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machman
11-10-2010, 18:16
Has anyone had any experience with 147gr bullets loaded to 125 PF in a stock G26. My load makes 127 PF through my G34. I have a match this weekend and don't really have time to do extensive practice/trial with it.

I use this load in my G17 and 34 with a #13 recoil spring.

Thanks for any help.

Boxerglocker
11-10-2010, 19:37
Too low PF for the stock springs in a G26, even for a G34 127 is too low in IMHO. I prefer 130 (5% added for cushion) minimum and have actually bumped my loads to 135.
If your lucky and they cycle... your most likely gonna have accuracy issues with the short barrel. What powder are you using and what OAL?

ron59
11-10-2010, 20:01
I know that 147s loaded to 125PF out of my G17 were horribly inaccurate... I boosted to 133'ish. So if you're only getting 125PF out of that short barrel... good luck on any 15+ yard shots.

I was going for a "gamer" load, until I realized this... decided to boost it up and learn how to deal with the recoil..

Boxerglocker
11-10-2010, 20:14
I know that 147s loaded to 125PF out of my G17 were horribly inaccurate... I boosted to 133'ish. So if you're only getting 125PF out of that short barrel... good luck on any 15+ yard shots.

I was going for a "gamer" load, until I realized this... decided to boost it up and learn how to deal with the recoil..

Even Team Glocks Sevigney has 147's traveling at 940 Fps minimum... that's 138 Pf.

machman
11-10-2010, 20:33
Thanks fellows. I appreciate your input.

This particular load is 147 BBI bullets, 3.5 gr Solo 1000, 1.130 OAL.

I have shot 115 gr Blazer and WWB ammo for years in until I started reloading this year.

Colorado4Wheel
11-10-2010, 20:44
Iffy for a G26. I load mine to 130PF for my 34 with a 15 lb spring.

Boxerglocker
11-10-2010, 20:47
Thanks fellows. I appreciate your input.

This particular load is 147 BBI bullets, 3.5 gr Solo 1000, 1.130 OAL.

I have shot 115 gr Blazer and WWB ammo for years in until I started reloading this year.

I loaded Solo last year with a 147g LFP 3.5g same OAL. Horrible accuracy until I bumped it up to 3.7g even then it wasn't great. If you really want to use your G26 this weekend just bump it up to 3.7 you'll do better than trying to stay at you current load with that gun. The problem with Solo is the inconsistency from batch to batch, but being you have a baseline with your G34 just bump it a little to get you by for the match.

1006
11-10-2010, 20:49
I think it will be hard to make minor in the G-26 with most bullets. My G-19 will not make minor with Winchester Bulk Pack White Box (walmart).

The Sevigney load mentioned above only makes a power factor of 127 in my G-19: it makes a PF or 135 in my G-34. So, I would guess that you need a load that makes at least 137 in G-34 to get 125 or better out of a G-26.

ron59
11-10-2010, 21:19
Even Team Glocks Sevigney has 147's traveling at 940 Fps minimum... that's 138 Pf.

1006 mentioned this... but that PF you mention out of David's gun is probably through his G34 which is going to boost the numbers by 3-4PF I'm guessing. Which puts it in about the same range as my 133PF in G17.

I know that when I was comparing readings with Solo-1000 with Steve (same load), my results were always lower than his, and he has a G34.

Boxerglocker
11-10-2010, 21:51
1006 mentioned this... but that PF you mention out of David's gun is probably through his G34 which is going to boost the numbers by 3-4PF I'm guessing. Which puts it in about the same range as my 133PF in G17.

I know that when I was comparing readings with Solo-1000 with Steve (same load), my results were always lower than his, and he has a G34.

That's true the bbl length will make a difference but still even more the issue with Solo... it is very inconsistent from batch to batch... I used 3 different one pound jars last year and each time had to rechrono. In the end I got tired of it and the last batch I just randonly loaded it relatively hot and that's actually when I decided that I liked it up at 138 PF with my G34.

I would guess that you need a load that makes at least 137 in G-34 to get 125 or better out of a G-26.

This is true, I checked the batch of TG 124g loads that chronoed out of my G34 for WA State IDPA Championship last year in my G19 which I brought along as a back-up.

