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norton
11-14-2010, 07:13
Wonder why Lyman, an old and respected name in reloading, does not have a progressive press for sale?
Couple of weeks ago I decided to drag my Lyman Turret press out-it was my first one-to load 9mm.
I also own a Lyman 1200 DPS powder scale, dispenser.
They make good products.
Come on Lyman, how about a fresh take on progressives.

IndyGunFreak
11-14-2010, 07:38
Cuz they're old and respected? ;)

Actually I've wondered the same thing myself. I'd imagine they feel the progressive market is flooding, and frankly(as of now) it's a two horse race between Dillon and Hornady.

RCBS and Lee make some fine equipment, and RCBS even makes a pretty good auto index progressive. However, it's the same price as the Dillon... I'm guessing when folks decide to drop that kind of coin, they decide the Dillon is the better deal.

Bello
11-14-2010, 11:52
Cuz they're old and respected? ;)

Actually I've wondered the same thing myself. I'd imagine they feel the progressive market is flooding, and frankly(as of now) it's a two horse race between Dillon and Hornady.

RCBS and Lee make some fine equipment, and RCBS even makes a pretty good auto index progressive. However, it's the same price as the Dillon... I'm guessing when folks decide to drop that kind of coin, they decide the Dillon is the better deal.


as did i! i looked at the rcbs also before the 650; but i coulda had a bullet feeder and brass feeder all in one for like 1500

Colorado4Wheel
11-14-2010, 16:47
To enter the progressive market you need a very good press (Green aint it), at a good price (needs to undercut Dillon a good amount).

Look what Hornady did. They gave away 1000 free bullets for years, now they still give away 500. They undercut the 650 a good amount and are pretty much even with the 550 in price. They offer more also have to offer more features for that price (kinda, no low powder alarm and other things). Keep in mind Hornady has been refining that LnL for years. And it's had some real growing pains along the way.

Basically, it would be tough for them to do. And they would have to basically give it away for a while. Not a great business choice I would think.

dudel
11-14-2010, 17:01
To enter the progressive market you need a very good press (Green aint it), at a good price (needs to undercut Dillon a good amount).

Look what Hornady did. They gave away 1000 free bullets for years, now they still give away 500. They undercut the 650 a good amount and are pretty much even with the 550 in price. They offer more also have to offer more features for that price (kinda, no low powder alarm and other things). Keep in mind Hornady has been refining that LnL for years. And it's had some real growing pains along the way.

Basically, it would be tough for them to do. And they would have to basically give it away for a while. Not a great business choice I would think.

+1 Lyman decided to stick to dies (which are quite good). Their single stage is a solid performer. Take a look at the progressives out there now. They've been designed 15-20 years ago. Even the LNL, which is mostly a Pro-Jector. Not a new progressive in recent times. The cost to develop a new machine in today's dollars would be substantial. Then, as Steve said, you have to come in under Dillon's price (or give away stuff), and even then you'd have to show better than Lee. Not much of an international market (reloading is pretty much an American activity). Market already has a good number of presses out there.

It would be a hard proposition to sell to management. For that matter, why pick on Lyman? Neither Forester, Bonanza or Redding make progressive presses either. Not sure I would consider RCBS (and I love my RockChucker) a viable progressive. Their Green Machine bit me, their PiggyBack was a disaster, and their auto 4x4 was/is a terrible value (it must have gold plated unobtanium parts). Single stage is much easier to build and support. Progressives can be a headache for the vendor, then a nightmare for the customer. When that happens, kiss your chances goodbye.

norton
11-15-2010, 05:13
+1 Lyman decided to stick to dies (which are quite good). Their single stage is a solid performer. Take a look at the progressives out there now. They've been designed 15-20 years ago. Even the LNL, which is mostly a Pro-Jector. Not a new progressive in recent times. The cost to develop a new machine in today's dollars would be substantial. Then, as Steve said, you have to come in under Dillon's price (or give away stuff), and even then you'd have to show better than Lee. Not much of an international market (reloading is pretty much an American activity). Market already has a good number of presses out there.

It would be a hard proposition to sell to management. For that matter, why pick on Lyman? Neither Forester, Bonanza or Redding make progressive presses either. Not sure I would consider RCBS (and I love my RockChucker) a viable progressive. Their Green Machine bit me, their PiggyBack was a disaster, and their auto 4x4 was/is a terrible value (it must have gold plated unobtanium parts). Single stage is much easier to build and support. Progressives can be a headache for the vendor, then a nightmare for the customer. When that happens, kiss your chances goodbye.



Why did you not like your RCBS progressive? It was a Pro 2000? Its a press I read very little about on this forum.

dudel
11-15-2010, 11:06
Why did you not like your RCBS progressive? It was a Pro 2000? Its a press I read very little about on this forum.

