Just the sound of a pump shotgun... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Todd Hogue
12-24-2010, 20:26
"Just the sound of racking the action will scare most intruders away". I am sure you have heard that statement before. I posted this on my blog. What do you guys think. Comments?

Does this scenario sound familiar? You’re standing in a gun shop or sporting goods store and you notice a clerk hand a pump action shotgun to someone and declare “just the sound of racking the action will scare most intruders away”. I often wonder how that comment affects the thought process of the hesitant gun owner. My term “hesitant gun owner” is defined as a person that doesn’t have a background in firearms and is shopping for their first self-defense weapon. The hesitant gun owner typically doesn’t have much if any experience with firearms. Maybe crime has skyrocketed in their neighborhood or they know someone who has been assaulted or robbed. Something has caused them to visit this gun shop today and they assume the guy behind the counter knows what he is talking about. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don’t! While this statement can be a cliché used by the well trained and decisive gun-owner, it can be a stumbling block for the uninformed. It could even get them killed.

Most honest well adjusted citizens don’t want to harm another human being. They just want to be left alone and be able to pursue life, liberty and happiness. So how can this statement cause the hesitant gun owner to get killed? What if they decide not to load their shotgun and just use the “deterrent” of racking the slide to scare away the violent criminal offender? What if that doesn’t work? The odds are it won’t work. With our current revolving door justice system our criminals have become very experienced. The repeat offenders walking the streets today have been pepper sprayed, hit with an expandable baton, tased and some have been shot. Do you really think the sound of racking a shotgun can be relied upon to scare off someone who is threatening you? Is this a helpful thought to put into the mind of the uninformed? The answer is a definite NO!

Gun shop owners should encourage the “hesitant gun owner” to obtain some training from a local or regional trainer. If that is out of the question due to the cost of tuition then frequent practice should be the next suggestion. Buying a shotgun and placing it in the closet is not an effective way to protect life and limb. In order to stay familiar with the shotgun a quarterly trip to the range would be my suggestion. Almost everyone can afford a six or seven dollar box of shells for practice every 3 months.

Next time we will shed some light on the often heard gun shop statement “you don’t even need to aim a shotgun, just point and shoot”. Sadly, nothing could be further from the truth…

Todd
http://gun-guy.blogspot.com/

wtf0ver
12-24-2010, 21:43
The sound of a shotgun racking is very intimidating. It's unmistakeable and might change the mind of your run of the mill smash and grab type burglars. The hardened criminals maybe not. if you don't have it loaded and if you're just relying on the sound of it racking to deter a burglar you're sadly mistaken.

Jon_R
12-24-2010, 21:54
The sound of a shotgun racking is very intimidating. It's unmistakeable and might change the mind of your run of the mill smash and grab type burglars. The hardened criminals maybe not. if you don't have it loaded and if you're just relying on the sound of it racking to deter a burglar you're sadly mistaken.

It will likely force the bad guy to a decision point. Fight or flee. No telling what that particular bad guy will choose.

If the racking of your shotgun is followed by the sound of the racking of his shotgun you will really wish you had practiced more because you are getting ready to experience some drama. :whistling:

mixflip
12-24-2010, 22:02
Home defense shotguns are meant for shooting people...not scaring people.

PeaceKeeper
12-24-2010, 22:03
The sound of a pump shotgun is extremely effective, that is when it is proceeded immediately by a large muzzle flash and loud boom.

PrO...
12-24-2010, 22:12
Unfortunate for any criminal caught trying to rob/harm my family and me...

I have a semi-auto!

gruntmedik
12-25-2010, 10:43
...If the racking of your shotgun is followed by the sound of the racking of his shotgun you will really wish you had practiced more because you are getting ready to experience some drama. :whistling:

That's sig line material right there. :rofl:

bug
12-25-2010, 10:50
Home defense shotguns are meant for shooting people...not scaring people.

There will be no better responses than this
+1

Uncle T-bone
12-25-2010, 10:59
I only want the bad person in front of my shotgun to see a bright flash and hear a loud boom and then maybe, just maybe hear me rack it...

aippi
12-25-2010, 15:34
Many guys on these blogs think of HD as the final scene in "Scareface". They watch to many movies.

Most every time if someone breaks into your home it is because they think no body is there. When they realize that someone is, they get out of there because the messed up.

Yes, there are occupied home invasions that you hear about on the news and you hear about them because they are so rare. And yes, a single woman living alone is at a greater risk for this. However, most of these occupied invasion involve drugs or large amounts of cash. This just does not affect most all of us and thinking a group of armed thugs are coming to your house is unrealistic.

If you hear a sound and think someone is out there, call out " I am Armed and on the phone with the police" then rack that pump. If someone was there you will hear a door slam or window break as they dive out it.

Thinking you can just sneak up on someone and shoot them for being in your home is wrong headed. There are ways for a person to end up there and not be intending you harm. If you are that afraid to live alone then move back in with your parents so they can protect you.

GoBow
12-25-2010, 16:47
You don't have any guarantee that the BG will even hear you rack the slide. Most folks (and animals too) unconsciously turn off their hearing if they are moving. They'll hear their own footfalls and whatever noise they make; but they won't hear other sounds unless those sounds are really loud. You could strike up a brass band and they still might not hear it. They're too preoccupied with the sounds they're making.

JBnTX
12-25-2010, 17:08
I think it's just one more of those highly overrated gun myths.:rofl:

It just assumes too much, and that's dangerous in a HD situation.:dunno:

southernshooter
12-25-2010, 19:24
Don't want to do the slide rack thing. Dump one round onto the ground and give my position away.

Glockdude1
12-25-2010, 19:27
No matter where you come from, everyone understands 12 ga pump......

:cool:

B Coyote
12-25-2010, 20:43
Home defense shotguns are meant for shooting people...not scaring people.

An excellent paraphrase of Travis Haley from Magpul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XCv0X6SqUg

bc

AggiePhil
12-25-2010, 20:59
You beat me to it. "I don't use a pump to scare somebody. I use a pump to shoot somebody."

vafish
12-25-2010, 21:12
Many guys on these blogs think of HD as the final scene in "Scareface". They watch to many movies.

Most every time if someone breaks into your home it is because they think no body is there. When they realize that someone is, they get out of there because the messed up.

Yes, there are occupied home invasions that you hear about on the news and you hear about them because they are so rare. And yes, a single woman living alone is at a greater risk for this. However, most of these occupied invasion involve drugs or large amounts of cash. This just does not affect most all of us and thinking a group of armed thugs are coming to your house is unrealistic.

If you hear a sound and think someone is out there, call out " I am Armed and on the phone with the police" then rack that pump. If someone was there you will hear a door slam or window break as they dive out it.

Thinking you can just sneak up on someone and shoot them for being in your home is wrong headed. There are ways for a person to end up there and not be intending you harm. If you are that afraid to live alone then move back in with your parents so they can protect you.

I agree with Aippi mostly, No rational person is going to stay in a home if they know there is a armed homeowner with a shotgun.

But, in my case I got a couple of barking dogs. If their noise hasn't persuaded an intruder to leave, then I'm not going to bother racking the shotgun. Besides that, racking the shotgun would eject the shell in the chamber.

aippi
12-25-2010, 22:08
Gobow - just post proves you have never heard an 870 racked with authority in the dead of night. There is no sound like it, nothing. Most anyone knows that sound nothing says get the F out of here like that sound.

AggiePhil
12-25-2010, 22:15
Deleted. It's Christmas. :whistling:

SarcoBlaster
12-25-2010, 22:22
Remind me never to take a class from AI&P Tactical (though I've never heard of them prior to today). Mindset problems.
:popcorn:

1faSStchevy
12-25-2010, 22:37
Only the second guy will hear my Mossberg "rack the action"

unit1069
12-26-2010, 11:19
When he was attending college a friend of mine took a girlfriend to explore a cave he was familiar with.

When they arrived there was a guy sitting in a car in the parking lot near the entrance. The two of them went into the cave for about 50 yards or so when my friend recognized the sound of a shotgun slide being racked.

They hurriedly left, and he told me he believed some local meth cookers were engaged in whipping up a batch inside the cave.

Truckee
12-26-2010, 16:54
I usually stay away from this sort of thread. But, some members I respect have said a couple of things that gave me pause. I've been prompted to waste a few minutes.

While I agree that shooting someone would be a horrid experience, I don't agree with giving a potential preditor any heads up (target indicators). I will attempt to intimidate them into fleeing, only after I've silently dialed 911 and covertly readied arms... and the perp is under my tactical advantage.

No rational person will be sneaking about my home at 4 a.m. I will count on the Mook becoming rational after I have the advantage, not prior to.

USMC06
12-26-2010, 18:03
I don't depend on the sound made by the racking of my shotgun to do my work for me, but ... Aippi is absolutely correct. If you have never heard the sound of a pump shotgun racked in the dead of night while approaching an "unknown condition", you have not heard it all. It can be LOUD and paralyzing to many.

ennis
12-26-2010, 18:29
Years back, a friend and his wife woke to an intruder in their apartment. They had a pump SG and a Garand under the bed. Each grabbed one. The intruder stuck his head into their bedroom. They racked the slide on the shotgun. The intruder calmly turned and spent the next 15 minutes rummaging through the house taking whatever he fancied, before leaving. The ammo was in another part of the house. But, the point is, racking of the shotgun, as well as seeing, two armed occupants, did absolutely nothing to discourage this guy.

I know this is where folks chime in with, "an empy gun is useless" or "He wouldn't have walked away from my house". What any of us will do at times like that is another question. This is only about the idea that racking noise from a shotgun is an effective deterrent. It wasn't in that one case.

El_Ron1
12-26-2010, 18:40
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w177/AndersonTechnologies/Forum%20post%20photos/barney-fife-2.jpg

ennis
12-26-2010, 18:45
:rofl:Perfect!

feesix
12-26-2010, 19:01
Not to argue anyones point, I dont give **** what got them in my house or how good person they are. They deserve to be shot theres other means of makeing ends then robbing people at the dead of night.

vafish
12-26-2010, 19:19
Years back, a friend and his wife woke to an intruder in their apartment. They had a pump SG and a Garand under the bed. Each grabbed one. The intruder stuck his head into their bedroom. They racked the slide on the shotgun. The intruder calmly turned and spent the next 15 minutes rummaging through the house taking whatever he fancied, before leaving. The ammo was in another part of the house. But, the point is, racking of the shotgun, as well as seeing, two armed occupants, did absolutely nothing to discourage this guy.

I know this is where folks chime in with, "an empy gun is useless" or "He wouldn't have walked away from my house". What any of us will do at times like that is another question. This is only about the idea that racking noise from a shotgun is an effective deterrent. It wasn't in that one case.

