the down side to an external extractor [Archive] - Glock Talk

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1006
12-10-2010, 15:43
I thought some of you might find this interesting.

After somewhere in the neighborhood of 5000 rounds, my S&W1911 started to have problems. About once every 25 rounds, the empty case was falling out of the extractor prior to hitting the ejector. This would leave the case to be smashed by the slide as it moved forward to chamber the next round.

After looking at every other possibility that I could think of, I decided to remove the extractor from the slide for a look. No, I do not have pictures. I was amazed at how much black tar like gook there was under that extractor. Even the coils of the small spring that drives the extractor were gummed up. I shoveled the crud out and sprayed it down with some cleaner.

So, if your S&W1911 starts to give you similar results, you may want to check out the underside of the extractor.

gary_boom
12-10-2010, 19:38
Mine is doing the same thing. I will clean and see if it changes. Thanks

Big_Grumpy
12-10-2010, 19:51
Interesting. If you're shooting a S&W 3rd gen, it could very well be gummed up if it hasn't been paid attention to. High round count?

Oops... saw 1006... LOL

mstennes
12-11-2010, 07:35
http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww242/stennes/kimber1-1.jpg

1006
12-11-2010, 16:05
yep--the pic is the same as my smith was doing.

BOGE
12-11-2010, 18:38
Noted 1911 'smith Hilton Yam says this about the S&W 1911 extractor:

The S&W 1911 is a good value for the money, but some samples of the guns exhibit tolerance stacking which leaves the extractor sitting too high in relation to the cartridge rim. This causes the cartridge rim to get pulled off the extractor hook during barrel linkdown. The extractor loses grip on the casing, resulting in issues with extraction and ejection - commonly seen as erratic ejection patterns or stovepipes. The problem is not apparent in new guns or guns with relatively low round counts (less than 5000 rounds), which is why most shooters tend to do ok with the guns. Further, most shooters do not realize that the gun is borderline in functioning if the empty cases are ejecting from the gun - albeit in a haphazard pattern, to include straight up, to the left, over their head, or straight out in front of the gun. A gun that exhibits such flawed ejection patterns is not "flawless" or "working just fine", and is typically waiting to spring bigger problems on its user. A new extractor doesn't typically cure the issue, as the accumulated wear compounds the tolerance stacking problem.

The fact that there is a different Performance Center extractor should be an important indicator that there is a better solution. Further, it is important to note that I am not condemning all external extractors. If you have read my articles, I am a big proponent of the concept. However, the point here is that the results for the production SW1911 extractors are inconsistent.

If you already have the gun running and it is working for you at this time, then drive on. Just keep a critical eye on the gun and understand what you are observing...

1006
12-11-2010, 20:22
I don't want it to go without saying that this gun's external extractor has worked better than any of my other 1911's with traditional internal extractors. It wasn't until over 5000 rounds that it was ever removed for cleaning, and once it was cleaned it worked great again. I will just clean it a little more frequently. I bought this gun new; it is one of the first 150 1911's made by S&W (S/N JRD-14X). I have seen quite a few internal extractors break at IPSC matches. I do wish it had a hole simular to the one that Glocks use to vent crud from behind the extractor. And, I wish it was designed--like a Glock--to come apart with out having to drive a pin out.

I will take Hilton's advice and keep an eye on it--it will go back to S&W if the problem comes back while it is clean. Thanks BOGE for the info.

rsxr22
12-11-2010, 20:55
very funny pic mstennes!

mr.scott
12-11-2010, 23:14
I look at 1911s with external extractors as completions of JMB's flawed design. He after all went on the design the Browning Hi-Power and it has guess what? An external extractor. He saw the light. lol

Jim S.
12-12-2010, 09:35
I don't want it to go without saying that this gun's external extractor has worked better than any of my other 1911's with traditional internal extractors.

Have you ever bothered to properly adjust an internal extractor?

It wasn't until over 5000 rounds that it was ever removed for cleaning, and once it was cleaned it worked great again.

Hopefully you do not carry this gun for self defense.


I will just clean it a little more frequently.

Good idea.


I will take Hilton's advice and keep an eye on it--it will go back to S&W if the problem comes back while it is clean. Thanks BOGE for the info.

Let us know if there are any further issues with this. I always wondered about the externals.

