DW Valor vs Baer TRS? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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irontexan27
12-15-2010, 13:28
I have seen the Valor compared to the Springfield TRP quite a bit and have been impressed the couple of times I have fondled them, but how to they stack up to some of the semi customs, namely the closest in cost competitor, the Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special?

There are a bunch of things I like about the Valor but I can't help but wonder if I would be leaving something on the table by not spending a couple extra bucks on the TRS.

What do you guys think?

Hokie1911
12-15-2010, 13:29
I'd go with the Baer. Easy choice. The Valor is a really nice gun though. Probably my favorite production 1911.

38 Super Fan
12-15-2010, 13:40
You're definately "leaving something on the table" if you pass on the Baer. If you've got the cash, step up to the TRS.

rsxr22
12-15-2010, 13:43
I agree. DW makes a great 1911 as far as production is concerned, but Baer is definitely on a higher rung

ajgranda
12-15-2010, 13:45
I think you are going to find at least 80% of the replies are going to say to go with Les. I agree!

nolt
12-15-2010, 13:47
valor has a cooler name.

everything else goes to the TRS.

jmho

bobtail1911
12-15-2010, 13:48
Dave Severns did a detailed review of both guns basically side by side. Took them apart, shot them and everything. Both are great guns IMO and great for the price (with the Valor look for a blem because that will save a couple hundred dollars). Fondled a TRS a few times and it just felt perfect. With that said, I think both are great guns.

glock2740
12-15-2010, 14:21
Never have shot or even fondeled a Valor, but they look damn good. That being said, I do have a TRS and like it alot.

Sarge43
12-15-2010, 14:35
Never have shot or even fondeled a Valor, but they look damn good. That being said, I do have a TRS and like it alot.
I'm on the other side of the coin as I own a Valor, and really like it alot - very well built, but I don't have an LB (I DO have one on order if that counts :supergrin: ). From the "tone" of your post, I bet you end up with both eventually anyway.
Interesting to see the opinions posted by those who own both though, good thread!
Good luck in your decision!
Sarge

MD357
12-15-2010, 14:48
Baers FTW!!! Best semi-custom EVER!!!

I agree. :whistling:

bobtail1911
12-15-2010, 14:57
From everything that I've read and seen they seem to be VERY comparable in parts, quality and accuracy. Yet when something like this pops up all I see is "Oh Les Baer's hands down. Or Best semi-production ever etc etc." I don't care one way or another but what is so much better? Is it their parts? Is it the accuracy? Reliability? CS? What ?

brzusa.1911
12-15-2010, 15:02
Les Baer hand down! No Dan Wesson for me :supergrin:

bobtail1911
12-15-2010, 15:22
Les Baer hand down! No Dan Wesson for me :supergrin:

Did I predict that or what? :supergrin:

HAIL CAESAR
12-15-2010, 15:26
From everything that I've read and seen they seem to be VERY comparable in parts, quality and accuracy. Yet when something like this pops up all I see is "Oh Les Baer's hands down. Or Best semi-production ever etc etc." I don't care one way or another but what is so much better? Is it their parts? Is it the accuracy? Reliability? CS? What ?

LB's have a better barrel, Kart.
LB's barrels are fit tighter.
LB's have a longer reputation.

New Blue TRS with NS is 1,750'ish
New SS Valor is 1450'ish.

Other than that not too much of a difference. The differnace in barrels and accuracy will only be of use to a very good bullseye shooter or a Ransom Rest. The difference seems to be .25 of an inch at 25 yards.

Just for the sake of argument...lets say it is .50 of an inch at 25 yards. There are not many shooting folks out there with the skill to take advantage of that small of a accuracy increase, or few games that the increase would matter.

I have/had both, like both, recommend both. Baer's do run a tight chamber and too tight of a barrel lock-up in my opinion for Duty use for LEO right out of the box. But that is EASILY taken care of if you know how. Or under a $100 for a smith to do it.

brzusa.1911
12-15-2010, 16:30
From everything that I've read and seen they seem to be VERY comparable in parts, quality and accuracy. Yet when something like this pops up all I see is "Oh Les Baer's hands down. Or Best semi-production ever etc etc." I don't care one way or another but what is so much better? Is it their parts? Is it the accuracy? Reliability? CS? What ?

All of the above - parts, accuracy, reliability, customer service. A LB is hand fitted - slide to frame, barrel to slide, barrel bushing...
CS is a big for me, and DW has the worst I ever experienced!

bac1023
12-15-2010, 16:34
I have seen the Valor compared to the Springfield TRP quite a bit and have been impressed the couple of times I have fondled them, but how to they stack up to some of the semi customs, namely the closest in cost competitor, the Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special?

There are a bunch of things I like about the Valor but I can't help but wonder if I would be leaving something on the table by not spending a couple extra bucks on the TRS.

What do you guys think?

I think the Baer is better. :)

bac1023
12-15-2010, 16:34
valor has a cooler name.

everything else goes to the TRS.

jmho

:rofl:

That's pretty funny. I guess I have to agree. ;)

nolt
12-15-2010, 16:36
rite now crazy john
http://www.proload.com/
has a 1.5"r sale...

you can get a baer custom barry with the 1.5" guarantee for $1789 or a TRS with the 1.5" fitting for $1889.

not too shabby...

bac1023
12-15-2010, 16:45
rite now crazy john
http://www.proload.com/
has a 1.5"r sale...

you can get a baer custom barry with the 1.5" guarantee for $1789 or a TRS with the 1.5" fitting for $1889.

not too shabby...

They sound like awesome prices.

GAFinch
12-15-2010, 16:59
The Valor doesn't have FCS.

The Baer comes in a cardboard box.

nolt
12-15-2010, 17:02
The Valor doesn't have FCS.

The Baer comes in a cardboard box.


haha nice!

fwiw the proload deal i posted above is for custom order guns only so all you fcs haters should take note!

(i dont care for them either but im not a hater)

edit: i personally think that the CC 1.5" with a naked slide would be awesome on that above deal...

willis68
12-15-2010, 17:23
Shoot the two of them together and compare, I have and the TRS is on on another level as mentioned earlier it is a hand fit pistol and for the money the best 1911 that you can buy mine has no front cocking serrations and I have a gun rug from Thunder Ranch, I also think Thunder Ranch sounds much cooler than Valor but that is just my opinion :cool:

willis68
12-15-2010, 17:25
rite now crazy john
http://www.proload.com/
has a 1.5"r sale...

you can get a baer custom barry with the 1.5" guarantee for $1789 or a TRS with the 1.5" fitting for $1889.

not too shabby...

