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BRoberts243
11-20-2010, 08:24
Just wondering what most of you think about silencers...
I've always assumed they are usually involved w non defensive or illegitimate shootings just assuming that most ppl have silencers bc they don't want to be heard when they shoot... and if you're attacked and have to defend urself it seems u would want someone to hear that something wrong.

Once again just wanting opinions, not sure what the gen consensus is on silencers here. Would love to hear some input, especially if there r legal legitimate reasons to have one. I did see an add in a gun magazine that says make love loudly make war silently and am kind of having trouble grasping exactly what situation I would be in that I would want to be silent while shooting
Thanks

usmc4641
11-20-2010, 08:29
They help when firing powerful cartridges and also a great deal with full automatic fire.
In most instances a suppressor does not actually silence a firearm like they show on the television. They do however help with the higher db range when you are shooting indoors or close to other people.

AgentAdam
11-20-2010, 08:35
Using NFA registered items like short barreled rifles,sawed off shotguns,full auto,and suppressors are not recommended for SD shootings. It kinda falls under the lawyer hay day category like trigger jobs,modified safeties,and reloads. I only know of 2 SD shootings with FA so there is not much case info on it. Its not illegal and they say justified is justified but a lawyer could bad mouth you.

You could want to use one indoors for the same reason LE/SWAT sometimes do. So you don't blow your eardrums out in tight quarters with a loud firearm like a .45 or AR15. It doesn't make it all that quiet. Just tolerable.

Adam5
11-20-2010, 08:36
It's nice being able to shoot in the country without hearing protection on.

With the right round in a suppressed .22 you can hear the slide closing. It's no louder than a air pistol.

A suppressed 9mm with subsonic rounds is no louder than a .22 short.

rjrivero
11-20-2010, 09:50
Suppressors get a bad rap here in the states. They've been demonized by the left, and depicted unrealistically in the Liberal Hollywood Lore. They have done this so effectively, they even have pro 2nd amendment types questioning the "legitimacy" of suppressor use.

Suppressors help to limit the noise of shooting. In fact, in in certain EUROPEAN Countries, it's considered bad manners to shoot WITHOUT a suppressor. Good neighbors are quiet neighbors.

Suppressors are nice for teaching new shooters. The recoil is one thing, and the muzzle blast is something else all together. A more tame muzzle blast helps concentrated on the fundamentals of shooting with out the flash bang distraction.

Hearing protection is also the biggest argument for shooting suppressed. On the range, it's nice to be able to communicate without shouting. It's also a big benefit for home defence. I don't know how many folks keep a set of ear muffs next to their home defence gun. Setting off a round in the confines of your house WILL damage your hearing. With a good suppressor, you limit that damage.

I shot a carbine shoot last month and was fortunate to use a Trident 9 on my 9mm Glock. It is a MUCH nicer to shoot with a suppressor than without from an aesthetic standpoint.

This magazine had one 124gr bullet in it, the rest were 147gr. It's a glock long slide with a Trident-9 Suppressor on it.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/video.php?v=1534982487592&subj=1254105894

DustyJacket
11-20-2010, 11:42
...I've always assumed they are usually involved w non defensive or illegitimate shootings...

Incorrect. You get too much info from Hollywood.

Unless you fabricate your own without a Form 1 (illegal), or steal one (illegal), you have to jump through paperwork hoops and wait time that make California gun laws look friendly. (In the USA - in some other countries you can go to the hardware store for one.)

It reduces my firearms to hearing safe and really reduces the recoil of my .308 - my daughter loves shooting that rifle.

http://www.dustyjacket.com/shooting/p229-1.jpg


http://www.dustyjacket.com/shooting/rem700sps_tactical.jpg


http://www.dustyjacket.com/shooting/rra_lar9.jpg


http://www.dustyjacket.com/shooting/Deanna-308-5.jpg

1 old 0311
11-20-2010, 12:47
Incorrect. You get too much info from Hollywood.

Unless you fabricate your own without a Form 1 (illegal), or steal one (illegal), you have to jump through paperwork hoops and wait time that make California gun laws look friendly. (In the USA - in some other countries you can go to the hardware store for one.)

It reduces my firearms to hearing safe and really reduces the recoil of my .308 - my daughter loves shooting that rifle.

http://www.dustyjacket.com/shooting/p229-1.jpg


http://www.dustyjacket.com/shooting/rem700sps_tactical.jpg


http://www.dustyjacket.com/shooting/rra_lar9.jpg


http://www.dustyjacket.com/shooting/Deanna-308-5.jpg


Great shooting. You taught your little girl well.:wavey:

Christof60
11-20-2010, 13:23
Notice how you (the thread starter) were the only one to call it a "Silencer".... That word came from hollywood..
The ATF rules concerning suppressors is stunningly stupid (how many federal laws arent?).. If you are going to commit a shooting crime and dont want the entire town to know you have, simply using a pillow will have the same effect of greatly toning down the loud report of your gun... I have even shot .22's with nothing more than a 20 oz plastic soda bottle that made it near-silent.. SO.. If you really want to "silence" a gun for a crime, it is very easy to do..
There is no good reason for the stupid rule... I would like to have them simply to be able to shoot without ear protection, and also for the fact that if I had them, I could enjoy shooting in my own backyard without bringing down the entire police force on my head..

The ATF and the left are really good at making rules that common sense would normally overrule.. Just like on my Sig P556.. WTF makes that weapon so much more deadly if I were to install a foregrip on it, that makes it necessary for me to go through the dreadful paperwork to make it "legal"? Or for that matter, put a stock on it?

