TSA nude x-ray/Pat down [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : TSA nude x-ray/Pat down


Manzoli7
11-17-2010, 11:55
What do women on this site think of being required to take a nude x ray to fly or get patted down in a way where they grab your groin and feel your chest. As a male I do not want to have some guy grabing my private parts. I hear they actually grab them now. I also hear that if you submit to the nude x ray you can still be pulled asside for an enhanced pat down. I have also heard they use these pat downs on 6 year old boys and girls.

The court house in Orlando Florida was using one of these machines and did not erase the images of over 3,000 people and someone posted 100 of them on the internet but he mad them blurry and hid peoples faces to protect thier identity.

The nude x ray and pat down do not show the inside of body cavities. How many of you would not mind it if they said everyone has to submit to a body cavity search of all thier body cavities before they can fly? Or allow them to do this to your 6 year old kids. I would be against this but maybe 10 years from now the majority of people would think this is reasonable, esspecially if they grew up accepting the nude x ray and grabbing pat down.

Mrs.Cicero
11-17-2010, 19:36
basically, if there were any other way for me to get to Poland next summer besides fly, I would take it, because of the radiation issues (I've been irradiated more than enough in my life and don't need more, thank you), and because THEY ARE WASTING MY TAX DOLLARS patting down 6 years olds and grandmothers in wheel chairs. START PROFILING and stop playing stupid games with people's lives. Imbeciles. And BTW, I won't be taking my kids to Poland next year - and this is half the reason why. No one pats down my kids.

Mrs.Cicero

BierGut
11-18-2010, 13:32
THEY ARE WASTING MY TAX DOLLARS patting down 6 years olds and grandmothers in wheel chairs. START PROFILING and stop playing stupid games with people's lives. Imbeciles. And BTW, I won't be taking my kids to Poland next year - and this is half the reason why. No one pats down my kids.

Mrs.Cicero

+1. Well said.

triehl27
11-19-2010, 02:05
Am I against um, yeah. Who trains those doing the pat downs? Are the screeners certified in doing these pat downs, or is it just the supervisor or whom ever is on hand that showed um how?

I flew from Spokane to Seattle in my boxers in 2004, do to TSA not understanding that warm up pants have snaps on the sides.

70 eyewitnesses to the fact that the screener had never seen pants with snaps down the sides, and force me to remove them and fly onto Seattle in my boxers.

When I boarded the flight the flight attendent gave me a blanket to cover up with.

And here's the kicker! My pants were waiting for me at the gate in Seattle with a TSA Supervisor. He insisted I put them on, I stowed up in my carry on, along with the blanket. He offered me a golf cart ride to the curb, he'd even get my baggage off the carousel, I could wait in the golf cart, but I walked got my own baggage and stood at the curb with him and a Seatac Police officer.

I rather proudly walked out of Seatac in my green plaid boxers that had no closure for the fly. I consulted 2 lawyers and all I got from the TSA was "We were acting under the Patriot act." Even with 16 statements from others on the flight I was advised it would be a long hard expensive lawsuit to win. The TSA supervisor? Nope no one by that last name works in Seattle although there was a guy with the same name working in Chicago. The Screener? Nope, no one of that name working in Spokane, although there was a screener by that name in Denver.

powder86
11-19-2010, 09:01
my wife's pissed about all this mess. neither one of us are very interested in flying anywhere anymore. it's just nuts to deal with airports nowadays. very frustrating.
i remember in my childhood airports were fun to go to. i traveled, as a child (7-12), a lot by myself. it was an adventure. now air travel is one of the most stressful processes to deal with.

PATRICE
11-20-2010, 06:52
.....

PATRICE
11-20-2010, 06:55
.....

crsuribe
11-20-2010, 23:15
Wonder why Obama supports this initiative... oh, right...

SARDG
11-21-2010, 09:49
I am a female, but it seems that the now famous "touch my junk" guy should go serve some time in the military and find out what lack of privacy really means, and go engage our foes face-to-face in those countries that caused this 'inconvenience' in the first place.