If I am not mistaken those prices John has listed are before the 1.5 inch upgrade charge is added, if not that is a smoking deal

Rinspeed
12-15-2010, 17:56
Those Baers are overrated, I'm thinking of selling mine to get a Fusion. :dunno:

bac1023
12-15-2010, 18:01
Those Baers are overrated, I'm thinking of selling mine to get a Fusion. :dunno:

:rofl::rofl:

Hokie1911
12-15-2010, 18:28
Those Baers are overrated, I'm thinking of selling mine to get a Fusion. :dunno:

:animlol:

rsxr22
12-15-2010, 18:31
Definitely some nice prices if those are after the 1.5" is factored in

glock2740
12-15-2010, 19:04
Definitely some nice prices if those are after the 1.5" is factored in
I agree.

nolt
12-15-2010, 19:16
hes updated the website to specifically clarify that the prices include the 1.5" option.

HAIL CAESAR
12-15-2010, 20:31
All of the above - parts, accuracy, reliability, customer service. A LB is hand fitted - slide to frame, barrel to slide, barrel bushing...
CS is a big for me, and DW has the worst I ever experienced!

Alrighty then... tell me of the Valor line you have seen and tore down and have inspected the barrel fitment. Was all the ones you have seen drop-in parts or show signs of fitment? Was the the slide to frame sloppy? Did the FCG show signs of work? Was the Valor bushing a drop in part? Tell me what you would look for??

When you trigger gauged them what was your average pull weight?

How many LB's have you owned and worked on?
How many of the Valor's have you owned and worked on?

About reliability, how many thousands of rounds have have you fired out of of LB's and the 2010 Valor line? Did you keep a log of what type of failure you had? Round count, round count since cleaned and lubed, type of ammo, which mag??

Have you Ransom Rest'ed several examples of LB's and DW Valor line? What ammo did you use? Was it all factory ammo of various types, or did you do reloads worked up for each individual gun?

LB has good CS...especially in the last couple of years. He had a reputation of cussing people out on the phone and hanging up on them in years past. But honestly, some had it coming.:rofl:

I have used his CS and found if you were polite and reasonable ( and not a ninny) he would make it right.

I have used DW CS and found if you were polite and reasonable ( and not a ninny) they would make it right.

Have you used both DW and LB's CS?

Those Baers are overrated, I'm thinking of selling mine to get a Fusion. :dunno:
That is funny, I don't care who you are. :rofl:

brzusa.1911
12-15-2010, 21:10
Alrighty then... tell me of the Valor line you have seen and tore down and have inspected the barrel fitment. Was all the ones you have seen drop-in parts or show signs of fitment? Was the the slide to frame sloppy? Did the FCG show signs of work? Was the Valor bushing a drop in part? Tell me what you would look for??

How many LB's have you owned and worked on?
How many of the Valor's have you owned and worked on?

LB has good CS...especially in the last couple of years. He had a reputation of cussing people out on the phone and hanging up on them in years past.:rofl:
I have used his CS and found if you were polite and reasonable ( and not a ninny) he would make it right.

I have used DW CS and found if you were polite and reasonable ( and not a ninny) they would make it right.

Have you used both DW and LB's

I have two LBs, had two DWs (one sold to a member of this forum). Have used both LB customer service and DW. With LB I had my phone call answered within a couple of rings, after talking to a very polite lady on the phone LB himself called me, had my slide shipped in one day and back to me overnight in two days. Used DW CS, called nobody answered, emailed no replies for a couple of days, called CZ no help, got a phone call back had my gun shipped (paid one way), gun was back within a week. When talking to DW operations manager about peening caused by the side stop/released I was told that I didn't buy a $3000 gun and it was normal on a production gun.

HC you talk alot about working on 1911s....do you mind sharing some of your work? Pictures? References? Anything?

HAIL CAESAR
12-15-2010, 21:29
Sure, I will be building 2-10mm Governments right after the new year. The one buyer is coming up with some money now and nailing down a definite plan.

Go to TOS and there are several people there that I have worked on their guns. I have done guns locally for years. . A couple of complete guns (Nothing that compares to Yost or Bob Rodgers..trust me:embarassed:). I was the dept armorer for YEARS. Although sadly this was in the Glockenspiel years and only a few of us carried 1911's. Some carried Sig 220's/229's, Beretta's, and a very few revolvers.

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo349/hailcaesar_photos/9x233-1.jpg

Pic of gun I finished a few months ago. I did not IonBond the frame, round the butt, or do the GS. ( GS with a Fusion frames are drop in with STI GS's. You just set the release point. Which I perfer about 75% release point.)

Everything else I did. Slide to frame, fitted 3 barrels, FCG, hammer, bushings, 2 extractors (9mm and 9x23 can use the same one. 38 Super was separately needed.) TS.


Can you answer the rest of my questions?

Which Valor's did you own? What was you impression upon tear down?

Results of accuracy tests? Ammo used? Reliability results?

brzusa.1911
12-15-2010, 21:33
The Valor doesn't have FCS.

The Baer comes in a cardboard box.

You can get a LB with FCS or without, you can also get with naked slide, different grips, ambi or single thumbsafety, different triggers, different sights...

A Valor (or value as it translates to Spanish) you get what everyone gets - good parts, good fitting, but still a production line gun with a semi-custom price tag!

Production for production, I much rather a TRP than a Value!

bac1023
12-15-2010, 21:45
Definitely some nice prices if those are after the 1.5" is factored in

Its almost unbelievable, to be honest.

HAIL CAESAR
12-15-2010, 21:45
What is the definition of a "semi-custom"???

I know that a Full Custom is a one at a time piece built by a master 1911 smith.

A production gun is made in lots by a trained factory worker.

But what is the definition of a "Semi-Custom"?

I did just remember that "Valor" translated into Spanish does mean Value. Interesting, I wonder what "Valor" translated into Swahili means?

Keith Lawson at DW stated the Valor was so named because of his love for the movie The 300 Hundred.

