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W420Hunter
12-02-2010, 23:37
Ok so not to long ago I talked my mom into getting a Mossberg 500 for home defense. I would now like to find her the best defense round. A friend of mine showed me these.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo.../12-gauge-slug
So what do the people of glocktalk think?

Angry Fist
12-02-2010, 23:40
Your link don't work for me... I'd say 00 Buck, any major brand 2 3/4" (capacity) or 3" or 3 1/2" (payload).

Lotsa novelty loads out there. I had fun with flechettes one time.... :whistling:

in_this_city
12-03-2010, 03:59
I have Winchester military 00 buck in my shotgun for home defense. Slugs are more for that distance shot. In HD a 9 pellet buck shot will be ideal.

crazyasian1
12-03-2010, 06:30
dead horse alert...

00 buck for me.

Jon_R
12-03-2010, 06:56
2 3/4" 00 Buck is what I recommend for typical home defense distances. In my house I have no shots longer then about 10 yards. If you can conceive needing to make distance shots then have access to slugs. I don't so I just keep one slug on the side saddle then the rest 00 Buck.

Then just whatever patterns best it your gun but at less then 10 yards they should all pattern pretty good. You want to make sure with aimed fire you can keep all the pellets on a man sized target.

I currently am working through a case of Win Ranger 00 Buck. I have heard good things about Federal Flight Control but any Buck from a major manufacturer should be fine. The bad guy won't be able to tell. :)

4wheel1
12-03-2010, 10:52
I have mine loaded with Federal Flite Control. Keeps a good pattern and is low recoil which might make it a little easier for her if she needs to get a 2nd or 3rd shot off.

MrMurphy
12-03-2010, 11:11
Low recoil, 12 gauge 00 buck, make her shoot some. Get a shorter length of pull stock as well, a Speedfeed IV-S would be recommended, non pistol grip version.

fiasconva
12-03-2010, 14:34
I recommend that you go up to the GATE section above and see what the resident expert, Mas, says about which load. He recommends no.1 buck and gives great reasons why. It's what I'd use after reading his comments.

ansehnlich1
12-03-2010, 15:06
00buck in my 870 and confident it'll get the job done.

Jon_R
12-03-2010, 16:43
I recommend that you go up to the GATE section above and see what the resident expert, Mas, says about which load. He recommends no.1 buck and gives great reasons why. It's what I'd use after reading his comments.

Good info. Once I work through the case of 00 maybe I will try some #1.

W420Hunter
12-03-2010, 17:07
Ok so this is a pic of the round I was talking about.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/images/Hexolit%2032.jpg
This is 12ga. DDupleks 2 3/4" 1 1/8oz Expanding Shotgun Ammo. The Hexolit 32 is a variation of the DUPO28 and is also a slug with an extremely enormous impact effect. When hitting the body, the frontal part of the slug instantly increases from 18.5 to 36-38 mm in diameter – this is the largest slug expansion diameter ever known. It creates an entrance hole with a 3.5 cm diameter, hits powerfully with all its expansion area and disintegrates into six symmetric splinters - essentially becoming six individual blades. The splinter cone causes an extensive area of damage. The unified effect of a hydrodynamic and pneumatic shockwave inside the body, along with splinter damage, ensures a unique instant stopping effect with the Hexolit 32 slug, which provides good results even with imperfect hits. This ammo comes packed in 5 round boxes/50boxes to a case.

crazyasian1
12-03-2010, 18:22
HOLY CRAP! Like to see the ballistic gelatin take that!

bsg1
12-03-2010, 19:21
Ok so this is a pic of the round I was talking about.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/images/Hexolit%2032.jpg


goodness....

method
12-03-2010, 19:52
Ok so this is a pic of the round I was talking about.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/images/Hexolit%2032.jpg

Overpriced gimmick. If you want/need a slug (and for HD, you probably don't), just stick with good old Fosters or Brennekes at less than half the price.

Angry Fist
12-03-2010, 20:01
Overpriced gimmick. If you want/need a slug (and for HD, you probably don't), just stick with good old Fosters or Brennekes at less than half the price.
Hell yeah! I'm a big fan of loading broken ashtrays in 3" :supergrin:

Boxerglocker
12-03-2010, 20:01
I train and practice with only 00 buck and slugs. I load mine for HD with 00 buck. My current living situation is an apartment though and lately have been reading alot about non lethal shot gun ammo alternatives for close quarter living such as my situation.

What are everyones thoughts about this?

W420Hunter
12-03-2010, 20:09
So does the 00 stack up better then what I posted?

W420Hunter
12-03-2010, 20:11
Overpriced gimmick. If you want/need a slug (and for HD, you probably don't), just stick with good old Fosters or Brennekes at less than half the price.

Are those safe for city use?

unit1069
12-03-2010, 20:23
I think #4 buckshot like Remington ($4.49 per 5-round pack) is as good as anything else, although I've read that the white coat lab types claim #1 buckshot is the optimum load for 12 gauge.

I'll buy some #1 if I ever find any but regardless, any criminal within 20 - 30 feet of the bad end of a 12 gauge with #4 will regret the experience.

method
12-03-2010, 21:11
Are those safe for city use?

I wouldn't use any slug in an urban setting, but that may be where the Hexolit slugs have a place, because they don't seem to penetrate as deeply as other types from what I've read and seen online.

Critias
12-03-2010, 21:23
Ok so this is a pic of the round I was talking about.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/images/Hexolit%2032.jpg
Those don't look cheap enough to train with.
So does the 00 stack up better then what I posted?
Every trigger-pull of a shotgun packing 2-3/4" 00 buck fires nine .33 caliber pellets. The long and short of it is that you're more than empty an old .38 wheelgun, effectively, into a bad guy with a single shot. That's plenty nasty. There's no need for overpriced gimmicky stuff, is there?

And the price is important, as it goes hand in hand with the "emptying into the bad guy" line. If all she owns are silly rounds that cost five bucks each or something, how likely is your mom to take the gun out and practice with it? If she gets around that by practicing with lighter loads but keeps the heavy stuff in there for an emergency, how likely is she to HIT what she's aiming at with slug recoil when she's used to shot? How likely is a fancy new ammo to work properly in her gun, if she's never tried it before? Would you trust your life to fancy ammo that you've never fired through your gun?

If you already had to "talk her into" the shotgun, how probably is it she'll shoot often enough, and take it seriously enough, to be super proficient with it? Why not keep her with buckshot, which is -- at least marginally -- easier to score a hit with, but more importantly is cheap enough to practice with often? Especially if you find her some low recoil rounds. The most expensive, super advanced, ammo in the world doesn't help if you miss with it, right?

There's nothing wrong with buckshot. It's what most people use -- and that includes police departments, militaries, etc, etc -- and it's been around long enough it's got to be doing something right. It's cheap and easy to get ahold of, it's inexpensive enough to practice with, and it's firing nine pellets, any one of which is almost the equivalent of a 9mm round. That's gonna do the job, if you put it on target.
Are those safe for city use?
Why are you so hung up on slugs for your mother's shotgun? I don't mean it to be an aggressive or sarcastic question, just genuinely curious -- what is it about her home defense requirements that makes you think she needs the extra recoil, penetration (of walls, etc), and expense required by what is, effectively, a .729 caliber slug?

mlyon55
12-03-2010, 21:28
I did go into GATE and ask Mas this question. In his opinion it was the #4 Buckshot for HD ranges.

