LPP sensitivity, which brand is most sensitive? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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HAMMERHEAD
11-15-2010, 17:41
I had two failures to fire today with my Glock 20 using Win brass and CCI primers, the strikes looked light, so I'll have to detail strip and clean my slide, also double check my priming procedures.

This, and a recent thread over at THR got me thinking about primer sensitivity.
I had always thought CCI were more sensitive, and Federal less sensitive, but now I'm wondering if I have it backwards.

My buddy has a T/C carbine in .45acp, and my handloads with CCI primers have trouble in that gun.

My Sigs and HK's have no trouble with CCI LPP, but both my G-20 and G-21 have.

Are Federals more sensitive than CCI's?
Winchester in the middle?

Boxerglocker
11-15-2010, 17:44
Did the 2 failures fire the second time loaded? If the do you have a high primer issue. CCI primers are middle of the road for hardness, there should be no issues in Glocks with standard firing pin springs.

WiskyT
11-15-2010, 18:28
There is nothing wrong with your primers. They are either seated too high, or your rounds aren't fitting the chamber. If your chamber is dirty, your crimp is insufficient, your OAL is too long, etc. the round won't seat all the way in the chamber. The firing pin hits the primer, drives the case forward and soaks up the eneergy of the FP strike.

I run a lighter FP spring in my G17 and use CCI primers all the time, which are supposed to be the hardest to set off. Never any problems when my ammo fit the gun and the primer was seated properly.

I've even had a pound of accumulated crap like carbon, brass filings etc in my FP channel that I didn't realize and the gun ran fine.

n2extrm
11-15-2010, 18:35
I had Clark Customs replace the barrel and tune my 586. When I got it back it would not fire 6 out of 10 reloads with CCI primers. I called them and they said it was from the light main spring, they could tighten it up or I could switch to Federal primers. According to them Federal are the softest primers. I have found Remington a close second, no failures to fire. CCI and Winchester I have problems with, only in that tuned target gun.

As Wiskey said, a Glock should have no trouble with CCI if everything else is good.

HAMMERHEAD
11-15-2010, 18:59
Yes, I know the problem today was likely with my loads, I stated that in my first post.
I also understand how high primers cause problems.

I didn't re-chamber them, I took them home to check them out.

But just for fun, which primers are considered most sensitive?

Boxerglocker
11-15-2010, 19:01
Yes, I know the problem today was likely with my loads, I stated that in my first post.
I also understand how high primers cause problems.

I didn't re-chamber them, I took them home to check them out.

But just for fun, which primers are considered most sensitive?

Federal are considered by many to be the softest in terms of ignition. I started a post a while back asking the same for my P3AT .380 loads, that were hit or mis with CCI and or Wolf SPP.

HAMMERHEAD
11-15-2010, 19:03
Thank you for a simple, direct answer.

n2extrm
11-15-2010, 19:03
Federal followed by Remington. CCI is the hardest with the mil spec primers being their hardest.

HAMMERHEAD
11-15-2010, 19:06
Thank you.

WiskyT
11-15-2010, 19:11
Thank you for a simple, direct answer.

If you want a simple direct answer, Charlie Petty did a test a few years back where he showed they were all the same.

Colorado4Wheel
11-15-2010, 22:29
My Sigs and HK's have no trouble with CCI LPP, but both my G-20 and G-21 have.

Are Federals more sensitive than CCI's?
Winchester in the middle?

My G20 fires CCI every time all the time. Stock springs in the gun.

D. Manley
11-15-2010, 22:53
If the primers are seated properly and used in a stock gun, any brand will normally be just fine. In a tuned gun, different story...go with Federals as 1st choice, Winchester 2nd choice. Federal is without doubt the most sensitive but Winchesters will run with all but the lightest of FP strikes.

ron59
11-16-2010, 06:00
If you want a simple direct answer, Charlie Petty did a test a few years back where he showed they were all the same.

On Charlie Vanek's trigger site, he mentions his trigger kits having issues with CCI primers if the lightest striker spring he offers is used. He also provides an "intermediate" striker spring that can be used in that case. So here's a guy who produces a BUNCH of trigger kits, that people have reported having issues "popping" CCI primers, but not Federal. Guess that's all in his head? For a guy who's been doing that as long as him, you don't think he's done some research and gotten plenty of feedback for him to go so far as to post it in his instructions?

Ask the master shooters what they want to shoot.
I had a talk last summer with Grady Whitlaw. I'm pretty sure I recall the conversation correctly, where he said he used Federals, not CCI. Of course, it's all in his mind, right? Couldn't be the BAJILLION rounds he's probably shot in his life, with personal practical experience?