HAIL CAESAR
12-15-2010, 21:47
Its almost unbelievable, to be honest.

Yes, that is some pretty good prices! I have seen several go for 1,300'ish go on GB lately that were fired twice and dropped once.

brzusa.1911
12-15-2010, 21:49
Sure, I will be building 2-10mm Governments right after the new year. The one buyer is coming up with some money now and nailing down a definite plan.
[...]


OK


Can you answer the rest of my questions?

Which Valor's did you own? What was you impression upon tear down?

Results of accuracy tests? Ammo used? Reliability results?


I don't own a Valor, and never will unless I get a smoking deal to make it worth. My impressions upon tear down of DWs are of well fitted guns, clean, no tool marks, no slide play, bushing nicely fitted, very nice production guns. But a LB is just better - a little bit of tool marks on the inside from handfitting, no slide play, tight barrel bushing (which I really like), feels more solid and better built than DW.

I also like the kart barrels that comes on LBs!

HAIL CAESAR
12-15-2010, 22:04
That is what I thought! You will do, you did do...blah blah blah...


I don't own a Valor, and never will unless I get a smoking deal to make it worth. My impressions upon tear down of DWs are of well fitted guns, clean, no tool marks, no slide play, bushing also nicely fitted, very nice production gun - nothing wrong with the gun. But a LB is just better - a little bit of tool marks on the inside from handfitting, no slide play, tight barrel bushing (which I really like), feels more solid and better built than DW.

Did I mention the DW is bad? Just in case, it is bad!

Interesting, again.

So last month you stated you never even seen a 2010 Valor series gun. Now you can wholeheartedly can recommend one gun over another and testify to standards and quality of a gun you have never seen. Never shot, never shot extensively.
Probably never shot yours extensively. Never done accuracy tests on either. ( Well, it's hard to shoot and do accuracy tests on a gun you have never seen):rofl:
Humm.....


You are going by the standards of the old line, what was it a 2007 or 2008 DW?

And go what exactly have you done...or never done??

You categorically bash DW CS. Mostly because the phone was not answered immediately. He called you back.

You also complain you had to pay for shipping to DW. Did you pay to LB??? Yeap, you did.

Did you receive customer service from DW for a used 2nd owner gun?? Yes, you did.

Does DW warranty cover 2nd owner guns, NO. But did they fix yours, YES.

And yes, slide to frame play and inside tool marks are the hallmark of what you need to look for in deciding if a 1911 is "good enough".:rofl:

MD357
12-15-2010, 22:18
What interesting is that HC was questioned in a specific manner and replied, however, he gets crickets when he asks the same specific questions in return or a supeficial response of..... "it just feels better." Kinda funny.

Don't get me wrong, I like Baers better, but I'm just noticing a pattern from a previous thread.

brzusa.1911
12-15-2010, 22:19
Interesting, again.

So last month you stated you never even seen a 2010 Valor series gun. Now you can wholeheartedly can recommend one gun over another and testify to standards and quality of a gun you have never seen. Never shot, never shot extensively.
Probably never shot yours extensively. Never done accuracy tests on either. ( Well, it's hard to shoot and do accuracy tests on a gun you have never seen):rofl:
Humm.....


You are going by the standards of the old line, what was it a 2007 or 2008 DW?

And go what exactly have you done...or never done??

You categorically bash DW CS. Mostly because the phone was not answered immediately. He called you back.

You also complain you had to pay for shipping to DW. Did you pay to LB??? Yeap, you did.

Did you receive customer service from DW for a used 2nd owner gun?? Yes, you did.

Does DW warranty cover 2nd owner guns, NO. But did they fix yours, YES.

And yes, slide to frame play and inside tool marks are the hallmark of what you need to look for in deciding if a 1911 is "good enough".:rofl:

p.s. Both of my DWs were NIB 2009, first owner in warranty - so yes they did fix! Good point cause I read lots of people complaining on TOS about DW CS!

p.s. I also never complained to a manufacturer about a gun and asked to buy the frame cheaper...just saying...

Yes, DW CS is really bad. I used it as first owner and in warranty!

brzusa.1911
12-15-2010, 22:51
OP, aside from all this discussion on the merits of these guns, if you buy a LB you get a cardboard box, if you buy the DW you can be a COTEP :aodnsb:

HAIL CAESAR
12-15-2010, 22:57
What interesting is that HC was questioned in a specific manner and replied, however, he gets crickets when he asks the same specific questions in return or a superficial response of..... "it just feels better." Kinda funny.

Don't get me wrong, I like Baers better, but I'm just noticing a pattern from a previous thread.

It's a trend. Last time we had this discussion he said I didn't know anything and posted Homer Simpson cartoons.

Several guys that I have worked on their guns or saw mine responded. (Thanks friends if you somehow read this.) ....And he posted more cartoons.

I asked several questions of him and somehow mentioned I was an LEO....and he posted cartoon pics of that South Park kid on a tricycle wearing a Officer's uniform and made derogatory remarks.

So I don't know if can answer any of my questions,,, but he does know a lot about cartoons.

To this date I have never gotten any answers to any serious questions. Doubt I ever will.

My issue is commenting on something you have NO experiences with.
This Sunday a friend asked me what I thought of the new Dodge 1 ton TD duallys. I told him that since I have driven Ford 350, 450, and 550 for the last 10 years almost exclusively and never even ridden in a new Dodge that I could give him an honest opinion. I told him the last Dodge I had any extensive experience with was over a 10 year old model.....

By the standards of some I should have told him that the Fords are much better than the new Dodges.

I have wholeheartedly recommended both the above brands to people. I try to point the person in a specific direction if the persons needs/wants are clear. What the other guy doesn't realize is I was buying/recommending LB's before he ever heard of them. I will still be buying/recommending them when his latest fascination with guns is over.

You are the man!


p.s. Both of my DWs were NIB, first owner in warranty - so yes they did fix! Good point cause I read lots of people complaining on TOS about DW CS!

p.s. I also never complained to a manufacturer about a gun and asked to buy the frame cheaper...just saying...

Yes, DW CS is really bad. I used it as first owner and in warranty!

Well you said it was a 2nd gun, now it was a 1rst owner gun. You got it fixed, and CS is "really bad"??

Bob (Fusion) offered me the frame for cheap, he set the price. I bought it for several reasons discussed and cussed elsewhere.