Glocker08
12-03-2010, 22:25
I like #4 buck also. 27 pellets vs. 9 for most 00 buck. I do have some 12 pellet S&B 00 buck too though.

David_Ely
12-03-2010, 22:47
I use 18 pellet #2 buck in my 20 gauge.

Ferdinandd
12-04-2010, 00:04
I've always been a fan of 9x00 bk, but after looking at the ballistic performance and load properties, might switch to 12 or 15x1. It stacks pefectly in a shotcup which reduces deformation, especially with buffer. Once I buy and load some I hope to report my findings.

167
12-04-2010, 01:12
I run with low recoil Fed 9 pellet 00 Buck with flite-control wad. It holds a practical size pattern out to 30 yards or so.

You might also want to invest in some training. Shotguns are not easy to run well, especially under stress.

dnuggett
12-04-2010, 06:52
I did go into GATE and ask Mas this question. In his opinion it was the #4 Buckshot for HD ranges.

In his latest thread on this topic he said #1 buck.

powder86
12-04-2010, 08:07
I think #4 buckshot like Remington ($4.49 per 5-round pack) is as good as anything else, although I've read that the white coat lab types claim #1 buckshot is the optimum load for 12 gauge.

I'll buy some #1 if I ever find any but regardless, any criminal within 20 - 30 feet of the bad end of a 12 gauge with #4 will regret the experience.

i've heard this before. i've heard that #4 is great and over penetration isn't an issue, which is something that has to be considered!

i'd just recommend whatever your local le use. i went to a local shop and simply asked for what the local le used and i got it. a lot of local gun shop owners would know that stuff. i use federal low velocity le 000 buck, low velocity le slugs, and #4 buck as my back up rounds.

David_Ely
12-04-2010, 10:55
In all practicality, any buckshot will do the job. Just make sure you leave birdshot for the birds!

Frog1
12-04-2010, 14:16
Inside of an apartment? Inside a home? Have any of you seen what #6 birdshot does to a human at 10 feet? I have. Heavy loads are for yards, not feet. A 12 ga shotgun for a woman for home defense does not need any type of heavy loads. Let me assure you, birdshot will get the job done hands down.

If you have multiple intruders, then multiple shots would be required. She still might have her hearing and her shoulder after the first blast of #6. At typical home defense distance, bird shot is an ounce of lead the size of a 70 caliber round moving at 1000 feet per second. Save the other stuff for outdoors or the movies.

method
12-04-2010, 15:34
Inside of an apartment? Inside a home? Have any of you seen what #6 birdshot does to a human at 10 feet? I have. Heavy loads are for yards, not feet. A 12 ga shotgun for a woman for home defense does not need any type of heavy loads. Let me assure you, birdshot will get the job done hands down.

If you have multiple intruders, then multiple shots would be required. She still might have her hearing and her shoulder after the first blast of #6. At typical home defense distance, bird shot is an ounce of lead the size of a 70 caliber round moving at 1000 feet per second. Save the other stuff for outdoors or the movies.

No, an ounce of #6 birdshot is 225 .11" pellets. It never behaves like a single mass, no matter how close the shot.

There's plenty of documented cases where it did not get the job done.

Why get a shotgun and handicap it with small shot?

David_Ely
12-04-2010, 16:00
Just ask Dick Cheney's hunting partner about the lethality of bird shot. Save the birdshot for the birds.

ADK_40GLKr
12-04-2010, 17:54
Training vs SD: THIS works for me:
1. Fire enough SD rounds to make sure they work in your gun and you know the feel (If they're expensive - well, it's a good investment) Then

2. Practice with the cheapest ammo of the same weight slug and powder charge as your SD/HD loads. Why should the "Terminal Ballistics" have any effect on the "feel" of the load if the wt and powder are the same??

Won't a Hexolite "feel" the same coming out of your barrel as a cheaper slug with the same characteristics?

David Armstrong
12-05-2010, 10:41
For most folks in a home defense situation I recommend any of the low-recoil buckshot rounds. My personal is Remington 00, but that is based on patterning in my particular gun as much as anything.

David Armstrong
12-05-2010, 10:44
Inside of an apartment? Inside a home? Have any of you seen what #6 birdshot does to a human at 10 feet? I have.
Yes. It annoys them and very little of it gets through their heavy leather coat. You shoot birds with birdshot, not people.

dnuggett
12-05-2010, 12:53
You shoot birds with birdshot, not people.

Totally agree. I have 00 currently loaded, but after hearing Mas I am going to take a look at how #1 performs.

mlyon55
12-06-2010, 08:28
I saw and bought the Remington 2x4 Home Defense stuff the other day. Want to see how it does before I replace the #4 Buckshot. My biggest concern is that I have a split floor plan, all 3 of my kids sleep on the other side of the house. In the event of an intruder I do not want to take the chance of overpenetration.

cyrsequipment
12-06-2010, 08:41
You guys crack me up.
I love the rantings of amateurs.

aimstr8
12-06-2010, 10:27
plain old federal 00 buck. 2 3/4

method
12-06-2010, 10:31
You guys crack me up.
I love the rantings of amateurs.

So give us lowly amateurs your 'professional' opinion.

spdycpu
12-06-2010, 10:37
I don't know if there is one "best" round, it depends on the environment, what they're wearing, distance, etc. For me, I just use the 12 gauge 3" Super-X 12 pellet copper jacked 1450 feet/second shells out of a 28" Mossberg pump. I ran the numbers and it is like 250 ft-lbs of energy per pellet (total of about ~3000 ft-lbs).

If you ask, "what about your neighbors?!". Well, I'd rather have the best chance at stopping the bad guy than play the "maybe this won't go through the wall but will stop them" game and risking my wife and kid's life. Besides, I'm not too fond of my neighbors anyway.

Also, what if the person is wearing body armor? That is why we have multiple guns/calibers to handle different types of threats. The wife gets the 12 gauge as primary and a .380 ACP + Buffalo Bore rounds as a backup. I have the SKS with 10 V-Max rounds as my primary and a Glock 32 .357 sig with 1425 ft/s 125gr Buffalo Bore HP's as a back up.

I *think* that should do it. :supergrin:

Aceman
12-06-2010, 19:01
Ok so not to long ago I talked my mom into getting a Mossberg 500 for home defense. I would now like to find her the best defense round. A friend of mine showed me these.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo.../12-gauge-slug
So what do the people of glocktalk think?

Ok - I'm going to tell you what i think. And you won't like it. But it will be some of the straightest shooting advice you may hear. If you don't like it - I apologize. Just ignore it and go on with the rest of the responders advice.:

#1 I think you effed up up by 'talking' mom into the Mossberg in the first place. You didn't say she asked for it, if she wanted it, or will shoot it. Doesn't matter if it's loaded with bean bags or a tac nuke - I think you wasted the $$$. Just what I "read" from your post. I could be wrong. Please tell us more.