G34, 1110 fps average (SD 4) with a 124g FMJ = 138 PF
G19, 1064 fps average (SD 3) with a 124g FMJ = 132 PF

machman
11-11-2010, 06:30
When you guys are saying "bad/horrible accuracy" are you talking about the bullet not hitting where you are aiming, or are you talking about group size?

I guess I have always used the logic, that if the same bullets leaves the same barrel at the same velocity, then grouping will be fairly consistant.

ron59
11-11-2010, 06:47
When you guys are saying "bad/horrible accuracy" are you talking about the bullet not hitting where you are aiming, or are you talking about group size?

I guess I have always used the logic, that if the same bullets leaves the same barrel at the same velocity, then grouping will be fairly consistant.
I can give you pictures. This was late last year when I realized that while my load was nice and soft and easy to shoot... my accuracy with it was terrible. So I did some testing. On the same day, I shot 3 different loads:

1) WWB
2) My Solo 1000 load, which was right around 123-125PF (I forget now)
3) A TiteGroup load, which was closer to 132PF

The pictures are attached, and are in the order I listed them.

You will notice, that the WWB and TG groups are WAY better than the Solo 1000 group (the middle one). Realize, this is not a slam against Solo, because when I boosted it to 132PF, that the group with it was better than any of these. The point is that with that heavy bullet... if you don't get it up to speed it's all over the place. My group here looks more like a shotgun group than a pistol group AT SEVEN YARDS.

That TiteGroup group not being centered is my fault, not the load. When I shot these, I hadn't spent nearly as much time practicing tight group shooting as I should have (and have been doing since). So while the WWB and TG groups aren't dead center... they are at least fairly tight groups. I believe I shot the groups in the order that they're displayed also. I do NOT think the reason for the bad Solo group was me... and this wasn't the first time I had done this testing with that load, just the first time I took pictures. Yeah... I'm done with trying to shoot 147s at 125PF type velocity, my requirements are 133'ish, or nothing.

I think I might have "busted" your theory. I guess I'd advise you to do what I did... start doing some tests with the goal of getting *measurable* metrics, as I did. This little test certainly opened my eyes. And to think.... I shot in competitions for about 5 months with that crappy load. :faint:

http://rons-web.com/photo/snaps/WWB-7yards.jpghttp://rons-web.com/photo/snaps/Solo-125PF-7yards.jpg
http://rons-web.com/photo/snaps/TG-132PF-7yards.jpg

machman
11-11-2010, 07:27
WOW. Thanks Ron. I am sold.

ron59
11-11-2010, 07:32
WOW. Thanks Ron. I am sold.

NP, glad I could shed some light.

MarkTX
11-11-2010, 08:09
Has anyone had any experience with 147gr bullets loaded to 125 PF in a stock G26. My load makes 127 PF through my G34. I have a match this weekend and don't really have time to do extensive practice/trial with it.

I use this load in my G17 and 34 with a #13 recoil spring...


Your only real concern here is if the G26 will function reliably -since I doubt your going to a sanctioned match with chrono testing and all. But given the numbers you have here I would not trust a stock G26 to function with that load. If you had time to test it, it might work -but don't count on it until you test it.

My G27 (stock springs) surprised me a few months back when I tested it with very lite 40 minor loads. My G35 would not function with the stock recoil spring, but the G27 ran fine -go figure.

I will also second what others have said here, bump up your load even for your gamer guns. That 13# recoil spring will make even 135pf seem soft compared to factory ammo. Also, remember in IDPA you only have to have a load that makes power factor in the longest legal barrel for that division. So even if you were under with the G26 you could have it clock legal out of your G34 and keep shooting the G26.

ron59
11-11-2010, 09:04
So even if you were under with the G26 you could have it clock legal out of your G34 and keep shooting the G26.

While true... just because it's "legal" doesn't mean it's good ammo. You might not have seen my post with the photos, but I had been running a light "gamer" load for several months before I started suspecting I had accuracy issues. When I finally got around to test it... ugh.

