Government (5") vs Commander (4") model [Archive] - Glock Talk

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RightYouAreKen
11-25-2010, 12:22
Update on purchase decision on page 4!

Hi all,

I have been lurking in the 1911 forums for months now as I contemplate which 1911 to make my first. I've got a G19 now that I shoot at least once a week, and am looking to add something with a bit more heft/history/class, and I've been dreaming about owning a 1911 for years.

I've shot several at the local range, including government models from Nighthawk, Rock Island, and Springfield, and one commander size model in a Kimber Pro Carry II which launched brass at my face the whole time (ouch!).

I am torn which size to get in my first 1911. I like the idea that a commander size would be easier to carry/conceal if I felt like carrying that one day instead of the G19, but I wonder if they are more issue prone and less nice to shoot on a regular basis than a full size government model.

I like simple and classy designs, so have been primarily focusing on the Springfield mil-spec or loaded models, the Pro Carry II or Custom II Kimbers, and the Colt 1991 models.

So, I guess my question is: Do you find fullsize 5" government model 1911s shoot any better/nicer/more reliably than a 4" commander size 1911? If not, I think I'll probably go with a commander model to start, for it's increased versatility.

Thanks for your feedback!
Nathan

TxGun
11-25-2010, 12:32
Personally, I like the 5" Gov't Model 1911s best. I just like their balance and overall feel better. I've also found them to be the most reliable 1911 overall....at least for me. That's not to say the shorter versions can't be...but the timing gets to be a little more critical the shorter you go, IME. In any case, I wouldn't shy away from a Commander-sized gun if that's what I really wanted. I do have a couple, and they are fine...and they are a little better for carry, IMO.

Huevos
11-25-2010, 12:36
I always suggest a full size (5") all steel gun for someones 1st 1911. Best to get used to the platform with the original design. Also, just fyi, a Commander size is a 4-1/4" barrel, a 4" barrel is a Pro or compact depending on the frame.

PlayboyPenguin
11-25-2010, 12:45
I much prefer commander sized 1911's. I pretty much own them exclusively. I find the government sized models to be poorly balanced in my hand. I also prefer the over all aesthetics of the commander models.

As far as reliability, the commanders are time tested and proven.

bac1023
11-25-2010, 12:45
Hi all,

I have been lurking in the 1911 forums for months now as I contemplate which 1911 to make my first. I've got a G19 now that I shoot at least once a week, and am looking to add something with a bit more heft/history/class, and I've been dreaming about owning a 1911 for years.

I've shot several at the local range, including government models from Nighthawk, Rock Island, and Springfield, and one commander size model in a Kimber Pro Carry II which launched brass at my face the whole time (ouch!).

I am torn which size to get in my first 1911. I like the idea that a commander size would be easier to carry/conceal if I felt like carrying that one day instead of the G19, but I wonder if they are more issue prone and less nice to shoot on a regular basis than a full size government model.

I like simple and classy designs, so have been primarily focusing on the Springfield mil-spec or loaded models, the Pro Carry II or Custom II Kimbers, and the Colt 1991 models.

So, I guess my question is: Do you find fullsize 5" government model 1911s shoot any better/nicer/more reliably than a 4" commander size 1911? If not, I think I'll probably go with a commander model to start, for it's increased versatility.

Thanks for your feedback!
Nathan

Commanders are 4.25". Kimber Pros are not commanders.

GreyEclipse
11-25-2010, 12:52
Full size 1911's are my fave.

Since you already have a service size gun then you should go ahead and get the full size 1911. You already have versatility with your G19. I say everyone should have a full size handgun, a "service" size handgun and a compact handgun. A pocket gun is also an option but I prefer guns that I can get a full hand on.

bac1023
11-25-2010, 12:54
Full size 1911's are my fave.



Mine too.

In fact, I only buy them with full size frames, but 5" barrels are my favorite.

MD357
11-25-2010, 13:00
For your first 1911 I'd go with a full size steel model. If you learn to carry that, then everything else is cake. FWIW, you'd be surpised how easy it is to carry one with a good belt and holster. My 1911s in a Milt Sparks VM2 print less than a G19 in a VM2.

G36_Me
11-25-2010, 17:47
This thread makes me smile. Take your time and enjoy this journey. There is only one first 1911. You asked for opinions, here's mine.

1st either gun is a winner, no wrong choice.
2nd, it more the quality of the manufacturer that insures the reliability than the size of the gun.