#2 You have not told us if your mom is a shooter of pistols, rifles, shotguns or BB guns. You also have not told us if she lives over the river and through the woods or in apartment 3b. I think we should all be giving some caveats about location first. And is mom 250 lbs of East German muscle, or 98 lbs dripping wet, and a dainty old lady?

#3 [edited on second read] I think you have no business buying guns for mom if a friend recommended some goofy rotor blade slug and you even thought it might be sensible. The sociable thing is to ask for advice, see what consensus is on your particulars and then go and do whatever you want. But since you asked about the specific item: I think it is effing stupid, and you you shouldn't talk to this person about guns anymore. Is it safe for city use? It is a PROJECTILE designed to be fired from a GUN and it is DANGEROUS anywhere anytime. Treat as less than that and you are setting up for trouble. Even non lethal ammo can kill people. Hit someone in the trachea with a bean bag moving 100 feet per second and see what happens (hint - it will involve the morgue).

#4 OK - let's get past all of that. I think if you are pulling an SG on someone you had better intend to STOP them. That means buck shot. #4 through 00. At indoor distances, I feel comfortable with low recoil. It will do more than enough damage (MORE than enough should always be the goal here - and it will get Mom back on target faster. So - #4 through 00 low recoil. I like 00. Slugs are for killing deer at 100+ yards, cars at less than 50 yards, and refrigerators at any distance. Some would say they are good for a head shot in a hostage situation. I wouldn't.

#5 All of this is assuming Mom practices enough to shoot straight anyway. Did your friend mention she at least has to point the barrel? Does mom know this? Does mom also know almost any round that will reliably put a bad guy down WILL go through walls - and likely more than one? And slugs could easily go into the next house (distance and barriers etc. considered)?

Basically what I heard is you coerced some woman to get a gun and are thinking about some ridiculous razor blade ammo for it and are now asking what should be done. And a bunch of armchair internet QB's are giving you advice without knowing any of the things I asked about.

MY personal choice of SD/HD rounds: Winlite low-recoil 12g 2 3/4 00 buck. I am 6' 2" and 235+ lbs. I have shot all my life, live in a suburban house with a wife and three small children. I shoot weekly/monthly time allowing. I have drilled the family on how to respond in an emergency. I have drilled at "no - shot" situations in my home. My #1 strategy for HD is call the cops and wait it out until the po-po shows in a safe spot in my room. Having three small children, I may not be able to do that.

Also - It's a Mossberg 500 if that makes you feel any better. Get a light for it.

Aceman
12-06-2010, 19:03
You guys crack me up.
I love the rantings of amateurs.

A sensible person. Thank goodness. Where is aippi when you need him!


Critias- some very nice responses as well.

Aceman
12-07-2010, 07:09
I saw and bought the Remington 2x4 Home Defense stuff the other day. Want to see how it does before I replace the #4 Buckshot. My biggest concern is that I have a split floor plan, all 3 of my kids sleep on the other side of the house. In the event of an intruder I do not want to take the chance of overpenetration.

Here is a tip: Anything that can STOP reliably, will over-penetrate. Anything that misses the target will over-penetrate a lot.

Practice your intruder strategy; Know what shots you CAN'T take. Or know the consequences of a miss. My house is the same way.

Bottom line - guns are dangerous. Use them accordingly.

cpelliott
12-08-2010, 12:25
For inside the home range, any buckshot will do. 00, #1, #4 all meet the FBI 12 inch test.

A handgun is a more flexible option though. She may be reluctant to answer the front door with a shotgun in her hands, but a handgun can be kept hidden on your body, making it more likely that you will actually have it when you need it. I have a shotgun available for HD, but many situations would not give me time to get it, leaving me with my anemic Glock.

Eyescream
12-08-2010, 15:40
My wife and I both have 00 buck in our shotguns.

tx787
12-10-2010, 14:24
Gimmick ammo is a bad choice in any platform or caliber, but especially in a 12ga where the tried and true 00 buck is the answer to the question nobody should still be asking.

This is one of the old sayings that's actually right, 00 buck is all you need. There are plenty of different quality manufacturers and some recent improvements such as reduced recoil or flite control, but any quality 00 will do. Winchester Military, Remington, Federal, S&B, Estate, etc etc it's all good and it'll all do the job it needs to do.

Some people prefer #4 buck and #1 buck, I don't have a problem with that. I'd use either #4 or 00 and not overthink it. In fact, I don't use my 12ga for defense (it has a sporting length barrel) but I have a couple of boxes of both 00 and #4 for the inevitable zombie attack.

You don't need to order anything special, your down the street sporting goods store or walmart has you covered here.

David_Ely
12-11-2010, 09:02
More proof that birdshot is for birds:

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2010/12/mecosta_county_homeowner_fires.html

This intruder was hit 3 times with birdshot in a home and lived to complain that he was the victim . . .:upeyes:

PeteCamp
12-11-2010, 09:36
I train and practice with only 00 buck and slugs. I load mine for HD with 00 buck. My current living situation is an apartment though and lately have been reading alot about non lethal shot gun ammo alternatives for close quarter living such as my situation.

What are everyones thoughts about this?
Never a good idea. If you want to "save a felon" shoot him with a sling shot. Non lethal loads have a use in LE work, but not for personal defense. Train and practice until you can put the buckshot into the bad guy and he will stop your over penetration worries.

Also, forget the gimmick rounds. They are just that. Gimmicks designed to liberate money from the pocket of fools. Number 1 buck is excellent IF you can find any. I use Federal LE132 low recoil 00 buck.


Inside of an apartment? Inside a home? Have any of you seen what #6 birdshot does to a human at 10 feet? I have. Heavy loads are for yards, not feet. A 12 ga shotgun for a woman for home defense does not need any type of heavy loads. Let me assure you, birdshot will get the job done hands down.

If you have multiple intruders, then multiple shots would be required. She still might have her hearing and her shoulder after the first blast of #6. At typical home defense distance, bird shot is an ounce of lead the size of a 70 caliber round moving at 1000 feet per second. Save the other stuff for outdoors or the movies.
As a matter of fact, in my line of work I have seen quite a few people shot with birdshot. One guy had no face - no nose, eyes, and half a jaw bone hanging by threads of flesh. He was trying to talk to me. He survived easily. He tried to commit suicide with a 12 gauge aimed at his head. As others have intimated, you need to go study some physics. Birdshot pellets move as individual pellets - each with hardly enough energy to penetrate an inch of body mass. They are wonderful if your home is being assaulted by a huge swarm of birds though.

unit1069
12-11-2010, 13:41
Finally scored some #1 buckshot over at MidwayUSA in the Clearance section.

Ten round boxes of Sellier & Bellot 2 3/4" Number 1 buckshot for $4.49. Good price. I'll shoot one box to test it and keep the second if I think it's a better choice for self-defense than #4. I'll probably end up keeping 5 rounds no matter what.

leathermarshmallow
12-12-2010, 20:27
Unfortunately, I am of the "save the felon" camp. My first round out of my pump will be rubber buck. After that, it is serious. Number 4 and 00 mixture. Say what you want, but I really don't look forward to killing anyone else.

David_Ely
12-12-2010, 20:57
Unfortunately, I am of the "save the felon" camp. My first round out of my pump will be rubber buck. After that, it is serious. Number 4 and 00 mixture. Say what you want, but I really don't look forward to killing anyone else.

