I'm sure someone, somewhere has, and I'm sure they'll be reading this thread and post about it LOL). In my experience, problems either present themselves right away (mechanical problems) or within a couple hundred rounds (pins rattling loose, etc), because by then the gun has seen enough shock and heat cycles to allow things to start moving around.

From folks I have talked to who have been in a gunfight, the first thing that hit them had nothing to do with the gun itself, but rather the fact that they were temporarily deaf because of not wearing any hearing protection (especially enclosed spaces like rooms). The last thing on their mind was how the gun handled in the gunfight vs. in the range.

A decent carry instructor stresses the importance of understanding how the gun is going to react, not how many rounds must be fired though it. If someone plans on carrying a 1911 and firing 500 rounds before they feel safe strapping the gun to their hip, more power to them. Personally, I don't think I need to put 62 magazines full of ammunition through my gun to understand the recoil, or prove it's reliability. As an instructor, a blanket statement of a 500 round minimum break-in for all carry guns is not something I would be willing to advise to my students, nor should any other decent instructor. With that said, if I wouldn't advise it to everyone, I'm not going to advise it to anyone. If I'm not going to tell a 65 year old lady with arthritis that she needs to load, aim, fire and reload her 5 shot S&W revolver 100 times, I'm not going to tell anyone else that they should. If that lady feels it's important to shoot 500 rounds, then nobody should question why she wants to do it, but I don't feel it's necessary.

Lastly, for those who say "Well yeah, but you don't do the whole thing in one sitting, you do it over a few trips." I would say that's a great idea as long as you already have a gun you are carrying, but a fair percentage of people who are getting carry guns do not currently own a gun. So they work at their jobs 5 days a week, have kids, have school, have a life, etc and can maybe get to the range for an hour or so every couple weeks. Never-mind the fact that times are tight and ammo is an added expense they have to factor in, it may take the average, non gun-nut person a couple/several months to put 500 rounds through a gun if they're lucky. Good luck getting your point across by telling them their shiny new gun needs to sit in the closet for a few months while they dole out several hundred more dollars for ammo and range time. So with all that said, if they feel comfortable with the gun, and believe it to be reliable, who am I or anyone else to tell them they're wrong?

kobel1up
11-10-2010, 12:39
I will agree with CONTACT on this one. I have a new Kimber pro carry II, I use it as my carry gun. I sold my g23 that was my carry gun so that I could get the Kimber. I cleaned it and loaded it, then in the holster it went for carry. Was I afraid it may not fire or jam, a little. I remember hearing someone say in a movie, "don't trust a gun you haven't shot". Now when you only have one gun you have a choice to make, carry a gun you haven't shot and hope for the best, or leave it at home. Just to let you know I shot it 2 days after I got it and it shoots real nice. Everyone needs to make their own choice on how many times they need to shoot their gun before they feel comfortable in carrying it. I shot 200 rnds of wwb, and 20 rnds of my carry ammo. I feel very confident in my gun, and will leave the rest up to God.

MD357
11-10-2010, 15:08
Exaggerating what, exactly? I went off another members statement that his minimum was 500 rounds of ball ammo and then 2-300 rounds of his carry ammo. I was merely saying he is an exception to what MOST gun owners are like. Not every gun owner is a gun nut like the rest of us.


Exaggerating the price. $550 doesn't equal 500rds of ammo.

Personally, I've never seen a new gun perform flawlessly for the first 400 rounds and then start having problems (I'm sure someone, somewhere has, and I'm sure they'll be reading this thread and post about it LOL). In my experience, problems either present themselves right away (mechanical problems) or within a couple hundred rounds (pins rattling loose, etc), because by then the gun has seen enough shock and heat cycles to allow things to start moving around.


Usually, but not always. Many acredited schools will tell you 500-1000 is a good number to eliminate variables and to become comfortable with their weapon.