Stories like that are why I qualified my statement with the words "rational person".

Obviously the intruder in this story wasn't very rational.

AZ Husker
12-26-2010, 19:35
Many home invaders are out of their mind for one reason or another. The racking of a shotgun may not even register as a threat to them. I don't intend to give fair warning. Mine's already chambered.

kimo
12-26-2010, 19:38
The only thing they may hear in my house will be the soft click of the safety or maybe a slight creak in the floor.

VZ1600
12-26-2010, 19:53
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u286/guinea72/2961175776_b341ca0fc5.jpg

Um, yeah. The whole "rack the slide on the shotgun and the BG will crap themselves" is as old as the dinosaurs. Gimme a break! :whistling:

PeaceKeeper
12-27-2010, 01:37
I am going to build an alarm system that instead of blowing a siren inside the house it will play an MP3 of a shotgun being racked. That should do it.



:rofl:

El_Ron1
12-27-2010, 12:14
Don't forget to add: "The Authoritays Have Been NOTIFIED!"

David Armstrong
12-27-2010, 12:35
from Todd:
What if they decide not to load their shotgun and just use the “deterrent” of racking the slide to scare away the violent criminal offender? What if that doesn’t work? The odds are it won’t work.
Gotta disagree. While I certainly don't like the idea of threatening with an empty firearm, to argue the odds are that it won't work seem contradicted by reality, where data suggests that over 90% of defensive gun uses do not involve shooting the gun. Most BGs, particularly burglars, don't want to get into a fight, they want to get the stuff and go away. So yes, there certainly is a deterrent factor to racking the slide. That probably should not be your final line of defense, but it should not be neglected as an element in the process.

ADK_40GLKr
12-27-2010, 12:46
Besides that, racking the shotgun would eject the shell in the chamber.

I agree - I wouldn't want to waste any advantage I have with a load of buck already in the chamber.

aippi
12-27-2010, 13:04
A simple act of asking your local LEO's how many break ins involve unocupied homes and unarmed perps will make any reasonable person understand this issue. Thinking your home is going to be attacked like the ending scene of the movie "Scar Face" is wrong headed.

A thief is there to steal not fight. He thought no one was home. Just making a sound will make them leave and yes, the sound of a pump shotgun racking and calling out that you are on the phone with the police, says get out. If you are so afraid and lacking in your ability with a weapon that you are going to shoot anyone in your home first then find out who they are and why they are there then you are considering a cowardly act that will affect you the rest of your life. How can you take the act of killing so casually and not see the affects it is going to bring on you, your future and maybe financial ruin. Train with the weapon, become proficient, plan your response and you will be able to deal with a situation and still protect yourself and your family.

I have complete confidence in my ablity and my weapon. I know I have the ability to be deadly if needed and to know when that is. I do not have start shooting at a precieved threat as I am able to deal with the situation and determine if deadly force is called for. I do not fear things that go bump in the night 'cause I can bump back harder if need be.

Stealing is not a death sentence. I have nothing that I can not replace in this home. I do not use deadly force to protect property. I have something else for that. It is called insurance. What I can not replace is my life and I will take a life if needed to protect my own. But to kill when I don't know my life is even in danger, no way. That is the act of a coward.

This type of thread always upsets me because some of the responses are so illresponsible and paint us as the gun nut killers that the anti gun people believe us to be. I also see the voice of reason in many of the responses and that is assureing.

Aceman
12-27-2010, 13:10
aippi's post was great (as usual)

I WANT to announce that I am there, armed, and coming for you. I WANT you to take every opportunity to leave.

While everyone might not take the opportunity to leave - some or many will. Robbers want $$ and low hassle. And no one wants to be dead. As was said - "rational"

As for the "irrational" or stupid, or foolish or mean...now it's down to target ID and go/no go...

Better show up with your "A" game, because I'm showing up with the purpose of defending my family/children, a large amount of practice, a plan involving a backup shooter, the police on the phone, complete knowledge of my home, and a 100% tool for the job in top operating condition.

So, for everybody's sake, please exit the house now... And the go/no go; If you are standing there holding my TV in both hands - you are not a threat. You are however in a very bad situation...with a lot of opportunities to make very bad decisions with serious implications. So place the TV on the ground and lie down please...slowly.

Nestor
12-27-2010, 19:11
Just keep watching those stupid movies people.
For the gentleman that said:
I WANT to announce that I am there, armed, and coming for you.
This is a very bad decision to announce anything to the person who may kill You within a second or two.

bug
12-27-2010, 20:35
A simple act of asking your local LEO's how many break ins involve unocupied homes and unarmed perps will make any reasonable person understand this issue. Thinking your home is going to be attacked like the ending scene of the movie "Scar Face" is wrong headed.

A thief is there to steal not fight. He thought no one was home. Just making a sound will make them leave and yes, the sound of a pump shotgun racking and calling out that you are on the phone with the police, says get out. If you are so afraid and lacking in your ability with a weapon that you are going to shoot anyone in your home first then find out who they are and why they are there then you are considering a cowardly act that will affect you the rest of your life. How can you take the act of killing so casually and not see the affects it is going to bring on you, your future and maybe financial ruin. Train with the weapon, become proficient, plan your response and you will be able to deal with a situation and still protect yourself and your family.

I have complete confidence in my ablity and my weapon. I know I have the ability to be deadly if needed and to know when that is. I do not have start shooting at a precieved threat as I am able to deal with the situation and determine if deadly force is called for. I do not fear things that go bump in the night 'cause I can bump back harder if need be.

Stealing is not a death sentence. I have nothing that I can not replace in this home. I do not use deadly force to protect property. I have something else for that. It is called insurance. What I can not replace is my life and I will take a life if needed to protect my own. But to kill when I don't know my life is even in danger, no way. That is the act of a coward.

This type of thread always upsets me because some of the responses are so illresponsible and paint us as the gun nut killers that the anti gun people believe us to be. I also see the voice of reason in many of the responses and that is assureing.

I understand your point, but I believe you are judging some/not all peoples
responses wrong.
I do not want to shoot anyone either, However I think that once a person has entered your home uninvited the rules have now changed!

You have no Idea what there intentions are, yes you are right 95% of those people thought the house was empty and will leave as fast as possible, but that other 5% well thats the ones we need to worry about.

I think racking the slide for the sake of intimidation is wrong headed.
If they know anything about shotguns they now have an idea that you may be intimidated and more than likely you only have a max of 8 shots before reload then maybe 4 on the side. Also pumps are known to short stroke when the person operating it is nervous or scarred.
It happens not often but it can.

They also know the general direction you are from that noise.
I think if you chose to say something to him/her/them(more than one person is more common all the time)
It should be that you called 911 and they are on your way and you should leave Now!
After you have gotten your kids/wife sig other in the room behind you!

And then if they decide to keep on coming you take the fight to them with as much violence of action and unfair fight as you can!!!
surprise is your friend.
you want to win a gun fight!!!!
Not make it fair chance time for the man who thought it was ok to come into your home and threaten you and yours.
If they leave great, if they don't well, I would show as little of my hand as possible to them! till its to late for them.

Aceman
12-28-2010, 09:05
Just keep watching those stupid movies people.
For the gentleman that said:

This is a very bad decision to announce anything to the person who may kill You within a second or two.

Just to clarify:

If there is a BG in my housed armed/dangerous within a second of shooting me I may skip the niceties. Of course we are going straight to boomsticks. I wish me luck because this guy obviously has the initiative.

That said, any announcements are coming from behind cover, with weapon either getting ready, or actually ready.

So - I have just moved from a situation where in all likelihood the person in the home is a robber and will choose to exit the house / or I can shoot fairly certain under the belief that they remain to do me harm, having been given the opportunity.

Or, I can scare the bejeebers out of someone already on the edge, and turn a non-encounter into a shooting situation when it was very avoidable.

Please explain the "bad decision" part of that. Yes - I give up "tactical advantage" of surprise - but this is not a SEAL team clearing my house. It is a robber in all likelihood.

I never said anything about just standing in the open, and chatting with the BG about how this is a bad idea and letting just take a second or two to shoot me instead of leave. If he is one to two seconds from a shot he is most likely in a Surefire hi-beam, with Mr. Mossberg pointed his way, safety already off (it was when I picked it up), finger on trigger. I may not even get to say anything before the trigger gets pulled. But if I can, I will. And if he turns and shoots at my voice he still won't hit me. But now I know what he intends and will perform accordingly.

Again - give me a specific scenario and I'll give a specific response.

PeaceKeeper
12-28-2010, 09:22
This is a true event that took place back in 1984:

I just moved to Atlanta and was living in an apartment, I was working days and sometimes I would come home and find that the maintenance guy had come into my apartment to 'fix' something. I would call the office to complain and they would tell me they had a key to every apartment and they could come in anytime to check on problems with the water or whatever.

Then my shift changed and I started sleeping in the morning from about 8am to 3pm. I had one of those loft style units where the bedroom overlooked the living room and front door. One morning about 10am I heard a knock on the door followed by "maintenance", I rolled out of my bed, grabbed my 870, took aim at the front door and waited. A couple of minutes later the door opened and the guy strolled in, I shouted "What the hell are you doing in my apartment". He looked up and said "I am here to check your water heater". I told him the water heater was located outside the unit and to keep out of my apartment unless I called about a problem.

He never heard me rack the gun, it already had a chambered round, but he got the point. I moved out about a month later and bought a house.

Big_Grumpy
12-28-2010, 10:27
I rack the slide to chamber a round because I prefer to keep my shotgun stored unchambered. I don't give a rat's if someone hears it and runs, or hears it and tries to pinpoint me. The point is my weapon is loaded and ready.

I'd pray that someone who unlawfully enters my house would hear it and run to avoid trouble, but I'm certainly not relying on it. I figure chances are if someone's stupid enough to break in, then they're stupid enough to stick around no matter what they hear.

David Armstrong
12-28-2010, 11:52
Just keep watching those stupid movies people.
For the gentleman that said:

This is a very bad decision to announce anything to the person who may kill You within a second or two.
Not really. The concept is that by making the announcement you significantly reduce the chance for conflict, thus reducing the likelihood that anybody will be trying to kill anybody else. If it doesn't work, and you go into that <10% area you really don't lose that much. So it becomes a cost-benefit issue. And if you are doing this in a position where the BG may kill you in a second or two you are already way behind the curve, a little noise or lack of it won't change things.