While I am at it, I dont have a problem with needing a Class III license to own full auto.. But why did those arseholes in Washington also make it illegal for full auto weapons to be manufactured (except for LEO)? All that did was make a $1500 weapon cost upwards of $15,000 because it is a "Grandfathered" weapon...
Schumer and the likes need to be put on an island out in the middle of the ocean..

Glockdude1
11-20-2010, 13:30
Notice how you (the thread starter) were the only one to call it a "Silencer".... That word came from hollywood..
The ATF rules concerning suppressors is stunningly stupid (how many federal laws arent?).. If you are going to commit a shooting crime and dont want the entire town to know you have, simply using a pillow will have the same effect of greatly toning down the loud report of your gun... I have even shot .22's with nothing more than a 20 oz plastic soda bottle that made it near-silent.. SO.. If you really want to "silence" a gun for a crime, it is very easy to do..
There is no good reason for the stupid rule... I would like to have them simply to be able to shoot without ear protection, and also for the fact that if I had them, I could enjoy shooting in my own backyard without bringing down the entire police force on my head..

The ATF and the left are really good at making rules that common sense would normally overrule.. Just like on my Sig P556.. WTF makes that weapon so much more deadly if I were to install a foregrip on it, that makes it necessary for me to go through the dreadful paperwork to make it "legal"? Or for that matter, put a stock on it?

While I am at it, I dont have a problem with needing a Class III license to own full auto.. But why did those arseholes in Washington also make it illegal for full auto weapons to be manufactured (except for LEO)? All that did was make a $1500 weapon cost upwards of $15,000 because it is a "Grandfathered" weapon...
Schumer and the likes need to be put on an island out in the middle of the ocean..

Great post, except for the Class 3 license.......No such thing, just a approved $200 tax stamp.

:cool:

hatidua
11-20-2010, 13:34
I've always assumed they are usually involved w non defensive or illegitimate shootings just assuming that most ppl have silencers bc they don't want to be heard when they shoot...

Wrong. (and it's "suppressor", not silencer - 'silencer' is a Hollywood/mall ninja term that inaccurately describes what the item is capable of)

Just about the only people you'll find with negative views on suppressors are those that know absolutely nothing about them or the laws surrounding their ownership.

GeorgiaRedfish
11-20-2010, 13:37
http://www.dustyjacket.com/shooting/Deanna-308-5.jpg

Bad move posting that, especially on this website.




Its a joke:supergrin:

Glockdude1
11-20-2010, 13:39
Wrong. (and it's "suppressor", not silencer - 'silencer' is a Hollywood/mall ninja term that inaccurately describes what the item is capable of)

Just about the only people you'll find with negative views on suppressors are those that know absolutely nothing about them or the laws surrounding their ownership.

:agree:

skipsan
11-20-2010, 13:40
The Form 4 which I just got back from ATF, calls the device a "silencer". I didn't fill it out, the retailer who sold me the device did.

For reference, it took five weeks to get the local LEO (sheriff Joe Arpaio) to sign the application. He did send me a written apology for the delay. The trip to the ATF took another 2 months.

All-in-all, its a gadget and an expensive one at that--$425 for the "device" and $200 for the stamp. As noted above, it would have legitimate purpose(s) short of clandestine use, but I got it as a novelty, and to "experience" the paperwork required. Given that the paperwork has to be repeated for every controlled item one would think that the market for supressors, SBRs, etc would be limited, but there are shops locally that specialize in that kind of item, so guess not. For the guys going after the full mgs, the waiting period is probably not a big deal.

FWIW, the supressor (Sparrow model, by Silencer Co.) makes the pistol sound like a pneumatic stapler using subsonic ammo. I thought the first shot was a squib until I saw the hole in the target.

Leigh
11-20-2010, 13:50
[QUOTE=hatidua;16330962]Wrong. (and it's "suppressor", not silencer - 'silencer' is a Hollywood/mall ninja term that inaccurately describes what the item is capable of)

Incorrect.

The term "silencer" was not an invention of Hollywood at all.

While not technically correct, it was coined by Hiram Maxim around 1902.

RWBlue
11-20-2010, 14:02
I prefer to be quiet when I shoot. I am not doing something illegal, I just don't want to draw attention to myself.

rjrivero
11-20-2010, 14:59
Wrong. (and it's "suppressor", not silencer - 'silencer' is a Hollywood/mall ninja term that inaccurately describes what the item is capable of)

Incorrect.

The term "silencer" was not an invention of Hollywood at all.

While not technically correct, it was coined by Hiram Maxim around 1902.

Leigh is Absolutely correct. In fact, Hiram Maxim developed his "Silencers" for both firearms and that new fangled internal combustion engine in tandem. In England, they call the muffler of a car "silencer" to this day. If you look at the 5320.4 you will see that box C that asks for the "type of firearm" will clearly state "Muffler or Silencer" among the choices. Suppressor does not show on the form at all.

My form 4's all say "Silencer" in the item description. Silencer is indeed the "Legal" term still used today.

TkFF
11-20-2010, 15:15
Personally, I own them because they make me smile. Plus they make everyone who fires my weapons smile and giggle at how absurdly quiet it is. This is especially true with my Osprey 45 using 9mm 158gr subsonics. But generally speaking, they are not as quiet as the movies portray them to be. My AAC M4-1k on the 10.5 AR is still loud.