HAIL CAESAR
12-15-2010, 23:06
And obviously I am up to hearing anyone's opinion of any product. I like hearing opinions, I actually love them as they sometime stimulate my thought process and give me a new way of thinking about things.

But to unequivocally denounce a product you have NO experience with and never have even seen..............come on!!

brzusa.1911
12-15-2010, 23:28
[...]
Well you said it was a 2nd gun, now it was a 1rst owner gun. You got it fixed, and CS is "really bad"??

Bob (Fusion) offered me the frame for cheap, he set the price. I bought it for several reasons discussed and cussed elsewhere.

I am confused how does second gun relates to second owner :dunno:

Are you sure Bob (Fusion) offered you? How about a search on TOS? I am almost sure there is a thread there where he says you asked.

p.s. the "derogatory" comment had nothing to do with you being LEO or not, but the fact that you always come down claiming how good you are and how much you know about guns. And just so others know, the "derogatory" cartoon was a South Park character saying "you will respect my authoritah" - here is the "derogatory" picture I posted :dunno:

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz184/brzusa_1911/respect_authoritah.jpg

HAIL CAESAR
12-15-2010, 23:39
No, again. I asked what he was going to do with the frame. As in I did not want it reused on the new gun he was supposed to build for me. He said the frame would be sold at a severely discounted rate to someone wanting a frame for a .22 conversion kit and a new one would be used. We had talked about a frame for a .22 kit before.
I asked how much, he said, I said sold.

Now back to the question at hand.

What Valor model did you tear down, what was your round count, and what was your accuracy results. And what are the results from your Baer's?

How many barrels and bushings have you fitted? How many FCG (triggers, hammers, sears, disco's)?

HAIL CAESAR
12-16-2010, 01:17
Irontexan,

Sorry about conviluting your thread. Tomorrow, given time and coffee, I will dig up my old notes on my Ransom Rest results for my most shot and tested Baer. I will also post the results of my most tested DW, which lucky for you is a 2010 SS Valor.

I have the old results of the LB from way back, and what it does now after I had some work done to it by John Harrison. That way you can see it both ways, and see what I think is some interesting result.

That way you can see some actual results of testing and not a bunch of "I don't have any experience, knowledge, and I have never actually seen one, but I THINK this one is far superior.....".

All this will be subjective as it is a comparison of one DW and one LB, and not results of 100 DW and 100 LB's. But it's got to be a better than a bunch of guessing/speculating garbage.

HAIL CAESAR
12-16-2010, 01:26
And will everybody start "Quoting" Ol' Brzusa's posts. As he posts something, he will edit it to change the meaning. If he really sticks his foot in his mouth he will come back hours later and edit too.

I understand spelingz errors as LORD knows I do it. Or add a the laughing guy. But to change the whole post to say something else.......

brzusa.1911
12-16-2010, 06:44
Irontexan,

Sorry about conviluting your thread. Tomorrow, given time and coffee, I will dig up my old notes on my Ransom Rest results for my most shot and tested Baer. I will also post the results of my most tested DW, which lucky for you is a 2010 SS Valor.

I have the old results of the LB from way back, and what it does now after I had some work done to it by John Harrison. That way you can see it both ways, and see what I think is some interesting result.

That way you can see some actual results of testing and not a bunch of "I don't have any experience, knowledge, and I have never actually seen one, but I THINK this one is far superior.....".

All this will be subjective as it is a comparison of one DW and one LB, and not results of 100 DW and 100 LB's. But it's got to be a better than a bunch of guessing/speculating garbage.

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz184/brzusa_1911/0653_homer-eating-popcorn-small-c7873.jpg

Let me guess; it will be a lot of text but nothing or anyone to back it up :rofl:

glock2740
12-16-2010, 07:29
hes updated the website to specifically clarify that the prices include the 1.5" option.
Man, you can't beat that! The TRS and CC are great buys.

bobtail1911
12-16-2010, 07:41
http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz184/brzusa_1911/0653_homer-eating-popcorn-small-c7873.jpg

Let me guess; it will be a lot of text but nothing or anyone to back it up :rofl:

Give me a break dude. He asked some questions that you have YET to answer. The OP I'm sure is much more interested (as is everyone else) in hearing a professional's opinion based on ALOT of experience rather than your cartoons and token comments, " DW CS sucks! Les Baers are hand fitted! :yawn: "

Hokie1911
12-16-2010, 07:46
Just for the record...

Cardboard > COTEP

:supergrin:

brzusa.1911
12-16-2010, 08:28
Just for the record...

Cardboard > COTEP

:supergrin:

:rofl:

brzusa.1911
12-16-2010, 08:36
Give me a break dude. He asked some questions that you have YET to answer. [...]

Which questions? Maybe if I didn't answer a question is because I didn't know or didn't have the experience to answer...I can make it up if you want :supergrin:

I don't pretend to know things and come to forums being haughty and condescending on people because they give their opinions.

I guess some people feel the need to be haughty for self-afirmation :dunno:

bobtail1911
12-16-2010, 08:45
Your right your not haughty you just post cartoon pictures when you don't have anything meaningful to contribute. :tongueout:

MD357
12-16-2010, 08:45
Which questions? Maybe if I didn't answer a question is because I didn't know or didn't have the experience to answer...I can make it up if you want :supergrin:

I don't pretend to know things and come to forums being haughty and condescending on people because they give their opinions.

I guess some people feel the need to be haughty for self-afirmation :dunno:

HC asked the same questions YOU asked him.

I think you take people with more experience than yourself as being condescending when you make irrational criticisms. Even though you've admitted several times a lack of experience, instead of sitting back and learning, you tend to question the person if they disagree and immediately engage in ad hom.

I think it's obvious that once again, you got in over your head when you questioned someone here about 1911s?

brzusa.1911
12-16-2010, 08:53
HC asked the same questions YOU asked him.

I think you take people with more experience than yourself as being condescending when you make irrational criticisms. Even though you've admitted several times a lack of experience, instead of sitting back and learning, you tend to question the person if they disagree and immediately engage in ad hom.

I think it's obvious that once again, you got in over your head when you questioned someone here about 1911s?

Why don't you read the thread(s) from the begining and try to identify where I stated my opinion, without condescending any member, and where I was criticized because of my opinion. You should remember, you've done that as well.