Velocity/recoil isn't the only part of the equation. If you can't hit the broad side of the barn with the bullet... light recoiling isn't going to be of much use.

jmorris
11-11-2010, 09:11
The load I use is 3.1 of VV N310 with a plated 147 @ 1.160” . It makes just over 130 out of a 34 and 17 and still over PF from the 19. I never chronographed the 26 but it runs like a sewing machine with that load. The 19 and 26 are stock the 34 and 17 have different springs.

GioaJack
11-11-2010, 09:26
http://rons-web.com/photo/snaps/Solo-125PF-7yards.jpg

Well no wonder you had bad groups... you had your target turned sideways. Boy, rookies, ya just can't teach 'em nothin'. :dunno:


Jack

dudel
11-11-2010, 09:46
http://rons-web.com/photo/snaps/Solo-125PF-7yards.jpg

Well no wonder you had bad groups... you had your target turned sideways. Boy, rookies, ya just can't teach 'em nothin'. :dunno:


Jack

Homie, that's how you set the target when you hold the gun sideways.

Old guys, can't teach them anything. :supergrin:

Don

Boxerglocker
11-11-2010, 11:09
Also, remember in IDPA you only have to have a load that makes power factor in the longest legal barrel for that division. So even if you were under with the G26 you could have it clock legal out of your G34 and keep shooting the G26.


Velocity/recoil isn't the only part of the equation. If you can't hit the broad side of the barn with the bullet... light recoiling isn't going to be of much use.

That is true Mark however unless I'm mistaken with the last rule change. Didn't they make it the competitors responsibility to provide a gun legal for the division that they compete in to use for the purposes of chronoing at a santioned match.

Like I said, I've learned that I now prefer the higher PF loads in my primary game gun and the assurance that my loads will make PF in my back-uo too.

Driving all day overnight for a match in Oregon, Idaho or elsewhere and having you gun break down sucks. Not having a legal backup with you makes is worse.

jmorris
11-11-2010, 12:13
That is true Mark however unless I'm mistaken with the last rule change. Didn't they make it the competitors responsibility to provide a gun legal for the division that they compete in to use for the purposes of chronoing at a santioned match.


It doesn't have to be your pistol but finding folks that would jump on the opportunity to shoot someone else’s reloads in their pistol is not real good.

Colorado4Wheel
11-11-2010, 12:41
I can shoot a group standing freestyle @ 25 yds all in the A zone. A little bigger then my fist. My Solo load is @ 130PF. This is with my cast 155 gr bullets and a KKM barrel. I am not really sure what the problem is with some people groups. It sucks that Solo is such a tough powder in some ways. Lot to lot variations. Poor accuracy. etc. I have not had these issues. I seldom shoot groups but when I do they have been OK. I tend to shoot better freestyle then off the bench. So thats why I mention that they are freestyle.

GioaJack
11-11-2010, 13:01
FREESTYLE is skiing... OFFHAND is pistol shooting! Damn rookies.

Isn't it bad enough that because of you young people we can no longer sing, 'don we now our gay apparel?'.

Quit screwin' with the language. :whistling:


Jack

Bob2223
11-11-2010, 13:20
FREESTYLE is skiing... OFFHAND is pistol shooting! Damn rookies.

Isn't it bad enough that because of you young people we can no longer sing, 'don we now our gay apparel?'.

Quit screwin' with the language. :whistling:


Jack

You can dress up in that kinda stuff if ya want or even sing about it.
No need to post pictures or tell us about it. :upeyes:

Dont forget your toboggin cap ! :supergrin:



Bob

ron59
11-11-2010, 13:25
I can shoot a group standing freestyle @ 25 yds all in the A zone. A little bigger then my fist. My Solo load is @ 130PF. This is with my cast 155 gr bullets and a KKM barrel. I am not really sure what the problem is with some people groups. It sucks that Solo is such a tough powder in some ways. Lot to lot variations. Poor accuracy. etc. I have not had these issues. I seldom shoot groups but when I do they have been OK. I tend to shoot better freestyle then off the bench. So thats why I mention that they are freestyle.