I'm not a Lee user, but I'm pretty sure I've read on here that with one of their presses, the instructions explicitly state "NOT TO USE FEDERAL PRIMERS.". Really? They'd put that in there "just because"? Ummm... I think not. It's because they're softer an can go off easier and cause an issue.

Go out on Google and search for the same question. I just did. I couldn't find a source that listed them "as the same". All said Federals were softer, CCIs were harder. Granted... I didn't follow every link there so maybe somebody says they're the same. But when I read that Lee Presses say don't use Federals as they're too soft and can ignite too easily, that Vanek admits CCIs are too hard for his "race" setup.... yeah, I'm going to think there's a difference.

But hey... what do I know. I listen to Lynyrd Skynyrd.

:whistling:

HAMMERHEAD
11-16-2010, 06:09
My G20 fires CCI every time all the time. Stock springs in the gun.
Mine is a 2nd gen, stock as well.
My problem I think is my priming procedure, I'm still priming on the press, the down stroke after sizing. Works fine 99% of the time, but the leverage is not there, and if things get sticky, I think I leave a few high.
I inspect every powder charge, but not every primer.
OK for practice ammo, but for serious ammo I need a serious priming method. Looking at the RCBS Ram prime or the RCBS bench primer. Don't want a squeeze primer, my hands get enough of a work out at work, and tendonitis is creeping in.

I had avoided Federal primers until now because I though they were harder/less sensitive, I think I've had it wrong.
Thanks all.

Colorado4Wheel
11-16-2010, 07:46
Mine is a 2nd gen, stock as well.
My problem I think is my priming procedure, I'm still priming on the press, the down stroke after sizing. Works fine 99% of the time, but the leverage is not there, and if things get sticky, I think I leave a few high.
I inspect every powder charge, but not every primer.
OK for practice ammo, but for serious ammo I need a serious priming method. Looking at the RCBS Ram prime or the RCBS bench primer. Don't want a squeeze primer, my hands get enough of a work out at work, and tendonitis is creeping in.

I had avoided Federal primers until now because I though they were harder/less sensitive, I think I've had it wrong.
Thanks all.

Sounds like you are on a LM maybe? If so you can adjust the primer punch a little further. I never had issues with high primers on my LM. Also, get some ammo boxes and case gauge your important ammo. When you put it in the gauge you run your finger over the primer. You will get a good feel for high primers like that. Good luck.

Edit: And don't forget to be sure the shellplate is tight. Another LM trick is to size over the seating station. You would need a universal deprimer in station 1 for that to work. THey don't cost much.

WiskyT
11-16-2010, 15:46
On Charlie Vanek's trigger site, he mentions his trigger kits having issues with CCI primers if the lightest striker spring he offers is used. He also provides an "intermediate" striker spring that can be used in that case. So here's a guy who produces a BUNCH of trigger kits, that people have reported having issues "popping" CCI primers, but not Federal. Guess that's all in his head? For a guy who's been doing that as long as him, you don't think he's done some research and gotten plenty of feedback for him to go so far as to post it in his instructions?

Ask the master shooters what they want to shoot.
I had a talk last summer with Grady Whitlaw. I'm pretty sure I recall the conversation correctly, where he said he used Federals, not CCI. Of course, it's all in his mind, right? Couldn't be the BAJILLION rounds he's probably shot in his life, with personal practical experience?

I'm not a Lee user, but I'm pretty sure I've read on here that with one of their presses, the instructions explicitly state "NOT TO USE FEDERAL PRIMERS.". Really? They'd put that in there "just because"? Ummm... I think not. It's because they're softer an can go off easier and cause an issue.

Go out on Google and search for the same question. I just did. I couldn't find a source that listed them "as the same". All said Federals were softer, CCIs were harder. Granted... I didn't follow every link there so maybe somebody says they're the same. But when I read that Lee Presses say don't use Federals as they're too soft and can ignite too easily, that Vanek admits CCIs are too hard for his "race" setup.... yeah, I'm going to think there's a difference.

But hey... what do I know. I listen to Lynyrd Skynyrd.

:whistling:


And are apparently a bad sport about it. I think you need a little less Skynyrd and a little more of the Dicksy Chicks. A good cry will make you all better.:upeyes:

WiskyT
11-16-2010, 15:50
As for switching to Federals to make your gun run, hey, have at it. I'm sure it will help a gun run or the builders wouldn't do it. If you use your gun for games, and think that will make you a winner, have at it. I have my guns for other reasons, and believe me, a microjoule of FP power one way or the other is not how I do things. I wonder how much people who actually win matches, rather than just compete and put the stickers in their car windows, bother with guns that will only fire Federal primers? The best shooters in the world compete at Camp Perry and use GI ball.