Again, somepeople feel the need I guess :dunno:

p.s. I do listen and ask advice a lot - from people that have proven to know and have experience, not from those who just come and condescend others to show off!

MD357
12-16-2010, 09:07
Why don't you read the thread(s) from the begining and try to identify where I stated my opinion, without condescending any member, and where I was criticized because of my opinion. You should remember, you've done that as well.

Again, somepeople feel the need I guess :dunno:

p.s. I do listen and ask advice a lot - from people that have proven to know and have experience, not from those who just come and condescend others to show off!

You have stated several times that you are relatively ignorant about 1911s, yet you have such strong opinions? (not a personal attack, these are your words) Now, here and in other threads other members ask you for, OR provide themselves, some critical thinking about your criticisms. You then shut down, avoid the issue, post cartoons and then resort to some ad hom. This is a pattern easily referenced.

Now, given your posting track record, don't ya think being a bit more humble is a better route?

brzusa.1911
12-16-2010, 09:19
You have stated several times that you are relatively ignorant about 1911s, yet you have such strong opinions? (not a personal attack, these are your words)

[...]

Now, given your posting track record, don't ya think being a bit more humble is a better route?



Isn't that humble enough for you? I guess not looking from a condescending point of view :dunno:

Hokie1911
12-16-2010, 09:27
:popcorn:

brzusa.1911
12-16-2010, 09:34
Your right your not haughty you just post cartoon pictures when you don't have anything meaningful to contribute. :tongueout:

Waiting on your contribution bobtail :tongueout:

knedrgr
12-16-2010, 09:39
:popcorn:

move over. :popcorn: Did you bring anything to drink? I'll get some :drink:

brzusa.1911
12-16-2010, 09:40
:stooges:

Funny thing, again from a previous thread, none of the guys who really contribute to this forum with real constructive comments get into any type of condescending behavior, does that say something? Maybe they know what they are talking about and don't need to force themselves :dunno:

nolt
12-16-2010, 10:02
:drink:

hes drinking that like its an irish car-bomb

HAIL CAESAR
12-16-2010, 10:31
The LB in question is a PII 1.5 that I traded off a friend in 1999 or 2000. He bought the gun NIB and one of his first 1911's. He jumped into the deep end of the pool and didn't know what he was in for. The gun was so tight you had to break battery open using a hard edge. It was a jammo-matic.

He wanted to trade me out of a couple of guns to get rid of it. I explained to him 500 to 800 more rounds and maybe a little elbow grease and the gun would run fine. He didn't want nothing to do with it anymore and we traded.

The gun was then shot by me and others with some 230 lead ball reloads and a HEALTHY charge of powder. With this (over 900FPS) type loading the gun started to work and break in. After several hundred of those rounds it was becoming consistently reliable (loosening up). It would not shoot the basic 200 SWC 800FPS target loads with any reliability and hung up with regular "Ball" factory loadings. And you had to be very judicious in your reloads as the Baer has a very tight chamber, which is fine because it is a target gun. Somewhere over 2,000 rounds it began to humm right along with most rounds. That is when I first Ransom'ed it against some other guns I had. (I'll post all the tests together later).


2 or 3 years ago I sent the gun to John Harrison for Ionbond, rail, sights, and some cosmetic touch-ups. He recommended to widen the feed ramp as it was narrow ( I've heard this before), putting in a new bushing (that you can remove with you finger), reaming the chamber as it was too tight (I knew that), and relaxing the lower legs.
I agreed as you only live once and asked for even more cosmetic touches.

I tested it after it got back and will post those results too.

On to the 2010 Valor.
I got it, shot it, and then tested it. It has worked from day one and bullet one. Which it should considering the intended usage of this type of 1911 setup, which I believe is a SD or Duty gun. I have adjusted the trigger up to 4.75 which is where I like all my guns. Other than that I haven't did anything to it. I did find that it did not care for about half of the CMC Power Plus's I have without tuning.

After I tested it stock, I thought...hummm... what if I fit one of them pipe-wrench turning bushings to the gun. What kind of accuracy increase can I get. (The stock bushing is stiff, but finger tight.) So after I fitted a new bushing out came the Rest again.

Enough of the history, but I thought some would be interested.
Now for the good part...the results.........................................................

HAIL CAESAR
12-16-2010, 11:20
I had the Rest back when I got the Baer so I decided then to test it, after it was reliable, to really see about these 1.5 Baer's. (I was not disappointed.)

I tested Rem ball, Fed ball, Corbon 230, Fed Hydra 230, and various reloads at the time. With the reloads I experimented with several types of powder, several charge weights, OAL, and crimp. Even tried Rem primers instead of the usual Win. I will not list all the groups with every reload as most were about the same. Most the various factory loads were all within .10 to .20 of each other. If nothing else this gun was consistent in it's excellent accuracy.

Also note that these were 5 shot groups at 25 yards. 6 shots were taken, but the first hand slung round was thrown out and was not counted. I have found that the first round out of a RR is always a tiny bit off. I (think) this is because the first round was chambered by hand and the following rounds were loaded by the guns actual recoil.

The Fed Hydra was the best factory loading with a 25 yards. (Surprised me too)

.835/.722/.749/.668/.779 were the results.
So giving up human error in measuring ragged holes in paper....the gun is definitely within the 1.5 degree of accuracy with factory ammo or so close who gives a darn.

bobtail1911
12-16-2010, 11:45
From everything that I've read and seen they seem to be VERY comparable in parts, quality and accuracy. Yet when something like this pops up all I see is "Oh Les Baer's hands down. Or Best semi-production ever etc etc." I don't care one way or another but what is so much better? Is it their parts? Is it the accuracy? Reliability? CS? What ?



^^^ I was simply asking the question, why? Ok so the Les Baer is better, I just want someone to say why other than your (brzusa) reasons of "Ummm the slide to frame fit is tighter and DW CS sucks!" Give me a break here. I'm not pretending to be super knowledge about the nitty gritty of 1911's and one higher end company versus another. I was simply asking for someone to say why, not pretending to be more knowledgeable than others who have more experience than myself or you. Be humble and maybe just read a little before you decide give your broad and overreaching opinion.