Steve... if you're talking about my "Solo group", I don't think you read my post thoroughly. I mentioned in it that group was Solo loaded to 123-125PF. When I bumped my Solo load up to 130PF, GREAT GROUP. My point is... I haven't seen people *****ing about Solo in this thread, not sure which post you're attempting to dispute? This hasn't been a Solo-bashing thread, more a 147gr-bullet-at-125PF-isn't-accurate thread... regardless of powder used. I *imagine* if I loaded the WSF I'm using down to 125PF I'd see similar results? I could be wrong, but I'm not even going to try it.

When I first published these results last year, I had a few people chime in and say that my problem was likely due to the low PF with that heavy bullet. Not that I was using Solo that slow, just that, "it was slow".

Boxerglocker
11-11-2010, 13:41
It doesn't have to be your pistol but finding folks that would jump on the opportunity to shoot someone else’s reloads in their pistol is not real good.

No it doesn't and finding one other than the reason you gave, can be even harder because of the fact that if as a competitor are you gonna let someone else slide and possibly beat you out shooting soft reloads, that they may or may not have know make PF out of thier own gun? Now if that happened with factory ammo, I would give the benefit of the doubt and most likely say yes use my G34 if your G26 did not make PF with WWB. If your a reloader though that's your responsibility though. We had several people DQ'd at WA State IDPA this year for not making PF with thier own reloads.

Colorado4Wheel
11-11-2010, 15:07
Steve... if you're talking about my "Solo group", I don't think you read my post thoroughly. I mentioned in it that group was Solo loaded to 123-125PF. When I bumped my Solo load up to 130PF, GREAT GROUP. My point is... I haven't seen people *****ing about Solo in this thread, not sure which post you're attempting to dispute? This hasn't been a Solo-bashing thread, more a 147gr-bullet-at-125PF-isn't-accurate thread... regardless of powder used. I *imagine* if I loaded the WSF I'm using down to 125PF I'd see similar results? I could be wrong, but I'm not even going to try it.

When I first published these results last year, I had a few people chime in and say that my problem was likely due to the low PF with that heavy bullet. Not that I was using Solo that slow, just that, "it was slow".

I don't know. My brain is fried.

machman
11-11-2010, 15:08
We have had Chrono stages for the last several years at the Alabama State IDPA. No Chrono at MS or GA state this year.

ron59
11-11-2010, 15:43
I don't know. My brain is fried.

And my posts probably don't help, as I tried to put too much info in them? LOL.

Anyway... short story is, we haven't been complaining about Solo groups, just the issues of a heavy bullet at a low PF, regardless of powder. It just so happened that the OP is using Solo, and my "bad groups" were using Solo, but my bad groups were due to my low PF, not the powder itself.

When I got my Solo load to the 130+PF range... good groups.

Colorado4Wheel
11-11-2010, 16:09
And my posts probably don't help, as I tried to put too much info in them? LOL.

Anyway... short story is, we haven't been complaining about Solo groups, just the issues of a heavy bullet at a low PF, regardless of powder. It just so happened that the OP is using Solo, and my "bad groups" were using Solo, but my bad groups were due to my low PF, not the powder itself.

When I got my Solo load to the 130+PF range... good groups.

I gotcha now. Brain is still fried but at least I understand what your saying. Groups with 147 gr bullets can be a real problem not only with some powders but also some pistols. I am sure it has to do with the rate of twist and all that stuff.

machman
11-11-2010, 16:30
So with Solo 1000, what would be a good place to start to make 130 PF through a G26 with 147gr bullets? 4.0gr?

ron59
11-11-2010, 20:39
So with Solo 1000, what would be a good place to start to make 130 PF through a G26 with 147gr bullets? 4.0gr?

Honestly, that's gonna be a tough call. I "gave up" on Solo 1000 after I got my SECOND 8lb jug of it. I literally could not even get a load over 125PF.

Now... PART of that is that it is very temperature sensitive. It will be much SLOWER in the summer heat than it will be in the winter. My previous jug I chrono'ed last December, and got 130 easily. This jug I was chrono'ing in summer and could not get 125PF. Steve indicated that he's also seen a 5PF difference (same load) from winter to summer. Steve also shoots a G34 where I shoot the G17 (shorter barrel so I lose probably 3-4PF compared to him with same load).