Somehow, when I joined the Navy I learned (and you will learn in the service, or face the consequences), to simply give up most expectations of real privacy. I was only in 4 years active, but resolved myself to acceptance of less privacy, so x-rays and pat downs are still no real issue for me. What would be an issue is being a helpless passenger on an airplane of bombers and terrorists and dieing at my young age. Have the terrorists won when United States citizens are subjected to this inconvenience - you betcha! At least in some way. But x-rays/pat downs of all passengers beats the alternative - death by terrorist.

As for cavity searches, I am not certain if the x-rays provide enough detail, or not. Perhaps they do under certain conditions. The first time a terrorist slips through with explosive material in a body cavity, we will likely see an increase in x-ray strength or other seemingly MORE invasive technologies (in the public's eye). It seems however, that routine (manual) cavity searches will always remain cost and time prohibitive.

Taking out your frustrations on TSA agents themselves is non-productive. They are only the messenger and have certain expectations from their bosses and the flying public - and from me!

PATRICE
11-21-2010, 21:19
.....

Eurodriver
11-21-2010, 22:14
I was hand patted in 2007 flying from Chicago to North Carolina. This is nothing new. I still don't understand why they chose me, I had alot of metal on my clothing that I wasn't about to take off, and full body scanners werent around then. They took me to a separate area and wanded me then any time the metal detector went off they would feel for explosives or a weapon. This took at least 10 minutes. Afterwards I went on my merry way.

I was flying in my US Marine Corps Service Alpha uniform. So I can understand their suspicion ....

SARDG
11-21-2010, 23:50
I was hand patted in 2007 flying from Chicago to North Carolina. This is nothing new...

I was flying in my US Marine Corps Service Alpha uniform. So I can understand their suspicion ....

I gave up flying in any uniform that includes fruit salad and other (metal) devices. Once was enough several years ago, just because of what you mentioned. The excessive inconvenience and extra time was my beef - more than the pat down.

It does make an interesting scene at the airport when the military is wanded and patted down - or pulled aside like the rest of the potential terrorists.

glockpacker
11-23-2010, 09:32
"Those who would give up
essential liberty
in pursuit of a little
temporary security
deserve neither liberty
nor security."
.....Benjamin Franklin

PATRICE
11-24-2010, 17:48
-----------------------------------------------------------

Silverhawk500
11-24-2010, 21:00
I think that being subjected to the pat down ( while not under arrest), or radiation exposure is unacceptable to be allowed to fly. A pat down done incorrectly is useless and dangerous, providing a false sense of security, so it should not become less invasive. As for the radiation exposure, per scan, cumulative,( is the TSA wearing radiation badges? ), I have not been able to find exposure level in millirads, discussion of genetic effects, neonatal effects at different gestation times. "ASSUMING" we believe that it is SAFE, we then must "ASSume" that the scanners will never fail to perform correctly100% of the time. So I guess that having radioactive material in an area accessible to the public where an explosive device could scatter it is a good idea??? Hundreds of people waiting like sheep to pass onto a safe flight? The terrorist does not need to be on a plane to injure/kill. I guess this is the HOPE and CHANGE that we get????
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

Brucev
11-25-2010, 17:40
Part of the problem boils down to the simple fact that they cannot select for individuals who fit a "profile" that would identify them as a risk. They must treat all people... even three year old children... as risk. Yep... "Land of the free..." now has a whole different meaning. We must all be "safe" because if we are not "safe" we might have to deal with "risk." Personally, I will continue to fly. And when I deal with the nice little tsa folks, I will speak to them in whatever blunt way I chose. As far as I'm concerned, they are just one step from voyeurs and not far from criminals. But everyone needs to really bite on this... the tsa is acting far beyond any rational understanding of the Constitution. It will be nice to see them slapped down when someone finally gets this junk before the supreme court.

southern118
11-28-2010, 13:59
I was hand patted in 2007 flying from Chicago to North Carolina. This is nothing new. I still don't understand why they chose me, I had alot of metal on my clothing that I wasn't about to take off, and full body scanners werent around then. They took me to a separate area and wanded me then any time the metal detector went off they would feel for explosives or a weapon. This took at least 10 minutes. Afterwards I went on my merry way.

