How 'tactical' is a 18.5 inch double? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Deaf Smith
11-12-2010, 17:56
Saw a Savage/Stevens 311A 18.5 inch 12 for sale at a pawnshop. $300.

It was very tight, excellent condition,and whomever did the barrel shortening (I doubt 18.5 was the origional length) did a very professional job with an excellent bead front sight.

So, if you add choak tubes or vang comp the barrels, and embed a good white light with pressure switch into the forend stock, does that make it tactical?

Deaf

Jon_R
11-12-2010, 18:09
You could add all that stuff if you wanted to. It is tactical enough as is to cause people to stop breathing. :whistling:

I think it will serve you well as is for typical home defense. I might add a shell holder to the stock for a couple extra rounds just in case your 2 was not enough.

Critias
11-12-2010, 19:37
How "tactical" does it have to be?

DPris
11-12-2010, 20:48
The barrel walls may or may not be thick enough to accommodate screw-in chokes, and a year or so back one of Vang's guys told me they can't do their internal work on double barrels.
The light would be.....questionable.

Otherwise, you'd have a decent two-shot coachgun.
How "tactical" that is would be up to your definition of tactical.
Denis

MrMurphy
11-13-2010, 00:59
Old school doorknocker. Tactical or not, that's a fighting gun.

DPris
11-13-2010, 12:05
I have the "police" 311R, great for certain applications, but I don't call it "tactical".
I do call it short & handy.
Denis

Spiffums
11-13-2010, 15:49
Just duct tape a flashlight with a slide on switch on it and your good to go........

aippi
11-13-2010, 15:58
I have the word "Tactical" in my company name and I don't understand the implications of it any more then most people on here. The best meaning is what each of you think it means.

I am guessing from your post that your meaning is that the weapon has to have certain features to be a Tactical Shotgun. So for you that weapon does not fit. However, for me it would. In fact that type of double barrel is KISS and the clown that messes up and gets on the muzzle end doesn't give two ships what you have mounted on it. He only knows he has just screwed up and has two 12ga barrels pionting at his head. He is going to do what you say and call you Sir while he is doing it. Or he is going to be an idiot and will removed from the gene pool.

If the weapon fits your need and the intended application you have for it then go for it. Please don't get caught up in this Tactical fad and think you need a lot of mess on a shotgun. Hundreds of thousands of these "Tactical Shotguns" have been sold in the past years but there are more homes that have a simple single shot or SXS or a pump sporting model and that is their HD shotgun.

22highcaps
11-13-2010, 19:21
Could you use it for "tactical" (ie,HD) purpose?

Sure, but there are better choices. Why any one would limit themselves to two rounds before reloading is beyond me.

Njanear
11-13-2010, 20:20
Are you trying to make it look like this Stoeger?

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger_double_defense.php

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/images/double_defense_large_blue_12.jpg

Deaf Smith
11-13-2010, 22:29
Njanear,

I was thinking more of the surefire being embedded in the forend like the 870 Surefire lights that are in the pump.

And maybe an Ashely 'big dot' for the front bead. And I sure would love to see a grip safety that made it drop safe (for we all know an AD/ND with a 12 gauge would be catastrophic! And choak tubes or vang comp the barrels! And ejectors instead of extractors! If H&R can make a $80 single shot with them, why not a double?

Adding rails and gizmos would just complicate the matter.

And guys, yep I plunked down some lay-away money and intend on shortning the stock to make a 'bantam' stock (and still keep well withing the 26 OAL legalities!) Still fired from the shoulder as I've fired 'cruiser' 12s and don't like them at all.

Deaf

DPris
11-14-2010, 00:17
I think you're either seriously kidding or seriously doomed to great disappointment.
Denis

m24shooter
11-14-2010, 12:14
"Tactical" today tends to be a marketing term. Call something "Tactical" it automatically is better. The only way to top it is to call it Tier 1, Operator Grade, or say it's in use with the SEALs. I'm surprise Viagra isn't called "Tactical" at this point.
Tactical really refers to how you use something. The old doubles were tactical back when a modern sidearm was a six gun that you had to keep the hammer on empty chamber with. They worked then, and they still work. As said, it will cause a person to lay down for a while and bleed and eventually stop breathing. Sometimes really fast.
Take a look at the video of Clint Smith running a double gun or single shot and you will see just how tactical you can be with a 19th century scattergun.

David Armstrong
11-14-2010, 12:53
I don't see much need to add assorted tacti-cool doo-dads to the gun. The 311 was used by NYPD detectives for years without any need for mods.

B Coyote
11-14-2010, 17:42
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tactical

Definition of TACTICAL
1
: of or relating to combat tactics: as a (1) : of or occurring at the battlefront <a tactical defense> <a tactical first strike> (2) : using or being weapons or forces employed at the battlefront <tactical missiles> b of an air force : of, relating to, or designed for air attack in close support of friendly ground forces
2
a : of or relating to tactics: as (1) : of or relating to small-scale actions serving a larger purpose (2) : made or carried out with only a limited or immediate end in view b : adroit in planning or maneuvering to accomplish a purpose
— tac·ti·cal·ly\-k(ə-)lē\ adverb
Examples of TACTICAL

1. They gained a tactical advantage by joining with one of their competitors.
2. He made a serious tactical error.
3. The planes provided tactical air support for the soldiers on the ground.