On the serious side, I enjoy collecting firearms of different types, NFA stuff included.
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm302/blklizard1/osprey%2045/DSCN3715.jpg

DustyJacket
11-20-2010, 15:22
Bad move posting that, especially on this website.

That is a 100 yard target, her first time with that rifle.
She can take care of herself.

It would take a fool to make an off-color comment about a photo of a female proficient with firearms. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned holding a sniper rifle..........

DustyJacket
11-20-2010, 15:29
... I have even shot .22's with nothing more than a 20 oz plastic soda bottle that made it near-silent...

Not a good idea to admit to a federal offense in such a public place.......... unless you paid the $200 tax on that bottle.

rjrivero
11-20-2010, 15:41
Not a good idea to admit to a federal offense in such a public place.......... unless you paid the $200 tax on that bottle.
As long as he did it in EUROPE, it would be OKAY, I guess.....:whistling:

Since we're putting up pictures of our Stamped toys, here's my Frankengun: 9mm AR with a Trident 9.

http://www.revolverforums.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=46&pictureid=268

FPNunes
11-20-2010, 16:09
As long as he did it in EUROPE, it would be OKAY, I guess.....:whistling:

Since we're putting up pictures of our Stamped toys, here's my Frankengun: 9mm AR with a Trident 9.

http://www.revolverforums.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=46&pictureid=268

Very nice. Must be a joy to shoot.

G21ACPBeliever
11-20-2010, 16:29
Not a good idea to admit to a federal offense in such a public place.......... unless you paid the $200 tax on that bottle.

Very true! Very true. Next thing you know some techie at ATF is showing the boss how to track terrorists through personal ID tracers left in the meta when you posted that and as an "experiment" they knock on your door & ask in exactly what scenario were you shooting at what and using a coke bottle to suppress the sound for what reason? Hmm? BIG can of worms on that one! :crying:

Also, why has no one mentioned the reason that they are generally outlawed in the US? To the best of my knowledge it was because a bullet that passes through a suppressor becomes ballistically changed and the slug can no longer be matched to the rifling of the barrel of the gun it was fired from for a ballistic match to be used as evidence in a trial.

TkFF
11-20-2010, 17:05
To answer your question, they are not generally outlawed. I believe 35 or so states allow civilian ownership. As to "ballistically changed" part, once the bullet leaves the barrel, the bullet never touches the interior of the suppressor to change the rifling marks on the bullet. The markings left by the rifling on the bullet would be no different than if fired unsuppressed.


Very true! Very true. Next thing you know some techie at ATF is showing the boss how to track terrorists through personal ID tracers left in the meta when you posted that and as an "experiment" they knock on your door & ask in exactly what scenario were you shooting at what and using a coke bottle to suppress the sound for what reason? Hmm? BIG can of worms on that one! :crying:

Also, why has no one mentioned the reason that they are generally outlawed in the US? To the best of my knowledge it was because a bullet that passes through a suppressor becomes ballistically changed and the slug can no longer be matched to the rifling of the barrel of the gun it was fired from for a ballistic match to be used as evidence in a trial.

DustyJacket
11-20-2010, 17:29
... To the best of my knowledge it was because a bullet that passes through a suppressor becomes ballistically changed and the slug can no longer be matched to the rifling of the barrel of the gun it was fired from for a ballistic match to be used as evidence in a trial.

Nope.
Now in the 1960s and earlier there were some with rubber or felt wipes that touched the bullet, but not enough to change the rifling.

The original reason was to stop poachers.

rjrivero
11-20-2010, 19:09
Very nice. Must be a joy to shoot.
Thanks. It is. The fact that it uses GLOCK mags even more so!
Also, why has no one mentioned the reason that they are generally outlawed in the US? To the best of my knowledge it was because a bullet that passes through a suppressor becomes ballistically changed and the slug can no longer be matched to the rifling of the barrel of the gun it was fired from for a ballistic match to be used as evidence in a trial.
If you're using a modern suppressor and you're bullets are touching your baffles, you ruined your suppressor!

There is no good reason to "outlaw" suppressors. I'm not sure how prevalent poaching is, but I can't see that poaching on the top 10 crimes in America. They pass a LOT of laws under the guise of preserving "Sporting Uses" in America.

rockabillyrider
11-20-2010, 19:19
Incorrect. You get too much info from Hollywood.

Unless you fabricate your own without a Form 1 (illegal), or steal one (illegal), you have to jump through paperwork hoops and wait time that make California gun laws look friendly. (In the USA - in some other countries you can go to the hardware store for one.)

It reduces my firearms to hearing safe and really reduces the recoil of my .308 - my daughter loves shooting that rifle.

http://www.dustyjacket.com/shooting/p229-1.jpg


http://www.dustyjacket.com/shooting/rem700sps_tactical.jpg


http://www.dustyjacket.com/shooting/rra_lar9.jpg


http://www.dustyjacket.com/shooting/Deanna-308-5.jpg
Are you growing marijuana in the back yard????

DustyJacket
11-20-2010, 19:22
red raspberries

My FIL's yard in TN

jtull7
11-20-2010, 19:24
It is only my opinion, but, if one has a silencer or wants a silencer:

1. You are the people who 99% of the ordinary American public thinks is a dangerous gun nut;

2. Normal gun owners are asking themselves, what conceivable reason would a normal gun-owning person need a silencer?

3. You are probably a "wanna-be" who wears tactical sunglasses and has a bayonet on your AR.

I'm sorry, but give me a break. No flame. If it's legal, and it floats your boat, no matter what I happen to think of your boat, it's your right to be as weird as you want to be. It's America.