Green Machine was designed by Rube Goldberg (or his cousin). To many fiddly parts that never stayed in sync long enough to load 50 rounds. You had a progresive press, but it used a "Little Dandy" fixed rotor powder dump. The linkage was sooooo bad you would twist the rotor manually to dump powder while working the crank. It was always on the verge of working, that's what kept you trying to make i work. A straight line progressive is much more complicated than a rotating shellplate. RCBS must have learned from that, because the next was the Piggyback. An interesting idea to convert a single stage press to a progressive. Great idea, terrible execution. The part that mounted on to the single stage made the whole unit top heavy and unstable. When it indexed, it would spill powder and tip primers. Fun, fun, fun. The Pro 2000 is their current model. It may work; but the price is crazy when compared to a 550b or a LNL. Last time I checked, it was almost double a LNL with no more features. That funny shaped shellplate costs more to machine and provides no advantage. It makes conversion costs higher than the competition.

I'm not an RCBS basher, my Rockchucker is still a great press and will stay on my bench. For some reason, they never got their act together on progressives. Way back when, the story went that they contracted out the designs, cheaped out along the way, rushed them to market, and had no support for them when they got there. A recipe for failure if there ever was one.

The reason you don't see much discussion on the RCBS Pro 2000, is that I suspect relatively few were ever sold. The good thing is that their bullet feeder can be adapted to other presses. That was a very good move on their part. Now if they can be competitive price wise, it might work out well for them.

For those interested, the Green Machine directions are here: http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instructions/FINAL_GREEN_MACHINE.pdf

PiggyBack is here: http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instructions/Piggyback_III_Manual.pdf

Pro2000 here: http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instructions/Pro2000_Auto_Index_88882_Rev5-10.pdf

Those were the days.

GioaJack
11-15-2010, 11:36
The Green Machine is similar to the old C&H straight line progressive that I bought back in the early '70's when I was still in the service. If God made a bigger POS he kept it to Himself.

That's the machine that blew up the filled primer tube I've posted pictures of. I worked a lot of off duty jobs to save the money for that thing and it never, never ran right. I was before the day of toll free phone numbers and way, way before the internet so talking to CS cost you an easy $20 every time you called.

Screwed with it for the better part of a year then got disgusted and bought two used Star loaders, .38 and .45 and paid for 'em by loading for a couple gun shops and then later guys on the department.

The C&H now resides in a box in the barn and I'm sure it will be there long after I'm dead. The destroyed primer tube is mounted on my loading room wall.

Live and learn I guess.


Jack

El_Ron1
11-15-2010, 12:02
The Green Mosheen was an RCBS anomaly put here to most likely to sell Dillons. Grandfather of the trail of green tears, The 4x4, The Piggybacks I and II, The Ammomaster...

You could do things on a Lee Loadmaster you could never do on those abominations. Like reload ammo in sufficient quantities, if you were of an unhamhanded mind to.

The early RCBS "progressive" road map made no sense for an otherwise legitimate company.

norton
11-15-2010, 13:04
It sounds like you guys are referring to rcbs progressives prior to the Pro 2000

BTW, I see the Pro 2000 listed in several catalogs I get in the mail. It does seem to be overpriced, by about $100. But in the long term, $100 is insignificant spread out over several years.

And I do like the idea of the primer feed strips. It seems like a very simple system. Not as convoluted as the Dillon system-

gasp, I said something negative about Blue. I could be drummed out of the Corps for that!

dudel
11-15-2010, 15:54
It sounds like you guys are referring to rcbs progressives prior to the Pro 2000

BTW, I see the Pro 2000 listed in several catalogs I get in the mail. It does seem to be overpriced, by about $100. But in the long term, $100 is insignificant spread out over several years.

And I do like the idea of the primer feed strips. It seems like a very simple system. Not as convoluted as the Dillon system-

gasp, I said something negative about Blue. I could be drummed out of the Corps for that!

Now the primers strips are a solution for the question no one asked. Ever seen primer strips a the store? Me neither.

Only flavor is CCI (not so bad, I like CCI primers). However, even CCI recognized that you wouldn't be able to find the primers in strips very easily, so they made a machine so you could dump primers, get them right side up, then stuff them into strips.
No thanks. I'll just pick them up with the tube and put them in the safety tube in the event of a detonation. Wonder what happens to the other primers in the strip should one go off?

You see the 2000 in catalogs; how come they don't seem to show up on forums very often. It might be a great machine; but it's over priced, and RCBS has a terrible reputation on progressives. People just tend to shy aways from green progressives (almost an oxymoron).