First Known Use of TACTICAL
1570

Related to TACTICAL
Synonyms: advisable, desirable, judicious, politic, prudent, expedient, wise
Antonyms: impolitic, imprudent, inadvisable, inexpedient, injudicious, unwise
Related Words: advantageous, beneficial, profitable; useful, utilitarian; feasible, possible, practicable, practical; opportune, seasonable, timely; opportunistic, self-seeking
Near Antonyms: impractical, profitless, unfeasible, unprofitable; inopportune, unseasonable, untimely

Rhymes with TACTICAL
practical


So, it seems to me that "tactical" is up to you, not the gun.

bc

ADK_40GLKr
11-14-2010, 19:20
Trying to be diplomatic here - Doesn't tactical have to do with how the weapon is used, not how it's pimped out? (Oops - didn't succeed - OH well!) When I was a lad... (Yes, grampaw?) tactical was tying the bottom of your holster to your leg, so you could draw your cap-pistol faster.

Deaf Smith
11-14-2010, 21:04
I don't see much need to add assorted tacti-cool doo-dads to the gun. The 311 was used by NYPD detectives for years without any need for mods.


But david, has not the NYPD gone to more, uh, 'tactical' stuff like Glocks and Mossie shotguns instead of 6 shot S&W revolvers and SxS scatterguns?

Deaf

DPris
11-15-2010, 00:31
You want to go "modern", go modern. No problem whatsoever there.
But, trying to do what you're suggesting to a 311 is nothing more than silly.
Take a .38 caliber S&W Model 10, add night sights? Well....can be done.
Weld on a light mount? Can be done.
Sleeve the barrel, modify a couple internal parts, and install a custom made 9-shot .22 Mag cylinder, to make it more "tactical"?
Just buy a Glock.
Not much difference between that & the idea posed above.
Denis

ET.
11-15-2010, 09:36
But david, has not the NYPD gone to more, uh, 'tactical' stuff like Glocks and Mossie shotguns instead of 6 shot S&W revolvers and SxS scatterguns?

Deaf

If you put a spoiler on your mothers 4 door Buick, does that make it a sports car?

DPris
11-15-2010, 10:51
No, it does not.
BUT- if you stick a blower on top of a Model A Ford's engine you can run it at Indy.... :)
Denis

Deaf Smith
11-15-2010, 18:17
You want to go "modern", go modern. No problem whatsoever there.
But, trying to do what you're suggesting to a 311 is nothing more than silly.
Take a .38 caliber S&W Model 10, add night sights? Well....can be done.
Weld on a light mount? Can be done.
Sleeve the barrel, modify a couple internal parts, and install a custom made 9-shot .22 Mag cylinder, to make it more "tactical"?
Just buy a Glock.
Not much difference between that & the idea posed above.
Denis

Clearly you have never seen a S&W performance center revolver with night sights, rail light, moon clip reloading, porting, etc...

Deaf

Deaf Smith
11-15-2010, 18:18
If you put a spoiler on your mothers 4 door Buick, does that make it a sports car?

And the pump shotgun goes back how many years? I bet before the Buick.

Deaf

DPris
11-15-2010, 18:22
Deaf,
Clearly you have missed my point.
It's not about the value of those individual features, it's about the unrealistic efforts you're proposing to make a gun into something it was never intended to be, when you could just buy another gun that already has those features that you seem to think are important.
Denis

Deaf Smith
11-15-2010, 21:11
Deaf,
Clearly you have missed my point.
It's not about the value of those individual features, it's about the unrealistic efforts you're proposing to make a gun into something it was never intended to be, when you could just buy another gun that already has those features that you seem to think are important.
Denis


Denis,

Measure the OAL of a 18.5 inch 311. You will find it is far shorter than any 18 inch barrel pump or simiauto. And if you take a few inches off the butt stock you will make it even shorter (just make sure it's more than 26 inches, OAL!)

Now inside the house it becomes far more convient and useful. And that is why the alterations. I'd love to see a surefire forend like on a 870, and an Ashely tritium night sight.

And that is my plan. Choak tubes are so the shot pattern says tight because if you do have to aim off a bit to not hit an innocent and get a partial blast on the desired target you need a tight consistant pattern.

Anyway, short of a class II 14 inch shotgun, I feel this is the only way to get the desired configuation.

Deaf

MrMurphy
11-16-2010, 00:30
You're giving up capacity for length, which is honestly overrated (having worked far bigger weapons in small spaces).

A double works if it's what's in your hand right now. But i would not choose one deliberately over a pump action. They've been proven designs and reliable for over 110 years. There's a reason for that.

DPris
11-16-2010, 01:51
Deaf,
Yes, the 311 with 18.5-inch barrel will be shorter in OAL than an 18-inch 870.
One that's been cut back will have cylinder bore chokes (not "choaks"). As I said previously, the barrel walls may or may not be thick enough to install threaded choke tubes. No guarantees.