Flatline
11-20-2010, 19:34
Here in WA we have some fun laws about suppressors: we can own, mount, and have ammo in a gun with a suppressor, but it's illegal to shoot. To do all of this of course we have to pay the tax to the ATF.

I have the Magpul pistol DVDs and they talked about how they liked to use suppressors in their home so that they could still hear after shooting. They went into that by saying further it'll help them know the location of their loved ones. Sounds like reasoning to CYA.

DustyJacket
11-20-2010, 19:45
It is only my opinion, but, if one has a silencer or wants a silencer:

1. You are the people who 99% of the ordinary American public thinks is a dangerous gun nut;

3. You are probably a "wanna-be" who wears tactical sunglasses and has a bayonet on your AR.


wrong.

RWBlue
11-20-2010, 19:45
Nope.
Now in the 1960s and earlier there were some with rubber or felt wipes that touched the bullet, but not enough to change the rifling.

The original reason was to stop poachers.

Wipes are coming back.
At least one manufacturer is using them on a new model.

The idea is that it allows them to make a smaller and lighter suppressor.
It also allows them to make a 9mm suppressor that will be quiet when used as a 22lr suppressor.

The down side is that the suppressor is only quiet for a few rounds.

MarkCO
11-20-2010, 20:52
Perfectly acceptable topic in the free-fire forum, but not in General Glocking.

rjrivero
11-21-2010, 08:43
It is only my opinion, but, if one has a silencer or wants a silencer:

1. You are the people who 99% of the ordinary American public thinks is a dangerous gun nut;

2. Normal gun owners are asking themselves, what conceivable reason would a normal gun-owning person need a silencer?

3. You are probably a "wanna-be" who wears tactical sunglasses and has a bayonet on your AR.

I'm sorry, but give me a break. No flame. If it's legal, and it floats your boat, no matter what I happen to think of your boat, it's your right to be as weird as you want to be. It's America.
A perfect example of exactly how successful Media and Pop Culture TV/Movies have successfully Demonized Suppressors.

"Any one who wants one must be on the lunatic fringe."
"Superior gun owners would NEVER want one, nor NEED one."

Let me ask you ONE question: Do you keep ear protection next to your nightstand gun?

Christof60
11-21-2010, 10:05
Great post, except for the Class 3 license.......No such thing, just a approved $200 tax stamp.

:cool:Really? I thought it was a Class III license you needed to mfg or sell full auto?

Christof60
11-21-2010, 10:09
Wrong. (and it's "suppressor", not silencer - 'silencer' is a Hollywood/mall ninja term that inaccurately describes what the item is capable of)

Incorrect.

The term "silencer" was not an invention of Hollywood at all.

While not technically correct, it was coined by Hiram Maxim around 1902.
But I (and I think the other poster) were referring to today when saying "Silencer" was a hollywood term... Of course, everyday Joe's and Josephine's still think Silencer, but weapon-wise people know it's "Suppressor"...

rjrivero
11-21-2010, 10:09
Really? I thought it was a Class III license you needed to mfg or sell full auto?
Technically, if you want to manufacture and sell full auto/silencers/SBS/SBR/AOW, you would need to pay a Class III Special Occupational Tax annually, and maintain a Type 7 FFL.

Christof60
11-21-2010, 10:16
Not a good idea to admit to a federal offense in such a public place.......... unless you paid the $200 tax on that bottle.

LOL.... I better draw my shades and double lock the door...... :rofl: I suppose holding a pillow at the end of a pistol would also get me sent to Guantanamo?
Seriously, I am sure they COULD nail you if they SAW you do it, or if you had them fixed to a weapon you had. But simply to say you did it just to see if it would work or not would probably not get you in trouble... Besides, statute of limitations expired years ago, even if they could PROVE it actually was done.

I'm just not that fearful or paranoid about the Govt..

Christof60
11-21-2010, 10:19
To the best of my knowledge it was because a bullet that passes through a suppressor becomes ballistically changed

Really? How does it change it? I have never recovered a slug fired from a suppressed weapon, but I cant see how it could severely change the rifling grooves.. Inquiring minds would like to know!

Adam5
11-21-2010, 11:19
It is only my opinion, but, if one has a silencer or wants a silencer:

1. You are the people who 99% of the ordinary American public thinks is a dangerous gun nut;

2. Normal gun owners are asking themselves, what conceivable reason would a normal gun-owning person need a silencer?

3. You are probably a "wanna-be" who wears tactical sunglasses and has a bayonet on your AR.

I'm sorry, but give me a break. No flame. If it's legal, and it floats your boat, no matter what I happen to think of your boat, it's your right to be as weird as you want to be. It's America.

Some of us 'normal shooters' like the ability to shoot without hearing protection on. When I'm coaching my 14 year old daughter on marksmanship it helps to not have to yell over ear plugs.

If I have to discharge a pistol in my house for home defense, I would rather not risk permanent damage to hy hearing, or that of my wise and daughter, or my dogs.

IMHO, there should be a law mandating the use of supressors for hunting. That way it's more polite to non hunters in the area and to other hunters whi may be stalking prey that gets spooked by your shot.

DustyJacket
11-21-2010, 12:02
There are some places in France where you can be cited for NOT using a silencer.

In NZ you can buy them at the hardware store.

In many countries they are not regulated nor controlled in any way. Those countries have figure out that the only way a suppressor can hurt you is for someone to hit you over the head with it. And even then all you'll get is a bump.

