Saiga 12 vs. Mossberg 930 SPX [Archive] - Glock Talk

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mdfd
12-22-2010, 18:27
Help me decide between the two to add to my collection. For HD as well as casual range fun and SHTF purposes. I already have a Mossberg 590 if that matters at all...
Which would you pick and why?

TIA!

Jon_R
12-22-2010, 18:49
Do you want to keep it loaded. I would think but I am not certain a loaded mag in a saiga pushing the top shell against the bolt for extended periods of time would be a problem. If you plan to keep it unloaded mag near it then it is not an issue. I don't think leaving the mags loaded is an issue but I don't have one. From that for HD I would give the slight edge to the mossberg 930 for quickest to get ready.

I have a 930 SPX but I have a 590 I keep cruiser ready for home defense.

Having said that the next shotgun I get will be a Saiga 12 but it is strictly for playing games. Just trying to decide if I want a basic and do the work or just buy a tricked out gamer one. :)

mdfd
12-22-2010, 18:58
thanks for the reply Jon, if I go the Saiga 12 route, chances are I will leave the mag fully loaded but not inserted.
I also would feel better getting one that has been professionally converted if I go that route....perhaps we can get someone like Red Jacket to give us a deal huh?:whistling:

Being a 930SPX owner, perhaps you can offer some insight...what are your likes/dislikes of the 930 SPX? what is it about the S12 that makes you want one that the 930 SPX does not already do for you?

Jon_R
12-22-2010, 19:21
Most of my guns primary purpose is playing games. USPSA, IDPA, 3-Gun, etc.... If I have to use them for defense so be it I am confident in them because I shoot them often in varying conditions in simulated stress. Last weekend I ran my BCM SBR AR in 50 degree pouring down rain weather because I had a match. No match and I don't shoot in 50 degree rain storms. I also shot my G23 and Mossberg 590 and all worked fine. The carbine I left sitting on a table in the open between stages so it was as wet as it could be. When it was my turn I just pointed the barrel down to drain and shot the stage.

The Saiga desire is simply to allow me to reload my shotgun during a stage 10 rounds at a time in a couple of seconds. I can't do that with the 930.

Likes for the 930 well balanced, I have the ghost rings which I like on that gun. Action is smooth and fast enough. Very light. No rubber seals like the 11/87.

Dislikes. None strong dislikes. It holds 7 + 1 and in Limited and Tactical Division I am allowed to be 8 +1 so I give up a round to others at the start of each stage. There is a ghost loading technique but I have gotten into that yet. The loading gate at least on mine an early one is a little shorter then I would like. If you don't get the shell in far enough into the tube it can pop back under the loader then you have to mess with the bolt to clear it out. Not a big deal until you are under a clock in a match. No choke tube. For heavy shot no big deal but when some punk decides to put a plate out at 25 yards sometimes you can't knock it down with birdshot and cylinder bore. I got around it by being the Match Director and having a lack of people who help setup stages. :whistling:

I was thinking about a Saiga from here.

http://www.randrtargets.com/

mdfd
12-22-2010, 19:29
I've heard nothing but good things about R&R, allbeit they are a bit pricey but appropriate for what it seems like you're looking to do with it.
Somehow I think the 930 SPX will prove to be more reliable unless I go for a professionally tuned S12 which in turn will probably cost at least twice as much as the 930 SPX...

ScrappyDoo
12-23-2010, 06:15
930 SPX is the bomb!

Can't go wrong. everyone loves it... it's at least as good as those FN SLP/M2 Tac's at half the price...

m24shooter
12-23-2010, 08:50
Dislikes. None strong dislikes. It holds 7 + 1 and in Limited and Tactical Division I am allowed to be 8 +1 so I give up a round to others at the start of each stage.
You can add a Nordic or Choate extension that will raise your capacity. Yes, it will extend a little past the muzzle, but that won't hurt anything.
There will also be a new competition model of the 930 coming out that will solve a lot of the issues with gun games.
There is a ghost loading technique but I have gotten into that yet.
It is doable, but not just the easiest thing to do.
The loading gate at least on mine an early one is a little shorter then I would like. If you don't get the shell in far enough into the tube it can pop back under the loader then you have to mess with the bolt to clear it out. Not a big deal until you are under a clock in a match.
That's been one of my complaints. If there was a clearing slot in the lifter, the round could be pressed back into the mag tube.
No choke tube.
The barrel can be threaded for chokes, and I believe the new comp version will have a 21-24" barrel with no ports and will be threaded for chokes.

mdfd
12-23-2010, 10:35
.... The loading gate at least on mine an early one is a little shorter then I would like. .....

so has there been a change in the loading gate on the newer versions or does the issue still exist?

Jon_R
12-23-2010, 11:36
so has there been a change in the loading gate on the newer versions or does the issue still exist?