A decent carry instructor stresses the importance of understanding how the gun is going to react, not how many rounds must be fired though it. If someone plans on carrying a 1911 and firing 500 rounds before they feel safe strapping the gun to their hip, more power to them. Personally, I don't think I need to put 62 magazines full of ammunition through my gun to understand the recoil, or prove it's reliability. As an instructor, a blanket statement of a 500 round minimum break-in for all carry guns is not something I would be willing to advise to my students, nor should any other decent instructor. With that said, if I wouldn't advise it to everyone, I'm not going to advise it to anyone. If I'm not going to tell a 65 year old lady with arthritis that she needs to load, aim, fire and reload her 5 shot S&W revolver 100 times, I'm not going to tell anyone else that they should. If that lady feels it's important to shoot 500 rounds, then nobody should question why she wants to do it, but I don't feel it's necessary.


I'm going to say that you're in the minimalist mindset in terms of training and to me that's dangerous. If that's what you teach then more power to you. Like I've stated, acredited instructors teach different. The 500-1000 round minimum is to again.... eliminate variables AND to create a level of comfort between someone and their CCW. Unfortunately there are those that think they will be proficient with a range session or two but that doesn't work well under periods of stress. Otherwise, you wouldn't see so many of those that go into harms way every day, train consistently. This is not to say that one needs to train constantly to defend themselves, it's they just should have a number of rounds under their belt with their chosen platform..... just like any skill.... it needs to be sharpened. Now before we go slippery-slope (like with the 65year old woman) one has to realize there are exceptions. However, one should train or practice to the best of their abilities as frequently as they can.

Lastly, for those who say "Well yeah, but you don't do the whole thing in one sitting, you do it over a few trips." I would say that's a great idea as long as you already have a gun you are carrying, but a fair percentage of people who are getting carry guns do not currently own a gun. So they work at their jobs 5 days a week, have kids, have school, have a life, etc and can maybe get to the range for an hour or so every couple weeks. Never-mind the fact that times are tight and ammo is an added expense they have to factor in, it may take the average, non gun-nut person a couple/several months to put 500 rounds through a gun if they're lucky. Good luck getting your point across by telling them their shiny new gun needs to sit in the closet for a few months while they dole out several hundred more dollars for ammo and range time. So with all that said, if they feel comfortable with the gun, and believe it to be reliable, who am I or anyone else to tell them they're wrong?

I understand the time, money and effort problems, but there's always coulda/shoulda/woulda in life. Some will be serious about learning basic skills, others will not. However, as an instuctor, you should never lower your standards to these kinds of excuses from able individuals. I'm glad the ones that taught me, never did. :cool:

SIGShooter
11-10-2010, 20:08
[QUOTE=MD357;16277322Many acredited schools will tell you 500-1000 is a good number to eliminate variables and to become comfortable with their weapon. [/QUOTE]


This^^^

More than a few instructors (Civilian and military alike) have repeated this mantra to me many, many times.

SIGShooter
11-10-2010, 20:10
I'm sorry sir, you must be mistaken. GLOCKS do NOT jam. You used bad ammo and was limp wristing it, and even then it didn't happen.



:tongueout:


HA!

This is where you're wrong!

My ammo was TOO GOOD! The Glock couldn't handle the truth!

:supergrin:

220 rounds…DOA…Right there on the very last round. 127 +P+.

Contact
11-10-2010, 21:36
Exaggerating the price. $550 doesn't equal 500rds of ammo.

The price of the ammo I came up with drawn up from Texas Bulldog saying he put a minimum of 500 rounds of ball ammo through his gun ($35 per hundred x 5 boxes = $175) and 200 rounds of his carry ammo (and since I haven't seen anyone around my area carry Speer Gold Dots in 50rnd boxes, I figured $25-35 per 20 rnds x 10 boxes = $250-350) $350 + $175 = $525 plus range time.