Jim S.
12-12-2010, 09:38
I look at 1911s with external extractors as completions of JMB's flawed design. He after all went on the design the Browning Hi-Power and it has guess what? An external extractor. He saw the light. lol

Do you realize that you are second guessing the greatest gun designer of all time?
It wasn't a flawed design. You are comparing two different guns.
There is nothing at all flawed about an internal extractor.
If you understand how they work and how to properly adjust the extractor on a 1911 it will work exactly the way it was designed to work.

Alcoy
12-12-2010, 09:42
tagged...

MD357
12-12-2010, 10:00
Noted 1911 'smith Hilton Yam says this about the S&W 1911 extractor:

This. It's not the EE design, it's S&W's laziness in it's execution.

The S&W 1911 is a good value for the money, but some samples of the guns exhibit tolerance stacking which leaves the extractor sitting too high in relation to the cartridge rim.

tjpet
12-12-2010, 11:01
I look at 1911s with external extractors as completions of JMB's flawed design. He after all went on the design the Browning Hi-Power and it has guess what? An external extractor. He saw the light. lol


The BHP had an internal extractor until the early '60s.

1006
12-12-2010, 18:30
Jim--no I don't carry it.

S&W designed it and doesn't recommend removing the extractor for cleaning. I guess they thought it shouldn't need to be removed--I don't know--.

I don't recommend removing it either unless the person doing it is used to banging on their guns with a hammer and punch. This is really the only thing that gripes me about the design at this point.

I have adjusted the extractor on several of my traditional 1911--that is not an issue.

I really didn't start this thread to debate the design of extractors or my destain for cleaning guns; I don't have a hard preference for one type or the other, and I do clean my carry piece every time I shoot it. I thought the info might help someone else. It appears that it may have.

1006
12-12-2010, 19:57
Jim S. -- your posts and your avatar seem to be a good match --

Jim S.
12-12-2010, 20:04
Jim S. -- your posts and your avatar seem to be a good match --

Please explain.
I was responding to you.
External extractor works better than any internal...
Why?
If internals are adjusted they should work perfectly.
Other things you said got my attention too.
Did I hurt your feelings?

1006
12-12-2010, 21:23
I shouldn't have to adjust it when it is new.

As far as the comment about your avatar goes-no my feelings were not effected. It was very non-presumptous of you to ask, down right considerate.

Jim S.
12-13-2010, 16:58
I know I should just let this go but you were the one who made the as of yet unexplained comment about my avitar and my posts.
You never mentioned new or old as far as the extractors.
Simply that the external extractor worked better than any other 1911 with an internal extractor.
I wondered why.
So since my avatar is of a very sinister and evil Captain Kirk I take it that you didn't like my comments.

1006
12-13-2010, 21:26
No--I don't feel the avatar is sinister. I like Capt. Kirk. I do think you presume a great deal of things when reading my posts; at least that is the impression they leave me with. I may be reading you wrong. If so, I apologize.

I am not new to the 1911. I have adjusted a number of extractors, installed a lot of parts, and even cleaned a few guns that needed cleaning along the way with a great deal of success.

The thread was intended to be informative about the S&W1911.

The statement made by me regarding the type of extractor only referenced my other 1911's(Colts, Kimbers, Springfield , some new, some used). I mentioned this after it appeared that the thread was going to turn into an external extractor bashing thread.

It says nothing about the gun as a whole. Fact is, I have a long list of replaced components on the S&W1911; the extractor just isn't one of them.

Jim S.
12-14-2010, 15:00
Peace brother. No apology needed.
I didn't mean to sound like I was assuming anything about you.
I just get defensive about people generalizing stuff about 1911's that I love so much.
I'll admit my first response was a bit "rough".
Please accept my apology.

1006
12-14-2010, 17:04
Thanks---read you later -- shoot safe!

Nakanokalronin
12-15-2010, 05:48
I look at 1911s with external extractors as completions of JMB's flawed design. He after all went on the design the Browning Hi-Power and it has guess what? An external extractor. He saw the light. lol

The BHP was originally designed with an internal extractor and wasn't changed to an external extractor until 1962, thirty six years after his death. JMB had it right the first time. :whistling:

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv314/1911canebrake/HiPowerB_3-1.jpg
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv314/1911canebrake/pre62bhp-1.jpg

Berto
12-16-2010, 19:43
You shoot any gun enough and parts may need cleaning or adjustment. Having to clean an ext extractor is not a flaw IMO, I'm at about 2200rnds in my Cust II without any issues.
The whole point of the ext extractor was to address complaints regarding the int extractor,esp in high volume IPSC guns.
Good examples of both exist, as do bad.
FWIW I'd much prefer the ext in BHP, the old int design was weak.