Sonnytoo
11-16-2010, 16:40
Federal followed by Remington. CCI is the hardest with the mil spec primers being their hardest.

Agreed. Federal softest (easiest to ignite) and CCI the hardest. This info from a retired 40yr gunsmith who is famous on some other sites.
Sonnytoo

GioaJack
11-16-2010, 17:21
I prefer a very hard flint, produces superior spark and makes for very clean knapping. O course all those sissy modern shooters complain that the can't see their targets.

I usually light a cigarette right about then just to add to the cloud. Screw 'em. :whistling:


Jack

HAMMERHEAD
11-16-2010, 17:24
Sounds like you are on a LM maybe? If so you can adjust the primer punch a little further. I never had issues with high primers on my LM. Also, get some ammo boxes and case gauge your important ammo. When you put it in the gauge you run your finger over the primer. You will get a good feel for high primers like that. Good luck.

Edit: And don't forget to be sure the shellplate is tight. Another LM trick is to size over the seating station. You would need a universal deprimer in station 1 for that to work. THey don't cost much.
Not sure what an LM is, I'm using a Redding T-7 turret press, one shell holder, one cartridge at a time. There's nothing to adjust in the priming system.

I do need to run my finger over all of them.
For premium ammo I plan to use the ram prime system and put each finished cartridge in the gauge and slip it under my dial indicator, this will check case length and primer seating depth, as well as the usual checks by the gauge.

Thanks all.

ron59
11-16-2010, 19:16
I wonder how much people who actually win matches, rather than just compete and put the stickers in their car windows, bother with guns that will only fire Federal primers? The best shooters in the world compete at Camp Perry and use GI ball.

I bolded his name in my response to you. Grady Whitlaw. He's one of THE top shooters in GSSF, and while there are plenty of slouches there, he's not one of them. He wins the Masters divisions often, as well has been MatchMeister (best score of ALL divisions) plenty of times. He's a shooter.
All you gotta do is look at this thread:
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1207560
Top shooters of the 2010-2011 season. If it says MASTER, if he's not the top dog in each division, he's top 3. He's .01 off the fastest time off the year. He, Vanek, Lee and others seem to think there's a difference. Now, whom to believe....them or you? :rofl:

Now... let's see.... ME being a bad sport about the GTR Theme Song thread? Please, you *gotta* be kidding me. That is without a doubt the funniest thing you've said all week.

WiskyT
11-16-2010, 19:32
I bolded his name in my response to you. Grady Whitlaw. He's one of THE top shooters in GSSF, and while there are plenty of slouches there, he's not one of them. He wins the Masters divisions often, as well has been MatchMeister (best score of ALL divisions) plenty of times. He's a shooter.
All you gotta do is look at this thread:
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1207560
Top shooters of the 2010-2011 season. If it says MASTER, if he's not the top dog in each division, he's top 3. He's .01 off the fastest time off the year. He, Vanek, Lee and others seem to think there's a difference. Now, whom to believe....them or you? :rofl:

Now... let's see.... ME being a bad sport about the GTR Theme Song thread? Please, you *gotta* be kidding me. That is without a doubt the funniest thing you've said all week.

So what you're saying, aside from the fact that you're completely going off the deep end regarding a thread about a theme song, is that people who shoot at targets the size of a water buffalo at 10 yards, tune their guns so finely that only one kind of primer will do. And that should serve as an example, above and beyond the guys who shoot one handed at 50 yards at a fist sized target, as to exactly what? Your posts are getting so ****ed up I can't even follow them any more.

Honestly, in the thread with Okie and WTF powder, he won.

Boxerglocker
11-16-2010, 19:47
Come on you guys…

Everyone has an opinion...

If one cannot state theirs and expect that not at least one other may not agree. Keep yours to yourself or take your ball and go home. :upeyes:

HAMMERHEAD
11-16-2010, 20:04
Come on you guys…

Everyone has an opinion...

If one cannot state theirs and expect that not at least one other may not agree. Keep yours to yourself or take your ball and go home. :upeyes:

Agreed, but some times you have to take action, I just put someone on my ignore list for the first time in 8 years, and they just disappeared. Sweet.