BOGE
12-16-2010, 11:47
:stooges:

Funny thing, again from a previous thread, none of the guys who really contribute to this forum with real constructive comments get into any type of condescending behavior, does that say something? Maybe they know what they are talking about and don't need to force themselves :dunno:



Even a fool sometimes realizes when his a_ _ has just been handed to him. A moron doesn't. Quit while you are ahead as you just appear even more stupid (if that's even possible at this point) by digging your hole deeper with each succeding post in this thread. :wavey:

HAIL CAESAR
12-16-2010, 11:48
Next I is the best groups out of all the hand loads I worked up tailored to this guns chamber.

230 grain lead ball. Win cases, Win primers, short OAL of 1.235, and a dose of 5.6 Win 231.

.678/.637/.715/.696/.721

Now we were talking. Again this is with obvious human error factors. Obvious to anyone that has tried to do this.:rofl:
These are big bullets, ragged holes, and very tight groups. I decided on the max width of the groups and subtracting .452 method.

As you can see this is one seriously accurate firearm for a factory gun. Also the difference between the best factory and the best tailored loads is very small. Yes, it looks like a bigger difference in print. I can't imagine a game or a real world scenario that .10 at 25 would make ANY difference. But when things get this small, every incremental decrease in group size is hard to do.

Also note that with this gun, like any gun, I have gotten fluke basically one hole groups. If you shoot any gun enough you will "luck" in a miracle group. But with a gun this accurate "lucky" groups come up more frequently than other less accurate guns.

HAIL CAESAR
12-16-2010, 11:56
More too come about the "JH mod'ed Baer" and then to the DW.....if anyone even cares at this point.:rofl:

Hokie1911
12-16-2010, 12:08
More too come about the "JH mod'ed Baer" and then to the DW.....if anyone even cares at this point.:rofl:

I really enjoyed your review about the VBOB a while back. That was very well done, Alan. :thumbsup:

Rinspeed
12-16-2010, 12:11
Also note that these were 5 shot groups at 25 yards. 6 shots were taken, but the first hand slung round was thrown out and was not counted.




Thanks for posting your results Alan, I assume that you haven't had a chance to get some data at 50 yards. One of these days I'm going to buy a rest, I think it would be a lot of fun.

brzusa.1911
12-16-2010, 12:18
I guess the OP has enough proof which one is better :wavey:

brzusa.1911
12-16-2010, 12:21
deleted... :wavey:

MD357
12-16-2010, 12:32
The LB in question is a PII 1.5 that I traded off a friend in 1999 or 2000. He bought the gun NIB and one of his first 1911's. He jumped into the deep end of the pool and didn't know what he was in for. The gun was so tight you had to break battery open using a hard edge. It was a jammo-matic.

He wanted to trade me out of a couple of guns to get rid of it. I explained to him 500 to 800 more rounds and maybe a little elbow grease and the gun would run fine. He didn't want nothing to do with it anymore and we traded.

The gun was then shot by me and others with some 230 lead ball reloads and a HEALTHY charge of powder. With this (over 900FPS) type loading the gun started to work and break in. After several hundred of those rounds it was becoming consistently reliable (loosening up). It would not shoot the basic 200 SWC 800FPS target loads with any reliability and hung up with regular "Ball" factory loadings. And you had to be very judicious in your reloads as the Baer has a very tight chamber, which is fine because it is a target gun. Somewhere over 2,000 rounds it began to humm right along with most rounds. That is when I first Ransom'ed it against some other guns I had. (I'll post all the tests together later).


2 or 3 years ago I sent the gun to John Harrison for Ionbond, rail, sights, and some cosmetic touch-ups. He recommended to widen the feed ramp as it was narrow ( I've heard this before), putting in a new bushing (that you can remove with you finger), reaming the chamber as it was too tight (I knew that), and relaxing the lower legs.
I agreed as you only live once and asked for even more cosmetic touches.

I tested it after it got back and will post those results too.

On to the 2010 Valor.
I got it, shot it, and then tested it. It has worked from day one and bullet one. Which it should considering the intended usage of this type of 1911 setup, which I believe is a SD or Duty gun. I have adjusted the trigger up to 4.75 which is where I like all my guns. Other than that I haven't did anything to it. I did find that it did not care for about half of the CMC Power Plus's I have without tuning.

After I tested it stock, I thought...hummm... what if I fit one of them pipe-wrench turning bushings to the gun. What kind of accuracy increase can I get. (The stock bushing is stiff, but finger tight.) So after I fitted a new bushing out came the Rest again.

Enough of the history, but I thought some would be interested.
Now for the good part...the results.........................................................

Retort predictions...

- Baer slide tighter, has better "fit and finish"
- Post cartoon
- Play victim after dishing out ad hom
- Post smiley w ad hom
- All of the above. :supergrin:







Seriously though, thanks for posting the comparison HC. Interesting on the HS, I've never found them to be accurate relative to HST but I never put them on a ransom.

MD357
12-16-2010, 12:33
My name is Boge..... I am a cigarrette

WTF? :rofl:

HAIL CAESAR
12-16-2010, 12:34
I really enjoyed your review about the VBOB a while back. That was very well done, Alan. :thumbsup:

Thanks for posting your results Alan, I assume that you haven't had a chance to get some data at 50 yards. One of these days I'm going to buy a rest, I think it would be a lot of fun.

Thanks fellas.:wavey:

Rin, I have done 50 yards before. But besides the extra walk...there isn't much of a difference other than X2.

I also shoot for real tight groups over a screen. That way I can monitor velocity at the same time. That way if I am shooting and getting 810, 800, 812, 807 FPS and a great tight group...and then bang a 856 FPS shot that throws a bullet out of the group. I know I am not testing the gun, but the lack of consistency in the ammo. Doing it all at once at 25 is easier for me.

I don't know about other guys when they do it, but when I do this type of thing it eats a whole day up.

HAIL CAESAR
12-16-2010, 12:36
I guess the OP has enough proof which one is better :wavey:

deleted... :wavey:

Dang, I missed the cartoons and derogatory comments about nothing...before he deleted them. Anyone get them??:rofl:

MD357
12-16-2010, 12:37
Dang, I missed the cartoons and derogatory comments about nothing...before he deleted them. Anyone get them??:rofl:

He quoted Boge and called him a cigarette???

brzusa.1911
12-16-2010, 12:38
[...]