Christof60
11-21-2010, 12:18
In NZ you can buy them at the hardware store.


I've always wanted to live in NZ..... They have always seemed to have their shiat together..

Glockdude1
11-21-2010, 14:21
Technically, if you want to manufacture and sell full auto/silencers/SBS/SBR/AOW, you would need to pay a Class III Special Occupational Tax annually, and maintain a Type 7 FFL.

:agree:

Approved Tax stamp just own any thing class 3.

:cool:

DustyJacket
11-21-2010, 14:23
With the exception for a Form 1 to make ONE item.

G21ACPBeliever
11-21-2010, 22:26
In terms of "generally outlawed" I mean that you cannot simply walk in to your neighborhood gun store and buy one in most circumstances due to the rediculous nature of our laws.

By the changing of ballistics I was told by an ME and two forensic sheriffs that in most cases the use of a suppressor changes the ballistic properties of the tail end of a slug, specifically the rifiling marks that can be pinpointed to a specific barrel in a case where they find the firearm that allegedly fired the round that caused a criminal fatality.

Many people would say that there is "no way" that a suppressor could alter the rifiling marks but think... the tail end of the bullet (slug) is super heated metal that is easily malieable by even the slightest change in control. How then is the idea that there is no way that an applied suppressor would alter ballistics logical?

just saying... food for thought. The reason that they are looked at as "clandestine" tools and for assassins and spies in movies would surely not be enough to pass such regulations on their manufacture and purchase ...

DustyJacket
11-22-2010, 04:48
...... the tail end of the bullet (slug) is super heated metal that is easily malieable by even the slightest change in control....
I'm not buying it. Except for an all lead bullet, the copper jacket if pretty durable even at high temps. And lead bulelts deform and rifling striation marks get pretty messed up upin impact.

With a suppressor, the bullet is still untouched after it leaves the muzzle. Flying through the blast chamber and baffles is not going to be able to alter a copper jacket.

Considering the fact that rifling stiations change as a barrel gets worn, expecially with vigorous cleaning, you get better matches from the empty cases than you do from the bullets, unless you are in Hollywood.

TkFF
11-22-2010, 06:38
By the changing of ballistics I was told by an ME and two forensic sheriffs that in most cases the use of a suppressor changes the ballistic properties of the tail end of a slug, specifically the rifiling marks that can be pinpointed to a specific barrel in a case where they find the firearm that allegedly fired the round that caused a criminal fatality.

...

Must be based on extensive testing done during Med school, done during the class that teaches you that filing down a hammer on an AR15 makes it full auto, and 22lr bullets bounce around the human body upon entering doing massive trauma.

Glockdude1
11-22-2010, 08:35
In terms of "generally outlawed" I mean that you cannot simply walk in to your neighborhood gun store and buy one in most circumstances due to the rediculous nature of our laws.

By the changing of ballistics I was told by an ME and two forensic sheriffs that in most cases the use of a suppressor changes the ballistic properties of the tail end of a slug, specifically the rifiling marks that can be pinpointed to a specific barrel in a case where they find the firearm that allegedly fired the round that caused a criminal fatality.

Many people would say that there is "no way" that a suppressor could alter the rifiling marks but think... the tail end of the bullet (slug) is super heated metal that is easily malieable by even the slightest change in control. How then is the idea that there is no way that an applied suppressor would alter ballistics logical?

just saying... food for thought. The reason that they are looked at as "clandestine" tools and for assassins and spies in movies would surely not be enough to pass such regulations on their manufacture and purchase ...

You have been watching way to much CSI..........

:rofl:

RWBlue
11-22-2010, 11:06
In terms of "generally outlawed" I mean that you cannot simply walk in to your neighborhood gun store and buy one in most circumstances due to the rediculous nature of our laws.

By the changing of ballistics I was told by an ME and two forensic sheriffs that in most cases the use of a suppressor changes the ballistic properties of the tail end of a slug, specifically the rifiling marks that can be pinpointed to a specific barrel in a case where they find the firearm that allegedly fired the round that caused a criminal fatality.

Many people would say that there is "no way" that a suppressor could alter the rifiling marks but think... the tail end of the bullet (slug) is super heated metal that is easily malieable by even the slightest change in control. How then is the idea that there is no way that an applied suppressor would alter ballistics logical?..

Assuming we are talking about a can on the end of a barrel and not an internal suppressor, the ME IS WRONG.

RWBlue
11-22-2010, 11:14
Considering the fact that rifling stiations change as a barrel gets worn, expecially with vigorous cleaning, you get better matches from the empty cases than you do from the bullets, unless you are in Hollywood.

Yes rifling changes over time.
So does the empty brass and primer marks.


Shooting someone with a clean gun and then cleaning it will not eliminate this as a forensic evidence.

Draven21
11-22-2010, 13:59
They ARE silencers. Suppressor and silencer can be used interchangably. www.silencertalk.com is the best place for silencer information including reviews, debuts, manufacturer contact, and is ran by Robert Silvers of AAC which is the biggest silencer manufacturer in the country. Silencerco is one of the biggest up and coming companies in the game. As someone said, Maxim invented the silencer whether they are truly silent or not is irrelevant. Seeing a pattern here? . Also many suppressors today are as "silent" as you see in the movies.