I have not heard it has changed but I have not put much time into researching.

unit1069
12-24-2010, 17:09
I'm really liking the Mossberg 930 SPX.

Mind if I ask how reliable it is?

mixflip
12-24-2010, 17:45
Help me decide between the two to add to my collection. For HD as well as casual range fun and SHTF purposes. I already have a Mossberg 590 if that matters at all...
Which would you pick and why?

TIA!

Just my personal opinion based on one actual hands on experience with a Saiga 12...its freakin awesome! But due to the owner having feed problems with training ammo (cheap birdshot), and the issues with shotgun shells becoming compressed over time since they are stacked horizontally...I just could not see myself using a Saiga as my primary HD shotgun at this time.

It would be a killer fun gun but my 930SPX is personally proven to be rock solid reliable with zero malfunction at over 1000 rounds. I used to be the guy who never advocated semi-auto shotguns for HD but now that I have run my 930 fairly hard with the cheapest ammo possible, I personally would use it as a primary HD gun. (only because I tested it myself. Not all semis are GTG until it passes my own tests)

The things I love about the Saiga that would get me to still buy one is that reloading a full mag is lightning fast (obviously due to the detachable mag).

Its all about preference.

Every time the 930 comes up I feel obligated to direct folks to my 930 SPX videos or send them to M24shooter's awesome review.

Here is my 930SPX video.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axCK9ZqvIfw

Ride5C2
12-25-2010, 10:29
I'm really liking the Mossberg 930 SPX.

Mind if I ask how reliable it is?

Mine eats anything, super reliable with a mediocre cleaning regimen. I've put a PolyChoke II on mine for variability.

frankr
12-26-2010, 01:36
Love my 930 SPX, lost count but have well over 1,000 shells through the gun mostly low brass target loads with 0 malfunctions.

Marry Christmas

wvglock
12-31-2010, 09:41
I was in the same situation as the OP, when I saw the review of the 930 spx against the cz 712 utility. I was dead set on the 930, but the review got me thinking. The only problem is that I can't add 50 lbs. of "tacticool" to the cz, and the spx already comes with 25lbs of tacticoolness. Actually a clamp for a light and a mag extention is all I want. The light is easy, but the mag extender is the problem.

Anyone come across the cz in the hunt for the great auto 12?:dunno:

Sheepdog Scout
12-31-2010, 12:56
If I had a dollar every time some one wrote/said "SHTF purposes".

ScrappyDoo
12-31-2010, 13:03
See but what is wrong with preparing? Just IN Case...

You can't GET prepared..... You have to BE Prepared....


imho.

mdfd
12-31-2010, 13:19
If I had a dollar every time some one wrote/said "SHTF purposes".

you would have yet another dollar....:whistling:

I do like the advantage of a faster reload on the S12. Most all of the professionally converted S12's will shoot low brass reliabily for all your plinking needs. Since the S12's were originally designed to shoot reliably with higher loads/high brass, HD purposes should not be an issue, unless you believe in defending yourself and family with #8's.....
I like the 930 SPX for it's out of the box readiness and no need for "tuning", but I'm leaning towards a lghtly used professionally converted S12 if one ever comes my way...I still have my reliable 590 that I am keeping...

powder86
01-01-2011, 13:45
The loading gate at least on mine an early one is a little shorter then I would like. If you don't get the shell in far enough into the tube it can pop back under the loader then you have to mess with the bolt to clear it out. Not a big deal until you are under a clock in a match.

not a big deal until you're in a clocked match, or trying to reload in a HD scenario... mine does this occasionally and it drives me NUTS! :brickwall::burn::shakehead::fist:

Bullman
01-02-2011, 00:13
you would have yet another dollar....:whistling:

I do like the advantage of a faster reload on the S12. Most all of the professionally converted S12's will shoot low brass reliabily for all your plinking needs. Since the S12's were originally designed to shoot reliably with higher loads/high brass, HD purposes should not be an issue, unless you believe in defending yourself and family with #8's.....
I like the 930 SPX for it's out of the box readiness and no need for "tuning", but I'm leaning towards a lghtly used professionally converted S12 if one ever comes my way...I still have my reliable 590 that I am keeping...


But I don't want another gun to keep up with magazines, you don't ever have to run out with the SPX cause you can top off as you go without removing magazines. Just depends on how you look at it I guess.

ScrappyDoo
01-02-2011, 08:49
But I don't want another gun to keep up with magazines, you don't ever have to run out with the SPX cause you can top off as you go without removing magazines. Just depends on how you look at it I guess.

Very well put Sir!!!!!!!!

I just don't see how anyone can make the real argument that the SPX can't keep up with the Saiga of all things, because it doesn't take detachable mags. If the Saiga was so revolutionary, it would have been copied a little more. Lets even go a step further-- If the Mossberg engineers thought the excellent and outstanding representation of Combat power the 930 SPX represents NEEDED something like a detachable magazine -- they would have given it that option!!