:yawn: :wavey:

brzusa.1911
12-16-2010, 12:39
He quoted Boge and called him a cigarette???

That is a pretty neat screen name...why didn't I think of that - BOGE :rofl:

HAIL CAESAR
12-16-2010, 12:41
HC, Wow...that was pretty impressive review :faint:

p.s. :rofl: Good seeing the COTEP guys joining each other :rofl:

:aodnsb:


My name is Boge..... I am a cigarrette

That is a pretty neat screen name...why didn't I think of that - BOGE



Thank goodness for email notification. I captured the latest treasures.

brzusa.1911
12-16-2010, 12:45
Thank goodness for email notification. I captured the latest treasures.


You are so predictable :rofl: I am really having a good time :wavey:

bobtail1911
12-16-2010, 12:47
You are so predictable :rofl: I am really having a good time :wavey:

I'm sure you are. It would be nice if you didn't turn a discussion such as this into what your doing. I will learn to expect no less from you.

brzusa.1911
12-16-2010, 12:51
I'm sure you are. It would be nice if you didn't turn a discussion such as this into what your doing. I will learn to expect no less from you.

No problems, bobtail, coming from you it is a compliment :wavey:

bobtail1911
12-16-2010, 13:03
No problems, bobtail, coming from you it is a compliment :wavey:

oH now your just being a meany :crying:

nolt
12-16-2010, 13:05
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/5176/thisthreadkeepshappenin.jpg

HAIL CAESAR
12-16-2010, 13:06
Anywho, on to the John Harrison Baer.

This took the stock Baer and reamed the chamber to be reliable with all ammo. Bushing replace that will now turn by hand. Relaxed the barrel with a new fitted slide stop.

So all this ruined my accuracy....., depends on your definition of ruined.

.742/.679/.693/.733/.762

So yes the gun in not as accurate as it once was. But it also has thousand of more rounds through it since the first test. And if I shot enough groups I will finally get 5 out of 7 groups that will beat the gun when it was fresh and new. But I think you all get the idea. You do not have to have a gun so tight you have to beat it open and use a wrench to have an accurate gun. And the accuracy it did "lose" would be lost on anyone that is not a World Class shooter that competes for big money, or a bored country boy with a RR.

Oh, and I shoot 7 groups too. I throw out the tightest and the loosest.

brzusa.1911
12-16-2010, 13:08
oH now your just being a meany :crying:

I am so sad for you :crying:

Hokie1911
12-16-2010, 13:13
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/5176/thisthreadkeepshappenin.jpg

http://www.wtf.com/gallery/data/500/5591die_thread_die.jpg

HAIL CAESAR
12-16-2010, 13:23
Now onto the stock DW Valor.

Dan Wesson Valor .952/ 1.08/ .913/ .927/ .973.

This is with the 200 SCW, Win cases and primers, 5.4 of Rex, and a longish OAL.

The Valor had a looser chamber than the stock Baer, making it IMO better for Duty, CCW, or pure IDPA games. It eat everything form day one.
While the accuracy is not up there with the stock Baer or the Mod'ed Baer.....at what level of skill, or game, to you need or can take advantage of an extra .25 at 25. (or .50 at 50 yards.) I cannot see the difference for a Police Officer, CCW, or IDPA'er.

Now to the AL Mod'ed Valor. ( A pipe wrench bushing):rofl:

bac1023
12-16-2010, 13:39
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/5176/thisthreadkeepshappenin.jpg

:rofl:

HAIL CAESAR
12-16-2010, 13:50
Sorry it's taking me a bit to write all of this. With the ice storm here last night, I was regulated to babysitting duty today for my newest nephew. 6 month old.:faint:

I took an over sized EGW bushing and fitted it to the Valor for the sake of doing it and to see what I would get.

Groups with same ammo above was;

.792/ 7.91/ .809/ .797/ .783.

That with a 14 bill gun and a 30 dollar part.

I took the bushing off and haven't had it on since. I think the stock bushing if more than fine for accuracy. And I like the finger removable bushings.

So now you can see. the difference between the "big bragging rights" guns and the " low class scummy production" guns is not what people think.

Yes there is a difference. Most has to due with bushing, lower lugs, and chamber dimensions. And A LOT to do with what levels of stringency you are willing to go to to test them.

A tenth or twentieth of an inch of accuracy difference is so minuscule it is not worth even arguing about.

This is a test of a DW Valor and a LB 1.5 gun. The difference in a Baer 3 inch gun and the Valor is even less. As even the regular 3 inch Baer's do right at under a inch at 25 (or two inches at 50). Most of it is just bragging rights, that is all.

bobtail1911
12-16-2010, 13:53
Thanks for the info Al, I appreciate it and believe there are others who will as well.

HAIL CAESAR
12-16-2010, 14:03
To answer a couple of PM's at once;

The bench I us is a large metal lay out table in the barn I have no idea what it weighs, but it takes a loader tractor to move it. Then I lay the bucket on it to add downward pressure to the table. Makes it VERY sturdy.

Sorry about all the typing errors. I was trying to do this while holding a baby....and he liked the keyboard too. One group was typed as .8444444555555ttttttttgghyt......or something like that.:rofl:

Bobtail, don't forget to get a hold of me about that issue. I can fix you up.

brzusa.1911
12-16-2010, 14:41
Good job HC!

I apologize to the forum members for my unecessary comments, and hijacking the thread!

I stand by my opinion on not liking the DWs after some bitter experiences with they CS on NIB pistols, nonetheless they are great pistols and I only sold them because I didn't want to support the manufacturer any longer.

Again, great job HC, and my apologies!

bac1023
12-16-2010, 15:14
Sorry it's taking me a bit to write all of this. With the ice storm here last night, I was regulated to babysitting duty today for my newest nephew. 6 month old.:faint:

I took an over sized EGW bushing and fitted it to the Valor for the sake of doing it and to see what I would get.

Groups with same ammo above was;

.792/ 7.91/ .809/ .797/ .783.

That with a 14 bill gun and a 30 dollar part.

I took the bushing off and haven't had it on since. I think the stock bushing if more than fine for accuracy. And I like the finger removable bushings.

So now you can see. the difference between the "big bragging rights" guns and the " low class scummy production" guns is not what people think.

Yes there is a difference. Most has to due with bushing, lower lugs, and chamber dimensions. And A LOT to do with what levels of stringency you are willing to go to to test them.