David Armstrong
12-28-2010, 12:00
from bug:
I think racking the slide for the sake of intimidation is wrong headed.
If they know anything about shotguns they now have an idea that you may be intimidated and more than likely you only have a max of 8 shots before reload then maybe 4 on the side. Also pumps are known to short stroke when the person operating it is nervous or scarred.
It happens not often but it can.
I'm not seeing how any of that leads to the idea that racking the slide for intimidation is a problem. The BG still has exactly as much (or little) information as he already had, with the addition of he now knows that at the least yo have a pump shotgun with you. Why one would think that racking the pump indicates the shooter is intimidated seems quite contrary. LE, for example, rack their pumps when preparing for a fight. It is not because they are intimidated!
They also know the general direction you are from that noise.
Unless you have really worked on the art of the ninja, they are going to know your general direction anyway. Few folks are as quiet as they think they are.

CAcop
12-28-2010, 13:28
Having a loaded shotgun and not having to rack the action is not a bad thing. Blasting someone who has you laptop in their hands with their back turned to you might be a bad thing depending on your local laws.

Having a shotgun chamber empty (cruiser ready) and racking a round might scare someone away. It might give you position away but now you have a loaded shotgun.

I keep my long gun with loaded mags but empty chambers because that is what I do at work. The way I look at it if I need to use a gun in my house it will likely be a pistol since they are closest and easiest to get into action. The long guns are for when I have more time. I am not loosing much time by racking a round into the gun. Also in my area as long as they are unarmed and not advancing on me I have to give some sort of warning before blasting them. They will know where I am anyway when I tell them to get down on the ground or out of my house. Most burglars caught by homeowners in my area bolt just on the sight or sound of a homeowner. That's homeowners just being there when they weren't expecting them. If the racking of a shotgun does not scare them away it actually helps me if I have to use it later.

Imagine explaining it to the police this way, "I heard someone booting my door open. I went to my gun safe and pulled out my shotgun. Since the chamber was empty I chamber a round. I then heard/saw the guy walking/running towards my location. I told him to stop..."

Or this, "I heard someone booting my door open. I went to my safe and pulled out my gun. I then went to confront the suspect...."

Note how it gives you an extra layer of justification. How many cops or DAs have heard of crooks freaking out when they hear the sound of a shotgun racking? You think they might think, "Damn this guy confronted someone who pulled shotgun on them. They must have been crazy, foolish, or murderous."

The old saw of the racking of a shotgun comes from police having their shotguns in their car cruiser ready and jumping out at a gangfight, robbery in progress, etc and racking a round in and seeing people reacting favorably to the sound.

It does happen. Should you rely on it? No. Should you dismiss it? No.

bug
12-28-2010, 13:33
I'm not seeing how any of that leads to the idea that racking the slide for intimidation is a problem. The BG still has exactly as much (or little) information as he already had, with the addition of he now knows that at the least yo have a pump shotgun with you. Why one would think that racking the pump indicates the shooter is intimidated seems quite contrary. LE, for example, rack their pumps when preparing for a fight. It is not because they are intimidated!

Unless you have really worked on the art of the ninja, they are going to know your general direction anyway. Few folks are as quiet as they think they are.
It has to do that 5 % I mentioned they are the one that could be just high as a kite and not understand what that sound was, or it could be a person who knows you have some money,guns or some other thing that they want and don't give a crap how they get it.

Those kind of people may know about guns,tactics and things that may give you a suprise you don't need.
My thought on these kind of things is simple.

Assume the worst pray for the best.
My plan assumes 3 or 4 guys looking to do harm
now there is a 99.9% chance that will never happen I know that.
If you want to play the odds that is you choice.
That's why I love America lots of choice.

Bottom line if you come to my house and force your way in by violence.
You will leave, either on your own or in a bag.
That choice will be made by that person not me.
I would prefer you leave on your own.

And I am a level 3 mall ninja so am so quiet I can't hear myself.

In your own house I think most people can move well enough to have the advantage over a intruder.
If they have at least given it some consideration.

if

RMTactical
12-28-2010, 15:07
There's no guarantee they will hear the sound of the shotgun. I think announcing that you are armed and that the police are on the way are as good a deterrent as anything. But you need to be prepared for the worst even if its likely that they would flee at that point. You just don't know what kind of criminal just came into your home.

I posted about this on my blog as well www.minutemanreview.com

Dogue
12-28-2010, 15:14
There are enough stories of a homeowner warning an intruder that they have a gun and still being forced to use it because that is not a threat to some of the brazen thieves that are out there now. I sincerely hope that non of us ever need to defend ourselves, our home, or our family. And for those that give out warnings I hope the thieves leave, and are not fast moving and aggressive. By the time you react to a sound it's very possible that the intruder is already somewhere in your home and possibly as close as your bedroom door. I've heard of several recent break-ins where they just kick in the door and move quickly to get the jump on anyone that may be inside.

I'm of the belief that I don't give away any advantage I have and you're in my home illegally. There will be no slide rack, shotgun rack, or homeowner asking you to leave. There will likely be dogs barking and gunfire.

Glocker08
12-28-2010, 16:52
Why is it that racking the bolt on a pump is supposed to be so intimidating ? Doesn't a semi-auto make pretty much the same sound ? :headscratch:

1 old 0311
12-28-2010, 17:07
It worked for me a few years ago. A guy was trying to break into a apt i was living in. I saw him from the window and racked the slide. he ran so fast he dropped his crow bar.:rofl:

Bucky89
12-28-2010, 17:30
Many guys on these blogs think of HD as the final scene in "Scareface". They watch to many movies.

Most every time if someone breaks into your home it is because they think no body is there. When they realize that someone is, they get out of there because the messed up.

Yes, there are occupied home invasions that you hear about on the news and you hear about them because they are so rare. And yes, a single woman living alone is at a greater risk for this. However, most of these occupied invasion involve drugs or large amounts of cash. This just does not affect most all of us and thinking a group of armed thugs are coming to your house is unrealistic.

If you hear a sound and think someone is out there, call out " I am Armed and on the phone with the police" then rack that pump. If someone was there you will hear a door slam or window break as they dive out it.

Thinking you can just sneak up on someone and shoot them for being in your home is wrong headed. There are ways for a person to end up there and not be intending you harm. If you are that afraid to live alone then move back in with your parents so they can protect you.

Europe has more "hot" burglaries than the US by a substantial margin. I remember reading an article about it and they attributed it to gun ownership.

"Hot" referring to the owner being in the structure at the time

Aceman
12-28-2010, 18:27
This is a true event that took place back in 1984:

I just moved to Atlanta and was living in an apartment, I was working days and sometimes I would come home and find that the maintenance guy had come into my apartment to 'fix' something. I would call the office to complain and they would tell me they had a key to every apartment and they could come in anytime to check on problems with the water or whatever.

Then my shift changed and I started sleeping in the morning from about 8am to 3pm. I had one of those loft style units where the bedroom overlooked the living room and front door. One morning about 10am I heard a knock on the door followed by "maintenance", I rolled out of my bed, grabbed my 870, took aim at the front door and waited. A couple of minutes later the door opened and the guy strolled in, I shouted "What the hell are you doing in my apartment". He looked up and said "I am here to check your water heater". I told him the water heater was located outside the unit and to keep out of my apartment unless I called about a problem.

He never heard me rack the gun, it already had a chambered round, but he got the point. I moved out about a month later and bought a house.

This is a very interesting story...but I'm not quite sure I get the point.

Aceman
12-28-2010, 18:29
I rack the slide to chamber a round because I prefer to keep my shotgun stored unchambered. I don't give a rat's if someone hears it and runs, or hears it and tries to pinpoint me. The point is my weapon is loaded and ready.

Ditto - That rack is going to happen as the muzzle is heading to the doorway...evrything else happens AFTER that.

I agree - it ISN'T being racked as a warning. That is incidental.

Aceman
12-28-2010, 18:37
It has to do that 5 % I mentioned they are the one that could be just high as a kite and not understand what that sound was,

Irrelevent. As I mentioned (for me at least) the rack is incidental. It's a bonus for you if you hear it and leave. If not it doesn't matter. The weapon is hot, aimed and ready.

or it could be a person who knows you have some money,guns or some other thing that they want and don't give a crap how they get it.
In which case there will be a shootout. And it will commence fairly quickly with me having most of the advantage. Good luck!

Those kind of people may know about guns,tactics and things that may give you a suprise you don't need.
At which point you are dead. Silent or not. They know you are there, they are armed and ready, they have weapons modified to full auto, armor, NV, and friends covering.


My thought on these kind of things is simple.

Assume the worst pray for the best.
My plan assumes 3 or 4 guys looking to do harm
now there is a 99.9% chance that will never happen I know that.
If you want to play the odds that is you choice.
That's why I love America lots of choice.
Again - there is blindly playing the odds, and making an informed decision with contingencies in place.

Aceman
12-28-2010, 18:41
I'm of the belief that I don't give away any advantage I have and you're in my home illegally. There will be no slide rack, shotgun rack, or homeowner asking you to leave. There will likely be dogs barking and gunfire.

And while I generally agree - and that is your choice...Fortunately for you you live in FL. Other states are not as forgiving.

I just think there are a lot of trigger happy fools out there who are either just looking for the opportunity to "off some scum" who are much more likely to get shot or shoot an innocent person or shoot a bad guy and end up in jail anyway.

The posts are often disturbing.

bug
12-28-2010, 19:36
Irrelevent. As I mentioned (for me at least) the rack is incidental. It's a bonus for you if you hear it and leave. If not it doesn't matter. The weapon is hot, aimed and ready.


In which case there will be a shootout. And it will commence fairly quickly with me having most of the advantage. Good luck!


At which point you are dead. Silent or not. They know you are there, they are armed and ready, they have weapons modified to full auto, armor, NV, and friends covering.


My thought on these kind of things is simple.


Again - there is blindly playing the odds, and making an informed decision with contingencies in place.

There seems to no middle man here.

Just because they may be knowledgeable about guns/tactics does not make them SPEC OPS so your right if seal team 6 decides to invade your home your toast!

But what if this happens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw-0nfVC2Rk&feature=related
This kind of crap is happening more and will most likely get worse in the future

Look what I said is not Irrelevant I encourage people to do what works for them.
If I had a shotgun for the house i would have one in the chamber and the tube full. YMMV
it would also be a semi auto. maybe A saiga with a 20rd drum, but as it is I live in the sticks so i keep a rifle handy.

I want them to leave so I will verbalize that to them if I think it will work.
If they don't then obviously they have bad intension's, In that case Its a GUN fight not a fair Fight.

saying that me or anyone else on this board is trigger Happy because I feel my tactics will work better for me than yours is silly.

I have done everything in my power to avoid such contact. ie: I moved to a nice community we have good police even though they are spread out.
the people around me I can trust. and so on.
If your plan involves a 8 shot rem with an empty chamber with a hand gun as back up, more power to you.

To me this is the same argument as those who carry there CCW with a empty chamber! why?? If something goes south it may happen so fast you wont know what hit you.