My full size is a Colt (remake of the WWI model) and cannot be beat.
My smaller, 4.25", is an Ed Brown Executive Carry and cannot be beat.
For me, I dislike (originally said hate, but that's too strong) my Kimber and gave it to my son. He loves it, there's a host of reasons I don't, but he's a young man and I'm old. 90 out of 100 seem to like the Kimber and will never understand or have the same standards.

Keep up the search and good luck. Come back with more questions and we will be sure to give you our opinions. In the end, you are going to be a very happy owner.

AZ Husker
11-25-2010, 18:29
The Colt and the MilSpec will provide very basic guns with few options. If you want more comfort, the Loaded or the Kimbers give you more goodies, most important to me is a beavertail. I have 4", Commander, and 5" guns. I'd recommend starting with a full-size all steel 1911. You get a lot with a SA Loaded, but I prefer an early American Made Kimber.

zombiedefense
11-25-2010, 18:31
For me, the grass is always greener on the other side. I had a full-size Springfield, which I loved, but decided I wanted something more compact for CC.

Now I have a Kimber Pro Carry II, which I also love, but for the last year or so I've been wanting a full-size again.

I say start with a full-size, but realize that you'll probably end up with both. (and as soon as I'm out of school, I will too):cool:

doc540
11-25-2010, 19:02
I much prefer commander sized 1911's. I pretty much own them exclusively. I find the government sized models to be poorly balanced in my hand. I also prefer the over all aesthetics of the commander models.

As far as reliability, the commanders are time tested and proven.

speaks the truth

MD357
11-25-2010, 19:17
speaks the truth

That's interesting, I've honestly never hear anyone say a full sized, steel 1911 was "unbalanced."

RightYouAreKen
11-25-2010, 19:17
Thanks for the feedback on your preferences everyone! I really appreciate the advice and experience sharing here!

It seems like most recommend a full size steel framed 1911 to start. I've been leaning in that direction lately, and the comment that my G19 already fills that "concealable" role for me makes sense. I think it does make sense to get something that is different from what I already have, size and purpose wise.

One of the activities that I soon want to get involved in is IDPA matches here locally. Is one of the 1911 sizes more suited to this type of use than another? Does the heavier slide/frame of a full size lesson felt recoil and allow faster follow up shots, for example?

JK-linux
11-25-2010, 19:45
OK, I'll just throw out that I've been shooting 1911's for a while and always seem to come back to less-is-more full sized Government models. Whatever manufacturer floats your boat is fine. There are folks with strong company loyalties but in the end, it's your call. I really like the Commander-sized 1911, but always seemed to find a Government model in my holster even when I owned both types. I'd suggest less is more as far as whizz-bangs go, but there are people who will insist that you absolutely need an extended x or an ambidextrous y for a 1911 to be "good", "reliable" or some other adverb.
Currently, my carry 1911, and by chance perhaps my most reliable 1911 is a 1992 Norinco 1911-A1 with no fancy finish and a WWI-era spur hammer. Have fun!

GVFlyer
11-25-2010, 19:54
An all steel GI pistol with good sights, like the Remington R1, would be a good first 1911. Full sized 1911s offer better balance and more natural handling than do the shorter barreled/shorter framed 1911s.

doc540
11-25-2010, 20:14
That's interesting, I've honestly never hear anyone say a full sized, steel 1911 was "unbalanced."

Well, ya can't say that again, cause right here in this thread is two of us.:wavey:

It's not so much "unbalanced" as the Commander is "more balanced".

Because of my long, boney fingers and skinny arms the full-size Colt 1911's torqued my wrists after a while.

I tried a Commander in .45 and shot it better.

Then I went through several 9mm Commanders, and it's turned into a regular, smoke-filled love affair.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Colt%20Combat%20Commander%20II/DSCN0116-1-1.jpg:embarassed:

knedrgr
11-25-2010, 20:40
I find this completely funny to have a suggestion without knowing the OP's body built. People start right into the debate of "full size" vs "commander" sizing and concealment and such without ever thinking the OP is either a 300 lbs 6'5" or 120 lbs 5'0" guy/girl. No offense to the OP by my examples.

This all really depends on your body type and built. And keep in mind that both "full size" and "commander" 1911's are built on the same "full size" frame. True commander is a 4.25" barrel. If carrying IWB then most of the slide/barrel is hidden, and won't show/print much. The frame/grip is what will generally print more than the slide, so keep that in mind. That's why some companies offer a "bobtail" to their full size frame. The bobtail reduce the printing of the main spring housing part of the grip. And the officer frame is a little shorter (in the grip height) for easiest concealment. But those generally have a 3.5" or 3" barrel.