Draven21
11-22-2010, 14:08
It is only my opinion, but, if one has a silencer or wants a silencer:

1. You are the people who 99% of the ordinary American public thinks is a dangerous gun nut;

2. Normal gun owners are asking themselves, what conceivable reason would a normal gun-owning person need a silencer?

3. You are probably a "wanna-be" who wears tactical sunglasses and has a bayonet on your AR.

I'm sorry, but give me a break. No flame. If it's legal, and it floats your boat, no matter what I happen to think of your boat, it's your right to be as weird as you want to be. It's America.

There is nothing weird about suppressors. They protect your hearing, reduce recoil, reduce muzzle flash and make it easier for repeat hunting shots. Yes, you can hunt with them at least in Oregon. Also people new to guns find it more enjoyable and less intimidating. In Europe (I know, bad location example) it is considered impolite to shoot without one. Plus they are just plain cool and fun.:supergrin: I am not a wannabe and neither are any of the people I talk to who have "cans". I'm going out on the back porch to shoot my P22 suppressed with neighbors on both sides. Have a nice day.

Haldor
11-25-2010, 17:09
Also, why has no one mentioned the reason that they are generally outlawed in the US? To the best of my knowledge it was because a bullet that passes through a suppressor becomes ballistically changed and the slug can no longer be matched to the rifling of the barrel of the gun it was fired from for a ballistic match to be used as evidence in a trial.

Umm, nope. If the bullet is coming in contact with the baffles in your suppressor then it is going to wear out in no-time.

Besides ballistic matching of rifling as shown in TV crime drama is more voodoo than real. Normally ballistic matching is mostly used to rule out if a gun fired the shot (5 lands on the bullet, 6 lands in the barrel). All it takes to totally change the ballistic signature of a barrel is to run a stainless steel brush through the barrel.

The real reason suppressors are controlled is the Feds don't want people to know how much fun it is to shoot a gun that goes "pew - pew - - - - - - - - - pew - pew - pew".

I am have decided I am going to get myself a .22 and 9mm suppressor for myself for Christmas. Now I just have to decide which ones to get.

Christof60
11-26-2010, 12:28
I'm torn between getting a threaded barrel for my Glock and getting a suppressor or not... I just dont like the rights you give up for one.... It seems that if you decide to go full auto, or any of the other "special" tax stamps, you also forfeit your right to protection against unlawful search and seizure laws., i.e., they can enter your home any time and demand to look at whatever they want...
Not that I have anything to hide, I just wouldnt like the fact that they could...
And I was told this by an LEO who has several full auto's, suppressors, and SBR weapons.. His words of advice to me "make sure you know what you are giving up to have a cool toy"...

bdavis
11-26-2010, 12:35
I am have decided I am going to get myself a .22 and 9mm suppressor for myself for Christmas. Now I just have to decide which ones to get.

I have a few .22 and 9mm suppressors and would be willing to go shoot some with you to let you see what you like and do not like.

email is in my profile

bdavis
11-26-2010, 12:38
I'm torn between getting a threaded barrel for my Glock and getting a suppressor or not... I just dont like the rights you give up for one.... It seems that if you decide to go full auto, or any of the other "special" tax stamps, you also forfeit your right to protection against unlawful search and seizure laws., i.e., they can enter your home any time and demand to look at whatever they want...
Not that I have anything to hide, I just wouldnt like the fact that they could...
And I was told this by an LEO who has several full auto's, suppressors, and SBR weapons.. His words of advice to me "make sure you know what you are giving up to have a cool toy"...

I have wondered if there is some actual wording or case law to back up what he says. I have heard this hearsay before but have never seen it supported.

Thanks

rjrivero
11-26-2010, 12:52
I'm torn between getting a threaded barrel for my Glock and getting a suppressor or not... I just dont like the rights you give up for one.... It seems that if you decide to go full auto, or any of the other "special" tax stamps, you also forfeit your right to protection against unlawful search and seizure laws., i.e., they can enter your home any time and demand to look at whatever they want...
Not that I have anything to hide, I just wouldnt like the fact that they could...
And I was told this by an LEO who has several full auto's, suppressors, and SBR weapons.. His words of advice to me "make sure you know what you are giving up to have a cool toy"...
There was a legal paper on NFA Title 2 items a while back that addressed these issues. An FFL for SURE gives up some privacy for ATF inspection, however, the Stamp for owning Title II's is a TAX FORM. Tax privacy laws apply.

So, the question really becomes one of having a Warrant or not. How hard is it to obtain a Warrant for "man with gun." Doesn't matter if you have a title 2 firearm or not. Warrants are easy to get for folks with guns.

Glockdude1
11-26-2010, 14:15
I'm torn between getting a threaded barrel for my Glock and getting a suppressor or not... I just dont like the rights you give up for one.... It seems that if you decide to go full auto, or any of the other "special" tax stamps, you also forfeit your right to protection against unlawful search and seizure laws., i.e., they can enter your home any time and demand to look at whatever they want...
Not that I have anything to hide, I just wouldnt like the fact that they could...
And I was told this by an LEO who has several full auto's, suppressors, and SBR weapons.. His words of advice to me "make sure you know what you are giving up to have a cool toy"...

Complete and total B.S.


:rofl:

rjrivero
11-26-2010, 14:43
Complete and total B.S.


:rofl:
Hey now, you know as well as I do that you and I are on a passenger manifest to Gitmo.......

RenegadeGlocker
11-26-2010, 14:58
Technically, if you want to manufacture and sell full auto/silencers/SBS/SBR/AOW, you would need to pay a Class III Special Occupational Tax annually, and maintain a Type 7 FFL.

Nope.

MFGs have a type 07 FFL, and a 02 SOT.