Vang Comp will not do doubles. You can find a good gunsmith who can do part of the Vang System, in extending the forcing cone length to help with recoil, and you can probably find somebody who'd be able to do some sort of porting. Total backboring, questionable. The end result will not be the same as what Vang does to pumps.

You can have a good gunsmith install an Ashley/XS tritium front bead.

Trying to goober up some way to "embed" a light IN the thin wood fore-end is unrealistic, not much room to work with. Supergluing one ON the outside of the wood could probably be done.

While a 311 coachgun in good shape is far from the worst choice you could make for a defensive piece, tactical in any vague definition of the term is not something I'd apply to it.

I can move my 18-inch 870s around the house quite easily, the 14-incher even better.

Denis

Bullman
11-16-2010, 13:04
The last time one of the tactical double threads came up that I participated in someone offered up a good idea on what these might be useful for. When traveling, one of these doubles can be broke down and stored in a smaller bag so it can be taken along. That way you have a long gun in your motel room to augment your handgun, a little extra bang for your buck that you can take with you more discreetly than a long gun bag or hard case that screams "GUN" to all who see it. Around the house, I would just as soon have a regular pump. I am considering a "tactical" double though, for when I travel.

cricketdave
11-16-2010, 16:21
i shoot doubles alot, in cowboy action competitions. the only problem with a good double is the ability to reload quickly which with training and practice can be overcome. unfortunatly the stevens 311 is one of the worst doubles to try to learn on. it dosnt open far enough or hang open far enough to load quickly. you want it to open fully clearing the shells so you can shuck them with a quick backward jerk of the gun. then it needs to stay fully open so you can pop 2 new shells in without having to use your other hand to hold it open.

so a stoger or a baikal or a ttn or most any other double will work better for your purposes, they are all going to need some action work though.

take it easy
cricket

Bullman
11-16-2010, 16:26
Isn't one of the 311s equipped with ejectors?

DPris
11-16-2010, 16:27
Cricket,
My 311R opens & hangs open just as far & just as well as my two Baikals.
Perfect chamber access, empties toss easily over the shoulder.
Denis

CTfam
11-16-2010, 18:02
^+1. A double would be a fun toy but not part of my defense battery. :cool:

$300 will get you a nice pump.

Deaf Smith
11-16-2010, 18:33
Isn't one of the 311s equipped with ejectors?

Now that would be nice!

If using a double for HD, I think the best way is to do the old elephant hunter trick and have two more rounds between the fingers of the hand holding the forend of the scattergun.

Fire two, open and shake the empties out (a good reason to polish the chambers like they do in the cowboy matches) and then grab the two rounds with the strong hand and load.

That or just drop or underarm the double and pull your handgun and keep going.

Like I said, I don't want a Class II or III gun, so a short stock (but usable one) on a double is about as far as we can go.

Well I'll have to see a smith and see if choak tubes can be installed. First the gun has to pass my trials. That is shoot about 100 rounds of birdshot and some 'tactical' (yea that word again) buckshot and make sure it's 100 percent reliable and shoots basicly where the bead points. Then look to modifications.

Yes a Merry Christmas with a Lupara for my project.

Deaf

method
11-16-2010, 18:39
The last time one of the tactical double threads came up that I participated in someone offered up a good idea on what these might be useful for. When traveling, one of these doubles can be broke down and stored in a smaller bag so it can be taken along. That way you have a long gun in your motel room to augment your handgun, a little extra bang for your buck that you can take with you more discreetly than a long gun bag or hard case that screams "GUN" to all who see it. Around the house, I would just as soon have a regular pump. I am considering a "tactical" double though, for when I travel.

Now that you mention that, that really is the double's main advantage. I have a 20" 870 with a folder, and folded it fits nicely into one of the carry bags you get with a camping chair....but it still screams gun.

Stoeger ought to do one with express rifle sights, and just a couple inches of rail in front of the fore end, with a wood stock.

Dogman 10x
11-20-2010, 21:42
Anybody want to sell a 311R!!! Email me.

B.Reid
11-20-2010, 22:21
Now that would be nice!

If using a double for HD, I think the best way is to do the old elephant hunter trick and have two more rounds between the fingers of the hand holding the forend of the scattergun.

Fire two, open and shake the empties out (a good reason to polish the chambers like they do in the cowboy matches) and then grab the two rounds with the strong hand and load.

That or just drop or underarm the double and pull your handgun and keep going.

Like I said, I don't want a Class II or III gun, so a short stock (but usable one) on a double is about as far as we can go.

Well I'll have to see a smith and see if choak tubes can be installed. First the gun has to pass my trials. That is shoot about 100 rounds of birdshot and some 'tactical' (yea that word again) buckshot and make sure it's 100 percent reliable and shoots basicly where the bead points. Then look to modifications.

Yes a Merry Christmas with a Lupara for my project.

Deaf

No reason to cut the receiver half any shorter that the barrel half. But then you can do about the same thing with a Winchester model 12.