So if you have a "larger" waist, then the above point might be mute and it doesn't matter. But if you have a slimmer waist, then it does matter for your frame selection.

AZ Husker
11-25-2010, 21:22
Can't be a 3 or 3.5" barrel that's bobtailed. It must be a full-size frame.

RightYouAreKen
11-25-2010, 22:35
I find this completely funny to have a suggestion without knowing the OP's body built. People start right into the debate of "full size" vs "commander" sizing and concealment and such without ever thinking the OP is either a 300 lbs 6'5" or 120 lbs 5'0" guy/girl. No offense to the OP by my examples.

This all really depends on your body type and built. And keep in mind that both "full size" and "commander" 1911's are built on the same "full size" frame. True commander is a 4.25" barrel. If carrying IWB then most of the slide/barrel is hidden, and won't show/print much. The frame/grip is what will generally print more than the slide, so keep that in mind. That's why some companies offer a "bobtail" to their full size frame. The bobtail reduce the printing of the main spring housing part of the grip. And the officer frame is a little shorter (in the grip height) for easiest concealment. But those generally have a 3.5" or 3" barrel.

So if you have a "larger" waist, then the above point might be mute and it doesn't matter. But if you have a slimmer waist, then it does matter for your frame selection.

6'0" and 250lb, so not a rail by any means :)

ArmoryDoc
11-25-2010, 23:17
I'm a Commander guy. The 5" is good for range and competition but I love the Commander for carry. The absolute best combination for carry bar none is the CCO setup. Officers length grip and Commander length slide. It's a carry dream.

Commander vs. 5" for carry ? COMMANDER all day. :wavey:

ArmoryDoc
11-25-2010, 23:20
Commander length 1911's are my fav.

http://www.kscch.com/Colt_Commander.jpg
http://www.kscch.com/KimberPro.jpg
http://www.kscch.com/DW1.jpg

JoshK
11-25-2010, 23:30
nice CCO Sarge!

as for the OP, I went with a 5" Gov for my first....

ArmoryDoc
11-25-2010, 23:33
Thanks Josh. ;)

mrsurfboard
11-26-2010, 00:36
I find this completely funny to have a suggestion without knowing the OP's body built. People start right into the debate of "full size" vs "commander" sizing and concealment and such without ever thinking the OP is either a 300 lbs 6'5" or 120 lbs 5'0" guy/girl. No offense to the OP by my examples.

This all really depends on your body type and built. And keep in mind that both "full size" and "commander" 1911's are built on the same "full size" frame. True commander is a 4.25" barrel. If carrying IWB then most of the slide/barrel is hidden, and won't show/print much. The frame/grip is what will generally print more than the slide, so keep that in mind. That's why some companies offer a "bobtail" to their full size frame. The bobtail reduce the printing of the main spring housing part of the grip. And the officer frame is a little shorter (in the grip height) for easiest concealment. But those generally have a 3.5" or 3" barrel.

So if you have a "larger" waist, then the above point might be mute and it doesn't matter. But if you have a slimmer waist, then it does matter for your frame selection.

Kimber makes a 4in "Pro" model with a compact grip similar to the ones on the "ultra" models.

bac1023
11-26-2010, 05:59
Kimber makes a 4in "Pro" model with a compact grip similar to the ones on the "ultra" models.

That's called the Compact.

rvrctyrngr
11-26-2010, 07:25
I, also, prefer commander-length 1911s.

After almost 30 years of shooting/carrying 4-4.5 inch guns, the 5" 1911s just felt strange to shoot for me. Sights seemed to be a mile away. Even in the military, just didn't seem right.

Tried for quite a while to adjust, but the commanders point more naturally for me, and I just shoot them a helluva lot better. With my TRP and Loaded now sold, all I have is commander-sized.

Doubt I'll ever own a 5" for carry or competition again. Maybe a 'special' one just to have and shoot occasionally.

Stashing cash now for an EB LW Kobra Carry. :supergrin: Have a friend who's an EB Master Dealer...best prices I've found.

Kegs
11-26-2010, 07:41
All of them are nice, but the commanders are the nicest of nice.

I'm combat commander (or any 1911 design with a 4"-4 1/2" bbl.) and would actually prefer a 2011 (or "wide body/double stack") frame myself.

Too bad Colt didn't make a delta CCO.

oldsoldier
11-26-2010, 07:48
Good luck with your choice and hope it works out for you. If it doesn't the good news is that you can always buy the other size 1911 and start a collection. I prefer 5" guns but recently bought one with an officer's frame and commander slide. It's definately growing on me. It seems to be a nice combination for CCW.