I was flying in my US Marine Corps Service Alpha uniform. So I can understand their suspicion ....


were you on orders. Legally they arent allowed to do any extra search on you if you are under orders so next time ask for a manager.

conservativenut
11-28-2010, 14:30
Hey I just got back from Hungary this past Tuesday (11/23). I did go thru the full body scanner in Amsterdam and it was nothing like what they are talking about and showing us here in the US. First they took my friend & I into talk to a security person before the scanner and x-ray machine. We were asked the standard questions about where we were coming from and going to and also what we had done on our trip. So I went thru the scanner and then I was patted down which I realized was because of my underwire bra. I did see the picture of me on the scanner and there is no way you could tell if it was a man or a women. It was just the outline of a person and there was a yellow box that showed up over the chest area so that is why they patted me down. When they did it they had me hold my arms up and they checked under my arms (the side of my bra) and then check my back where my bra fastens. That was all there was to the scan. I guess Europe is not using the same type of pictures that the US TSA is claiming to be using. Also, when I got to Detroit (my first stop back in the US), they had the full body scanner but were only using it on those who set off the regular scanner. So overall I didnít have any trouble going thru security and did not feel like I was being invaded. Maybe the US needs to take some lessons from Europe and tell us the truth about the full body scanners!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

SARDG
11-28-2010, 14:48
Hey I just got back from Hungary this past Tuesday (11/23). I did go thru the full body scanner in Amsterdam and it was nothing like what they are talking about and showing us here in the US... ...I was patted down which I realized was because of my underwire bra. I did see the picture of me on the scanner and there is no way you could tell if it was a man or a women. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
They said on the news that new, less-invasive software/machines are being examined for use by TSA, so we'll see.

I used to travel about 20-25 weeks a year - but most of it prior to 9/11. I forgot about the underwires... had to stop wearing those, too.

AA#5
11-28-2010, 21:41
basically, if there were any other way for me to get to Poland next summer besides fly, I would take it, because of the radiation issues (I've been irradiated more than enough in my life and don't need more, thank you), and because THEY ARE WASTING MY TAX DOLLARS patting down 6 years olds and grandmothers in wheel chairs. START PROFILING and stop playing stupid games with people's lives. Imbeciles. And BTW, I won't be taking my kids to Poland next year - and this is half the reason why. No one pats down my kids.

Mrs.Cicero

Therein lies the rub... If enough people didn't fly, they'd have to come to their senses & stop this crap. It doesn't keep us safe anyway.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/tsa-scans-security-theater-interview

SARDG
11-29-2010, 00:51
Therein lies the rub... If enough people didn't fly, they'd have to come to their senses & stop this crap. It doesn't keep us safe anyway.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/tsa-scans-security-theater-interview
Well... that was one man's editorialized opinion... Rather cheapens what many are doing out there on the front line to try to make us safer by at least continuing with the 'pressure' on the wannabes.

Okay... the system's not perfect, the procedures are invasive - but Al-Qaeda won't stop from their end, and we can't cease the defense from ours.

Ugh, this is getting too political.

F350
11-29-2010, 03:48
I gave up flying in any uniform that includes fruit salad and other (metal) devices. Once was enough several years ago, just because of what you mentioned. The excessive inconvenience and extra time was my beef - more than the pat down.

It does make an interesting scene at the airport when the military is wanded and patted down - or pulled aside like the rest of the potential terrorists.

BUT will Nancy Pee-Loosely get the porno-scan or feel up when she has to give up her private military jet and start flying commercial??????????????????

Anyone want to bet against her getting the VIP walk around?????????????

SARDG
11-29-2010, 09:54
were you on orders. Legally they arent allowed to do any extra search on you if you are under orders so next time ask for a manager.
Believe this was addressed to Eurodriver, but I can think of another instance where I didn't stand my ground regarding that...

Flew to Houston in '06 or '07 for a SAR competition (Search and Rescue - ergo, my screen name...) - under orders. By that time I had given up flying in any dress uni because of the metal ringing all the bells, and was flying in civies.

I flew IN on one airline, but my flight OUT was cancelled on that same airline and I had to take a different airline home. To that airline, my flight looked like a one-way ticket and everyone knows that if you are a terrorist who is going to blow up a plane, you only purchase a one-way ticket - the idea being, you won't be alive to need a return ticket.