If you value the "felon's" life more than yours, that's fine.

WoodenPlank
12-12-2010, 22:04
If you value the "felon's" life more than yours, that's fine.

Not to mention that most riot control ammo is often lethal within 10 yards. Have fun explaining to the DA why you were loaded with rubber buckshot and the guy still died from blunt trauma. Even better, if the guy lives, you are open to some SERIOUS civil liability issues in most jurisdictions.

Also, am I the only one that mentally goes "Not this **** again" whenever a new thread pops up about this, or an old one gets bumped?

aippi
12-12-2010, 23:13
There is some dumb stuff said on these blogs. You guys jump on a man for showing good sence enough to use a very reliable round as his first for HD. The man is not saving a felon he is using good judgement and maybe saving an innocent life or his own. He may not be perfect like you guys and realizes he can make a mistake and this munition can ensure he can live with that mistake and so can the person he fired on. There was only one perfect man and they beat the hell out of him and nailed him up, I ain't him.

I have rubber 00 as my first round in my HD weapons and there is not a man on this blog that is more capable then me with a shotgun nor who can question my decision to use this. I have all the right reasons for this.

I don't post them but will gladly explain to anyone who calls me.

Be careful what you load in that weapon people 'cause it can be used on you and if you think you can't have that weapon taken from you then I would say "you sir are a damn fool".

SiNNiK
12-12-2010, 23:19
Hornady TAP 00.

SiNNiK
12-12-2010, 23:23
Also, am I the only one that mentally goes "Not this **** again" whenever a new thread pops up about this, or an old one gets bumped?

Of course not, there's a plethora of folks here who plaster their "NotThisCrapAgain.gif" all over threads like this and think they're clever for doing so.

It's a forum, not a database. Questions get asked everyday and there are only a finite number of questions one can ask about firearms so of course some will get asked multiple times.

If it gets on your nerves, why even respond? Why even read the thread? What's the point?

SiNNiK
12-12-2010, 23:30
There is some dumb stuff said on these blogs. You guys jump on man for showing good sence enough to use a very reliable round as his first for HD. The man is not saving a felon he is using good judgement and maybe saving an innocent life or his own. He may not be perfect like you guys and realizes he can make a mistake and this munition can ensure he can live with that mistake and so can the person he fired on. There was only one perfect man and they beat the hell out of him and nailed him up, I ain't him.

I have rubber 00 as my first and there is not a man on this blog that is more capable then me with a shotgun nor who can question my decision to use this. I have all the right reasons for this.

I don't post them but will gladly explain to anyone who calls me.

Be careful what you load in that weapon people 'cause it can be used on you and you think you can't have that weapon taken from you then you sir are a damn fool.

John Wayne may have gotten beat up a time or two, but he ain't never been nailed, nowhere, nohow.

aippi
12-12-2010, 23:35
Right on Sinnik - and there are new members all the time and they have a right to ask the most basic of questions and get a full range of responses. I have seen guys jump on them about using the search feature and try to make them feel silly for asking a basic question. Well, I say they have just as much right to ask it as a guy with thousand of post. Not sure who owns this site but I would bet it's not the guys rudeing people out for asking a question or post a ligitimate response.

And guess what guys. New stuff comes out all the time. Also, new members have expiriences different from ours and we can learn from their post, even when it is a topic covered over and over again. I learn from my clients all the time and I get smarter for it (that is debateable) and my custom weapons get better when I listen to them. So like Sinnik said. If you don't like a topic don't comment and don't even read it.

PS: The Duke got killed a couple times. In the "Cowboys" and in "Sands of Iwo Jima". Not sure if there are others, could be but I am not perfect and don't know. Also, he stood by with a spear in his hands while that guy died nailed up there. Remmeber that scene?

SiNNiK
12-12-2010, 23:45
PS: The Duke got killed a couple times. In the "Cowboys" and in "Sands of Iwo Jima". Not sure if there are others, could be but I am not perfect and don't know. Also, he stood by with a spear in his hands while that guy died nailed up there. Remmeber that scene?

Is that where he said "Wha-ha-ha pilgrim"?

I keed, I keed.

:)

WoodenPlank
12-13-2010, 22:54
There is some dumb stuff said on these blogs. You guys jump on a man for showing good sence enough to use a very reliable round as his first for HD. The man is not saving a felon he is using good judgement and maybe saving an innocent life or his own. He may not be perfect like you guys and realizes he can make a mistake and this munition can ensure he can live with that mistake and so can the person he fired on. There was only one perfect man and they beat the hell out of him and nailed him up, I ain't him.

I have rubber 00 as my first round in my HD weapons and there is not a man on this blog that is more capable then me with a shotgun nor who can question my decision to use this. I have all the right reasons for this.

I don't post them but will gladly explain to anyone who calls me.

Be careful what you load in that weapon people 'cause it can be used on you and if you think you can't have that weapon taken from you then I would say "you sir are a damn fool".

While I don't doubt your reasons, aippi, I just (personally) feel that loading LTL ammo is a questionable choice in today's society - mainly because of litigation potential. I live in a state that provides protection against civil and criminal liability following a legit SD/HD shoot, but many states do not. One of the tenets I have been taught time and again by people with MUCH more experience than I is that there should only be one story for the cops to hear - yours. Don't leave the bad guy standing to muddy the waters about if the shoot was legit. (Edit to add: That really sounds wrong, on re-read. However, I have even received that advice from long-time police detectives, so I guess I shouldnt feel like an ass for repeating it) While not wanting to take a life IS an admirable goal, it just seems that you are opening yourself to too many potential civil issues afterwards. That, combined with my earlier mention of LTL not ALWAYS being non-lethal just seems like a recipe for trouble. In the end, though, it does come down to what each individual person feels is right for them

Of course not, there's a plethora of folks here who plaster their "NotThisCrapAgain.gif" all over threads like this and think they're clever for doing so.

It's a forum, not a database. Questions get asked everyday and there are only a finite number of questions one can ask about firearms so of course some will get asked multiple times.

If it gets on your nerves, why even respond? Why even read the thread? What's the point?

It isn't the asking that makes me roll my eyes, but the inevitable mud-slinging, ****-talking, user-bashing garbage that the thread almost always degenerates into. I try to be respectful with my thoughts and comments (sometimes I end up giving in to my inner troll, though, albeit briefly), but many users do not seem to. I am all for valid discussion, but the trash-talk gets old very quickly.

leathermarshmallow
12-14-2010, 09:29
Unless you have taken a life in a situation like this, you will not know the affects of it on you and your family in addition to the family and friends of the deceased.

It sounds all macho to talk about how you would do this or do that, but unless you have lived it, you will not know.

I have been VERY well trained in the arts of war. I have seen and done things that I do not wish to re-live.

I am very well aware that LTL ammo could be lethal at close range. I also am aware that it could give the perp a chance to re-think or to react in a different manner. I am aware that I could be sued for "letting him live".

So what? I can be sued and lose what little I have. So what? I still will be able to sleep at night knowing that I did not take another life.

As a side note, I get amused and sometimes miffed by some of the "experts" on here. I recognize that there are many that are true experts in their fields. I also can recognize the 15 year old who wants to show how macho he is by writing some of the tripe that we see here.