R*E
11-26-2010, 08:32
I have a full size 1911 and a Commander in aluminum frame. The recoil in the Commander is noticeably more than the 1911. I carry the Commander and alternate with a G19. The G19 is much lighter, but thicker. I prefer the profile of the Commander for carry but wish it was as light as the G19.

PlayboyPenguin
11-26-2010, 08:46
As you can see, a popularity vote will not do much to solve this debate. It will all come down to what you find feels better in your own hand. :)

RightYouAreKen
11-26-2010, 09:10
As you can see, a popularity vote will not do much to solve this debate. It will all come down to what you find feels better in your own hand. :)

Apparently! :supergrin:

And honestly that works for me. It seems like enough people have a preference for each one that it's really up to the person. I wanted to poll the group since I am new enough to 1911s that I don't consider my own take on each that reliable after a range session or two. I want to be sure whatever I get will not reveal some major hidden flaws in it's capabilities a few months down the road. Sounds like that won't be the case either way, provided I stick with quality brands.

Thanks all!

PlayboyPenguin
11-26-2010, 09:20
Apparently! :supergrin:

And honestly that works for me. It seems like enough people have a preference for each one that it's really up to the person. I wanted to poll the group since I am new enough to 1911s that I don't consider my own take on each that reliable after a range session or two. I want to be sure whatever I get will not reveal some major hidden flaws in it's capabilities a few months down the road. Sounds like that won't be the case either way, provided I stick with quality brands.

Thanks all!
You will not find many people that do not trust a commander sized 1911. You will find a few that have their concerns with ones in the officer's size category. I happen to disagree with the basis for those concerns but they do exist.

MD357
11-26-2010, 10:36
Apparently! :supergrin:

And honestly that works for me. It seems like enough people have a preference for each one that it's really up to the person. I wanted to poll the group since I am new enough to 1911s that I don't consider my own take on each that reliable after a range session or two. I want to be sure whatever I get will not reveal some major hidden flaws in it's capabilities a few months down the road. Sounds like that won't be the case either way, provided I stick with quality brands.

Thanks all!

A properly set up "commander" sized 1911 should be just as reliable as full size. Just make sure that whomever you buy from uses a commander frame and not a govt frame to build on. Some shops do this to cut costs and it leads to reliability issues.

You will find a few that have their concerns with ones in the officer's size category. I happen to disagree with the basis for those concerns but they do exist.

You can disagree all you like but you'd be disagreeing with fact. Generally, once you get to a "officer" sized 1911, the physics involved compromise the room for error. But that's another thread.

Boats
11-26-2010, 10:40
One nice thing about the Commander sized 1911s is that none of them that I have seen are saddled with those retarded looking forward slide serrations.

bac1023
11-26-2010, 10:45
One nice thing about the Commander sized 1911s is that none of them that I have seen are saddled with those retarded looking forward slide serrations.


Well, you've just seen your first. :whistling:


http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/cutillo_2009/000_3690.jpg

PlayboyPenguin
11-26-2010, 10:46
You can disagree all you like but you'd be disagreeing with fact. Generally, once you get to a "officer" sized 1911, the physics involved compromise the room for error. But that's another thread.
I will have to disagree with you. Most of these "facts" people like to talk about are just anecdotes and outdated statements from 20-30 years ago from custom builders. If people followed these outdated concepts today we would not have half of the small guns we now have.

bac1023
11-26-2010, 10:56
I will have to disagree with you. Most of these "facts" people like to talk about are just anecdotes and outdated statements from 20-30 years ago from custom builders. If people followed these outdated concepts today we would not have half of the small guns we now have.

Though greatly improved, the small 1911s are still inherently less reliable than a government model even today.

Hokie1911
11-26-2010, 10:57
:popcorn:

MD357
11-26-2010, 10:59
I will have to disagree with you. Most of these "facts" people like to talk about are just anecdotes and outdated statements from 20-30 years ago from custom builders. If people followed these outdated concepts today we would not have half of the small guns we now have.

Like I said, you obviously just don't understand the physics involved. Whether you like it or not, the window for timing variables is tighter. Just because a company like Kimber puts out their "ultra" flavor of the week doesn't mean they're all within spec. Some make it, some don't. Don't take it as a knock on 3" guns, take it as they need more attention to detail in terms of their timing, something which is lacking in many companies.

There's a reason Springfield designed the EMP from the ground up.

PlayboyPenguin
11-26-2010, 11:00
Though greatly improved, the small 1911s are still inherently less reliable than a government model even today.