The second issue is the inconsistency between their "lots". This latest lot has been reported by many to be slower than their previous lots. Frustrating. I am going to wait until the weather turns cold here again and see what sort of reading I can get. If I can get 130PF again, I'll just shoot the stuff in the winter for practice and such.

You're just gonna have to work it up with a chrono and see what you can get. If you have one of the newer lots, you may not even be able to get 130 out of it.

Let us know what you find.

Boxerglocker
11-11-2010, 21:02
I used to load 4.2 with a 124 FMJ... I have loaded 3.8 with a 147 and the accuracy became better. I would start at 3.8 and work up from there. Solo is so inconsistent you really need to watch for pressure signs.

machman
11-11-2010, 21:11
I loaded up 147's with 3.8 and some with 4.0. I plan on testing them tomorrow through the choro and on paper through my G26 and G34. I will let you guys know. I will also test my 3.5gr loads that gave me 127PF.

1006
11-12-2010, 11:05
I am betting on the 4.0 load/147. I gave up on the Solo 1000, due to its lack of consistency, and temperature sensitivity. I had to bump all of my loads up for my latest Solo 1000 purchase in order to get the same velocity. I chronoed loads on a cold day and got much faster velocity than on a warm day.

machman
11-12-2010, 12:27
I have been cautioned by some fellow shooters about exceeding 3.8gr of Solo 1000 with 147gr bullets. It has me a little nervous about shooting the 4.0 gr loads.

1006
11-12-2010, 19:19
Well, maybe another powder is in order. I personally like Red Dot. It is dirty; though, it won't stop a glock. Red Dot, Unique, Universal, Bulls Eye, W 231, Tite Group are all good for what you are doing and the Reload Data is published accurately. I went with Red Dot because it is very predictable and fills the case up more than half way with every load I use. Oh, and it is CHEAP.

Boxerglocker
11-12-2010, 19:38
I have been cautioned by some fellow shooters about exceeding 3.8gr of Solo 1000 with 147gr bullets. It has me a little nervous about shooting the 4.0 gr loads.

Again that's the problem with Solo... the reality is no one really knows as there is little data and it varies from lot to lot produced, have a look through this post and the linked ones to it.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=107769&st=0&p=1318682&hl=solo%20147&fromsearch=1&#entry1318682

Colorado4Wheel
11-12-2010, 19:39
I have been cautioned by some fellow shooters about exceeding 3.8gr of Solo 1000 with 147gr bullets. It has me a little nervous about shooting the 4.0 gr loads.

You need to chrono it. I am loading 3.2 grs with my 155 gr lead. Not at all your load as it's lead vs jacketed. Solo varies so much lot to lot that you really need to chrono it to know where you stand. I have talked to tech guy for Solo and he basically has said if your not exceeding the velocity they publish with the powder then your not exceeding the pressure either. I think you need to use common sence with that statement. So with your 147 gr bullets I would not try pushing beyond 135 PF give or take a little with a 4.4ish barrel.

machman
11-12-2010, 19:53
Here are my 5 shot results with 3.8gr Solo 1000, 147gr BBI bullets, 1.130 OAL

G26 839 fps, 123 PF
G17 877 fps, 129 PF
G34 919 fps, 135 PF

Also, my accuracy did increase a good bit with the 3.8gr vs the 3.5gr loads.

1006
11-12-2010, 20:05
Here is the deal: you can check all of your cases for signs of pressure, measure the case web expansion, look at the flat primers, and so on. But, the 9mm does not come apart gradually it happens all at once. It is a sturdy case but when the powder's limit is reached, it will spike in pressure.

So, if you are feeling unsafe, maybe you should just shoot the longer barreled gun or just buy a different powder. We are not trying to rag on you--just don't want you to get hurt. Most likely you won't--but, there is risk when going of the charts.

machman
11-12-2010, 20:19
Here is the deal: you can check all of your cases for signs of pressure, measure the case web expansion, look at the flat primers, and so on. But, the 9mm does not come apart gradually it happens all at once. It is a sturdy case but when the powder's limit is reached, it will spike in pressure.

So, if you are feeling unsafe, maybe you should just shoot the longer barreled gun or just buy a different powder. We are not trying to rag on you--just don't want you to get hurt. Most likely you won't--but, there is risk when going of the charts.