To all of you with valuable knowledge, I thank you for your posts to help me learn more.

For those of you that are "armchair experts" good luck with your fantasies.

captcurly
12-14-2010, 09:47
Been at it a long time and for me it is OO Buck (9 pellet). Another alternative is #4 Buck.

David Armstrong
12-14-2010, 10:49
While I don't doubt your reasons, aippi, I just (personally) feel that loading LTL ammo is a questionable choice in today's society - mainly because of litigation potential.
If one uses the less-lethal rounds only in a deadly force situation the litigation potential is pretty much eliminated, IMO. Remember, the goal is to stop the threat. If one can stop the threat while at the same time reducing the chance of lethality that is not necessarily a bad thing.
One of the tenets I have been taught time and again by people with MUCH more experience than I is that there should only be one story for the cops to hear - yours. Don't leave the bad guy standing to muddy the waters about if the shoot was legit. (Edit to add: That really sounds wrong, on re-read. However, I have even received that advice from long-time police detectives, so I guess I shouldnt feel like an ass for repeating it)
The problem with that is that there will ALWAYS be another story. It might not be spoken by the BG, but the crime scene will tell a story all by itself. And if your shoot was legit, how does leaving the BG standing muddy the waters? Like Leather Marshmallow said, you really shoudn't look forward to killing people. Even when it is absolutely necessary it can be a real hassle.

WoodenPlank
12-14-2010, 15:38
If one uses the less-lethal rounds only in a deadly force situation the litigation potential is pretty much eliminated, IMO. Remember, the goal is to stop the threat. If one can stop the threat while at the same time reducing the chance of lethality that is not necessarily a bad thing.

The problem with that is that there will ALWAYS be another story. It might not be spoken by the BG, but the crime scene will tell a story all by itself. And if your shoot was legit, how does leaving the BG standing muddy the waters? Like Leather Marshmallow said, you really shoudn't look forward to killing people. Even when it is absolutely necessary it can be a real hassle.

To your first point, leaving the perp alive and with severe injuries after taking a hit from an LTL shotgun round at close range leaves you open to accusations of being "malicious" and wanting to inflict pain and injury on the person. Considering how many people have been sued over legit shoots with live, lethal ammo, I am sure some scumbag looking for a payday after his B&E goes awry could find a lawyer willing to bring a lawsuit. The same trap can happen when using something like birdshot in a SD situation(claims of wanting to inflict massive wounds and pain, purposefully disfiguring the BG, etc). Yes, a good lawyer or expert witness (ie: Mas) can explain the perfectly legit reasons for your use of LTL, birdshot, etc, but you have still opened the door to litigation much wider than if you had used buckshot.
Besides, I have to be alive to deal with the hassle, nightmares, etc after a legit shoot. I don't like the idea of risking that "alive" part by purposefully crippling my chosen method of SD.

As to your second point, I have never had to point a live weapon at a human being. I hope like hell I never do, much less pull the trigger. The closest I have ever come to it, the situation was ended by the mere presentation of a weapon by my father when I was a teenager. However, when a 20+ year detective in a VERY high crime rate city looks me in the eyes and says...
"If you ever have to shoot someone in your home in this town, first rule, MAKE SURE HE IS DEAD"
I have to take that advice seriously. Again, when we are talking a legit shoot (in the town I lived in at the time, break-ins were common, and the criminals were almost always armed, and rarely had a problem shooting or stabbing people), the physical evidence at the scene will back up that you were justified. However, having a living (albeit badly wounded) criminal screaming "That ******* shot me!" or "Im drunk, I thought it was my house!" or (even worse) limping off the street and calling 911 to try to make HIM look like the victim, I can certainly understand the idea behind it. Mas has said on numerous occasions, that in an SD shoot or other bad situation, make sure your story is the first one the cops hear. If you have the ONLY story for the cops to hear (I was in fear for my life, so I shot him), then it is still the first one as well.

Also, what happens when you shot that criminal in your home with LTL, and he returns fire? Are you willing to risk having wasted your first shot (the one that, statistically, usually ends a gunfight - the first one on target) with LTL, only to be shot with something decidedly more dangerous in return? Sure, you might have 00 in the tube after it, but will you even get that round off? Personally, if I ever have to deploy my shotgun to defend myself, my home, or my loved ones, my first round WILL count, since it will be a shell of LE 00 buck. I am not a fan of playing nice or taking chances when my life, and the lives of the ones I love, are on the line.

Edit to add: Another legal point... What will you say when the DA looks at you and goes "So, it wasnt a serious enough situation on your first shot to use deadly ammo, but two seconds later when you shot that man in the chest with lead shot it was? What changed in those two seconds? Oh, it WAS that dangerous on the first shot? Then why did you use the rubber shot? Did you just want to hurt that man before killing him?"
Personally, I would rather just have to answer to "Why did you shoot him in the chest with buckshot and kill him?"

"Sir, I was in fear for my life."

leathermarshmallow
12-14-2010, 16:06
There is so much conjecture as to what might happen...Of course there are lawyers that are ready to defend or take on any case. I have heard so many people say something to the effect of, "Well, 20 year sgt. XYZ told me to make sure that I kill the perp. so my story will be the only one." The average cop hasn't even dealt with the situation. They are going by hear-say also.

There are lots of cowboys and tough guys here that have so much experience with lethal situations.

David Armstrong
12-14-2010, 16:07
To your first point, leaving the perp alive and with severe injuries after taking a hit from an LTL shotgun round at close range leaves you open to accusations of being "malicious" and wanting to inflict pain and injury on the person.
As opposed to wanting to inflict pain and injury by shooting him with a bunch of lead balls?:dunno:
If the perp is alive and with severe injuries I doubt that the fact that you were trying to minimize the damage and NOT make the injuries more severe will present much of a problem.
Besides, I have to be alive to deal with the hassle, nightmares, etc after a legit shoot. I don't like the idea of risking that "alive" part by purposefully crippling my chosen method of SD.
I fail to see how using a less lethal for the first round reduces the chance of stayhing alive. If there is a problem you shoot him again with buckshot, just like you would if your first round was buck.
However, when a 20+ year detective in a VERY high crime rate city looks me in the eyes and says...
"If you ever have to shoot someone in your home in this town, first rule, MAKE SURE HE IS DEAD"
I have to take that advice seriously.
Having been a LEO for 20+ years I assure you, DO NOT take legal advice from LEOs. Go present that idea to someone who knows the law and I'm sure they will tell you that making sure someone is dead after they are no longer a threat is a quick way to go to prison.
Also, what happens when you shot that criminal in your home with LTL, and he returns fire?
The same thing that would happen if I shot that criminal with regular ammo and he returned fire.
Are you willing to risk having wasted your first shot (the one that, statistically, usually ends a gunfight - the first one on target) with LTL, only to be shot with something decidedly more dangerous in return?
What makes you think the first shot will be wasted and a standard round would not be? Are you willing to kill someone when you could have solved the situation in another way?
Sure, you might have 00 in the tube after it, but will you even get that round off?
Yes, I will. I fail to see how blasting some poor soul with rubber buck either improves his capabilities or reduces mine.
I am not a fan of playing nice or taking chances when my life, and the lives of the ones I love, are on the line.
Well, you are always taking chances, but that beside the point it doesn't change any of the legal issues. Again, it is not something that I would do, but I don't see that much downside to it assuming the less lethal is used in the correct circumstances.