Like I said, we will have to disagree. I see no evidence that they are substantially less reliable than any other 1911 today. I have owned several with no issues and I know many people in the same boat. I also know a couple people who would be considered pretty well learned of small guns petty well who share my opinions.

MD357
11-26-2010, 11:16
Like I said, we will have to disagree. I see no evidence that they are substantially less reliable than any other 1911 today. I have owned several with no issues and I know many people in the same boat. I also know a couple people who would be considered pretty well learned of small guns petty well who share my opinions.

The plural of anecdote doesn't equal fact. The facts are that within a smaller "officer" sized 1911 the slide velocity is higher, travels less, and obviously the spring is much stronger, the feed ramp angle more dramatic, etc. This has a higher potential to create variables within the magazines aswell. Parts have to be fitted more precisely than a Govt, as once again there is more room for error.

Quack
11-26-2010, 11:48
can't think of a semi-custom builder that has a 3" 1911.

PlayboyPenguin
11-26-2010, 11:51
The plural of anecdote doesn't equal fact. The facts are that within a smaller "officer" sized 1911 the slide velocity is higher, travels less, and obviously the spring is much stronger, the feed ramp angle more dramatic, etc. This has a higher potential to create variables within the magazines aswell. Parts have to be fitted more precisely than a Govt, as once again there is more room for error.
All of these things can, and have, been overcome by modern manufacturing. I will stand by my opinion that I have not seen a higher failure rate in smaller 1911's. I just have not seen a reality to back up the possibilities you mention.

I have personally spoken with multiple manufacturers and reps regarding repair rates on their 3-3.5" 1911 and have not had a single one report a higher rate on them.

Carrots
11-26-2010, 11:58
This thread isn't about 3" 1911s.

For me, I'll take a Full size everytime.

bac1023
11-26-2010, 12:01
can't think of a semi-custom builder that has a 3" 1911.

Me neither, to be honest. :dunno:

PlayboyPenguin
11-26-2010, 12:08
Me neither, to be honest. :dunno:

That has a great deal more to do with cost effectiveness than it does reliability. It would be very costly to produce an officer sized 1911 since it would require all new tooling than a 4" or 5" 1911. That is just the reality of custom building. Don't go confusing cost issues with reliability. In fact I have found that a whole lot of people base their distrust of small 1911 not on experience but on casual statements of custom makers who do not want to admit they can't make one and still profit so they deny the fact that larger manufacturers have done just that. Like I said, I have not found a single manufacturer that reports higher failure rates on their micros than they do on the commander sized models. Have you found different?

Quack
11-26-2010, 12:17
Ed Brown has specifically stated that he won't build an Officer sized gun because of reliability.

maybe the manufacturer's that you've talked to just have a high failure rate in general :animlol:

as to talking to a rep, he's there to sell things, so can you really trust a sales rep? :rofl:

yes, i own an officer sized 1911.

PlayboyPenguin
11-26-2010, 12:21
Ed Brown has specifically stated that he won't build an Officer sized gun because of reliability.

maybe the manufacturer's that you've talked to just have a high failure rate in general :animlol:

as to talking to a rep, he's there to sell things, so can you really trust a sales rep? :rofl:

yes, i own an officer sized 1911.
Custom builders have to protect their business image so I would not put too much weight on their theories when the reality seems to be different.

Like I have said, I have had no issues, no one I know personally has had issues, and every gun manufacturer I have spoken to reports no significant issues. I tend to give that more weight than I do some custom builder trying to explain why he does not offer a certain product. Especially if admitting the truth would mean losing business.

As for trusting a sales rep, I trust most of my friends. I also trust gun makers that have good reputations and I know personally.

Quack
11-26-2010, 12:24
what's the hardest part to conceal on a 1911? the grip.
manufacturers are offering CCO and bobtail guns that reduce the grip.
the added length of the barrel will offer more velocity.

PlayboyPenguin
11-26-2010, 12:28
what's the hardest part to conceal on a 1911? the grip.
manufacturers are offering CCO and bobtail guns that reduce the grip.
the added length of the barrel will offer more velocity.
No argument there. I agree completely. That is why I thought Detonics was ahead of their time. They offered commander sized 1911 slides with grips even shorter than an officer's sized model. Something like that is a way to feel secure if you want the ease of carry of an officer's sized 1911 but want t avoid even the remotest chance of a reliability issue.

SDGlock23
11-26-2010, 12:33
I like the Commander size the best, it really does feel better. The 5" isn't bad, but the 4.25" is just right!