I pray that you or I never have to get into a gun fight! or hurt any one like that.
I have had enough guns pointed at me to know I don't like it, and i would like it much more if they would just go away.

But life does not go how you want it too i just does what it wants.

Deaf Smith
12-28-2010, 21:06
I personally know of a case where racking the slide of a shotgun (and it was empty actually) got to trespassers to freeze in their steps, and then after the owner said a few choice words, they turned around and left.

All this was in the darkness so the intruders didn't see the gun itself.

Does that mean it will work 100 percent of the time? No. Does it work though often? I bet it does.

Just as seeing five cops level guns at you tend to get your attention, so does the racking of a shotgun.

Deaf

LilWolfess
12-28-2010, 21:35
Wow. Look at all this childlike bickering.

Here's a post from a small woman's (my) perspective.

I moved into a fairly craphole apartment this summer. I knew there was a little suspicious action going on, but I figured it was just the stupid sort of stuff like pot dealing and a party or two. The landlord assured me that it was a very quiet place and that everyone there was clean and decent and that I wouldn't be bothered in the least.

The first mistake I made was to simply trust the word of my partner in crime (I stayed in the place for the summer, so when he came back for school, he'd have a sure cheap place to live. I didn't even look at the place before signing (knew the landlord sorta, had also viewed apartments in the same building etc.).

Second mistake was not just calling the whole thing off when my gut instinct said the place was bad.

On the second day of being there I got a frantic knock on the door at about 9:45pm. I wasn't expecting anyone, so I just yelled through the paper thin door, "WHO IS IT??"

"It's Ramiro!!"

I don't know any Ramiros.

"Ah...What do you want?"

"I am lookin' for Jose."

I don't know anybody by that name either, and it's for sure not the guy who used to live there, since I learned that his name was Mike.

"No one's here. I just moved in."

"oh...ok"

I started going back to unpacking and cleaning my Glock, but before I'd even taken two steps, there was more pounding on the door. I was getting kinda frustrated and a little nervous, because a normal person would've just left.

"Who is it!?!"

"Ramiro again."

"What do you want!?"

"Can I come in??"

Can I come in?? This had the effect of making the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I went immediately to my bedroom, and picked up my 870, and began loading it as quickly as I could. As I was doing this, the Mr. Ramiro jiggled the door handle.

In reply, while I frantically looked around for my phone, I yelled:

"NO! Go away!!"

"It's okay B----, I just want to look around."

Look around?! Really!?! I didn't really think that was what he wanted, and I still couldn't find where I'd left my cellphone. I was also thinking of just how weak and thin the door was. I could've easily kicked through it myself, and the latch was a joke (not even a deadbolt lock). The guy finally started trying the door pretty forcefully.

I put a shell in the chamber and pointed my shotgun at the door, which I figured was going to get yanked open at any second.

All I heard was "Oh----sorry!" and the sound of something heavy crashing down the stairs. (I later had a really long giggle over the falling down the stairs bit after the adrenaline had worn off).

I reported the event. From my perspective, very very few people that are about to cause trouble will listen to the angry shouts of a small woman. This doesn't mean that you should EVER trust that telltale sound of a pump action to scare garbage people away, but that noise seems to speak a lot louder than I do.

Don't trust it to work, even if it does most of the time.

E-Money
12-28-2010, 23:08
I started going back to unpacking and cleaning my Glock....[/B]

Ummm.............. huh?

FireForged
12-28-2010, 23:42
I am of the mind that if a bad guy is willing to enter a occupied dwelling, he is probably mentally willing and prepared to deal with resistance. The old saying about the sound of a racking shotgun is just that, an old saying. I put it into the catagory with "its hot enough to fry an egg or "if you cant find em- grind em.

LilWolfess
12-28-2010, 23:44
Ummm.............. huh?

I had started cleaning my Glock, and then had to do some unpacking to find some of my cleaning supplies (q-tips).

babarracing
12-28-2010, 23:57
God Bless the O.P. this is utter wives tale nonsense. It is just as effective as making a Tuff guy face and spouting some tuff talk! Just as good a chance of digging your hole deeper. It is not reasonable thinking; to buy an SD weapon with no absolute mindset to use it when ya point it at something it should be something you intend to shoot. Period.:wow:

LilWolfess
12-29-2010, 00:49
God Bless the O.P. this is utter wives tale nonsense. It is just as effective as making a Tuff guy face and spouting some tuff talk! Just as good a chance of digging your hole deeper. It is not reasonable thinking; to buy an SD weapon with no absolute mindset to use it when ya point it at something it should be something you intend to shoot. Period.:wow:

If this is a wives' tale, why did the guy run away from my door instead of forcing it open?

Not to mention, why did he run away without taking care to watch his step on the stairwell?

I agree with you in the sense that you shouldn't operate the pump on a shotgun just for the sake of trying to make a person scared enough to run away because of that "sound." But to say that the sound has no effect is just as foolish. If that sound showed no effect on anyone, and was a wives' tale just as you said, I would've probably ended up shooting the man trying to come in my home unwelcomed.

Dogue
12-29-2010, 09:06
Do the police carry guns? Does everyone know that the police carry guns? Do police get shot at by bad guys even though they know the police carry guns and will shoot back?

A drunk idiot or some teenagers breaking in might come to their senses if the threat of being shot is presented, but a career criminal intent on doing you harm to get what he wants does not think like a rational person.

David Armstrong
12-29-2010, 11:07
It has to do that 5 % I mentioned they are the one that could be just high as a kite and not understand what that sound was, or it could be a person who knows you have some money,guns or some other thing that they want and don't give a crap how they get it.
Still can't see any problem. First, ignoring something that works 95% of the time in favor of the 5% is a bit questionable to start with, but even so if you do rack you haven't lost anything in the 5% situations.
Those kind of people may know about guns,tactics and things that may give you a suprise you don't need.
Again, what would that be? The BG now knows you have a shotgun. He doesn't know anything beyond that. He doesn't know how many rounds you have, what other guns you have, your skill, or anything else.
My thought on these kind of things is simple.
Assume the worst pray for the best.
My plan assumes 3 or 4 guys looking to do harm
now there is a 99.9% chance that will never happen I know that.
If you want to play the odds that is you choice.
That's why I love America lots of choice.
Yes, but some choices tend to increase the potential for problems while some tend to decrease the potential for problems. In other words, not all choices offer the same results. And again, racking the shotgun (or any gun) doesn't change the scenario at all from a defensive position. This really is one of those situations where the potential gain is quite large and the potential loss is virtually nonexistent.
Bottom line if you come to my house and force your way in by violence.
You will leave, either on your own or in a bag.
That choice will be made by that person not me.
I would prefer you leave on your own.
And would yo think they are more likely to choose to leave if they know somebody has a firearm and is waitign for them, or if they do not?
In your own house I think most people can move well enough to have the advantage over a intruder.
If they have at least given it some consideration.
You might be surprised how small that advantage is, especially depending on the tactics one chooses.

But what if this happens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw-0n...eature=related
This kind of crap is happening more and will most likely get worse in the future
Again, how would pumping the shotgun have changed anything there?

David Armstrong
12-29-2010, 11:16
There are enough stories of a homeowner warning an intruder that they have a gun and still being forced to use it because that is not a threat to some of the brazen thieves that are out there now.
For every BG that will continue burglarizing a house with an awake, armed owner there are dozens who will NOT continue.
I sincerely hope that non of us ever need to defend ourselves, our home, or our family. And for those that give out warnings I hope the thieves leave, and are not fast moving and aggressive. By the time you react to a sound it's very possible that the intruder is already somewhere in your home and possibly as close as your bedroom door. I've heard of several recent break-ins where they just kick in the door and move quickly to get the jump on anyone that may be inside.
Again, I fail to see how racking or not racking the pump on the gun changes any of that.
I'm of the belief that I don't give away any advantage I have and you're in my home illegally. There will be no slide rack, shotgun rack, or homeowner asking you to leave. There will likely be dogs barking and gunfire.
And I think I would suggest that NOT warning the intruder (under most conditions) is giving away an advantage, as you are actually increasing the danger and the potential for loss to you and yours. Shooting someone rarely makes your life easier, it more often starts a rather expensive and time-consuming process that most folks who have actually been through it suggest everyone should avoid whenever possible.

David Armstrong
12-29-2010, 11:19
Why is it that racking the bolt on a pump is supposed to be so intimidating ? Doesn't a semi-auto make pretty much the same sound ? :headscratch:
Not really, but your point is still valid. All notifications, be they racking the slide on a handgun, pumping a shotgun, or just speaking loudly serve to accomplish the goal.

Dogue
12-29-2010, 11:55
Again, I fail to see how racking or not racking the pump on the gun changes any of that.

It's my belief that you've now added another step you have to take in order to defend yourself. Waking from a dead sleep you wake up, grab gun, chamber a round then aim...every second may count here. If by the time your eyes focus you now see someone standing just feet away from you do you want to rack your shotgun?

I would not carry a concealed weapon without a chambered round as I would not keep a home defense weapon in that state either.

ennis
12-29-2010, 12:11
:deadhorse::deadhorse:

David Armstrong
12-29-2010, 13:05
It's my belief that you've now added another step you have to take in order to defend yourself.
What added step? You pick up the gun and as you pick it up you rack it. Sure, it's an extra step, but EVERYTHING other than always carrying the gun around fully loaded with the safety off and the gun to your shoulder with your finger on the trigger adds another step.
Waking from a dead sleep you wake up, grab gun, chamber a round then aim...every second may count here. If by the time your eyes focus you now see someone standing just feet away from you do you want to rack your shotgun?
If the person is so close you don't have time to run the action they are too close for you to use the gun in the first place. If you don't have time for that, the problem is not with having a round in the chamber or not.
I would not carry a concealed weapon without a chambered round as I would not keep a home defense weapon in that state either.
About all I can say is that obviously some folks around here really need some good force-on-force training so they can develop a more realistic understanding of how things like this work.:faint:

dorkweed
12-29-2010, 14:18
The sound of a shotgun racking is very intimidating. It's unmistakeable and might change the mind of your run of the mill smash and grab type burglars. The hardened criminals maybe not. if you don't have it loaded and if you're just relying on the sound of it racking to deter a burglar you're sadly mistaken.




I'm not proud to admit this; but here goes. Last week I went pheasant hunting with a couple friends. One of brought along a Remington 870.................unbeknownst to me. When the time came and we were preparing to enter the field, he racked the action on his 870 to chamber a round, and I honesty pooped myself. Not just a little nugget either..............big time load. Never before have I heard such a terrifying and intimidating sound.:tongueout::tongueout:

That's said joking of course!!!! Yeah, if you're trying to be "SilentMan" and burglarize a house, and hear that sound.............yeah, the old sphincter might tighten up instantly or it might open fully!!:rofl::rofl:

PeaceKeeper
12-29-2010, 15:58
This is a very interesting story...but I'm not quite sure I get the point.