GioaJack
11-16-2010, 20:12
A water buffalo sized target at ten yards, hey, I can do that! Wait a minute... how many shots do I get?


Jack

shotgunred
11-16-2010, 20:20
If you call the wolf primers a Cheap Russian Whore it will :crying:.

Is that sensitive enough?

Colorado4Wheel
11-16-2010, 20:21
Not sure what an LM is, I'm using a Redding T-7 turret press, one shell holder, one cartridge at a time. There's nothing to adjust in the priming system.

I do need to run my finger over all of them.
For premium ammo I plan to use the ram prime system and put each finished cartridge in the gauge and slip it under my dial indicator, this will check case length and primer seating depth, as well as the usual checks by the gauge.

Thanks all.

I saw that you were priming on the downstroke and assumed you had a Load Master from Lee. I don't know anything about the priming on the press you got. Good luck with it all.

WiskyT
11-16-2010, 20:22
If you call the wolf primers a Cheap Russian Whore it will :crying:.

Is that sensitive enough?

I think he put you on his ignore list.

HAMMERHEAD
11-16-2010, 20:23
If you call the wolf primers a Cheap Russian Whore it will :crying:.

Is that sensitive enough?

That's funny, but every time I hear 'cheap russian whore', I think of the girl that played Tony's girlfriend on the Sopranos, and I get distracted for about 20 minutes.

WiskyT
11-16-2010, 20:23
I saw that you were priming on the downstroke and assumed you had a Load Master from Lee. I don't know anything about the priming on the press you got. Good luck with it all.

I think he put you on his ignore list.

Colorado4Wheel
11-16-2010, 20:35
I think he put you on his ignore list.


Why would he put me on his ignore list? I was trying to help him.:dunno:

HAMMERHEAD
11-16-2010, 20:37
Why would he put me on his ignore list? I was trying to help him.:dunno:
I appreciate your help Steve, you're GTG.

Colorado4Wheel
11-16-2010, 20:41
I appreciate your help Steve, you're GTG.


Thanks. I was wonder what I could have done.

VN350X10
11-16-2010, 21:01
Just about all of the PPC revolver shooters & their trick "what trigger pull" guns swear by Federals......
The only time I've had a problem with Win primers in a Glock was in my 21 & guess what....HIGH PRIMERS. Operator error on the loading press, my Dillon 1050, not paying attention to the machine, MY BAD !

uncle albert

GioaJack
11-16-2010, 21:08
Just about all of the PPC revolver shooters & their trick "what trigger pull" guns swear by Federals......
The only time I've had a problem with Win primers in a Glock was in my 21 & guess what....HIGH PRIMERS. Operator error on the loading press, my Dillon 1050, not paying attention to the machine, MY BAD !

uncle albert


Your 1050 is obviously defective and beyond repair. I'll give you $100 for it... I'll even split the shipping with you.


Jack

n2extrm
11-16-2010, 21:11
I wonder if you are using mixed brass (i do it all the time) could some just not seat as easily or well?

Grungy primer pockets? A little dirt giving you a high primer?

Just a couple of random ideas.

WiskyT
11-17-2010, 04:44
Your 1050 is obviously defective and beyond repair. I'll give you $100 for it... I'll even split the shipping with you.


Jack

I think he put you on his ignore list, something to do with "ignor-ance"

HAMMERHEAD
11-17-2010, 17:05
I wonder if you are using mixed brass (i do it all the time) could some just not seat as easily or well?

Grungy primer pockets? A little dirt giving you a high primer?

Just a couple of random ideas.
I don't skimp on brass, it's all one batch of Winchester, the only range pick up I use are 100 pieces of Remington nickel I watched a guy fire in his EAA Witness, so I know they were factory.
But the Winchester brass is a little tight on the pockets with CCI primers, and the leverage is not there seating on the downstroke on my press, sometimes I have to grab the back of the press with my left hand while pushing in with my right to keep the table from moving, sounds more extreme than it is.
I guess I've been through this batch of brass 4 or 5 times, so the pockets could be dirty. Maybe I'll get ambitious and clean the brass after de-priming, maybe.

IIRC, Winchesters fit a little better, and I might give Federals a try, not because they are more sensitive, but because they're in stock, yeah, that's it, because they're in stock.:supergrin:

VN350X10
11-17-2010, 19:24
Naw, I'd never ignore Jack.......I just haven't quit laughing yet !
Hurts when I fall out of this silly chair & bump my head on the floor.

uncle albert
oh yeah, the 1050 problem was a loose screw, actually 2 of them. One on the machine & one on the operator !