Gotcha. I plan on switching back to Tite Group. Thanks for all the info guys. You have been a big help.

Boxerglocker
11-12-2010, 20:32
Gotcha. I plan on switching back to Tite Group. Thanks for all the info guys. You have been a big help.

I wouldn't be too optimistic about making PF in a G26 with any traditional game gun powder... TG, Solo.... especially with a 147 bullet.

You could stick with the Solo for you 147 loads in your G34 and just get a pound of Power Pistol or something equivalent for those short barrel loads.

I made the switch to strictly 124g bullets just for this reason... same load for all my guns... I use a PP backed 124 JHP for SD practice loads too.

1006
11-12-2010, 20:33
I like that idea--have fun

Power Pistol was made for the task.

machman
11-15-2010, 20:04
Here is a photo of the different loads off hand at 25 yards. Both loads are 147gr BBI, mixed brass, Solo 1000, 1.130 OAL. 3.5gr on left and 3.8gr on right.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3646/img1287s.jpg

Boxerglocker
11-15-2010, 20:12
Here is a photo of the different loads off hand at 25 yards. Both loads are 147gr BBI, mixed brass, Solo 1000, 1.130 OAL. 3.5gr on left and 3.8gr on right.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3646/img1287s.jpg

What PF is the 3.8 load?

machman
11-15-2010, 20:15
What PF is the 3.8 load?

G34 919 fps, 135 PF (5 shot average)

Boxerglocker
11-15-2010, 20:24
G34 919 fps, 135 PF (5 shot average)

Yeah, thats about right along the lines I had when I loaded the 147g LFP with 3.7g

Those pics don't lie, significant accuracy increase.

ron59
11-15-2010, 20:36
Here is a photo of the different loads off hand at 25 yards. Both loads are 147gr BBI, mixed brass, Solo 1000, 1.130 OAL. 3.5gr on left and 3.8gr on right.



I am NOT being a jerk here... but remember you said:
I guess I have always used the logic, that if the same bullets leaves the same barrel at the same velocity, then grouping will be fairly consistant theory. Actually... I'm glad you went through this exercise. For me, it helped verify my results. And I do (well, did) agree with your logic... Until I experienced this myself, I would have never guessed the accuracy could be that bad. Taught me to forget about "gamer" loads, without full power, you won't have good accuracy.

Colorado4Wheel
11-15-2010, 21:23
Here is a photo of the different loads off hand at 25 yards. Both loads are 147gr BBI, mixed brass, Solo 1000, 1.130 OAL. 3.5gr on left and 3.8gr on right.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3646/img1287s.jpg

And what was your best group with a known good load? It's fine to post a bad group but what are you capable of shooting on the same day with the same gun at the same time.

1006
11-15-2010, 21:35
The Solo 1000 powder might do something that I am not knowledgeable enough to be aware of, but I have never had any powder in a pistol at 25 yards or less exhibit a loss of accuracy due to light loads. If load was strong enough to cycle the gun -- it was accurate.

I would put the gun on a rest for an accuracy trial.

Boxerglocker
11-15-2010, 21:37
And what was your best group with a known good load? It's fine to post a bad group but what are you capable of shooting on the same day with the same gun at the same time.

Not to be argumentative here Steve, but does it really matter? Several have posted the merits of bumping the load up above 130 Pf as opposed to hovering the 125 mark. I think the machman has illustrated the point beautifully with those, what appear to be 10 X 10 inch targets at 25 yards.
There is a definite improvement in grouping with the bumped up load. 8 shots on the 3.8g target look to be within 2.5 inches if you discount the 2 lower ones as flyers. Not bad for anyone shooting freehand with a Glock 34 at 25 yards if you ask me.

Colorado4Wheel
11-15-2010, 21:50
I just would not put much stock in only two groups shot freehand @25 yds. I do it myself and there are days that I can't be consistent at all like that. So I use the 25yd freehand stuff to confirm my load doesn't totally suck not to compare two loads that are similiar. The higher charge does look better but will it look like that if you do it 3 more times?