Sound or no sound, a shotgun is just a shotgun and how a person responds to the sight or sound of one chambering a round is how they react. If a person hears you rack a round into the chamber and flees he probably would have left if he had just seen you holding one. If he is going to engage you it would not matter if he heard you chamber a round or not. To think that the sound of chambering a round will stop a bad person is a bad thought.

I have only used a shotgun three times in my life where I actually was ready to fire if needed, each of those times ended without a shot fired.

Aceman
12-29-2010, 18:32
But what if this happens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw-0nfVC2Rk&feature=related
This kind of crap is happening more and will most likely get worse in the future


What - you mean what if I'm a drug dealer watching my closed circuit TV/Monitor and a rival drug gang shows up?

I'd say a bunch of them or me would have been dead. Likely them since I was watching it happen on video...and I probably had a loaded AK within reach. :rofl:

bug
12-30-2010, 21:19
What - you mean what if I'm a drug dealer watching my closed circuit TV/Monitor and a rival drug gang shows up?

I'd say a bunch of them or me would have been dead. Likely them since I was watching it happen on video...and I probably had a loaded AK within reach. :rofl:

I did not know the back story behind video interesting.

I just typed in shootouts on youtube and came across that one for my example:
4 guys might know a bit about guns might have had a plan.
But by no means are they seal team 6.

Thats all

thanks for the info though good to know.

bug
12-30-2010, 21:43
Still can't see any problem. First, ignoring something that works 95% of the time in favor of the 5% is a bit questionable to start with, but even so if you do rack you haven't lost anything in the 5% situations.

Again, what would that be? The BG now knows you have a shotgun. He doesn't know anything beyond that. He doesn't know how many rounds you have, what other guns you have, your skill, or anything else.
My thought on these kind of things is simple.

Yes, but some choices tend to increase the potential for problems while some tend to decrease the potential for problems. In other words, not all choices offer the same results. And again, racking the shotgun (or any gun) doesn't change the scenario at all from a defensive position. This really is one of those situations where the potential gain is quite large and the potential loss is virtually nonexistent.

And would yo think they are more likely to choose to leave if they know somebody has a firearm and is waitign for them, or if they do not?

You might be surprised how small that advantage is, especially depending on the tactics one chooses.


Again, how would pumping the shotgun have changed anything there?

You like the quote thing don't ya.

you seem to leave the parts out you don't like though

I have said I think twice in this thread that I believe in giving a warning.
And would do so if I believed it would help.

As well we all seem to agree it would in most cases.

however I would have a fully loaded gun in hand with the safety off if so equipped when I made my announcement.

"I have called tho police they are on there way.LEAVE NOW.

For 95%
Any noise would work
BOO
hello
shotgun sound
whatever
they hear you there gone.

Force on force training I have done some not a lot
If you are talking about the distance that a human can cover in average gunfight distance.
yes I am aware most can not draw and fire before a fast person can cover that ground. 7yrds?
Is that what you are referring too?
That is why I keep quiet till I am ready then show my hand If you have a small house you are right your advantage is smaller.

About the video you are saying that if you have a lets moss 590 that holds 8+1
And I have it ready with 9 rounds take safety off ready to go in the little span of time.

And you have 8 in the tube none in the chamber so you have to rack take safety off put one in tube in the same span of time.

I have no advantage?

bug
12-30-2010, 21:49
Wow. Look at all this childlike bickering.

Here's a post from a small woman's (my) perspective.

I moved into a fairly craphole apartment this summer. I knew there was a little suspicious action going on, but I figured it was just the stupid sort of stuff like pot dealing and a party or two. The landlord assured me that it was a very quiet place and that everyone there was clean and decent and that I wouldn't be bothered in the least.

The first mistake I made was to simply trust the word of my partner in crime (I stayed in the place for the summer, so when he came back for school, he'd have a sure cheap place to live. I didn't even look at the place before signing (knew the landlord sorta, had also viewed apartments in the same building etc.).

Second mistake was not just calling the whole thing off when my gut instinct said the place was bad.

On the second day of being there I got a frantic knock on the door at about 9:45pm. I wasn't expecting anyone, so I just yelled through the paper thin door, "WHO IS IT??"

"It's Ramiro!!"

I don't know any Ramiros.

"Ah...What do you want?"

"I am lookin' for Jose."

I don't know anybody by that name either, and it's for sure not the guy who used to live there, since I learned that his name was Mike.

"No one's here. I just moved in."

"oh...ok"

I started going back to unpacking and cleaning my Glock, but before I'd even taken two steps, there was more pounding on the door. I was getting kinda frustrated and a little nervous, because a normal person would've just left.

"Who is it!?!"

"Ramiro again."

"What do you want!?"

"Can I come in??"

Can I come in?? This had the effect of making the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I went immediately to my bedroom, and picked up my 870, and began loading it as quickly as I could. As I was doing this, the Mr. Ramiro jiggled the door handle.

In reply, while I frantically looked around for my phone, I yelled:

"NO! Go away!!"

"It's okay B----, I just want to look around."

Look around?! Really!?! I didn't really think that was what he wanted, and I still couldn't find where I'd left my cellphone. I was also thinking of just how weak and thin the door was. I could've easily kicked through it myself, and the latch was a joke (not even a deadbolt lock). The guy finally started trying the door pretty forcefully.

I put a shell in the chamber and pointed my shotgun at the door, which I figured was going to get yanked open at any second.

All I heard was "Oh----sorry!" and the sound of something heavy crashing down the stairs. (I later had a really long giggle over the falling down the stairs bit after the adrenaline had worn off).

I reported the event. From my perspective, very very few people that are about to cause trouble will listen to the angry shouts of a small woman. This doesn't mean that you should EVER trust that telltale sound of a pump action to scare garbage people away, but that noise seems to speak a lot louder than I do.

Don't trust it to work, even if it does most of the time.

I do not believe we are bickering

Many of us on here like to talk things out

I have seen many good post form people like David Armstrong, Aceman

If you talk things out you can learn allot I enjoy talking to people who don't think like me it's a good way to learn.

If everyone thought the same the world would be dull.

And I am glad your situation work out it sounds as if it could have went south in a hurry!

David Armstrong
01-01-2011, 14:21
You like the quote thing don't ya.
Yes. The quote thing allows folks to put things into context and remain focused.
you seem to leave the parts out you don't like though
No, I tend to quote the parts that I think need commenting on. Whether I like them or not is irrelevant to me.
I have said I think twice in this thread that I believe in giving a warning.
And would do so if I believed it would help.
I and I'm still waiting for an example of where it would not help or where it would hurt the situation.
About the video you are saying that if you have a lets moss 590 that holds 8+1
And I have it ready with 9 rounds take safety off ready to go in the little span of time.
And you have 8 in the tube none in the chamber so you have to rack take safety off put one in tube in the same span of time.
I have no advantage?
No, I said it does not significantly change the situation from a defensive position, and if there is any advantage is is pretty small. It may be offset by other disadvantages. Why are you trying to take the safety off of a gun that has the chamber empty? No need to have the safety on. And I'm going to bring that shotgun up and charge it in the same time span you are going to bring the shotgun up and take the safety off. If I have time to put another round in at that time, cool, if not, put one in at a later time if needed. So I'm not sure what advantage there is.

stolivar
01-01-2011, 15:12
Most insurance has a deductible, a high one anymore. Mine is at 1%. That means $1750 out of my pocket right off the bat...

don't make me laugh when you say it can be replaced with insurance:rofl:


steve

bug
01-01-2011, 15:21
Yes. The quote thing allows folks to put things into context and remain focused.

No, I tend to quote the parts that I think need commenting on. Whether I like them or not is irrelevant to me.

I and I'm still waiting for an example of where it would not help or where it would hurt the situation.

No, I said it does not significantly change the situation from a defensive position, and if there is any advantage is is pretty small. It may be offset by other disadvantages. Why are you trying to take the safety off of a gun that has the chamber empty? No need to have the safety on. And I'm going to bring that shotgun up and charge it in the same time span you are going to bring the shotgun up and take the safety off. If I have time to put another round in at that time, cool, if not, put one in at a later time if needed. So I'm not sure what advantage there is.

I agree it gives context when you use all of it, not just the parts of ones you think will help and not hurt the points you are making.

Maybe I am jelous I cannot multi quote like that. :supergrin:
never have figured it out.


You are right about the safety no need to have it on with empty chamber

I think the 4 guys rushing your house is a good example of where having gun loaded all the way would be an advantage.
Do you think it at all possible that you may forget to rack a round in chamber under stress?

To be fair without practice and working on Muscle memory you may just as easily forget the safety.

And as i said if I was worried about such an event I would have a shotgun in semi auto maybe with a nice 20 round drum and that would be a major advantage, if both people have the same skill level.

Or in my case I have a rifle.
I love shotguns i think they are one of the best one shot fight ender.

and i never meant that a warning will hurt just that racking a shotgun makes less sense to me than just having it loaded and giving a verbal warning.

I mean what if we take the shotgun thing out of it! What if you just have a Glock 17 and same situation we have been talking about happens.
Would you rack slide on the 17 in hopes of some intimidation? or just have it loaded and give them a firm verbal warning?

I understand the what you and all the others are saying I do.

But I work at a shop where I here this stuff all the time.
most of the time its someone who trains once a year with a box of shells and a 6 pack.

If anyone is counting on this to work that is a mistake, if it does work great! if not you better damn well have a plan B.

So for me I like to have my weapon as close to ready as I can, and i depend on how I talk to get my point across.

denn1911
01-01-2011, 17:07
Good points already stated. I hope that those who believe the "racking of the shotgun's action" will deter an intruder become better educated. What will they do when a violent intruder does not turn and run away in sheer terror? Training and proper education will help home owners have a well thought out plan and a secondary (or third) plan.

PATRICE
01-01-2011, 17:59
.....

David Armstrong
01-02-2011, 14:52
Maybe I am jelous I cannot multi quote like that.
never have figured it out.
two ways. You can either cut and paste each segment and then use the little "word ballon" icon on the reply box or you can quote the entire text and then insert html at each point you want to break out. Shoot me a PM and I'll talk you through it.
I think the 4 guys rushing your house is a good example of where having gun loaded all the way would be an advantage.
Do you think it at all possible that you may forget to rack a round in chamber under stress?
To be fair without practice and working on Muscle memory you may just as easily forget the safety.
Don't see the advantage. If you are so hard-pressed that you cannot get a moment to shove spare ammo in the gun it is doubtful that having an extra round or so will matter. And my experience is that far more people forget to hit the safety than forget to rack the shotgun.
I mean what if we take the shotgun thing out of it! What if you just have a Glock 17 and same situation we have been talking about happens.
Would you rack slide on the 17 in hopes of some intimidation? or just have it loaded and give them a firm verbal warning?
Either one. If I don't have the chamber loaded it is not a big deal, you just chamber the round as you you pick the gun up. To me none of it really matters, to me the main issue is to try to reduce the loss of resources. Anything that helps to get the BG to go somewhere else does that, be it racking, yelling, threatening, etc.
So for me I like to have my weapon as close to ready as I can, and i depend on how I talk to get my point across.
That is fine for you. For others, however, keeping the shotgun loaded to the hilt for SD is not so fine. It is a balance of cost versus benefit, and many factors come into play.