:tongueout::wavey::cool: :wavey::wavey::wavey:

Jon_R
01-02-2011, 09:08
Depends on application. I have a 930 SPX and plan to add a Saiga. The 930 SPX can not keep up in a USPSA 3-Gun stage where you start with an empty shotgun or in any standard stage of greater then about 13 shots. Someone real good with a Semi-Auto and setup to use speed loaders can usually keep up with a Saiga but still loose. But what do I know I use a Mossberg 590 in 3-Gun.

If you where allowed to use drums in USPSA it would be even more slanted towards a Saiga.

Very well put Sir!!!!!!!!

I just don't see how anyone can make the real argument that the SPX can't keep up with the Saiga of all things, because it doesn't take detachable mags. If the Saiga was so revolutionary, it would have been copied a little more. Lets even go a step further-- If the Mossberg engineers thought the excellent and outstanding representation of Combat power the 930 SPX represents NEEDED something like a detachable magazine -- they would have given it that option!!

:tongueout::wavey::cool: :wavey::wavey::wavey:

cj5mrt
01-02-2011, 10:43
"If the Mossberg engineers thought the excellent and outstanding representation of Combat power the 930 SPX represents NEEDED something like a detachable magazine -- they would have given it that option!!"

These same engineers think the "Chainsaw" is a great idea too. :rofl::rofl:
I'm thinking about getting an S12, mainly because I like the AK style gun. I wouldn't feel outgunned holding a 930 either.

Mike

mdfd
01-02-2011, 13:50
I see both perspectives here, now you can recognize my dilemma....wish I had the cash to get both...

Frog1
01-02-2011, 17:01
I operated a Saiga for years. I won't bad mouth it much. Well made, heavy, but the detachable magazine can be a two edge sword.

For most shotgun applications, a more traditional design works better. Lighter, top off, pointability, ease of loading, and the ability to mount better sighting options.

The Saiga does not lend itself to quick reloading even with the mag. The extended mags are heavy and cumbersom to use.

If I had to choose between the Mossberg and the Saiga, I would take the Mossberg.

GlockStacker
01-15-2011, 21:08
I have the same dilemma but am leaning heavily towards the Mossy, I love the AK design too and have several but the ghost ring sights and balance on the 930 put it out ahead.

One other thing I haven't seen posted here is that the tube mag is a lot easier to shoot from a prone position, that 10 round 12guage mag puts you at least a foot off the ground/bench whatever.

Bullman
01-16-2011, 02:15
Now I am not trying to be funny when I say this, but if it came down to shooting it prone, shoot it gangsta style, that should work for ya.

Raleigh Glocker
01-16-2011, 06:51
ne other thing I haven't seen posted here is that the tube mag is a lot easier to shoot from a prone position, that 10 round 12guage mag puts you at least a foot off the ground/bench whatever.

Some use that mag quite effectively as a monopod. Check out 2:32 in this video. Seems to work pretty well. The rest of the video is fun to watch from a 3-gun perspective, though you don't need a $3500 race gun to have a heck of a lot of fun with a Saiga.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FziECY1mSaY

DD26
01-17-2011, 01:21
Just my personal opinion based on one actual hands on experience with a Saiga 12...its freakin awesome! But due to the owner having feed problems with training ammo (cheap birdshot), and the issues with shotgun shells becoming compressed over time since they are stacked horizontally...I just could not see myself using a Saiga as my primary HD shotgun at this time.

Lots of S12's choke up on birdshot at first. But it's easily correctable if it doesn't just fix itself from running high brass through it for awhile, to smooth things out. Lots of companies offer services to polish the internals, which will help in cycling. Also, CGW, the company who does the warranty work for RAA will fix the gun for free, if the cycling problems are due to undersized or not enough gas ports.

But the thing people seem to forget when they talk about an S12's reliability with low brass, is that it was not designed for low brass. It's a combat shotgun, made to use high brass, full power loads. Even though people use it as such, it's not meant to be a turkey gun or skeet gun. It can easily be made to run for those applications and loads, but the point is, it's not what it was designed for, so it's not technically a draw-back or negative point.

As for the shells deforming, it's only when you keep a mag inserted on a closed bolt (which is supposedly more apparent when it's crappy shells like Winchester bulk-pack birdshot). This can be prevented by either keeping the bolt locked mag with a mag inserted, or some people put a slug as the first round in the mag. Or just don't keep a mag in it.

deadmonkey90
01-17-2011, 02:30
save some money and get a benelli m4.

ennis
01-19-2011, 13:21
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/cadjak/Misc%20Firearms/Saiga/s12.jpg

frankr
01-20-2011, 02:39
save some money and get a benelli m4.