WoodenPlank
12-14-2010, 16:23
David, at no point did I advocate shooting someone after they are no longer a threat.

As for not taking legal advice from LEOs, would you include someone like Mas in that field? Oh, heck, since you admit to being an LEO yourself, should I ignore everything YOU say as well? [/smartass]
I am not coming down on anyone that chooses to load LTL, I am simply giving MY personal reasons to believe it is not the greatest idea. If someone chooses to load LTL for a first shot, or the entire magazine, more power to them. "You make your choices, and you take your chances." I make my choice to load the ammo that gives me the best chances to stop the threat as quickly as possible. In my eyes, that is 00 buck - and not the rubber variety.
As I have said here, everyone has to make their choices and take their chances. Obviously, you have made yours, as I have made mine, and we both have our reasons for our choices.

method
12-14-2010, 16:57
I also am aware that it could give the perp a chance to re-think or to react in a different manner.



Flip side to that, though, is it could give the perp a chance to start or keep sending fire towards you, agreed?

So just how effective is rubber shot at putting someone decidedly out of a fight?

WoodenPlank
12-14-2010, 17:01
Flip side to that, though, is it could give the perp a chance to start or keep sending fire towards you, agreed?

So just how effective is rubber shot at putting someone decidedly out of a fight?

Hey, it can be your turn in the barrel...

dosei
12-14-2010, 18:15
I recommend that you go up to the GATE section above and see what the resident expert, Mas, says about which load. He recommends no.1 buck and gives great reasons why. It's what I'd use after reading his comments.

African guide/hunter Peter Hathaway Capstick was also a die-hard #1 Buck user. His SHTF gun for when the client would miss a shot on a big cat and it would charge them was a 12 gauge pump shotgun loaded with #1 buck.

WoodenPlank
12-14-2010, 18:18
African guide/hunter Peter Hathaway Capstick was also a die-hard #1 Buck user. His SHTF gun for when the client would miss a shot on a big cat and it would charge them was a 12 gauge pump shotgun loaded with #1 buck.

My SOLE complaint with #1 is it can be a little tricky to find at times. 00 and #4 are a LOT more widely available. If I could find a #1 load I liked that was fairly easy to get, I would be all over it.

Aceman
12-14-2010, 18:39
I have rubber 00 as my first round in my HD weapons and there is not a man on this blog that is more capable then me with a shotgun nor who can question my decision to use this. I have all the right reasons for this.


Well, I am somewhat, if not extremely, surprised. And I am not going to argue with one bit. Respect -

unit1069
12-14-2010, 21:27
Unfortunately, I am of the "save the felon" camp. My first round out of my pump will be rubber buck. After that, it is serious. Number 4 and 00 mixture. Say what you want, but I really don't look forward to killing anyone else.

From this post and the subsequent one we can safely assume you live alone and are prepared to give the felon a chance at the risk of your own life.

So that's fine as far as it goes. Now if you come back and tell us you're married with kids in the house, or anyone else living there for that matter it's the regular Glock Talk members who will spot the armchair commando you mentioned. Or the Brady Campaign instigator maybe.

Critias
12-14-2010, 22:59
I don't see what you guys are getting worked up over, enough you've got to sling insults and insinuations around.

If someone wants to carry X, let 'em carry X. It's their shotgun, it's their house, and it's their X. If someone else prefers to carry Y, good for them. My all means, let's discuss the options, but state your reasons for preferring X or Y in a civil enough fashion or you're certainly not going to be making a convert any time soon. Talk like you're just prowling around looking for excuses to sling mud at people, and no one benefits.

Boxerglocker
12-14-2010, 23:51
I have rubber 00 as my first round in my HD weapons and there is not a man on this blog that is more capable then me with a shotgun nor who can question my decision to use this. I have all the right reasons for this.


Well, I am somewhat, if not extremely, surprised. And I am not going to argue with one bit. Respect -

No offense to you Aceman but, It's funny, how I make mere mention of the thought of possibly using LTL rounds in this thread and in another... in the process get cut to shreds.
J.D. mentions the fact here and on his website that he actually does and the tone is quite mute. :upeyes:

dosei
12-15-2010, 06:39
My SOLE complaint with #1 is it can be a little tricky to find at times. 00 and #4 are a LOT more widely available. If I could find a #1 load I liked that was fairly easy to get, I would be all over it.

That is indeed the sole problem with #1 buck, you have to order it or load your own.

ADK_40GLKr
12-15-2010, 10:08
In my old 870 16 ga., for HD, I use#1 buck in a 2 3/4" shell. That load produces a 7" pattern of 11-12 30 caliber pellets at 25 feet with a muzzle velocity better than most medium caliber pistols.

ADK_40GLKr
12-15-2010, 11:34
OK, help me out here, if I don't want to un-necessarily maim a home invader, but want to use lethal defense where appropriate, how do I make that choice quickly?
-2 shotguns? (1 with rubber and 1 with lead - and then where do I keep them?)
- Leave 1 empty, choose my load when I need it and loose valuable self defense time?
- Lead in the chamber to eject if I want rubber?
- Vice versa?
- Seems to me the logistics of the choice are the difficult part - they ALL waste time.

My wife wants a TASER. That might be less lethal and more crippling than rubber.

tnstaafl
12-15-2010, 12:20
"if I don't want to un-necessarily maim a home invader" - you're kidding, right?? Choosing between different shotguns and deciding which load to use as a crack-head is coming into your house in the middle of the night to rob you and do who-knows-what-else to your family ???

I'm worried about making him harmless, immediately, to me and my family - he made the bad choice - I don;t wanna have to worry about making choices.

I'm also worried about over penetration, but only cause I don't wanna hurt my next door neighbors - their nice folks.

Not intending to poke fun at anyone, but like they say, seconds count.

#5xbr
12-15-2010, 20:52
Me murphy above has it correctly

Aceman
12-15-2010, 21:00
No offense to you Aceman but, It's funny, how I make mere mention of the thought of possibly using LTL rounds in this thread and in another... in the process get cut to shreds.
J.D. mentions the fact here and on his website that he actually does and the tone is quite mute. :upeyes:

Yep. Cause he is JD and probably any five of use put together are not.

F14Scott
12-15-2010, 21:02
You guys do realize that, at trigger pull, you have just initiated a fight to the death?

Regardless of your LTL intentions or the composition of your ammo, in your opponent's mind, he must now escape, kill you, or die.

ADK_40GLKr
12-15-2010, 21:36
Not intending to poke fun at anyone, but like they say, seconds count.

My point exactly TNSTAAFL. Seems to me giving yourself a choice between Lethal and LTL slows you down and impairs your chances of survival.

Answer: (e) None of the Above!

Boxerglocker
12-15-2010, 22:12
Yep. Cause he is JD and probably any five of use put together are not.