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1982/mydanwessoncbob52710.jpg

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9286/mydwcco1101710.jpg

glock2740
11-26-2010, 12:38
I love Commanders. :cool:


http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac341/OU1911/HC3.jpg



http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac341/OU1911/NewColtandVaquero005.jpg

MD357
11-26-2010, 14:11
All of these things can, and have, been overcome by modern manufacturing.
.

Don't really have a response that involves critical thinking of what I said do ya?

I will stand by my opinion that I have not seen a higher failure rate in smaller 1911's. I just have not seen a reality to back up the possibilities you mention.


Doesn't really matter now does it? Just because you say you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm not interested in opinions, I'm talking about facts. Anyone can take a Gvt model and a respective "officer" sized model and measure what I've said.

I have personally spoken with multiple manufacturers and reps regarding repair rates on their 3-3.5" 1911 and have not had a single one report a higher rate on them. I also know a couple people who would be considered pretty well learned of small guns petty well who share my opinions.

Oh well that's definately concrete right there.


That has a great deal more to do with cost effectiveness than it does reliability. It would be very costly to produce an officer sized 1911 since it would require all new tooling than a 4" or 5" 1911. That is just the reality of custom building. Don't go confusing cost issues with reliability. In fact I have found that a whole lot of people base their distrust of small 1911 not on experience but on casual statements of custom makers who do not want to admit they can't make one and still profit so they deny the fact that larger manufacturers have done just that.

Man it's getting hella thick in here. Can you name this significant difference in tooling respective to commander and full size guns? Ambiguous answer to follow I'm sure, but I'm just curious if there's any substance to your theory. :supergrin:

PlayboyPenguin
11-26-2010, 14:29
Don't really have a response that involves critical thinking of what I said do ya? And just how is accepting real world data over hypothesis not critical thinking? Critical thinking requires reevaluating hypothesis when real results do not support them. Not vice versa.

Doesn't really matter now does it? Just because you say you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm not interested in opinions, I'm talking about facts. Anyone can take a Gvt model and a respective "officer" sized model and measure what I've said.
And just because you say it does is no different. I have shown that I have not seen it happen and that my experience is that most manufacturers have not seen it happen. Where is your evidence to the contrary.

Man it's getting hella thick in here. Can you name this significant difference in tooling respective to commander and full size guns? Ambiguous answer to follow I'm sure, but I'm just curious if there's any substance to your theory. :supergrin:
Here you are completely out of your element. You might want to speak to an actual manufacturer about the differences between producing a 4-5" 1911 and producing a 3" one. I asked the same question of a very reputable builder once (when asking if he could possibly produce a custom 3" 1911) and his list of differences was lengthy. Basically it came down to the fact that the gun would be the most expensive gun he ever of being made to just make one of them. His main reason was all the different tooling he would need to buy.

MD357
11-26-2010, 14:39
And just how more critical is accepting real world data over hypothesis not critical thinking?



Because you've yet to relay real world data. Again the plural of anecdote is not fact. Whereas anyone that understands smaller 1911s can understand and verify through measurement what I've said.

And just because you say it does is no different. I have shown that I have not seen it happen and that my experience is that most manufacturers have not seen it happen. Where is your evidence to the contrary.


You've yet to show anything other than you claim to have conducted formal surveys on micro 1911s. Not really believing that. Again, if you disagree that the physics are different in a "officer" sized 1911 relative to a Govt then I can't help you. I'm not going to travel to where you are with a set of calipers.


You might want to speak to an actual manufacturer about the differences between producing a 4-5" 1911 and producing a 3" one. I asked the same question of a very reputable builder once and his list of differences was lengthy.

Like I said, ambiguous answer to follow. Now since you refuse to offer any substance I'm going to ask how in the world do you believe Wilson, Baer, Brown etc are hindered? I know that Wilson and Brown have the tooling to do virtually anything 1911 related they please, yet how many Officer models do we see? Rather I have a tough time believing it's outside of their scope. If so, I'm still waiting on a logistics report from you.

PlayboyPenguin
11-26-2010, 15:12
Because you've yet to relay real world data. Again the plural of anecdote is not fact. Whereas anyone that understands smaller 1911s can understand and verify through measurement what I've said.
I relayed real world experience. Let's here how yours has varied. Or are you speaking from a completely uneducated position?

You've yet to show anything other than you claim to have conducted formal surveys on micro 1911s. Not really believing that. Again, if you disagree that the physics are different in a "officer" sized 1911 relative to a Govt then I can't help you. I'm not going to travel to where you are with a set of calipers.
Could you actually express the physics equation that would represent the likelihood of failure in a 3" 1911 pistol? I would love to see your math. Just saying it is so is not mathematical evidence. Math is about solving problems, not creating impossibilities.