Well, the airline decided to hand-inspect my checked bag PRIOR TO having it scanned. More or less stood out in the open while a TSA agent removed all my underwear and EVERY other single item in the suitcase. She was wonderfully slow and methodical and it took at least 20 minutes while the clock ticked for my flight. Someone later said that I should have produced my orders and should have gotten a waiver on that bag search. Still not certain if that applies when not in uniform, but I suppose it does. Anyway, I had nothing to hide - except dirty underwear - so didn't press the issue.

Now when I fly - under orders or not - I check my EDC firearm. I don't fly as much now, but have had zero problems at any airport, on any airline, when doing so. But TSA has always been happy with the big scanners and have never opened my suitcase since (except once when I also had a lot of electronic gear stashed as well.) In that case, I was happy that they questioned it. That means that they may question and check the next person who MAY BE an actual terrorist.

The country came together immediately following 9/11 and there was a huge wave of patriotism. Now I feel that that date and those acts have been largely forgotten by many Americans. If some of you can remember back, the National Guard for several months was standing around airports with long rifles over their shoulder. Large public (family-oriented) gatherings, after they began again, had those same Nat'l Guard - something Americans usually associate with third world countries. (I think they call them 'developing' countries now.) Although we don't currently see that level of security any more, I think it's safe to say that we will NEVER return to pre 9/11 days - Bush called it the "new normalcy".

Silverhawk500
11-29-2010, 12:02
To SARDG: If you know any of the National guard that were stationed in NJ, ask them about "going through security " in uniform!!?? and their ammunition status!!, I think you might be surprised.
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

SARDG
11-29-2010, 12:55
To SARDG: If you know any of the National guard that were stationed in NJ, ask them about "going through security " in uniform!!?? and their ammunition status!!, I think you might be surprised.
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
Don't know a sole in the Nat'l Guard. I'm former Navy and currently Coast Guard Aux. Also, never been to Jersey nor remember knowing anyone from there - or anyone who would admit it. ;)

I'm not even certain if you are talking about ordered and uniformed NG with rifles and on duty in those airports. Please tell us what's on your mind. Inquiring minds...

Thanks.

southern118
11-29-2010, 18:04
It is suppsosbly a 5000 dollar fine if they try to stop you while on orders. I have had bag searches come up mulitple times while flying. When i get there they pull it up i show my military ID and they wave it. I havent ever really had a problem except when wearing shirt stays or dress uniform

Silverhawk500
11-29-2010, 23:01
The point was they were not issued as many rds as I think they should have been issued. My Opinion. Be Safe.

FrogWithAGlock
12-06-2010, 10:13
I love to fly. My favorite mode of travel.

But I don't fly anymore, unless it's urgent.... and then I don't take the kids with me.

We spend all this time instilling in our kids that others don't have the right to touch them on the groin, chest, buttocks...... TSA is not getting a "pass" from me, just because it isn't PC to profile.

Cody Jarrett
12-06-2010, 10:15
Have some fun with it. Pack a 20" pepperoni in your underwear.

grizman
12-07-2010, 07:54
Looks like I will never fly commercial again! Shrapnel in upper right chest. Pins and plate in right fibula. Shrapnel in upper left arm. Shrapnel in left thigh. All compliments of the US Army medical corps. The pins and plate in the right fibula that was a necessity. Leaving the shrapnel in on three occasions just plain lazy! No it doesn't cause pain but it sure wasn't there before each injury!

Last time I flew pre 911 I had to strip down to my BVD's to show the scars from the wounds and be wanded in those areas . I was carrying copies of my VA medical papers stating that I indeed had shrapnel in certain locations left inplace as it was determined it would not cause any complications and would increase my recovery time to remove them! Even had diagrams showing the placement size and shape of the pieces. Those documents meant nothing the screener back then, I am sure they would mean even less now!

The TSA just like many of the federal agencies ignore the bill of rights all the time "for our protection"! It is time we the people voted these self serving fat cats out of office and get back on the path our fore fathers set this nation on!