I'm going to say that you're in the minimalist mindset in terms of training and to me that's dangerous. If that's what you teach then more power to you. Like I've stated, acredited instructors teach different. The 500-1000 round minimum is to again.... eliminate variables AND to create a level of comfort between someone and their CCW. Unfortunately there are those that think they will be proficient with a range session or two but that doesn't work well under periods of stress. Otherwise, you wouldn't see so many of those that go into harms way every day, train consistently. This is not to say that one needs to train constantly to defend themselves, it's they just should have a number of rounds under their belt with their chosen platform..... just like any skill.... it needs to be sharpened. Now before we go slippery-slope (like with the 65year old woman) one has to realize there are exceptions. However, one should train or practice to the best of their abilities as frequently as they can.

I'm not in the minimalist mindset at all, this thread was a question from a member asking if we felt his gun was reliable. It was not a question regarding training whatsoever. It was him asking us (by my estimation) "The gun has put 250 flawless rounds downrange, do I really need to toss another 250 rounds of lead into the berm?" to which I replied with my opinion that if he feels it's reliable enough to carry and meets his standards, then it's reliable. Firearm reliability and user capability are 2 different animals.

MD357 changed the scope of the thread when he threw the training issue into the mix. The original poster was not asking if he had trained enough, he was asking if the gun was reliable enough. It's important to know the difference, and when you understand the difference, you'll understand why I gave the answer I gave.

I am not a proponent of minimalist training, but I also don't believe that anyone has to train 3 times a week to be comfortable with their firearm. I say that if someone is going to take on the responsibility of carrying a firearm to protect life, they should never become lax in their training, but training properly and firearm reliability (which is what the OP was asking about) are two separate issues altogether. Some of the officers I work with only shoot their firearms on qualification day, and to me that's a disservice, not only to themselves, but to every person they may have to one day protect. Other officers go to the range like it's a religious event, and to me that's a little overboard, but it's something they love to do, so who cares?

raven11
11-10-2010, 22:04
I'm not in the minimalist mindset at all, this thread was a question from a member asking if we felt his gun was reliable. It was not a question regarding training whatsoever. It was him asking us (by my estimation) "The gun has put 250 flawless rounds downrange, do I really need to toss another 250 rounds of lead into the berm?" to which I replied with my opinion that if he feels it's reliable enough to carry and meets his standards, then it's reliable. Firearm reliability and user capability are 2 different animals.

MD357 changed the scope of the thread when he threw the training issue into the mix. The original poster was not asking if he had trained enough, he was asking if the gun was reliable enough. It's important to know the difference, and when you understand the difference, you'll understand why I gave the answer I gave.


this thread went adrift since the last time I responded.. Contact hit the nail on the head. the reason i posted the thread was to ask 1911 owners if i needed to throw 500 rounds to know my 1911 is reliable or if my 250 failure free rounds already mean my 1911 works as designed.

about uses as i said before i live in Illinois so i can't CCW for home defense I have a Walther P99AS with night sights and a TLR-3 that i've had since i turned 21 and threw in upwards of 1,000 rounds through over time. the 1911 for me is just a range gun

MD357
11-10-2010, 23:39
MD357 changed the scope of the thread when he threw the training issue into the mix. The original poster was not asking if he had trained enough, he was asking if the gun was reliable enough. It's important to know the difference, and when you understand the difference, you'll understand why I gave the answer I gave.


Actually, you need to go back and re-read the thread. I understand the needs of the OP, been there done that, replied and he clarified his needs. I was replying to YOUR post about what you think most do or don't do with their carry piece and what you do. You said you put a couple hundred rounds and at most 2 boxes through a carry gun. Again, I've never heard a reputable instructor say this. Because they worry about reliability AND experience. In fact, I've never heard an instructor talk about hearing loss being a priority? Everything I've read involved keeping the person alive with shots on target under stress.


Either way, I then basically relayed that you are killing two birds with one stone. Whichever one is most important OR if both are important, reliability or experience it's up to you. I get that the OP is just looking for GTG factor for the range, I was just clarifying that not many instructors have the same philosophy as yourself.