A tenth or twentieth of an inch of accuracy difference is so minuscule it is not worth even arguing about.

This is a test of a DW Valor and a LB 1.5 gun. The difference in a Baer 3 inch gun and the Valor is even less. As even the regular 3 inch Baer's do right at under a inch at 25 (or two inches at 50). Most of it is just bragging rights, that is all.


Very good info, Alan. Thanks.

knedrgr
12-16-2010, 15:17
So now you can see. the difference between the "big bragging rights" guns and the " low class scummy production" guns is not what people think.

Yes there is a difference. Most has to due with bushing, lower lugs, and chamber dimensions. And A LOT to do with what levels of stringency you are willing to go to to test them.

A tenth or twentieth of an inch of accuracy difference is so minuscule it is not worth even arguing about.

This is a test of a DW Valor and a LB 1.5 gun. The difference in a Baer 3 inch gun and the Valor is even less. As even the regular 3 inch Baer's do right at under a inch at 25 (or two inches at 50). Most of it is just bragging rights, that is all.

THanks for the info and time dedication. I appreciate the info and review.

HAIL CAESAR
12-16-2010, 16:50
Very good info, Alan. Thanks.

THanks for the info and time dedication. I appreciate the info and review.

Thanks for the info Al, I appreciate it and believe there are others who will as well.

Thanks Brian, Knedrgr, and Andrew.

Just to clear up some more questions;

6 shots, throwing out the first shot as it was hand chambered.
7 groups fired, I throw out the tightest and largest group.
All rounds are hand loaded. Each charge is individually weighed.
Every round is mic'd.
Brass is cleaned and inspected.
All rounds are shot over a screen. If one round have a significantly different velocity then the rest, then that round doesn't count if I can call it. If I can't the whole group is thrown out and the grouping in started over.
I don't remember the temps outside. But as I am out there all day, and I ain't doing all this in the freezing cold or scorching heat....I'm guessing it was between 60 and 80. No wind.

And yes, beer is involved. Although it is afterwords. But the grill is going all day.:rofl:

bac1023
12-16-2010, 18:23
I don't remember the temps outside. But as I am out there all day, and I ain't doing all this in the freezing cold or scorching heat....I'm guessing it was between 60 and 80. No wind.



Temps in PA have been brutal this past week or so. :cold:

HAIL CAESAR
12-16-2010, 18:43
Temps in PA have been brutal this past week or so. :cold:

Oh brother, it is cold ass a well diggers arse here too. Plus the ice.

38 Super Fan
12-16-2010, 19:47
Sorry it's taking me a bit to write all of this. With the ice storm here last night, I was regulated to babysitting duty today for my newest nephew. 6 month old.:faint:

I took an over sized EGW bushing and fitted it to the Valor for the sake of doing it and to see what I would get.

Groups with same ammo above was;

.792/ 7.91/ .809/ .797/ .783.

That with a 14 bill gun and a 30 dollar part.

I took the bushing off and haven't had it on since. I think the stock bushing if more than fine for accuracy. And I like the finger removable bushings.

So now you can see. the difference between the "big bragging rights" guns and the " low class scummy production" guns is not what people think.

Yes there is a difference. Most has to due with bushing, lower lugs, and chamber dimensions. And A LOT to do with what levels of stringency you are willing to go to to test them.

A tenth or twentieth of an inch of accuracy difference is so minuscule it is not worth even arguing about.

This is a test of a DW Valor and a LB 1.5 gun. The difference in a Baer 3 inch gun and the Valor is even less. As even the regular 3 inch Baer's do right at under a inch at 25 (or two inches at 50). Most of it is just bragging rights, that is all.
Thanks for sharing all of that with us HC, lots of good stuff. :cool:

nolt
12-16-2010, 20:35
srsly tho HC thank you for the objective info. it goes alot further than 'this one felt more quality in my hand' etc etc

HAIL CAESAR
12-16-2010, 20:47
Fella's I actually like both....very much. If usually asked this question I ask the prospective buyer "what do you want it for? And what are your wants and needs?"

I then ask another question "You ever plan on selling it?" If no then the DW gets the nod. Because historically they do not have the resale value and the market.
If they even think they will sell or trade it....LB.

I may change my mind when I get a couple more 10's of thousands of rounds down the Valor as I have with Baer's.

But as it stands now it is not a simple question to answer. I would want to know EXACTLY what he wanted to do with it, and all his expectations.

The answer is not simply "LB's are sooo much better" or "Valor's are sooo much better". Especially if you do not have experience with one, or either.
They are really two different built guns.

HAIL CAESAR
12-16-2010, 20:51
irontexan27,

PM if you want and I will be glad to give you my phone number and give you advise about both guns. Then you can make up your own mind.

Mayhem like Me
12-17-2010, 12:47
I have owned a LB as a second owner.. I did not feel comfortable carrying it for Self defense ever, it was a 5 inch carry model .

I shot factory Ball ammo exclusively and after about 2000 rounds it started to feed some JHPs semi reliably.
If I had the information then that I have now I would have taken it to a smith and had him loosen it up a tad.

I still needed the wrench to take it apart when I traded it and it was very tight in frame to slide.

My Dan Wesson Cbob was not as picky on break in and still shot very well, it needed about 500 rounds down the pipe, then after a trip back to fix a mysterious stovepiping issue I received it back with a new extractor and link and pin( I paid one way and was not happy but they threw in two magazines).

The Cbob never bobbled again and was my EDC for 2 years.

If I had the money and another gun to use as a carry gun while I broke it in I would buy the LB TRS..


If I needed a gun to shoot right away with minimal break in for self defense or duty I Might go with a DW but more than likely a Springfield MC Operator or TRP since I hang a light on mine.

Rinspeed
12-17-2010, 13:03
If I had the information then that I have now I would have taken it to a smith and had him loosen it up a tad.





Shooting them is a more fun way to do it. :dunno:

irontexan27
12-17-2010, 17:13
Well, I did not expect this to turn in to a 5 page argument but there is defiantly some useful info here. Not that they really made the decision any easier. Yes shooting both would be ideal but I can't even find a Baer to handle in person, let alone find one to shoot.

Thanks for the responses.

Hail Caeser, thanks for the objective posts. PM sent.