David Armstrong
01-02-2011, 14:55
Hhmmm...Well, I was always led to believe that if I was somewhere I wasn't supposed to be, and I heard a distinctive noise such as the topic under discussion---I was told that it would be prudent to commence firing in the direction of said sound.--Patrice :whistling:
Do you and the folks giving this advice often break in to other peoples houses in order to commit crimes?:dunno:

bug
01-02-2011, 15:20
two ways. You can either cut and paste each segment and then use the little "word ballon" icon on the reply box or you can quote the entire text and then insert html at each point you want to break out. Shoot me a PM and I'll talk you through it.

Don't see the advantage. If you are so hard-pressed that you cannot get a moment to shove spare ammo in the gun it is doubtful that having an extra round or so will matter. And my experience is that far more people forget to hit the safety than forget to rack the shotgun.

Either one. If I don't have the chamber loaded it is not a big deal, you just chamber the round as you you pick the gun up. To me none of it really matters, to me the main issue is to try to reduce the loss of resources. Anything that helps to get the BG to go somewhere else does that, be it racking, yelling, threatening, etc.

That is fine for you. For others, however, keeping the shotgun loaded to the hilt for SD is not so fine. It is a balance of cost versus benefit, and many factors come into play.

I read your blog and I more clearly understand your stance now.

You are right some should just have the chamber empty there seems to be a %s of gun owners who don't take this very seriously.

I work part time at a gun shop and have had my fair share of folks point there loaded pistol at me not realizing what they have done.

I always let them know my displeasure with it!!

One thing I always tell folks is to get yourself a 7 gal bucket and fill it full of sand and maybe get a nice thick phone book. unload and load over that.

Yes the safety seems to be the downfall of many I practice the same things over and over again in hope of building that muscle memory.

CharlestonG26
01-02-2011, 15:31
Based on what I've read on internet forums...the ideal home security system consists of an audio tape that combines:
- barking dogs
- a pump shortgun being racked
- along with a manly man voice shouting..."hey...I'm armed and dangerous"

A generous spreading of carpet tacks in front of all windows and doors completes the package...hmmm....maybe that's for sailboats in pirate areas???

1 old 0311
01-02-2011, 16:02
Based on what I've read on internet forums...the ideal home security system consists of an audio tape that combines:
- barking dogs
- a pump shortgun being racked
- along with a manly man voice shouting..."hey...I'm armed and dangerous"






Correction " I'm armed, dangerous, horney, gay, AND have AIDS.":rofl::rofl:

Aceman
01-02-2011, 17:04
For 95%
Any noise would work
BOO
hello
shotgun sound
whatever
they hear you there gone.


I agree - as for the remaining 5%, as you said; You should be waiting for them with a 100% ready to go weapon, finger on trigger. They can't close 10 ft in the time it takes to pull the trigger. Coming at me is a threat period if I'm in that condition - announcement or no.

As I said - I find it very disturbing the group that seems to WANT to turn that 95% into the 5% by their actions.

Syclone538
01-04-2011, 14:19
...
Imagine explaining it to the police this way,
...

That's up to your lawyer.

Why anyone would say anything to the police when there is a chance of anything more then a traffic citation is beyond me.

-gunut-
01-04-2011, 15:36
I think it has happened many times in the past and will continue to happen in the future. Most criminals don't want to shoot it out to the death. There is a reason why having a firearm present will deter most crimes. Many of people have been scared off by the sound of a shotgun. With that said, I keep mine with a round in the chamber.

I would think part of this discussion has to include the voices of law enforcement. Normally a patrol shotgun is caried without one in the chamber. If an officer pulls up on someone and deploys a shotgun, it is going to make more sound than pulling a pistol. I know I would be intimidated by the presence (audible or otherwise) of a shotgun.

unit1069
01-04-2011, 20:35
Normally a patrol shotgun is caried without one in the chamber.

And I'm sure that's for safety's sake. Safety is also a priority for me and I'm sure I have a whole lot less training than a professional LEO.

It's just a personal choice; you're prepared for an immediate response or you have to perform a single action before you're prepared to respond. If I'm not in immediate danger I'm opting for safety first.

David Armstrong
01-05-2011, 11:57
And I'm sure that's for safety's sake. Safety is also a priority for me and I'm sure I have a whole lot less training than a professional LEO.

It's just a personal choice; you're prepared for an immediate response or you have to perform a single action before you're prepared to respond. If I'm not in immediate danger I'm opting for safety first.

Good point. There are a lot of shotguns (and other guns) out there that are not drop safe, so leaving them chambered is not a particularly safe method of storage.

themighty9mm
01-05-2011, 12:38
Not everybody and this includes home invaders know guns or know the sound of guns. Also most houses arnt exactly a studio apartment. Walls deflect sound to a extent. If you are in your bdrm and they are in your living room or garage or basement may be a decent chance they dont hear it all.I'd suggest learn how to be effective with your gun instead of hoping for a just a sound

ssgrock3
01-05-2011, 21:03
I only want the bad person in front of my shotgun to see a bright flash and hear a loud boom and then maybe, just maybe hear me rack it...

anything less than this gives away your position. Good post above.

MacG22
01-05-2011, 21:06
I'm with David Armstrong on this one.

1. I don't believe for a moment that there is any magical power to a shotgun rack. It's essentially saying "I am armed" in a way that leaves no room for them to think you're bluffing. There are times when that warning alone is enough to help. But it's not magical. Effective warnings, however--of every sort--, have been shown to be enough in a meaningful number of encounters.

2. But even if it's not enough, how on earth can it hurt? If you're going to speak up and provide a warning ANYWAY, then you're going to give away your position. And you always run the risk that they'll think you are bluffing. Drunk/drug altered persons tend to have false senses of aggression and bravery. Why not meet the issue head on right away?

If you want to stay quiet, then do. Nothing says you MUST rack your shotgun. Just that you can if you want to.

3. An effective warning also helps to know exactly what/who you are dealing with. If you give them a clear warning, they know you are armed, and you have communicated it effectively and they STILL stay, you know you either have an unwell person (mentally or chemically/drugged) or a human predator. Either way, you know you're not just dealing with a kid that wanted to smash and grab when no one was in.

Either way, if you intended to provide a warning, you loose nothing with the shotgun rack and perhaps gained something by making your warning crystal clear.

Aceman
01-06-2011, 07:40
Again - I don't think anybody here REALLY believes that the mere rack is an actual tool to be used...I have not seen anyone who has said other than "The sound is incidental, and it could be effective"

But no one is actively racking with the pure intent or expectation that it is sufficient by itself.

ssgrock3
01-06-2011, 11:46
actually I think they are. Hoping at least that after they rack, then bad guy splits. From the tone of many many internet forums and ftf conversations, there are too many people who consider that a first step to defense.

I think we all need to be as mentally prepared as humanly possible for "stopping the intruder" portion of this equation.

I was/am and old 11b infantrymen, and it was drilled into us that silence is key to a surprise attack. If a guy is armed, he will know where I am by the muzzle flash, not the sound of my weapon...other than a distinctive Boom. Can't stress this enough. Do not give a bad guy in your home any advantages. He/she is not in there for any other reason that to do harm or take something from you...possessions, or you or your family.

If it reaches the point that you are aware and armed, you are already past the early stages of self defense.

I don't think you have to warn when the threat is already in your home.

David Armstrong
01-06-2011, 13:29
actually I think they are. Hoping at least that after they rack, then bad guy splits. From the tone of many many internet forums and ftf conversations, there are too many people who consider that a first step to defense.
I would suggest it is a good first step. It is a step that has a fairly high probability of ending the problem without much downside and a large upside.
I think we all need to be as mentally prepared as humanly possible for "stopping the intruder" portion of this equation.
One can be prepared to stop the home intruder just as well if one includes a warning of some type as if they do not.
I was/am and old 11b infantrymen, and it was drilled into us that silence is key to a surprise attack.
What makes good tactics for combat zones does not alwys make good tactics for non-combat. Unless things have changed since I was in, you were also taught that when on guard duty you always challenged (Halt! Who goes there?) instead of just shooting without any warning.
If a guy is armed, he will know where I am by the muzzle flash, not the sound of my weapon...other than a distinctive Boom. Can't stress this enough. Do not give a bad guy in your home any advantages.
How does warning the BG to leave give up any advantages? You still have your gun, you still have (or should have) the dominant position in a defensive posture, and so on.
He/she is not in there for any other reason that to do harm or take something from you...possessions, or you or your family.
So why would you want to do stuff to keep him around instead of stuff to encourage him to go away?
If it reaches the point that you are aware and armed, you are already past the early stages of self defense.
I don't think you have to warn when the threat is already in your home.
There are lots of things you don't have to do that are still good ideas. And that is the essence of it, to me. Giving a warning costs nothing, and has a lot of potential for gain. Starting a bunch of bullets flying around in a house where one's family is located should be a last choice, not a first choice.

ssgrock3
01-06-2011, 15:33
all good points.

I still differ in opinion, that a person needs to be mentally prepared for the what after I shuck a shell into this gun. I see and hear of folks that think I will do this and the gun will run away, then are not prepared for whats next.


your point is well taken. I hope the bad guy leaves if you warn them, but if they start shooting you no longer have the advantage of knowing where they are and them not you.

MacG22
01-06-2011, 23:37
The magpul guys had an interesting take on this. They suggested that the racking is a posturing behavior. Some will want to, some won't. Personally, they don't believe in posturing as a necessary step in a self defense situation. They said they don't use a pump with hopes to scare anyone, they use a pump to shoot someone.

But they also left it up to the student and suggested that posturing may play some role in their self defense behaviors, just be consistant in what you do and why you do it.

I'm simply passing the info along.

cdog533
01-07-2011, 02:26
This racking thing is dumb.

By racking a shotgun LOUDLY, you are giving up lots of info and giving the tango a giant tactical advantage.
- He knows you are armed
- He knows your position
- He knows you have a pump shotgun

It's like cocking a hammer on your revolver to show you mean business. It's crappy tactics and bad gun handling.

