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re223
11-13-2010, 21:56
I've read online that many rifle bullets that are hollow point in design are not really meant to expand. Is this true? Why not just buy fmj at that point? Am I missing something? Thanks.

M1A Shooter
11-13-2010, 22:03
i remember reading something about them actually more accurate. thats how the open tip match bullets were accepted under the geneva convention for precision rifles. otherwise ,atch ammo would be fmj as well and thats usually not the case.

shotgunred
11-13-2010, 22:09
A lot of pistol bullets are the same way. Pushing the center of gravity further back in the bullet is supposed to make it more accurate. I went through about 5K of 180 gr Hp in my 40 last year. I liked them because I never had a feeding issue with them.

WiskyT
11-13-2010, 22:14
A HP allows a few things for accuracy. It allows the base to be formed perfectly as the bullet is drawn towards the open end. So a FMJ, being open at the base, has imperfections on the base. The base is the most important part of the bullet.

Also, a HP allows the bullet to be longer for a given weight. This gives more bearing surface for better accuracy.

I'm just regurgitating what I read in my Hornady manual. It's an old manual, and at that time, they basically had two types of HP rifle bullets. Match, not to be used for hunting, and varmint bullets. The match HP were made for accuracy and not designed to expand reliably. They might fragment, expand perfectly, or not expand at all.

MrOldLude
11-15-2010, 08:21
That's logical. I knew there were reasons for target-HP ammo to be more accurate, but not exactly why. I had guessed it would be for some weird super-sonic aero reason, but the above makes more sense.

XDRoX
11-15-2010, 09:44
A few weeks ago someone posted a question like this on another reloading forum. This is one of the responses. I don't know if it's true or not, just showing what someone posted. It is a very interesting story.
Match bullets (such as SMKs) are not hollow point, they are open tipped. If they were true hollow points such ammo as M852 and M118LR would not be allowed in combat as it would violate the Geneva Convention.

A few years ago this was addressed by our military as a foolish JAG officer ordered all M118LR ammo pulled as he thought it was hollow point ammo and this banned.

Here is a quote from the news paper article on the goof:

The Washington Times

January 20, 2006 Friday

BYLINE: By Bill Gertz and Rowan Scarborough, THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Sniper rounds

An Army judge advocate general (JAG) temporarily banned Army and Marine Corps snipers from using a highly accurate open-tip bullet.

The JAG, we are told, mistakenly thought the open-tip round was the same as hollow-point ammunition, which is banned. The original open-tip was known as Sierra Match-King and broke all records for accuracy in the past 30 years.

The difference between the open-tip and the hollow point is that the open-tip is a design feature that improves accuracy while the hollow point is designed for increasing damage when it hits a target.

About 10 days ago, the Army JAG in Iraq ordered all snipers to stop using the open-tip 175-grain M118LR bullet, claiming, falsely, it was prohibited. Instead of the open-tip, snipers were forced to take M-60 machine gun rounds out of belts and use them instead.

The order upset quite a few people here and in Iraq who said the JAG ignored the basic principle of every military lawyer that there is a presumption of legality for all issued weapons or ammunition that are made at the military service level at the time they are acquired.

"She forced snipers to use less accurate ammunition, thereby placing U.S. forces and Iraqi civilians at greater risk," a Pentagon official said of the JAG, who was not identified by name. "And she incorrectly issued an order. JAGs may advise a commander, but they cannot issue orders."

After Army lawyers were finally alerted to the JAG's action, the order was lifted and the JAG was notified that the open-tip was perfectly legal for use by snipers. However, the reversal was followed by the Army officials' taking retaliation against a sniper who blew the whistle on the bogus order. The sniper lost his job over a security infraction in reporting the JAG.

Here is a quote from a 1985 Dept of the Army memo adressing the differences:

"4.Bullet Description.

As previously described, the MatchKing is a boat tail, ogival spitzer tip bullet with open tip. The "open tip" is a shallow aperture (approximately the diameter of the wire in a standard size straight pin or paper clip) in the nose of the bullet. While sometimes described as a "hollow point," this is a mischaracterization in law of war terms. Generally a "hollow point" bullet is thought of in terms of its ability to expand on impact with soft tissue. Physical examination of the MatchKing "open tip" bullet reveals that its opening is extremely small in comparison to the aperture in comparable hollow point hunting bullets; for example, the 165-grain GameKing is a true hollow point boat tail bullet with an aperture substantially greater than the MatchKing, and skiving (serrations cut into the jacket) to insure expansion. In the MatchKing, the open tip is closed as much as possible to provide better aerodynamics, and contains no skiving. The lead core of the MatchKing bullet is entirely covered by the bullet jacket. While the GameKing bullet is designed to bring the ballistic advantages of a match bullet to long range hunting, the manufacturer expressly recommends against the use of the MatchKing for hunting game of any size because it does not have the expansion characteristics of a hunting bullet.

The purpose of the small, shallow aperture in the MatchKing is to provide a bullet design offering maximum accuracy at very long ranges, rolling the jacket of the bullet around its core from base to tip; standard military bullets and other match bullets roll the jacket around its core from tip to base, leaving an exposed lead core at its base. Design purpose of the MatchKing was not to produce a bullet that would expand or flatten easily on impact with the human body, or otherwise cause wounds greater than those caused by standard military small arms ammunition."
"

Glockdude1
11-15-2010, 09:55
I've read online that many rifle bullets that are hollow point in design are not really meant to expand. Is this true? Why not just buy fmj at that point? Am I missing something? Thanks.

So far the only HP rifle bullets I cannot get to expand, are the 7.62x39 hollow points.

I have fired them in water jugs, wet newspaper, sand, wet sand, etc... All I ever see the 7.62x39 HP's do, is have the tip of the bullet just get bent.

:cool:

VN350X10
11-16-2010, 21:05
At 4K+ fps, just about any match bullet blows up on a prarie dog !(Match Kings included!)

Long live the .220 Swift !

uncle albert

MrOldLude
11-17-2010, 14:35
At 4K+ fps, just about any match bullet blows up on a prarie dog !(Match Kings included!)

Long live the .220 Swift !

uncle albert
If I could somehow accelerate a marshmallow to 4000 fps and then shoot a prairie dog, I'd expect to have similarly fatal results.

ilgunguygt
11-17-2010, 16:41
If I could somehow accelerate a marshmallow to 4000 fps and then shoot a prairie dog, I'd expect to have similarly fatal results.
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

dudel
11-17-2010, 18:00
If I could somehow accelerate a marshmallow to 4000 fps and then shoot a prairie dog, I'd expect to have similarly fatal results.

Except the prairie dog remains would be stickier. :supergrin:

VN350X10
11-17-2010, 19:17
True, but the BC on most marshmallows is really lousy.......
and they wind-drift too bad.


uncle albert

fredj338
11-18-2010, 08:57
So far the only HP rifle bullets I cannot get to expand, are the 7.62x39 hollow points.

I have fired them in water jugs, wet newspaper, sand, wet sand, etc... All I ever see the 7.62x39 HP's do, is have the tip of the bullet just get bent.

:cool:
While some match type HP rifle bullets may expand, it's not uniform or predictable. It's why they should not be used for hunting. WhiskeyT gavea good account of why the match HP is a better tool for extreme accuracy.