I agree, just an observation. Like I said, was of no offence to you Aceman.

ampdog
12-15-2010, 22:13
Centurion is a 6 x 00 buckshot (1250 fps w/ 18" barrel)
Paraklese is a 9 x 00 buckshot (1300 fps w/ 18" barrel)

both are 1.8 inch shells

#5xbr
12-15-2010, 22:32
what if the bad guy lives,arrested, and now released and comes back pissed.

Aceman
12-16-2010, 07:47
I agree, just an observation. Like I said, was of no offence to you Aceman.

None taken man. Just saying that I am not going to argue with JD on on any matter Shotgun period!

Feel free to give me crap though. I will absolutely type faster than I think. Often.:supergrin:

Aceman
12-16-2010, 07:50
OK, help me out here, if I don't want to un-necessarily maim a home invader,

The concept of "maiming" only really applies to someone who lives.

Aceman
12-16-2010, 07:55
You guys do realize that, at trigger pull, you have just initiated a fight to the death?

This is a great point. as the recipient of the LTL blast - do you think you will really know under the circumstances what happened?

Doubtful - just that someone tried to kill you and failed. An attacker will follow up with the perceived appropriate response. It will not likely be the return of a rubber Glock round to demonstrate that they did not want to kill you either.

This is why I am a fan of clear announcement of my presence and intentions. If you stay, you had better have the same motive. Otherwise, I really do rather you just leave before anyone pulls a trigger.

Again - the locked, alarmed, armed house is a pretty good deterrent up front.

Most criminals will tell you they have no intention of a gun fight and are more than willing to leave if allowed.

Dogue
12-16-2010, 10:53
That is indeed the sole problem with #1 buck, you have to order it or load your own.
I agree! I have some on its way to try out but keep more 00 on hand than anything. I generally don't have people in other parts of my home, which is concrete block construction, so 00 and any overpenetration is not a concern for me. If I were in an apartment/condo I'd lean towards #4. I save slugs for when the zombies start driving cars:shocked:.

copaup
12-16-2010, 11:25
If he keeps coming after you've announced that you are armed and will shoot, he ain't coming to offer you cookies. Shoot him and keep shooting him until he stops. You've introduced a weapon and it's now a deadly force encounter, regardless of what it's loaded with. Less lethal ammo is appropriate in very narrowly defined military and police roles. I really can not see a valid use of less lethal ammo from a shotgun deployed by a private citizen. You announce your presence and intent. That is his chance to deescalate the encounter and leave. If he chooses to come forward then he has forced the situation an announced his intent to continue regardless of knowing there is an armed and ready occupant. Anyone who advances on you knowing you are armed in your own home is an obvious lethal threat. Respond appropriately.

Reduced recoil 00 buck works just fine. I've actually positioned my safe so that it will catch any round fired down the hallway from my bedroom, thus eliminating the overpenetration concern at least in the most likely (and thankfully still unlikely) scenario. My intent is to challenge from cover. If he wants the TV, he can take it and leave. If he comes to me, he gets carried out.

glock2740
12-16-2010, 22:01
I use Remington HV 2 3/4" 00 Buck in my 870.

WiskyT
12-17-2010, 06:52
In case anyone is interested, rubber buck shot is for crowd control. It is fired indirectly, at the ground, in front of a crowd to disperse them. It is not made for direct fire at close range center of mass. There have been several people killed from that around the world when it has been used as the big thinkers in this thread are intending to use it. If the posters in this thread intend to actually fire at the floor to repel an invader, they could find themselves in a big jam. They are firing a weapon at someone, why? Because their life was threatened? Then they would have responded with like force. There silly rubber buck shot response is proof they didn't feel threatened enough to shoot in the first place.

Rubber buck shot in a home defense scenario is basically a "warning shot". Guns aren't for warning. Firing them is deadly force that must be justified. Good luch defending your use of deadly force under those circumstances.

FWIW, less lethal ammo isn't even legal for LE use in NJ. The law looks at discharging a firearm at some as deadly force. Lead, rubber, bismuth, it's all the same. The only differnce is the rubber doesn't work as well and will make you look silly, like you plan your HD like some kind of tactical mall patrol.

ATL_GLOCK
12-17-2010, 07:53
3"in 00 buck

David Armstrong
12-17-2010, 09:18
David, at no point did I advocate shooting someone after they are no longer a threat.
Sorry, but "One of the tenets I have been taught time and again by people with MUCH more experience than I is that there should only be one story for the cops to hear - yours. Don't leave the bad guy standing to muddy the waters about if the shoot was legit" sure seemed that way. If it wasn't, my apologies.
As for not taking legal advice from LEOs, would you include someone like Mas in that field? Oh, heck, since you admit to being an LEO yourself, should I ignore everything YOU say as well? [/smartass]
No. Nobody said anything about ignoring what anybody said. The issue was getting legal advice, and for that you want a lawyer, not a LEO.
I am not coming down on anyone that chooses to load LTL, I am simply giving MY personal reasons to believe it is not the greatest idea.
I agree, it is not the greatest idea. But many of the arguments posted about using rubber buck seem to fall apart when one actually looks at them in th eproper context.

David Armstrong
12-17-2010, 09:22
OK, help me out here, if I don't want to un-necessarily maim a home invader, but want to use lethal defense where appropriate, how do I make that choice quickly?
-2 shotguns? (1 with rubber and 1 with lead - and then where do I keep them?)
- Leave 1 empty, choose my load when I need it and loose valuable self defense time?
- Lead in the chamber to eject if I want rubber?
- Vice versa?
- Seems to me the logistics of the choice are the difficult part - they ALL waste time.

My wife wants a TASER. That might be less lethal and more crippling than rubber.
Don't know why it wastes time. How long does it take to pump the slide?

David Armstrong
12-17-2010, 09:23
what if the bad guy lives,arrested, and now released and comes back pissed.
Contrary to the myth, plenty of folks shot with 00 Buck live.

fpgeek
12-24-2010, 23:31
I agree! I have some on its way to try out but keep more 00 on hand than anything. I generally don't have people in other parts of my home, which is concrete block construction, so 00 and any overpenetration is not a concern for me. If I were in an apartment/condo I'd lean towards #4. I save slugs for when the zombies start driving cars:shocked:.

When I lived in an apartment I had #4 buckshot but switched to 00 when I moved into a single residence, for the very same reason. I learned about this from a couple of federal agents I worked with many years ago.

FireForged
12-29-2010, 10:06
I load my home defense SG with #1 buck.

A3middie
12-31-2010, 11:26
When I was in the police academy I had the opportunity to sit and talk to the county prosecutor about this very subject from the standpoint of both L.E. and as a civilian. So let me say, if you are in my house uninvited you may take my T.V., microwave, computer, etc. and leave that's one thing. Our bedroom is upstairs as well as my three year old boy's and my baby girl's, if you try to come up those stairs I guarantee 100% you will not make to the top, shotgun or not. If I shoot you and stop the threat to my family and you live, good, that's the outcome I prefer. If I shoot you and you die, so be it. Will I be able to sleep at night having killed you and knowing that my family is safe and secure, you better believe it. Not trying to sound like a hard-a**, just stating the facts.

In case you want to know, Rem. 2 3/4 #1 Buck not rubber.

GroovedG19
12-31-2010, 22:44
For me its 00 buck from winchester ranger, federal and hornady at the ready.