SARDG
12-08-2010, 17:08
Looks like I will never fly commercial again! Shrapnel in upper right chest. Pins and plate in right fibula. Shrapnel in upper left arm. Shrapnel in left thigh. All compliments of the US Army medical corps. The pins and plate in the right fibula that was a necessity. Leaving the shrapnel in on three occasions just plain lazy! No it doesn't cause pain but it sure wasn't there before each injury!...

...The TSA just like many of the federal agencies ignore the bill of rights all the time "for our protection"! It is time we the people voted these self serving fat cats out of office and get back on the path our fore fathers set this nation on!
First, thanks for your service. It sounds as though you gave more than many.

But secondly... then, centuries ago, our fore fathers could never have imagined where we would be in 2010, or who and what types of threats, new technologies, new zealots would befall us. Today, as we would say in the Navy and Coast Guard, America has to "adjust for set and drift" to stay on course.

Certainly, you and every other American can go to the polls and have your vote and voice heard. We still have that.

Happy Hunting
12-08-2010, 17:30
The man who allows his freedom to be taken away in the name of security will have neither.

Someone important said that.

SARDG
12-08-2010, 18:44
The man who allows his freedom to be taken away in the name of security will have neither.

Someone important said that.Paraphrased...

He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.

People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.

Ben Franklin, 1706-1790, Pre 9-11, pre Desert Storm, pre Vietnam, pre Korea, pre... you get the idea...


"the times they are a changing..."
Bob Dylan, 1941-

pupcuss27
12-08-2010, 19:13
Have some fun with it. Pack a 20" pepperoni in your underwear.

That is what TSA Barney is hunting...:whistling:

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/3289/barneysdreamjobtsa.jpg

grizman
12-09-2010, 00:05
First, thanks for your service. It sounds as though you gave more than many.

But secondly... then, centuries ago, our fore fathers could never have imagined where we would be in 2010, or who and what types of threats, new technologies, new zealots would befall us. Today, as we would say in the Navy and Coast Guard, America has to "adjust for set and drift" to stay on course.

Certainly, you and every other American can go to the polls and have your vote and voice heard. We still have that.

It is the fact that the TSA is using invasive and humiliating techniques that are no more effective than the less "harsh" methods employed by most other countries.
I fought, bled and endured the pain to keep all of us free. Now we are content to allow our costly freedom to be slowly taken away so we "feel" safe from the world. What makes you feel safe from our own leadership and political machine? Or is the distraction of the war on terrorism clouding our national vision to the point we forget to check our six? The real threat is the subversive progressive liberatards slipping up behind us intent on transforming our freedom into a repressive socialist regime so slowly that it goes unseen by most of the population! Think about it just how much more personal freedom do we have now compared to cold war era soviet subject?

Thank you, but many gave much more than I!
I carry the scar's and some internal souvenir's no doubt.

I see it this way I can home upright, I served did my duty and my part. Those that came home laying down they are the ones who gave and sacrificed!:patriot:

Happy Hunting
12-09-2010, 02:00
SARDG: I don't understand your conclusion. Are you saying that the expression no longer applies due to wars and violence? You do realize that the second president lived during all of that and worse, right?

These scans and pat-downs are wrong due to their violation of rights in order to APPEAR to be keeping people safe. These new measures are a knee-jerk reaction and are inherently disadvantaged because they always come after the terrorists try something new.

Also, what to Korea, Vietnam, and Desert Storm have to do with homeland security measures?

ancient_serpent
12-09-2010, 02:49
Looks like I will never fly commercial again! Shrapnel in upper right chest. Pins and plate in right fibula. Shrapnel in upper left arm. Shrapnel in left thigh. All compliments of the US Army medical corps. The pins and plate in the right fibula that was a necessity. Leaving the shrapnel in on three occasions just plain lazy! No it doesn't cause pain but it sure wasn't there before each injury!

Last time I flew pre 911 I had to strip down to my BVD's to show the scars from the wounds and be wanded in those areas . I was carrying copies of my VA medical papers stating that I indeed had shrapnel in certain locations left inplace as it was determined it would not cause any complications and would increase my recovery time! Even had diagrams showing the placement size and shape of the pieces. Those documents meant nothing the screener back then, I am sure they would mean even less now!