Like I said, ambiguous answer to follow. Now since you refuse to offer any substance I'm going to ask how in the world do you believe Wilson, Baer, Brown etc are hindered? I know that Wilson and Brown have the tooling to do virtually anything 1911 related they please, yet how many Officer models do we see? Rather I have a tough time believing it's outside of their scope. If so, I'm still waiting on a logistics report from you.
Nothing ambiguous about it. I simply represented my experiences. Maybe you would like to represent a different experience.

It does not seem so far like you have any real experience to put forth.

bac1023
11-26-2010, 15:14
:popcorn:

tango44
11-26-2010, 16:16
COMMANDER SIZE IS MY PERSONAL FAVORITE!
Just don't like light weight frames!
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4124/5065542708_7ac8c8780d.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2730/4291147241_72885b3186.jpg

PlayboyPenguin
11-26-2010, 16:19
COMMANDER SIZE IS MY PERSONAL FAVORITE!
Just don't like light weight frames!
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4124/5065542708_7ac8c8780d.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2730/4291147241_72885b3186.jpg
Same here...all steel for me.

BFN
11-26-2010, 18:44
I like 6", or at least 5" minimum

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab156/nysoto/springerL.jpghttp://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab156/nysoto/baer2r.jpg

Boxerglocker
11-26-2010, 18:57
:popcorn:

:popcorn: slide over on the couch Hookie, I brought us a 6 pack...

If I only one... I would prefer a 4-4.25 inch.

tnhawk
11-26-2010, 19:12
Most of my 1911s are 5", however I like my Kimber Ultra CDP II and Colt Commander. All of the 1911s I've owned have been accurate and dependable.
If possible, fire or handle the models you are considering. You should be warned that the 1911 is very addictive. You buy one, then find another that you must have.

AZ Husker
11-26-2010, 19:14
You never see any shorties coming out of the true custom shops either...

Quack
11-26-2010, 20:39
I like 6", or at least 5" minimum

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab156/nysoto/springerL.jpghttp://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab156/nysoto/baer2r.jpg

http://photosbydon.smugmug.com/photos/1004738887_aDqi3-L.jpg

GVFlyer
11-26-2010, 20:46
Because of personally experienced reliability issues with short barreled 1911s, I no longer own nor buy 1911s with barrels shorter than 4.25 inches.

carguy2244
11-26-2010, 21:05
I will have to disagree with you. Most of these "facts" people like to talk about are just anecdotes and outdated statements from 20-30 years ago from custom builders. If people followed these outdated concepts today we would not have half of the small guns we now have.

In the past 6 months, I've spoken to 7 different builders of custom/semi custom 1911s.
They all volunteered that the more a 1911 deviates from Government size, the greater the challenge is for reliabilty and accuracy.
I should probably call them and tell them you disagree.

Quack
11-26-2010, 21:08
carguy, i already know PP's response...

Custom builders have to protect their business image so I would not put too much weight on their theories when the reality seems to be different.

Like I have said, I have had no issues, no one I know personally has had issues, and every gun manufacturer I have spoken to reports no significant issues. I tend to give that more weight than I do some custom builder trying to explain why he does not offer a certain product. Especially if admitting the truth would mean losing business.

As for trusting a sales rep, I trust most of my friends. I also trust gun makers that have good reputations and I know personally.

Hokie1911
11-26-2010, 21:15
I like 6", or at least 5" minimum


That's what she said... :whistling:

PlayboyPenguin
11-26-2010, 21:18
In the past 6 months, I've spoken to 7 different builders of custom/semi custom 1911s.
They all volunteered that the more a 1911 deviates from Government size, the greater the challenge is for reliabilty and accuracy.
I should probably call them and tell them you disagree.

It is more difficult. It is also more difficult to build a Rohrbaugh than it is to build a Glock. That does not mean Rohrbaughs are not reliable.

Custom builders who are honest will admit that they cannot afford to produce an affordable and reliable micro 1911 with their low sales numbers (compare what Ed Brown sells a year to what Kimber sells). Ones that are a little less honest will go on to bash anyone that can simply to make a sale.

bac1023
11-26-2010, 22:28
You never see any shorties coming out of the true custom shops either...
Not too often.

bac1023
11-26-2010, 22:28
:popcorn: slide over on the couch Hookie, I brought us a 6 pack...



:rofl:

MD357
11-26-2010, 23:14
I relayed real world experience. Let's here how yours has varied. Or are you speaking from a completely uneducated position?


I relayed something that anyone with an "Officer" sized 1911 and Govt sized 1911 can verify. If you don't own them then great, I understand your ignorance of the difference. All of this opposed to internet stories of talking to everyone in the industry.

Could you actually express the physics equation that would represent the likelihood of failure in a 3" 1911 pistol? I would love to see your math. Just saying it is so is not mathematical evidence. Math is about solving problems, not creating impossibilities.



I already have, if you are unable to understand what I have said and how it relates to the possibility of timing variables then you are more of a novice to 1911s than previously thought.

Nothing ambiguous about it. I simply represented my experiences. Maybe you would like to represent a different experience.

It does not seem so far like you have any real experience to put forth.

Because I'm not interested in anecdotes, mine or yours. I guess my comments earlier the futility of anecdotes as proof just went straight over the head? I can sit here and make up all sorts of stories that nobody could verify too but I choose not to.

Like I said, just give me a few pointers off this magical list. Considering the machinery Wilson and Brown have in-house, it looks like you stuck your foot in your mouth.

bac1023
11-27-2010, 04:58
I should probably call them and tell them you disagree.

:rofl:


:thumbsup:

fotog54
11-27-2010, 10:29
I like 6", or at least 5" minimum



.... That's what she said!

sorry could not pass that up!

Get a Commander sized. I have owned full size, Officer's size and love the Commander size the best.

The hardest thing to conceal when carrying a .45 is your grin!

Hokie1911
11-27-2010, 11:39
That's what she said... :whistling:

I like 6", or at least 5" minimum



.... That's what she said!

sorry could not pass that up!

Get a Commander sized. I have owned full size, Officer's size and love the Commander size the best.

The hardest thing to conceal when carrying a .45 is your grin!

:rofl:

glock2740
11-27-2010, 11:44
You never see any shorties coming out of the true custom shops either...
Here's a couple that just rolled out of Guncrafter. :cool:


http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac341/OU1911/DRC_Hard_Chrome_NN_COM_0281.jpg

brzusa.1911
11-27-2010, 12:23
I have both, commander much better to carry. This is my 5th 1911 commander, sold the first 4 and besides the first two (both Colts) that would not run without jamming, they all ran (still run) 100% out of the box. I recently bought a compact 1911 EMP 9mm. This will be my EDDC (every day day carry) as I find it will be easier to maneuver on and off my belt as going to and from work...at night the 1911 commander is my carry!

My commander and government are both LB. When I buy another .45acp it will either be another LB or a SA.

AZ Husker
11-27-2010, 18:31
Here's a couple that just rolled out of Guncrafter.

Sorry, wasn't specific enough. Those are true Commander sized. I meant the 3-3.5" guns.

knedrgr
11-27-2010, 21:38
:popcorn: slide over on the couch Hookie, I brought us a 6 pack...

If I only one... I would prefer a 4-4.25 inch.

:aodnsb:

maslin
11-28-2010, 15:40
I love the balance of my CCO-ish sized Springfield Compact. 4" bull barrel with an aluminum officer size frame.

RightYouAreKen
11-28-2010, 17:52
Thanks for everyone's feedback on this question! Your thoughts and opinions have been very helpful!

RightYouAreKen
12-06-2010, 17:30
Just wanted to post an update and share my purchase decision. I ended up torn between the Springfield Loaded fullsize, and the Springfield Range Officer. I decided on the Range Officer because it doesn't have front cocking serations or an ambidextrous thumb safety (I only need the left side). Bought it today and put 100 trouble free rounds down range, splitting time shooting my G19 as well. I am totally happy with the purchase so far, it really is a SWEET shooter.

Carpet photography inspired by bac :rofl:

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z420/RightYouAreKen1/IMG_3305.jpg

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z420/RightYouAreKen1/IMG_3308.jpg

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z420/RightYouAreKen1/IMG_3310.jpg

Hokie1911
12-06-2010, 17:33
Awwwwwww Ken, you were doing so good and then you had to spoil the last pic with the Glock. :rofl:

Congrats man. The RO seems to be a great gun. I think SA hit a home run.

RightYouAreKen
12-06-2010, 18:05
Awwwwwww Ken, you were doing so good and then you had to spoil the last pic with the Glock. :rofl:

Congrats man. The RO seems to be a great gun. I think SA hit a home run.

:rofl:

It's there to make the RO look even more sleek and refined than it does already. :supergrin: The Glock looks so chunky and bulbous in comparison! It is half the weight though, so still has a place in the safe...