Raleigh Glocker
01-01-2011, 06:10
In case anyone is interested, rubber buck shot is for crowd control. It is fired indirectly, at the ground, in front of a crowd to disperse them. It is not made for direct fire at close range center of mass. There have been several people killed from that around the world when it has been used as the big thinkers in this thread are intending to use it. If the posters in this thread intend to actually fire at the floor to repel an invader, they could find themselves in a big jam. They are firing a weapon at someone, why? Because their life was threatened? Then they would have responded with like force. There silly rubber buck shot response is proof they didn't feel threatened enough to shoot in the first place.

Rubber buck shot in a home defense scenario is basically a "warning shot". Guns aren't for warning. Firing them is deadly force that must be justified. Good luch defending your use of deadly force under those circumstances.

FWIW, less lethal ammo isn't even legal for LE use in NJ. The law looks at discharging a firearm at some as deadly force. Lead, rubber, bismuth, it's all the same. The only differnce is the rubber doesn't work as well and will make you look silly, like you plan your HD like some kind of tactical mall patrol.

+1

Late to the thread. I read through a LOT of discussion of LL (less THAN lethal has been dropped for the more accurate "less lethal") rubber buckshot before reading this voice of reason. Rubber buckshot is NOT designed to be less lethal fired directly at a person at short ranges. In fact, it was not designed to be used against a single person but against a gathering of people because of how it works. It is designed to be fired onto the pavement, where it then skips or bounces into a crowd of people. Just ask the Palestinians how less lethal they are when fired directly at a person.

So, those loading up with rubber buckshot so they don't have to see a BG die will be in for a big surprise. And you won't be protected from litigation for using the round in a way that is specifically prohibited by its manufacturer. A good prosecuting attorney could make you look like you didn't know what you're doing when you pulled that trigger.

srwm4
01-07-2011, 12:48
If one uses the less-lethal rounds only in a deadly force situation the litigation potential is pretty much eliminated, IMO.

I respectfully disagree. While not a perfect analogue, the case of Frank Magliato of New York shows us that if:
1) the use of deadly force is justified
2) a justified person uses deadly force, and
3) the use of deadly force can be shown to have not been intentional
then it is no longer a justified shooting.

Hence, if you attempt to use a "non-lethal" round, which tragically kills an intruder whom you were/would have been justified in using deadly force against, then legally, you may be guilty of manslaughter.

Additionally, in this scenario, I would be concerned that the use of "non-lethal" ammunition might signal to a potential jury that I did not believe that I was justified in using deadly force. Since simply pointing a firearm at another person constitutes "deadly force" in my state, this is a position I would not like to find myself in.

A man's decision on this issue is his own, but I prefer the Winchester 3" #1 buck (24-pellet) combined with a Knoxx recoil-reducing stock. I will say that in a pump-action at least, there is one redeeming aspect to putting a less lethal round up front - it takes less than half a second to get it out of the way, if needed.

G23c
01-10-2011, 19:23
i have my Mossberg 500 loaded with Winchester Ranger low recoil 00 buck.

gh0st614
01-10-2011, 19:32
My point exactly TNSTAAFL. Seems to me giving yourself a choice between Lethal and LTL slows you down and impairs your chances of survival.

Answer: (e) None of the Above!

Tasers kill people all the time when trained Police officers are using them, are you saying they are safer in your hands with no training? Use some buckshot, stay safe. /end

bluejackets92fs
01-10-2011, 19:35
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://alamoammo.com/cart/images/ammo_products/410.2.5.inch.fletchette.JPG&imgrefurl=http://alamoammo.com/cart/shotgun-ammunition/410-ammo&usg=__MSdbTNP6IvSLI-RkKN31nZFe8_8=&h=702&w=1017&sz=39&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=tAi5g0SiAcZJ7M:&tbnh=137&tbnw=166&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dshotgun%2Bflechette%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26biw%3D1440%26bih%3D712%26tbs%3Disch:1 0%2C152&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=112&vpy=375&dur=36&hovh=186&hovw=270&tx=168&ty=119&ei=zsErTcnFC4aglAeqlN24CQ&oei=zsErTcnFC4aglAeqlN24CQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=31&ved=1t:429,r:23,s:0&biw=1440&bih=712

Warp
01-11-2011, 20:47
Tasers kill people all the time when trained Police officers are using them

No. They do not.

Not. At. All.

David Armstrong
01-12-2011, 17:39
I respectfully disagree. While not a perfect analogue, the case of Frank Magliato of New York shows us that if:
1) the use of deadly force is justified
2) a justified person uses deadly force, and
3) the use of deadly force can be shown to have not been intentional
then it is no longer a justified shooting.

Hence, if you attempt to use a "non-lethal" round, which tragically kills an intruder whom you were/would have been justified in using deadly force against, then legally, you may be guilty of manslaughter.
Don't know who told you that, but it is not right. You are not using a non-lethal round, you are using a less-lethal round. You are using it in a situation where a lethal response is authorized. No problem from the deadly force perspective.

David Armstrong
01-12-2011, 17:41
Tasers kill people all the time when trained Police officers are using them, are you saying they are safer in your hands with no training? Use some buckshot, stay safe. /end
Tasers almost never kill people when used by trained police officers.

Aceman
01-12-2011, 19:21
Tasers almost never kill people when used by trained police officers.

Which is unfortunate, because a lot of tazed dudes need to be shot...

TheGrimReaper
01-13-2011, 14:06
#4 buck for me here.

mdfd
01-13-2011, 14:52
Which is unfortunate, because a lot of tazed dudes need to be shot...

:rofl::wavey:

ArtificialGrape
01-15-2011, 16:39
Have any of you seen what #6 birdshot does to a human at 10 feet?

Makes for one ugly plaintiff?

B Coyote
01-15-2011, 19:05
Tasers kill people all the time when trained Police officers are using them, are you saying they are safer in your hands with no training? Use some buckshot, stay safe. /end

I'd like to see documentation for this statement.

bc

dc2integra
01-15-2011, 20:52
00 buck from remington for me

Khao
01-15-2011, 22:33
Anyone have experience with the federal 9 pellet tactical load for 12 gauges?

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/175rds-12-ga-federal-tactical-2-34-9-pellet-lead-buckshot-ammo/cName/12-gauge-2-34-buckshot

I like price, just wanna know how it performs?

Warp
01-15-2011, 23:54
Anyone have experience with the federal 9 pellet tactical load for 12 gauges?

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/175rds-12-ga-federal-tactical-2-34-9-pellet-lead-buckshot-ammo/cName/12-gauge-2-34-buckshot

I like price, just wanna know how it performs?

You can do better. IMO you want the flite control wad.

Examples:

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/25rds-12-ga-federal-vitalshok-flitecontrol-2-34-9-pell-oo-buck/cName/12-gauge-2-34-buckshot

http://www.policehq.com/Products/FC-132LE

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ItemDetail.aspx?sku=36183



I actually just placed an order for this 30 seconds ago. 19 boxes (95 rounds) from Streichers for about $97 shipped.

A few years ago I ordered some of the LE-127 (flight control 9 pellet 00, full power) from ammo2to and it is the tightest patterning buck I have yet fired out of my 870. This is an extremely common experience from what I have read.