You ideally don't want him to know those things. If you are producing a shotgun in hopes of deterrence, then pointing the gun should work wonders without the pump sound. Following that, for maximum deterrence (facing a threat) fire it into his chest. He should break off his aggression at that point.

I was always taught that loud sounds don't do anything to scare people or even keep their heads down. It's well-aimed lead that does that. That means don't try to scare someone by outputting noise in their general direction...you need to actually hit them.

I cringe thinking of some dude that takes the old gun shop commando advice of 'just pump yer slide and they'll run fer it!' and gets shot while stomping into his living room at 2AM and promptly working his action in the face of 3 gangbangers. Bad tactics. He should be in his bedroom, facing the door, with a round in the chamber, staying QUIET.

The 'racking will scare them off' scattergun advice is usually followed by the 'heck you dont even need to aim it' advice.

aippi
01-07-2011, 09:37
So all you Ninjas are just going to sneak out and shoot a dark shape because is it in your house. You must intend that as you don't want to rack or give your position away with a light. Why do you even use a shotgun. You should simply sneak out of bed, put your cammo on and cammo paint your face ( or is that clown paint) and get your sniper rifle and see if you can pick them off.

And yes, at close quarters I don't use sights, I point fire. And if you are ever it this area of Michigan and have a few grand on you, stop by and we can throw it in a pot and have a little shooting match with the 12ga for speed and accuracy at close range. Leave your Ninja stuff at home as these boys up here will laugh you off the range.

Glockdude1
01-07-2011, 10:58
What would this one sound like?

http://www.kushnapup.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/photo2.jpg

:cool:

Bill G
01-07-2011, 11:04
So all you Ninjas are just going to sneak out and shoot a dark shape because is it in your house. You must intend that as you don't want to rack or give your position away with a light. Why do you even use a shotgun. You should simply sneak out of bed, put your cammo on and cammo paint your face ( or is that clown paint) and get your sniper rifle and see if you can pick them off.

And yes, at close quarters I don't use sights, I point fire. And if you are ever it this area of Michigan and have a few grand on you, stop by and we can throw it in a pot and have a little shooting match with the 12ga for speed and accuracy at close range. Leave your Ninja stuff at home as these boys up here will laugh you off the range.


Give them Hell J.D. ... There is a lot of good and miss information on these forums. I just sit back and take it all in He He!!!

Take Care Friend,:supergrin:
Bill G

MacG22
01-07-2011, 11:22
So all you Ninjas are just going to sneak out and shoot a dark shape because is it in your house. You must intend that as you don't want to rack or give your position away with a light. Why do you even use a shotgun. You should simply sneak out of bed, put your cammo on and cammo paint your face ( or is that clown paint) and get your sniper rifle and see if you can pick them off.

And yes, at close quarters I don't use sights, I point fire. And if you are ever it this area of Michigan and have a few grand on you, stop by and we can throw it in a pot and have a little shooting match with the 12ga for speed and accuracy at close range. Leave your Ninja stuff at home as these boys up here will laugh you off the range.

Aippi,

While I generally agree with you on most things, not this (at least in how presented).

Surely you can see that there are two very well developed schools of training on this, both taught by very reputable and good sources, who suggest both schools.

Trying to us "mall ninja" and inadvertently shooting dark forms without IDing is not what anyone has advocated. And further, it's just an attempt to shame people into seeing things "your way".

I have already stated that I don't see any fear to racking (posturing) if a warning was going to be issued anyway. However, there are many situations where I may not want my position to be known beforehand. Where the element of surprise is what will allow me to defend my home and family and make it out alive (as just one example, where there are multiple targets who, through listening, you have already identified to be hostile).

Surely you can see it both ways and can allow logic and information to make your point without trying to use shame and accusations.

Never Nervous
01-07-2011, 18:13
A simple act of asking your local LEO's how many break ins involve unocupied homes and unarmed perps will make any reasonable person understand this issue. Thinking your home is going to be attacked like the ending scene of the movie "Scar Face" is wrong headed.

A thief is there to steal not fight. He thought no one was home. Just making a sound will make them leave and yes, the sound of a pump shotgun racking and calling out that you are on the phone with the police, says get out. If you are so afraid and lacking in your ability with a weapon that you are going to shoot anyone in your home first then find out who they are and why they are there then you are considering a cowardly act that will affect you the rest of your life. How can you take the act of killing so casually and not see the affects it is going to bring on you, your future and maybe financial ruin. Train with the weapon, become proficient, plan your response and you will be able to deal with a situation and still protect yourself and your family.

I have complete confidence in my ablity and my weapon. I know I have the ability to be deadly if needed and to know when that is. I do not have start shooting at a precieved threat as I am able to deal with the situation and determine if deadly force is called for. I do not fear things that go bump in the night 'cause I can bump back harder if need be.

Stealing is not a death sentence. I have nothing that I can not replace in this home. I do not use deadly force to protect property. I have something else for that. It is called insurance. What I can not replace is my life and I will take a life if needed to protect my own. But to kill when I don't know my life is even in danger, no way. That is the act of a coward.

This type of thread always upsets me because some of the responses are so illresponsible and paint us as the gun nut killers that the anti gun people believe us to be. I also see the voice of reason in many of the responses and that is assureing.

If I am awakened in the middle of the night by someone in my home, I don't give a rats pa-tuty why they are there. I will not be doing any soul searching about how I will feel about it later. The intruders will not be invited to come in and read the 23rd Psalms. But that's just me.

NN

WhiskeyUnicorn
01-08-2011, 13:00
I work at a gun store part time and have heard that as a selling point a bunch. "Just rack the slide and they'll piss themselves." Albeit, the sound of the slide strikes fear into some, I wouldn't use that as my main deterrent. Thats like feigning death when being attacked by a shark...

David Armstrong
01-12-2011, 18:51
This racking thing is dumb.

By racking a shotgun LOUDLY, you are giving up lots of info and giving the tango a giant tactical advantage.
Tango??:rofl:
- He knows you are armed
Which can be a good thing. Would you stick around a house knowing someone who is armed is there waiting to shoot you?
- He knows your position
If yo have gotten up and gone out looking for the BG, he probably knows where you are already.
- He knows you have a pump shotgun
Again, how is this a bad thing?

It's like cocking a hammer on your revolver to show you mean business. It's crappy tactics and bad gun handling.
I'd suggest keeping a shotgun that is probably not drop safe fully loaded is much worse than using the same tactics and gunhandling successfully used by LE for decades.

You ideally don't want him to know those things.
Folks keep saying that, but nobody seems able to provide a good argument for it.

If you are producing a shotgun in hopes of deterrence, then pointing the gun should work wonders without the pump sound. Following that, for maximum deterrence (facing a threat) fire it into his chest. He should break off his aggression at that point.
So rather than trying to get him to leave the house without trouble you think it is good tactics to confront him? Strange.

I was always taught that loud sounds don't do anything to scare people or even keep their heads down. It's well-aimed lead that does that. That means don't try to scare someone by outputting noise in their general direction...you need to actually hit them.
You were taught wrong. loiud sounds regualrly scare people and cause folks to keep their heads down.

I cringe thinking of some dude that takes the old gun shop commando advice of 'just pump yer slide and they'll run fer it!' and gets shot while stomping into his living room at 2AM and promptly working his action in the face of 3 gangbangers. Bad tactics.
Agreed, but I don't see anyone here who is suggesting those tactics.

jdavionic
01-12-2011, 19:24
The whole sound issue aside, I think there is merit to storing your shotgun with an empty chamber. The rational that I've read deals more with the design of many shotguns.

While it's from 2004, I think this article by Massad Ayoob is a good read on the subject of shotguns. You will see a discussion on the subject of keeping it unchambered. I think there is enough merit to this part to make the other discussions on the subject moot, IMHO.
http://www.sigma9.info/sigma9-documents/Prime-Computer_docs/Ayoob%20firearms/The%20pump%20shotgun%97a%20backwoods%20home%20classic.pdf

Aceman
01-12-2011, 20:18
The message I'm hearing: You are in my house and I'm shooting you, even in the back if you are on your way out the door because Tango's[:rofl:] can be shot just because I feel like it.

Clearly people who haven't done it and never had to explain it to the judge...Not saying I have. And I never want to.

And I welcome you to come to my house at night, with a Glock and we'll play this little game: I'll rack my Mossberg, and yell "ready or not here I come"

And we'll see if you can shoot me first. I don't think you'll do so well. Either you will get shot by me, or the police will show up. Not saying it won't turn out the other way. But I really don't think you have nearly the advantage you think you do...

Nalapombu
01-12-2011, 21:55
I think racking the slide for the sake of intimidation is wrong headed.
If they know anything about shotguns they now have an idea that you may be intimidated and more than likely you only have a max of 8 shots before reload then maybe 4 on the side. Also pumps are known to short stroke when the person operating it is nervous or scarred.
It happens not often but it can.

I would be willing to wager a LARGE sum of cash that there hasn't been a burglar in the history of burgling that has EVER thought this upon his hearing a shotgun being racked after he's broken into a home.

The goal is to protect yourself and family WITHOUT having to shoot someone. You ever pull the trigger on someone breaking into your house in the middle of the night and you'll probably be filing for bankruptcy not long after that. I'll take my chances with racking my shotgun and letting whomever is in my house hear it and know exactly where I am and what they are going to be dealing with if they choose to proceed.

Nalajr

dorkweed
01-14-2011, 07:52
Aippi,

While I generally agree with you on most things, not this (at least in how presented).

Surely you can see that there are two very well developed schools of training on this, both taught by very reputable and good sources, who suggest both schools.

Trying to us "mall ninja" and inadvertently shooting dark forms without IDing is not what anyone has advocated. And further, it's just an attempt to shame people into seeing things "your way".

I have already stated that I don't see any fear to racking (posturing) if a warning was going to be issued anyway. However, there are many situations where I may not want my position to be known beforehand. Where the element of surprise is what will allow me to defend my home and family and make it out alive (as just one example, where there are multiple targets who, through listening, you have already identified to be hostile).

Surely you can see it both ways and can allow logic and information to make your point without trying to use shame and accusations.



You won't be able to rack the shotgun any way.........you'll have your thumb stuck in the magazine!!!!:rofl::rofl::whistling:

MacG22
01-14-2011, 14:07
You won't be able to rack the shotgun any way.........you'll have your thumb stuck in the magazine!!!!:rofl::rofl::whistling:

:embarassed:

dorkweed
01-14-2011, 18:11
:embarassed:




Sorry, but from your other post.............I just had to!!!!!:rofl::rofl::wavey:

WiskyT
01-15-2011, 07:52
I would be willing to wager a LARGE sum of cash that there hasn't been a burglar in the history of burgling that has EVER thought this upon his hearing a shotgun being racked after he's broken into a home.