Contact
11-11-2010, 07:49
Actually, you need to go back and re-read the thread. I understand the needs of the OP, been there done that, replied and he clarified his needs. I was replying to YOUR post about what you think most do or don't do with their carry piece and what you do. You said you put a couple hundred rounds and at most 2 boxes through a carry gun. Again, I've never heard a reputable instructor say this. Because they worry about reliability AND experience. In fact, I've never heard an instructor talk about hearing loss being a priority? Everything I've read involved keeping the person alive with shots on target under stress.


Either way, I then basically relayed that you are killing two birds with one stone. Whichever one is most important OR if both are important, reliability or experience it's up to you. I get that the OP is just looking for GTG factor for the range, I was just clarifying that not many instructors have the same philosophy as yourself.

I'm curious how many different instructors classes you've sat in on, rather than talking to on the internet. I never said that hearing loss was a priority in teaching the class, my point in that statement was that you can stand in a booth all you want and shoot at much as you want, but shooting umpteen hundred/thousand rounds will never compare to the punch in the mouth of the real deal. You're kind of making an assumption that I teach people to put a few hundred rounds through the gun, holster it and forget about ever shooting it again and I can assure you that's not the case whatsoever. There's a difference between checking firearm relibility, and becoming comfortable with the gun.

Most ranges dont allow drawing from concealment, firing from cover, moving while firing, reloading on the move, etc, so no, training at the range is not life saving skill honing, its just shooting holes in paper. With that said, no 8 hour cpl/ccw class requirement in the country can prepare someone for a gunfight, as the scope of the class is basic firearm safety and basic firearm law. Since you brought up instructors, I'm sure you mentioned it because you saw my signature, but just like you, I'm not impressed by something just because an almighty instructor said it. I've ran into a (thankfully) couple of instructors that I wouldn't feel comfortable letting them teach someone how to load a magazine, so do me a favor and instead of comparing my posts with other instructors, just read my posts for what they are: one mans opinion that you are more than welcome to disagree with. :cool:

Even though we're disagreeing on certian things here, as long as we're both here tomorrow then it was a good day! Be safe.

MD357
11-11-2010, 14:16
I'm curious how many different instructors classes you've sat in on, rather than talking to on the internet.

I'm not sure, definately more than a few. However, I'm not relaying a new and bold philosophy here and just "talking on the internet." I'm relaying something that is widely accepted.

my point in that statement was that you can stand in a booth all you want and shoot at much as you want, but shooting umpteen hundred/thousand rounds will never compare to the punch in the mouth of the real deal.

That's certainly not what you relayed now is it? Now, before someone start some FOF/CQB etc, wouldn't it be smart to have someone comfortable with their gun? Couldn't hurt to put a few rounds through it before now would it? Oh and wouldn't ya know it.... any problem variables would expose themselves too. Thus enabling the person to call it GTG (for a range? ) and learing something in process.

Most ranges dont allow drawing from concealment, firing from cover, moving while firing, reloading on the move, etc, so no, training at the range is not life saving skill honing, its just shooting holes in paper. With that said, no 8 hour cpl/ccw class requirement in the country can prepare someone for a gunfight, as the scope of the class is basic firearm safety and basic firearm law.

Kind of wandering into a red herring here but I surely agree. Shooting 500 rounds through a gun won't prepare someone for a gunfight. However, I'd wager they'd be MUCH better off and more comfy than the person that put just put a few boxes through it..... and they'll find out if it's reliable. :supergrin:

Since you brought up instructors, I'm sure you mentioned it because you saw my signature, but just like you, I'm not impressed by something just because an almighty instructor said it. I've ran into a (thankfully) couple of instructors that I wouldn't feel comfortable letting them teach someone how to load a magazine, so do me a favor and instead of comparing my posts with other instructors, just read my posts for what they are: one mans opinion that you are more than welcome to disagree with.

What I'm doing is highlighting what many instructors teach, I'd be saying the same thing no matter what your sig says.