Boxerglocker
11-15-2010, 22:02
I just would not put much stock in only two groups shot freehand @25 yds. I do it myself and there are days that I can't be consistent at all like that. So I use the 25yd freehand stuff to confirm my load doesn't totally suck not to compare two loads that are similiar. The higher charge does look better but will it look like that if you do it 3 more times?

Good point, I would like to see it rested at 15 and 25 yards on a target with a point of reference for aim myself.

Colorado4Wheel
11-15-2010, 22:21
Good point, I would like to see it rested at 15 and 25 yards on a target with a point of reference for aim myself.

Bingo. Blank cardboard, 25 yds, freehand. Don't know his current skill level with a pistol either. I suck at it so that is not a dig.

GioaJack
11-15-2010, 22:42
An often used technique in teaching someone to bullseye shooting is to turn the target around so the blank backing is facing the shooter.

When shooting for group a inexperienced shooter invariably jerks the trigger as the front sight figure-eights through the 'X', or aiming point. By having no discernible aim point the shooter concentrates more on sight picture, (front blade with equal-distance in real blade), breath control and trigger control. The impetus to jerk the trigger at a precise point is eliminated and grouping rapidly improves.

One would think that although there may be grouping they would be haphazard on the paper but quite the opposite is true. If the target paper is defined from the target backing, at the very least different shade of color, the eye automatically defines the center without any conscious thought. The theory is exactly the same as the eye automatically finding the center of a peep sight. Learning to shoot bullseye develops skills that translate well into other shooting disciplines.

Since there are many, many variables in off-hand shooting, the first and foremost being concentration, it can be very difficult to make initial determinations of accuracy when comparing similar loads. The use of a rest, sandbags, etc. is more likely to give a more accurate representation.


Jack

Colorado4Wheel
11-16-2010, 05:31
Aim small hit small, aim big hit big. I have found a aiming point to be a important part of getting good groups. For 15yd stuff I shoot one bullet and aim at that hole. 25yd is the edge of my eyesight so that is harder for me.

ron59
11-16-2010, 05:46
The Solo 1000 powder might do something that I am not knowledgeable enough to be aware of, but I have never had any powder in a pistol at 25 yards or less exhibit a loss of accuracy due to light loads. If load was strong enough to cycle the gun -- it was accurate.

I would put the gun on a rest for an accuracy trial.

You didn't read the whole thread?

Look at Post #7. I shot from a bench rest 3 different loads. AT SEVEN YARDS!!
WWB (115gr) at 130'ish PF
Solo 1000 @ 123-125PF
TiteGroup @ 130-133PF

The Solo group looks like shotgun blast, not a pistol group. The WWB was practically a ragged hole. The TG wasn't bad. But yeah.. the Solo plain sucked.

I had done this SAME test, just using WWB and Solo on a previous day, same results. I thought maybe it was something wrong with my reloading process, so I reloaded up a batch with TG and shot them (this practice day). Those 3 groups were shot the same day.
I had actually created a thread about this issue, but that thread has since been archived.

Within a few weeks I created ANOTHER THREAD, which showed my group after I had boosted my Solo load up to 131PF.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165565
Group? One ragged hole.

I believe you are laboring under the same notion the OP of this thread was. Yes, the lower load cycled my gun just fine. But it will not be accurate. I think the OPs test shows that also. When I posted my FIRST thread I was asking why it would be inaccurate... several chimed in and told me 147s will be inaccurate at low velocities. My opinion, at least with a 147gr bullet.... if you're shooting it at 125'ish PF, you're gonna have accuracy problems. I won't speak for 115gr/124gr recipes.

Prove me wrong.

1006
11-16-2010, 20:54
I read it all -- I just have not experienced the phenomena . But, my heavy bullets with Solo 1000 are 158 grain lead sized for a 9mm. I have not tried jacketed 147s.

I don't doubt what you are saying.

machman
11-17-2010, 09:22
I am with you Ron. My experiment has made me believe that there is something to this. I was pretty skeptical until I tried this for myself. I have been shooting IDPA for 10 years and have made it to Expert in SSP. I have the ability to shoot a pretty decent group. I do plan on experimenting more on this subject and I will check my loads from now on with hits on paper.