The TSA just like many of the federal agencies ignore the bill of rights all the time "for our protection"! It is time we the people voted these self serving fat cats out of office and get back on the path our fore fathers set this nation on!

Makes me ashamed of us, that we allow this shoddy treatment of a wounded war veteran in America.

SARDG
12-09-2010, 09:53
I realize it's a slippery slope and a balance must be reached - but I say that the alternative is loss of American lives at a wholesale rate. If we had done nothing different after 9-11 do you believe that mass murders like that would have ceased on their own? That was rhetorical - they would not have ceased and many more would have likely perished at the hands of terrorists. The federal government certainly has to struggle and must be struggling to get to a point where our citizens are adequately protected and rights are not infringed.


SARDG: I don't understand your conclusion. Are you saying that the expression no longer applies due to wars and violence? You do realize that the second president lived during all of that and worse, right?

These scans and pat-downs are wrong due to their violation of rights in order to APPEAR to be keeping people safe. These new measures are a knee-jerk reaction and are inherently disadvantaged because they always come after the terrorists try something new.

Also, what to Korea, Vietnam, and Desert Storm have to do with homeland security measures?
Happy Hunting- see above. It isn't just an 'appearance', it's an actuality that increased security measures keep us safer. Are some measures knee-jerk? Probably... But the government has to act swiftly when something happens. I believe that American's general protest of current measures will reduce some of the 'invasive' properties of TSA's checks - but at what cost? We won't know until something happens - if something happens, or as many would agree, WHEN something happens.

The enemies in Desert Storm, Vietnam, Korea, etc. placed no particular value on life and never had the same freedoms and rights that we try to protect -those rights that grizman and many others have fought and died for to protect. We are currently involved in a war that terrorists insist on bringing to our shores, our heartland - the Global War on Terrorism - and the military has a current decoration for serving since 9-11; the GWOT Medal. The American citizenry is part of that war, but our military is fighting it for us - and fighting largely against zealots whose entire stated purpose for living is to kill Americans and others in the free world. It is difficult to defend against that, but American citizens being part of that war, will have to endure some 'inconveniences' now and again.


All gave some, some gave all...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nJTqpKlZ9U

larry_minn
12-11-2010, 20:58
It is sad. I also used to like to fly. Thankfully I don't mind driving. Part of reason the Thanksgiving eve protest was nothing is they did NOT do the grope and irradiate at most airports. It was well reported that the machines were NOT used.

4wheel1
12-12-2010, 05:48
All gave some, some gave all...[/I]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nJTqpKlZ9U



Well said Sardg. What has been given by many brave Ameicans doesn't make me think twice about being scanned or patted down so that many more lives may be saved.

larry_minn
12-12-2010, 14:28
Dang. I find out I am not a good American. So I need to accept whatever the government says? Am I allowed to at least not have a smile on my face when I submit?

Thank goodnes the founding fathers never objected to anything. Just think what could have happened if they had ever said that something the legit government (some king IIRC) ordered. They knew how to be loyal subjects. I guess that is the lesson we need to learn?

zysus
12-15-2010, 19:04
Rather than complaining on the internet do what I did and write your US Senator(s) and Reps. You can even email them.

They are still elected officials who want to stay that way. Make it clear that something needs to be done about this if they want your future support at the polls.

Talk about it around the dinner table and with your friends. Get your friends to call and email their reps.

That's the first few steps.

Soap Box, Ballot Box, Ammo Box. Use in that order, starting now.

ferretray
12-16-2010, 00:02
I won't submit to abuse, be it at the hands of a street thug or anyone acting "Under color of law".

ferretray
12-16-2010, 00:06
I realize it's a slippery slope and a balance must be reached - but I say that the alternative is loss of American lives at a wholesale rate. If we had done nothing different after 9-11 do you believe that mass murders like that would have ceased on their own? That was rhetorical - they would not have ceased and many more would have likely perished at the hands of terrorists. The federal government certainly has to struggle and must be struggling to get to a point where our citizens are adequately protected and rights are not infringed.