Back on topic - Once you shoot a firearm with it is hard to go back. So much more comfortable to not wear hearing protection, and to be able to hear sounds around you.

Just got back to the house from shooting my silenced HK/UMP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXcq92HooLw

DustyJacket
11-26-2010, 15:02
..It seems that if you decide to go full auto, or any of the other "special" tax stamps, you also forfeit your right to protection against unlawful search and seizure laws., i.e., they can enter your home any time and demand to look at whatever they want...
Untrue

And I was told this by an LEO who has several full auto's, suppressors, and SBR weapons.. His words of advice to me "make sure you know what you are giving up to have a cool toy"...
He is wrong

Christof60
11-26-2010, 16:29
Untrue


He is wrongNow THAT is the mature way to answer that... I did state that this is what I was told by an LEO who had all the toys..

Now, just to play devils advocate here, can someone state how they know for sure that it is not the case??
I only ask, because 99% of you have no clue that a W2 is voluntary to fill out, and against federal law to be a requirement of employment.. It use to say it on the bottom of the form, which they stopped printing out decades ago (I assume so people didnt know it?) but remains the law... How do I know for a FACT?? Because I worked for a large corporation in 1998 and became friends with a former IRS agent... He told me where to look it up, and what do you know, he wasnt FOS... .I worked for them for two years after refusing to fill it out, and after a dozen meetings with the corporate tax attorneys, they agreed with me, one even stating "I have a degree in Tax law, and I didnt even know that"... So just because you THINK something isnt the case, doesnt make it so.. I will surely start a quest now to find out, because I could afford a silencer (but no way a full auto)..

So why can they enter/search a FFL dealer anytime, but NOT someone with full auto weapons? I am not saying you are not right, but that just does not make sense...

Anyone with actual law experience on this, or someone that could point me through the maze of federal law books, please feel free to point me in that direction...
I have never been one to believe/disbelieve that a law does/doesnt exist, and lord knows, that is about 99% of the county, I want to read it for myself...

I will be searching tonite.. Best to start at the BATF site, but also going to contact a couple people at the NRA..

rjrivero
11-26-2010, 16:42
Now THAT is the mature way to answer that... I did state that this is what I was told by an LEO who had all the toys..

Now, just to play devils advocate here, can someone state how they know for sure that it is not the case??
I only ask, because 99% of you have no clue that a W2 is voluntary to fill out, and against federal law to be a requirement of employment.. It use to say it on the bottom of the form, which they stopped printing out decades ago (I assume so people didnt know it?) but remains the law... How do I know for a FACT?? Because I worked for a large corporation in 1998 and became friends with a former IRS agent... He told me where to look it up, and what do you know, he wasnt FOS... .I worked for them for two years after refusing to fill it out, and after a dozen meetings with the corporate tax attorneys, they agreed with me, one even stating "I have a degree in Tax law, and I didnt even know that"... So just because you THINK something isnt the case, doesnt make it so.. I will surely start a quest now to find out, because I could afford a silencer (but no way a full auto)..

So why can they enter/search a FFL dealer anytime, but NOT someone with full auto weapons? I am not saying you are not right, but that just does not make sense...

Anyone with actual law experience on this, or someone that could point me through the maze of federal law books, please feel free to point me in that direction...
I have never been one to believe/disbelieve that a law does/doesnt exist, and lord knows, that is about 99% of the county, I want to read it for myself...

I will be searching tonite.. Best to start at the BATF site, but also going to contact a couple people at the NRA..

Great paper on Title 2 items.

LINK HERE. (http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIF1.html)

A good discussion on 4th amendment rights in this paper.

RenegadeGlocker
11-26-2010, 16:44
So why can they enter/search a FFL dealer anytime,

They cannot do that either, without a warrant.

Christof60
11-26-2010, 16:45
Great paper on Title 2 items.

LINK HERE. (http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIF1.html)

A good discussion on 4th amendment rights in this paper.
Thank you so much... Going there right now..

Christof60
11-26-2010, 16:53
They cannot do that either, without a warrant.

well I guess that makes two people FOS... The FFL dealer I have used for the last 5 yrs told me that also, and of late, is thinking of letting his license go.
To quote him "I just dont make that much doing this, and I dont know if it is worth the rights I gave up"...
Now this was when I was thinking of getting my own FFL, because I am tired of always paying the $30 just to have someone have ME fill the paperwork out..
I was shocked to find out that you can no longer get an FFL license unless you are going to do the business out of a building that is not your home. Cant even be your garage or building on your residence property.. No more easy FFL..
And THAT, I got directly from the BATF...
Anyway, Bruce (my FFL) told me that in the myriad of forms and papers, it doesnt state it in plain english, but he had his lawyer go through it prior to sending it in, and his lawyer told him what he was giving up to have the FFL..

And again, I am NOT saying I know anything other than what I am told, but being told by someone who HAS the license and has FULLY researched it (rather than doing as most of us do.. "Yeah yeah, blah blah blah, where do I sign this darn thing") is one thing, being told by someone on an internet site who has an OPINION about the subject is completely different..

Thanks for the link...

Christof60
11-26-2010, 17:03
Got this from an NFA site...
One common misconception is the belief that you give up your rights to search and seizure, and that BATFE agents may inspect your home at will, with no need for a warrant. That is patently false. You do not give up your rights. If an agent of the BATFE wants to enter your home, they must have a warrant, or probable cause that a crime is being committed. Simply owning a registered NFA weapon is not probable cause. And, if BATFE agents want to enter your home, you must have been doing something you shouldn’t have been doing in the first place.