No, save some more money and get the 930 SPX.

DRAGON1970
01-20-2011, 06:59
No, save some more money and get the 930 SPX.

^^I agree. Get the 930 SPX and be done with it. I used mine this past weekend at a Tactical (IDPA) 3-gun match. Much "faster" and smoother than the 1100 I have been using for the last few years. No break in, it shot everything I put through it. We generally shoot anywhere from 75-100 heavy birdshot and 5-20 slugs at each match.

It was not as dirty as my 1100 usually gets and it is a little lighter. I really enjoyed shooting it.

ferd
01-21-2011, 11:40
A Saiga 12 bolt can be locked back, and a fully loaded drum (MD 20) can be locked into the weapon. Both can stay this way for the next 50 years and still function just fine when needed.

docwade
02-19-2011, 21:39
Depends on lots of things. Saiga owners seem to want a shotgun that they can tinker with a bit more than average. I own two Saigas currently, and have owned two others. The current ones both have original magwells so mag changes are pretty smooth without the tip-in rock and lock. If money is a concern, get the spx. If you want a shotgun you are really going to WANT to upgrade, get the saiga.
http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab185/docwade25/3ee6e485.jpg

ronin.45
02-20-2011, 19:36
Very well put Doc.

mdfd
02-21-2011, 01:39
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/cadjak/Misc%20Firearms/Saiga/s12.jpg

Holy donkeydong!!!:wow:

Thanks for the input guys - I went with the 930 SPX for now. I just didn't feel like having to maintain a whole 'nother platform of mags..:wavey:

Raleigh Glocker
02-21-2011, 04:31
Holy donkeydong!!!:wow:

Thanks for the input guys - I went with the 930 SPX for now. I just didn't feel like having to maintain a whole 'nother platform of mags..:wavey:

Seems like you made a great choice for yourself.

BTW, please tell me you know that pic is photoshopped. You don't have to look that hard to see that one comp, three ejected shells, and about half that magazine were copied from the photo and added for comic effect.

mdfd
02-21-2011, 11:17
Seems like you made a great choice for yourself.

BTW, please tell me you know that pic is photoshopped. You don't have to look that hard to see that one comp, three ejected shells, and about half that magazine were copied from the photo and added for comic effect.

Thanks - and yeah, "...holy donkeydong!..." was also supposed to be funny....R&R Targets does however run a 20rnd stick with 2 barrel comps..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FziECY1mSaY&feature=player_embedded#at=41

I've been lurking in the S12 forum for a while now. Perhaps I'll see a Tromix or Red Jacket conversion sometime in my future...

DD26
02-21-2011, 14:05
Seems like you made a great choice for yourself.

BTW, please tell me you know that pic is photoshopped. You don't have to look that hard to see that one comp, three ejected shells, and about half that magazine were copied from the photo and added for comic effect.


Yup.

Here's the original:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=26752

mdfd
02-21-2011, 19:28
Yup.

Here's the original:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=26752

holy donkeydong!:wow:

ronin.45
02-21-2011, 22:06
Yup.

Here's the original:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=26752

Cuz that's much less ridiculous!:rofl:

Raleigh Glocker
02-22-2011, 08:33
Cuz that's much less ridiculous!:rofl:

Apparently the person who took the time to photoshop it thought so.
:)

Probably a highly-trained Benelli shooter getting his butt whipped on the reloads.

DD26
02-22-2011, 08:38
Cuz that's much less ridiculous!:rofl:

It might look funny, but that very gun runs like a raped ape, and the Finnish guy behind the trigger knows what he's doing. The Fins have been doing that stuff with S12's long before we have in the states.

ronin.45
02-22-2011, 09:31
I have no doubt that it runs. I know a guy who competes with a Saiga. If there are more than 8 targets the saiga walks away from other guns. I just find all the mods amusing.

corpdriller
02-22-2011, 11:44
You can add a Nordic or Choate extension that will raise your capacity. Yes, it will extend a little past the muzzle, but that won't hurt anything.
There will also be a new competition model of the 930 coming out that will solve a lot of the issues with gun games.

It is doable, but not just the easiest thing to do.

That's been one of my complaints. If there was a clearing slot in the lifter, the round could be pressed back into the mag tube.

The barrel can be threaded for chokes, and I believe the new comp version will have a 21-24" barrel with no ports and will be threaded for chokes.

How can the 930 barrel be threaded for chokes and for what choke tubes?

DD26
02-22-2011, 14:15
I have no doubt that it runs. I know a guy who competes with a Saiga. If there are more than 8 targets the saiga walks away from other guns. I just find all the mods amusing.

Then you'll find the name they gave it amusing too....They call it "****bird".:rofl:

ronin.45
02-22-2011, 15:55
Then you'll find the name they gave it amusing too....They call it "****bird".:rofl:

Fitting:rofl: