I'm looking in to an inline muzzleloader [Archive] - Glock Talk

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ctaggart
11-29-2010, 00:56
The only problem is that I have expensive taste. I really fancy the T/C pro hunter but there is no way in hell that I am going to pay upwards of 800 dollars for one. I would like a 209 ignition and I will probably put a scope on it, so it needs to be drilled and tapped. Those are pretty much my only requirements as of yet. Magnum capacity would be a plus. My traditions buckskinner flintlock is ok but the quality could be better. Four hundred dollars is my price limit for the gun. I will add the scope later. Who can help me out with suggestions? If you include your load data of what you're shooting that's great too!

sourdough44
11-29-2010, 05:39
Lots of guys go buy some cheapie in-line made in Spain & are happy. That isn't my bag.

Here's an idea, go to gunbroker(or modernmuzzleloader.com) and spend $250 or so on a Knight Disc 'Extreme'(Elite fine too). You want one NIB or where the owner knew how to take care of it. Ask & look for signs of rust, & get a return period in the deal.

Once you get your gun, order a Generation II Lehigh breech plug for $39.50. The trigger is great & easily adjustable, set it at 2.5lbs. Mount a scope,get some Blackhorn 209 & CCI-mag 209 primers & quality sabots. I'd try Hornady 250 grn SSTs or T/C Shockwaves. The 300 grn ones are fine too. Try a charge in the 110-120 grain range.

There's your gun, now go hunt with as good as any in the woods. Take care of it too,even when shooting B209.

CC Glock
11-29-2010, 12:50
I shoot a Knight Wolverine. I havent ever killed a deer with it but my brother has taken two with it. The 209 primmers fit in a little plastic nipple which makes the whole gun water proof. Its easy to clean and very accurate. I think i paid around 170 for it after it went on sale.

I shoot Jim Shockeys Gold. Its expensive but its the best IMO. I shoot a 100gr's of it. I use 50cal horndy sabots( the ones that you put into the plastic skirting). I have mine sighted in 2 in's high at 50 yrds and dead on at a 100 yrds.

Im sure its not he best ML out there and by no means the most expensive but it severs its purpose very well. Several of my hunting buddies have the same set up. No complaints.

vafish
11-29-2010, 18:06
I picked up a stainless steel TC Thunderhawk on closeout a few years ago. IIRC it was under $150.

It only had the #11 cap nipple, but for $30 or so I ordered a 209 conversion kit from TC.

Guess what I am saying is keep your eyes out, do some research on available upgrades for the model you are looking at.

There are lots of used muzzle loaders out there, but you really need to check the barrel, if it is pitted with rust it is trash.

noway
11-29-2010, 21:18
I picked up a stainless steel TC Thunderhawk on closeout a few years ago. IIRC it was under $150.

It only had the #11 cap nipple, but for $30 or so I ordered a 209 conversion kit from TC.

Guess what I am saying is keep your eyes out, do some research on available upgrades for the model you are looking at.

There are lots of used muzzle loaders out there, but you really need to check the barrel, if it is pitted with rust it is trash.

Same here, I have a 50cal thunderhawk and nipples for #11 or musket caps. I also have Omega or should say I had one before it was stolen

Things to consider;

caliber size
#11 or 209 or musketcaps
sabot+bullet or one single bullet
mount of optical and how good are the bases, or do you stay open sights
nickel , regular steel or stainless ( BP subsitute are corrosive and BP is even worst )
Can unload it without firing the projectile
do you need special tools
Does it load good in the field
are the ramrod flimsy and bends or worst breaks



So many inline models exists, & if this is your 1st time, I would get a CVA for one or 2 seasons and try it B4 diving in very deep. If I had to recommend one pick, it would a TC or Knight product and one of the earlier models.

I would stay away from the winchester mzl-loaders and savage smokeless systems for the time being.

sourdough44
11-30-2010, 05:00
You really should get a gun that is somewhat optimized to shoot Blackhorn 209. That would mean a few particulars in the flash channel & of course 209 shotgun primers.

That is if you want the best available for hunting when you can't use your centerfire. I don't feel much less capable with my Knight compared to my 308 or other centerfire. I know that may not sit well with the 'traditionalists' but my goal is to extend the season or use it when centerfires are not allowed. I've used side-locks in the past and I tip my hat to the flint-lock & other traditional shooters.

noway
11-30-2010, 09:07
You really should get a gun that is somewhat optimized to shoot Blackhorn 209. That would mean a few particulars in the flash channel & of course 209 shotgun primers.

That is if you want the best available for hunting when you can't use your centerfire. I don't feel much less capable with my Knight compared to my 308 or other centerfire. I know that may not sit well with the 'traditionalists' but my goal is to extend the season or use it when centerfires are not allowed. I've used side-locks in the past and I tip my hat to the flint-lock & other traditional shooters.



He might be in the same ballpark as me, one of my favorite hunting grounds does not allow CF rifles.

Also we have a muzzle loader season that comes a month ahead of rifle ( general gun ) and it's been proven time over time, you best time to kill a PY buck is in the archey and followed by mzl'er seasons, when you get into general gun, the % is cut in half or more.

Just something to think and in my experiences, it's proven to be true. My biggest buck kills have been in Mzl'er and Archery Seasons.

ctaggart
12-01-2010, 19:18
These look like good suggestions so far guys. I appreciate it. To answer a few questions, I'd like to get an inline for the early season that runs a week long and falls in archery season. I already have a flintlock that I use for the late deer season(after Christmas) where only flintlocks and archery gear is allowed.

I think I'm leaning towards the Knight Disc Extreme and found one on gunbroker for $375.
I might have to snatch it up.

1canvas
12-01-2010, 19:44
i bought a tc omega a couple of years ago from cabellas on sale for 240.00 [black/black].
i put a 180.00 leupold rifleman scope and its been a great gun for a little over 400.00.

ctaggart
12-02-2010, 02:24
Update: I just bought two identical Knight Disc Extremes (Stainless/Laminate) with 209 ignition in the .50 caliber variety. They were on GunBroker being auctioned together. I really didn't want to buy two of them so I talked to a buddy who said he would split it with me. Total with shipping is $730, which I believe is a pretty good deal. They come with Leupold quick release scope bases as well.

I'm pretty stoked. Now all I need is the essentials, powder, primers, bullets, etc. From what I've read, the accuracy of these rifles is just amazing. I plan on using Blackhorn 209 powder after all the good things I've read about it. I mean, just look at Cabelas customer reviews...out of 76 reviews, 60 of them are 5 stars. I think the lower star reviews are from people not using an appropriate 209 primer.

Next step is the scope. I'm thinking about a Redfield. Leupold bought the name and they're made in the USA and offered at a decent price.

sourdough44
12-04-2010, 06:22
You got some fine muzzle-loaders there. You can shoot B209 with your current setup & the red plastic discs. To go one step better consider the Lehigh Gen II breech plug for $39.50 each. With them you use no plastic jacket to hold the primer,the bolt stays much cleaner & the flash channel is optimized for B209. The Lehigh website has the details.

You need a strong primer with B209, I use the CCI-Mag primer, others will work. The triggers are adjustable. Your gun may or may not have the 'Quick-release' for the bolt. It's a rather handy QR pin to remove the bolt, $5 part from Knight. I actually have this somewhat specialized tap to thread the hole for the QR pin. It's sorta an oddball size. Should you see what it is & if you want to use my tap we could work something out. The site modernmuzzleloader.com is a wealth of info.

You may get instructions with the gun. Look at how to take the bolt apart for proper cleaning. I imagine there are manuals for download if need be. I even copied a manual for a guy who never answered back about where I offered to sent it. I have a Leupold 1.75-6 on my gun. I took the iron sights off so I wouldn't have blurry interference at low power.

I just got back from an IL hunt with one of my Knights. My take was 4 anterless & a coyote. The Knight performed flawlessly.

Michigun
12-05-2010, 17:37
Too bad Knight has gone out of business...

sourdough44
12-06-2010, 14:10
Well the new Knight is open for business. They we resurrected with new owners & now offer parts & service. I ordered a small part several weeks ago. They are supposed to be offering newly manufactured muzzle-loaders in the next year or so. I can't say how they will do going forward. I'd expect any muzzle-loaders they make will go for higher prices than a guy can get an older Knight for now, gunbroker & other sources.

ctaggart
12-07-2010, 06:02
Ok, so I've been looking at scopes for the Knight and I like the idea of the Leupold UltimateSlam. It has a "Sabot Ballistic Reticle" that gives aiming points to 300 yards. This is based on a 250 grain pill and either a 100 grain charge or a 150 grain charge.

If anybody has experience with this scope, I'm all ears. I don't quite understand how this reticle works. It's "adjustable" for those two loads but appears to have only one dial. This dial being the magnification dial and load selection dial. Does this mean that I am stuck using one magnification setting on a 3-9 power scope?

Some sort of explanation would be stellar.

sourdough44
12-07-2010, 13:16
When it comes to scopes personal preference,style, & location of your hunting & shooting factor in heavily. I for one do not care for a busy reticle, usually anything more than the Burris 'ballistic plex' with 2 additional hashes. I know we read the articles but I also believe even with the most modern M-L shots are best kept under 150 yrds. I much prefer closer to 50-75. You get into the issue of accurate range determination at the longer ranges. I know range finders are common but opportunities develop where you have not determined the exact range.

The scopes with the aiming circles don't seem all that precise to me. The idea isn't to 'hit the deer'. but to put the bullet right in the vitals. Even when hunting more open cover you can put yourself in an area where your expected shots can be on the short side. That would be like the favorite corner of the field the deer 1st come out at, or in the woods near that corner.

noway
12-07-2010, 16:21
When it comes to scopes personal preference,style, & location of your hunting & shooting factor in heavily. I for one do not care for a busy reticle, usually anything more than the Burris 'ballistic plex' with 2 additional hashes. I know we read the articles but I also believe even with the most modern M-L shots are best kept under 150 yrds. I much prefer closer to 50-75. You get into the issue of accurate range determination at the longer ranges. I know range finders are common but opportunities develop where you have not determined the exact range.

The scopes with the aiming circles don't seem all that precise to me. The idea isn't to 'hit the deer'. but to put the bullet right in the vitals. Even when hunting more open cover you can put yourself in an area where your expected shots can be on the short side. That would be like the favorite corner of the field the deer 1st come out at, or in the woods near that corner.


The same problem with the Shotgun and long distance ( see thread below), also plays with the muzzleloader.

Yes their's a magazine out for muzzleloaders and the have guys with $3-5K plus in muzzleloaders, and then the same in optics, and bullet charts and pods, but the truth is most muzzleloader projecticles including PBR lead, is hard to compute drop, has bad ballistc and B.C characteristics or that of a brick.

So that makes a typical BP powder muzzleloader good for under 100-150yards in field condition or so. I would say probably less than 100yards is ideal.

If you really need to shoot past that on any regular basis and with accuracy, you should get a smokeless rifle such as a CF rifle or smokeless muzzlerloader like the savage or a swinglock loader and be done with it. I'm going that later route with the swinglock, since white's rifle took a turn for the worst :faint:

ctaggart
12-09-2010, 19:00
Finally got the gun in the mail. Overall condition is pretty good, although the fellow who sold it shipped it dirty and the other gun was loaded. :wow: I took the gun apart to the best of my ability and cleaned it up. It was sold with no user manual, so I really don't know how to take the bolt apart for cleaning.

I do plan on purchasing the Leheigh Gen II breach plug. I'd prefer not being bothered with buying the plastic discs. I've looked online and can't for the life of me find a user manual for this rifle. Is anybody able to give me a link?

I'll give a range report in regards to both the rifle and the scope when I get some time in after hunting season to shoot it.

sourdough44
12-10-2010, 12:03
Yes, taking the bolt apart is rather important for proper cleaning. Most require a "C" tool, or substitute from your tool box. You take the 'cocked' bolt, and screw the 'secondary' safety knob in to compress the bolt spring. While doing this the 'C'' tool is between the secondary safety knob & the rear of the bolt housing. The opening of the C allows the part of the bolt rear the room needed to move rearward while being compressed. Once compressed you easily unscrew the center part of the bolt from the bolt housing. Come on over & I'll give a demo.

I sent a PM about the manual. Like you mentioned I'd go right to the Lehigh plug. For right now just clean it up the best you can.


All this Knight talk got me all worked up. I just bought a new, unfired Knight Disc 'Elite' in stainless, today.

ctaggart
12-11-2010, 17:44
Ok, bear with me because I've never done a range report before but I'll attempt a quick one. I took the Knight Disc Extreme out to the range today. Temp was 44 degrees and the wind was negligible.

Here's a pic of the gun. (all pictures were taken with my phone, please excuse the quality)
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm95/Ctaggart/KnightDiscExtreme.jpg

I was using a Harris 6-9" bipod on the bench and a sand bag under the butt of the stock, so I had a pretty rock solid rest. I'm using CCI 209 primers, Blackhorn 209 powder and Hornady SST "low drag" 250 grain 45 caliber saboted bullets. The gun is a .50 caliber. Each shot was done with 120 grains of powder.

After a few shots I got sighted in close to the bulls eye at 100 yards. Here's the best group I could muster today. (I was pressed with time and running out of daylight) The bottom bullet hole was the first shot on that paper. I then adjusted elevation and the top three holes are the result.
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm95/Ctaggart/100yards120grB209250grHornadySTTcciprimer.jpg

I was satisfied with that group for today and wanted to try my hand at 300 yards. I mounted a Leupold UltimateSlam scope on the gun. I used quick release mounts and rings to ease in cleaning. It's definately worth it. So, here's what I did. I took a large piece of cardboard and stapled it up at 300 yards. I took a hi-vis sticker target and slapped it on the top of the cardboard. The objective is to aim your crosshairs at the target on the top of the cardboard. Then you walk down and take the average of your group and place another hi-vis sticker on that group. Go back to the bench and adjust the magnification on your scope so that the crosshairs are on the top target and the 300 yard mark is on the bottom target. All aiming points in between should be approximate.

Here is a picture of the reticle;
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm95/Ctaggart/leupold_ultimateslam_sabr_reticle.png

And here is a picture of the entire cardboard target I used. I have not yet placed my hi-vis sticker on top of my group because I wanted to show group size in the picture.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm95/Ctaggart/300yards120grainB209250grhornadySTTCciprimer.jpg

I had to run to work so I didn't have time to shoot at 300 yards using the 300 yard aiming point. I'll save that for another day. So, once you have adjusted your scope to match up with the two targets, you would mark it on the adjustment ring and tube.

Overall I'm happy with the gun and the scope. When I have more time I'll work up a more precise load and try the scope at different distances.



Edit to add: Tips for achieving better accuracy would be great!