Nice to know that people on here can actually help... I will keep researching though, I want to make sure the Homeland Security Act hasnt changed anything, you know, the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing...

RenegadeGlocker
11-26-2010, 17:05
well I guess that makes two people FOS... The FFL dealer I have used for the last 5 yrs told me that also, and of late, is thinking of letting his license go.
To quote him "I just dont make that much doing this, and I dont know if it is worth the rights I gave up"...


Without a warrant, they can only come during business hours. Searches and hostile encounters are highly unusual. I have never heard of anyone having problems tat was not in violation of their own doing.


I was shocked to find out that you can no longer get an FFL license unless you are going to do the business out of a building that is not your home. Cant even be your garage or building on your residence property.. No more easy FFL..

That is not true either. As long as there are no zoning issues, you can operate out of your home. I know a dozen or more folks who do it.

DustyJacket
11-26-2010, 19:37
[deleted]

dsa1115
11-26-2010, 20:07
Here is the new Remington MSR that I was testing. The gun was equipped with an AAC suppressor and Schmitt & Bender glass, IMO, the best feature of this suppressor is the degree to which it dampens the recoil. Chambered in .300 Win Mag for instance, you'd think you were shooting a 5.56. Unfortunately, all MSR's at least for now, will be shipping to the DOD. The gun comes with 3 barrels with matching bolt heads in .308, .300 Win Mag, and .338 Lapua. Incredible long range accuracy.

Christof60
11-27-2010, 12:22
That is not true either. As long as there are no zoning issues, you can operate out of your home. I know a dozen or more folks who do it.For how long??
I got all the paperwork and began filling it out (two years ago) and right where it says "address" it mentioned something about a "qualifying address" or something of that sort... I called them up for clarification, and they told me that I could not use my home address as the business address, nor could I use any buildings or my garage as the business address... So in short, unless I rent another place, I could not get it... I asked them why most of my FFL contacts did it from their home, and they told me that "they are grandfathered in"....

She also said that if I sent in the paperwork and it had my home address, I would not get approved and would lose any fee's paid.. OR... If they found out I was using an address that was in reality not being used for business, I could face jail time and/or fines..

That came strait from the BATF...

Christof60
11-27-2010, 12:33
Been digging into this subject more and more since I am still kind of miffed that I couldnt apply for an FFL... The "zoning" thing listed by a couple posters seems to be the issue... So basically, if your home is in an area that is not zoned commercial, it will be turned down..
Of course I dont, and have never owned a home that was in a commercially zoned area. I'm sure some people do, but 99% of us live in residential zones... This seems to have been started while Clinton was in office, admittedly the BATF says they are trying to reduce the number of people selling guns from their homes... They also are crossing over the states rights issue, and it is unconstitutional, but how can you fight them?

So, although it is being portrayed here that "you can be an FFL dealer in your home", tossing in the zoning thing almost as a sidenote, that one "little" caveat knocks nearly all of us out of the FFL arena...

Will keep digging...

RenegadeGlocker
11-27-2010, 14:42
Been digging into this subject more and more since I am still kind of miffed that I couldnt apply for an FFL... The "zoning" thing listed by a couple posters seems to be the issue... So basically, if your home is in an area that is not zoned commercial, it will be turned down..


No, you just need to make sure home-based businesses are legal. The actual zoning name is irrelevant.


So, although it is being portrayed here that "you can be an FFL dealer in your home", tossing in the zoning thing almost as a sidenote, that one "little" caveat knocks nearly all of us out of the FFL arena...


No, the majority of FFLs are probably home based. Zoning is an easy issue in most states.

I suggest you D/L the FFL list from atf web site, look up FFLs in your zip code, and see how many operate from the home.

Christof60
11-27-2010, 19:16
I suggest you D/L the FFL list from atf web site, look up FFLs in your zip code, and see how many operate from the home.You dont think I did? Hell, at least half of them are... That is why I wanted to do it... But what do you do when an BATF tells you not to waste your time (or money)?
When I got my CCW here in Florida, I had the same type of crap... I had taken a CCW course back in the 80's, and after several months of waiting, called them up... "We arent sure the signature on the Certificate is legitimate"... Great... The guy who taught the class (one of my college professors) had passed years ago..

Just happened to come up in the conversation that I was a vet... All I had to do then was fax a copy of my DD214 into them and got the license about 2 weeks later...

The BATF lady told me that before they issue the license, an inspection is made of the business place.. Is THAT true? Because she said if they found I was going to operate it out of my home after I told them I wasnt, I could be arrested..

It shouldnt be so hard to trust our Govt, OR, do the right thing and file the paperwork..

RenegadeGlocker
11-27-2010, 20:00
You dont think I did? Hell, at least half of them are... That is why I wanted to do it... But what do you do when an BATF tells you not to waste your time (or money)?


Fill out the application, send it in.


The BATF lady told me that before they issue the license, an inspection is made of the business place.. Is THAT true? Because she said if they found I was going to operate it out of my home after I told them I wasnt, I could be arrested..


Yes there is an inspection. Make sure you have your ducks in a row. As long as you tell the truth on your app, no problem.

UZIFORME
11-28-2010, 02:26
The law allows a FFL dealer to transfer firearms at their licensed address or a gun show in their state of license.

So yes if you license one address and do business at another they would shut you down, the same as if the local retail gun shop starts selling guns in the parking lot of WalMart.

Either your location allows home based business or you rent out the back 50square feet of some retail business in town and transfer guns there.