Happy Hunting- see above. It isn't just an 'appearance', it's an actuality that increased security measures keep us safer. Are some measures knee-jerk? Probably... But the government has to act swiftly when something happens. I believe that American's general protest of current measures will reduce some of the 'invasive' properties of TSA's checks - but at what cost? We won't know until something happens - if something happens, or as many would agree, WHEN something happens.

The enemies in Desert Storm, Vietnam, Korea, etc. placed no particular value on life and never had the same freedoms and rights that we try to protect -those rights that grizman and many others have fought and died for to protect. We are currently involved in a war that terrorists insist on bringing to our shores, our heartland - the Global War on Terrorism - and the military has a current decoration for serving since 9-11; the GWOT Medal. The American citizenry is part of that war, but our military is fighting it for us - and fighting largely against zealots whose entire stated purpose for living is to kill Americans and others in the free world. It is difficult to defend against that, but American citizens being part of that war, will have to endure some 'inconveniences' now and again.


All gave some, some gave all...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nJTqpKlZ9U

Those that would give up their freedom for security deserve neither.
I'm a veteran of the USMC/USN. my fellow "Civilians" have died by the thousands in the so-called GWOT. When we begin giving up our freedoms we have already lost.

hamster
12-16-2010, 20:00
If we had done nothing different after 9-11 do you believe that mass murders like that would have ceased on their own?

If we had done nothing, small knives and boxcutters would still be allowed on planes. Do you honestly think a plane full of passengers would allow anyone to take over a plane with a 1 inch blade? Seems to me that the fact that passengers are now more vigilant has stopped more incidents than anything else.

SARDG
12-16-2010, 20:38
If we had done nothing, small knives and boxcutters would still be allowed on planes. Do you honestly think a plane full of passengers would allow anyone to take over a plane with a 1 inch blade? Seems to me that the fact that passengers are now more vigilant has stopped more incidents than anything else.
Vigilance is a commendable commodity for passengers today, but it takes intestinal fortitude (guts) to take back a plane. This forum is full of discussions regarding sheep.

During 9-11 passengers in only one plane out of four was prepared to attempt to do that. With odds like that, we'll require preventive and pro-active measures for the other three plane-loads of passengers and fuel.

Mrs.Cicero
12-17-2010, 09:46
I realize it's a slippery slope and a balance must be reached - but I say that the alternative is loss of American lives at a wholesale rate. If we had done nothing different after 9-11 do you believe that mass murders like that would have ceased on their own? That was rhetorical - they would not have ceased and many more would have likely perished at the hands of terrorists. The federal government certainly has to struggle and must be struggling to get to a point where our citizens are adequately protected and rights are not infringed.

Happy Hunting- see above. It isn't just an 'appearance', it's an actuality that increased security measures keep us safer. Are some measures knee-jerk? Probably... But the government has to act swiftly when something happens. I believe that American's general protest of current measures will reduce some of the 'invasive' properties of TSA's checks - but at what cost? We won't know until something happens - if something happens, or as many would agree, WHEN something happens.

The enemies in Desert Storm, Vietnam, Korea, etc. placed no particular value on life and never had the same freedoms and rights that we try to protect -those rights that grizman and many others have fought and died for to protect. We are currently involved in a war that terrorists insist on bringing to our shores, our heartland - the Global War on Terrorism - and the military has a current decoration for serving since 9-11; the GWOT Medal. The American citizenry is part of that war, but our military is fighting it for us - and fighting largely against zealots whose entire stated purpose for living is to kill Americans and others in the free world. It is difficult to defend against that, but American citizens being part of that war, will have to endure some 'inconveniences' now and again.




There are some assumptions in here that I just don't buy into. The first is that the alternative to gov't action is wholesale slaughter of the American people. It is my personal opinion, backed by nothing but the changes in my own behavior and that of those friends and family whom I travel with, that individual awareness and preparedness for 9-11 type attacks increased to the point that those attacks would be far less successful in the future. It does not take our Gov't stripping our citizens of their rights (along with their clothes) in order to accomplish this. The Gov't did not need to do anything. It should have left the "doing" to its citizens, and to the businesses involved... I rather STRONGLY suspect that the airlines would NOT be feeling up 80 year old Grandmothers, and calling that a "successful increased security measure".

Many, if not most, of the "increased security measures" are strictly for show and are a PC waste of taxpayers money. They have not prevented anything. Can you say shoe bomber? underwear bomber? Now the freaks are recruiting more nutcases in whom they intend to implant bombs surgically. There is NO measure that the gov't can take short of forcing everyone to fly naked and chained to their seats following a CAT scan, that will ensure no passengers engage in terroristic activity. And if we DO sink to that level... the terrorists will simply get jobs as airplane mechanics and pilots and bomb things that way.

The assumption that the gov't must act quickly... is diametrically opposed to the principles our gov't was founded upon... if you read the Founders' writings, you will find that they designed the gov't specifically to keep it from acting quickly, because quick action is reactive and emotional, not rational nor well-considered. Quick action is driven by "What's best to get me re-elected?" rather than "What is best for this Nation in the long-term?"

The Nation would be better served by efforts to encourage personal responsibility for collective safety on the part of its citizens, than by efforts to trick us all into a false feeling of security based on knee-jerk policies that violate all our rights, and that force us into a mindset closer to that of our enemy, than of the mindset that made these States into a Nation.

We agree that something will happen. It will happen regardless of any measures the Gov't puts into place, because terrorists are capable of thinking outside of any box we attempt to place them in. The only solution that does not result in an oppressed populace whose God-given rights are violated daily is one in which the citizens bear some responsibility for their own safety, the safety of their fellow citizens, and the continuance of their chosen form of Gov't... rather than depending on a Nanny State to provide them with an illusion of security.

Mrs.Cicero

SARDG
12-17-2010, 10:22
There are some assumptions in here that I just don't buy into. The first is that the alternative to gov't action is wholesale slaughter of the American people. It is my personal opinion, backed by nothing but the changes in my own behavior and that of those friends and family whom I travel with, that individual awareness and preparedness for 9-11 type attacks increased to the point that those attacks would be far less successful in the future. It does not take our Gov't stripping our citizens of their rights (along with their clothes) in order to accomplish this. The Gov't did not need to do anything. It should have left the "doing" to its citizens, and to the businesses involved... I rather STRONGLY suspect that the airlines would NOT be feeling up 80 year old Grandmothers, and calling that a "successful increased security measure".

Many, if not most, of the "increased security measures" are strictly for show and are a PC waste of taxpayers money. They have not prevented anything. Can you say shoe bomber? underwear bomber? Now the freaks are recruiting more nutcases in whom they intend to implant bombs surgically. There is NO measure that the gov't can take short of forcing everyone to fly naked and chained to their seats following a CAT scan, that will ensure no passengers engage in terroristic activity. And if we DO sink to that level... the terrorists will simply get jobs as airplane mechanics and pilots and bomb things that way.

The assumption that the gov't must act quickly... is diametrically opposed to the principles our gov't was founded upon... if you read the Founders' writings, you will find that they designed the gov't specifically to keep it from acting quickly, because quick action is reactive and emotional, not rational nor well-considered. Quick action is driven by "What's best to get me re-elected?" rather than "What is best for this Nation in the long-term?"

The Nation would be better served by efforts to encourage personal responsibility for collective safety on the part of its citizens, than by efforts to trick us all into a false feeling of security based on knee-jerk policies that violate all our rights, and that force us into a mindset closer to that of our enemy, than of the mindset that made these States into a Nation.

We agree that something will happen. It will happen regardless of any measures the Gov't puts into place, because terrorists are capable of thinking outside of any box we attempt to place them in. The only solution that does not result in an oppressed populace whose God-given rights are violated daily is one in which the citizens bear some responsibility for their own safety, the safety of their fellow citizens, and the continuance of their chosen form of Gov't... rather than depending on a Nanny State to provide them with an illusion of security.

Mrs.Cicero
Mrs. Cicero- Very well written and stated. I really do hope that at least most of what you say is true and that somehow... we avoid any future attacks. Only time will tell.

My ideals are the same as most other patriotic Americans on this board - I'm just a bit too pragmatic now and again.

KN