The goal is to protect yourself and family WITHOUT having to shoot someone. You ever pull the trigger on someone breaking into your house in the middle of the night and you'll probably be filing for bankruptcy not long after that. I'll take my chances with racking my shotgun and letting whomever is in my house hear it and know exactly where I am and what they are going to be dealing with if they choose to proceed.

Nalajr

You need to get out more and meet a different class of people. Cops are armed, visibly armed, and people attack them all the time. There are lots of animals out there who will defy the challenge of a gun pointed at them, racked, etc. I've met them personally. I've had them run at me and run away from me.

FWIW, anyone breaking into an occupied home is already defying the owners attempts to warn him off. They are breaking into an occupied home because they WANT you in there and don't care if you are armed or not. Announcing yourself just tosses away your chief advantage and also shows him you're too much of a meow to shoot him.

If someone is in your house, kill them. It's as simple as that. If you don't think you have the stomach for it, then you need to work on getting it. It's all part of the survival mindset. That is what makes 80 year old women armed with an H&R 22 revolver win gunfights.

WhiskeyUnicorn
01-15-2011, 10:26
...If someone is in your house, kill them. It's as simple as that...

Its not as simple as someone in your house, you shoot him. What if an elderly confused man stumbled into your home and thought it was his own, assuming your door was unlocked? Would you want me to blast your grandpa because he mistaked my house for his? Life isn't simple and neither are laws, courts, and pound you in the ass prisons. As much **** as people get away with in court these days, I'd be wary of blasting away at a bump in the night...just sayin. There are two many scenarios to even talk about on this forum...to each their own. You want to shoot first and be questioned later, do it. If Mr. White would like to rack his shotgun and scare the bad guy away...cool. You can't say what you will, only what you have done. You can't make someone stomach killing another human being either... Every time and scenario will be different for everyone...

Sorry for off-topic

David Armstrong
01-15-2011, 12:42
FWIW, anyone breaking into an occupied home is already defying the owners attempts to warn him off. They are breaking into an occupied home because they WANT you in there and don't care if you are armed or not.
Sorry, but that is simply not true. Most BGs care very much if you are armed or not. They are breaking in for a reason. "I want to get into a gunfight" isn't one of those reasons.
Announcing yourself just tosses away your chief advantage and also shows him you're too much of a meow to shoot him.
Don't know where folks get ideas like this, but pretty much all the evidence says that is wrong.
If someone is in your house, kill them. It's as simple as that.
Again, don't know where folks get ideas like this. Killing someone is almost never simple, it starts a rather complicated and expensive process that most folks want to avoid.

aippi
01-15-2011, 14:58
Yes, I will rack my 870 and call out that I am armed and to get out of my house.

Normally this topic leaves me with a rather sick feeling due to all the "kill 'em all" mind sets. I have to say that this go around has brought out some very resonable sounding people. However, My main fear is the anti gun lobby will feed off the Killer Clowns and hold them up as the average gun owner in their attempts to take our rights away. I will defend with my life every one of you having the right to own firearms but after reading some of your comments I realize I would be dying for a small percentage of fools also.

You have to just about get the NRA magazine to even hear about an armed citizen defending their life. Let one of you killer clowns blow away some kid sneaking out of your daughters bedroom and that will be headlines for days on every talk show and newspaper. what, can't happen. I had teenage daughters and it did and the only one more scared then that boy was me when I realized who he was and what could have happened. You illresponsible people shame me as I am a responsible gun owner and your cavilier attitude about taking life proves you have either never been put in that situation or you have a chip missing somewhere.

WhiskeyUnicorn
01-15-2011, 15:04
^ What he said.

WiskyT
01-15-2011, 15:17
Sorry, but that is simply not true. Most BGs care very much if you are armed or not. They are breaking in for a reason. "I want to get into a gunfight" isn't one of those reasons.

Don't know where folks get ideas like this, but pretty much all the evidence says that is wrong.

Again, don't know where folks get ideas like this. Killing someone is almost never simple, it starts a rather complicated and expensive process that most folks want to avoid.

How many burglars have you caught and interviewed? Trust me, I've caught them, interviewed them, taken statements from them and sent them to prison. Anybody that breaks into an occupied residence is looking for more than a flat screen.

Burglars that don;t want a confrontation go to great trouble to avoid occupied homes. Occasionally when they walk in on someone by accident, they flee. When someone breaks into your home at 2300, they want you to be there.

Killing a burglar is VERY simple. The "castle doctrine" has been around since before the Mayflower. Read your state's criminal code regarding "justification" so you can know what you're talking about instead of hearing gun shop and internet blather about what you need to do. Check out the local library and get back to us on that. This isn't Great Britain (yet).

Bill G
01-15-2011, 15:23
How many burglars have you caught and interviewed? Trust me, I've caught them, interviewed them, taken statements from them and sent them to prison. Anybody that breaks into an occupied residence is looking for more than a flat screen.

Burglars that don;t want a confrontation go to great trouble to avoid occupied homes. Occasionally when they walk in on someone by accident, they flee. When someone breaks into your home at 2300, they want you to be there.

Killing a burglar is VERY simple. The "castle doctrine" has been around since before the Mayflower. Read your state's criminal code regarding "justification" so you can know what you're talking about instead of hearing gun shop and internet blather about what you need to do. Check out the local library and get back to us on that. This isn't Great Britain (yet).

Very good point about the types of burglers but I don't agree that it's easy to kill someone... That's a hole diffrent matter ..... No one wants that if at all possible..

Take Care All,
Bill G

WiskyT
01-15-2011, 15:23
Its not as simple as someone in your house, you shoot him. What if an elderly confused man stumbled into your home and thought it was his own, assuming your door was unlocked? Would you want me to blast your grandpa because he mistaked my house for his? Life isn't simple and neither are laws, courts, and pound you in the ass prisons. As much **** as people get away with in court these days, I'd be wary of blasting away at a bump in the night...just sayin. There are two many scenarios to even talk about on this forum...to each their own. You want to shoot first and be questioned later, do it. If Mr. White would like to rack his shotgun and scare the bad guy away...cool. You can't say what you will, only what you have done. You can't make someone stomach killing another human being either... Every time and scenario will be different for everyone...

Sorry for off-topic

Off topic and putting words in my mouth. Way to go taking my words, bend them to an extreme position, and put a nonsense spin on it.

And your position isn't accurate anyway. People shoot confused drunks who force their way in all the time and are no-billed, if it even goes to a grand jury. Sorry if your Pa Pa gets blasted by a homeowner who chose not to risk the welfare of his family.

Mr. White will have to make his own decisions. When he racks that gun and the guy just keeps walikng towards him, indifferent to his defensive tactics, the moment of truth will be there.

MacG22
01-15-2011, 18:28
Again, don't know where folks get ideas like this. Killing someone is almost never simple, it starts a rather complicated and expensive process that most folks want to avoid.

Actually, in many states David, it can be. Castle laws are built upon the idea that your home is a "secondary location", in criminal terms, and for a majority of circumstances you are protected from both criminal and civil liability.

There are a few circumstances that can bring question, and issues of coercion. But in general, if someone surprises you in your home and you defend yourself, you get the benefit of the doubt.

However, not all states are Castle states.

WiskyT
01-15-2011, 19:21
Actually, in many states David, it can be. Castle laws are built upon the idea that your home is a "secondary location", in criminal terms, and for a majority of circumstances you are protected from both criminal and civil liability.

There are a few circumstances that can bring question, and issues of coercion. But in general, if someone surprises you in your home and you defend yourself, you get the benefit of the doubt.

However, not all states are Castle states.

The term "Castle Doctrine" is misunderstood by many people I think. The way it is being used recently means to extend the concept of CD to outside the "castle". So, NC and NJ, two states I know about, don't have "Castle Doctrine" laws as people refer to them today, meaning you are obligated to retreat, if possible, outside the home, but in reality, the concept of Castle Doctrine in it's true sense still applies to the "castle" (home). In NJ, as long as it is actually a self-defense situation, the concept of CD applies in the home.

That brings up your point about circumstances. If a homeowner shoots a buddy over a gambling debt in his home and claims castle doctrine, he still has a problem since it really isn't a self defense situation. But if some burglar comes in your house while you're there, you can pretty much blast him without further justification.

dc2integra
01-15-2011, 19:46
Yes, I will rack my 870 and call out that I am armed and to get out of my house.

Normally this topic leaves me with a rather sick feeling due to all the "kill 'em all" mind sets. I have to say that this go around has brought out some very resonable sounding people. However, My main fear is the anti gun lobby will feed off the Killer Clowns and hold them up as the average gun owner in their attempts to take our rights away. I will defend with my life every one of you having the right to own firearms but after reading some of your comments I realize I would be dying for a small percentage of fools also.

You have to just about get the NRA magazine to even hear about an armed citizen defending their life. Let one of you killer clowns blow away some kid sneaking out of your daughters bedroom and that will be headlines for days on every talk show and newspaper. what, can't happen. I had teenage daughters and it did and the only one more scared then that boy was me when I realized who he was and what could have happened. You illresponsible people shame me as I am a responsible gun owner and your cavilier attitude about taking life proves you have either never been put in that situation or you have a chip missing somewhere.
good point you got there

MacG22
01-15-2011, 22:54
The term "Castle Doctrine" is misunderstood by many people I think. The way it is being used recently means to extend the concept of CD to outside the "castle". So, NC and NJ, two states I know about, don't have "Castle Doctrine" laws as people refer to them today, meaning you are obligated to retreat, if possible, outside the home, but in reality, the concept of Castle Doctrine in it's true sense still applies to the "castle" (home). In NJ, as long as it is actually a self-defense situation, the concept of CD applies in the home.

That brings up your point about circumstances. If a homeowner shoots a buddy over a gambling debt in his home and claims castle doctrine, he still has a problem since it really isn't a self defense situation. But if some burglar comes in your house while you're there, you can pretty much blast him without further justification.


Right. In your home (in Castle states) you are not required to try and understand the complexities of the person's possible intent. You don't need to evaluate if you may be able to flee without being noticed or try to divine if the person will only take the tv, or if they will take the tv and rape your daughter.

You are allowed to defend your home from an intruder without having to know about their intent, as the invasion itself is justification. That does not mean we SHOULDN'T try to determine intent some times, or try to be careful to give someone a fair chance to explain. It's not wise to just shoot at every creak in the floor, and no one is suggesting that anyone should.

But to a large extent, you don't need to know if the drunk in your house at 2 am--who broke your window or door-- was there accidentally, was there to harm your family, or was there to steal medications, in order to be protected from civil and criminal punishment.

So in some ways, it is pretty simple.

Danielrh123
01-15-2011, 23:05
Like most people have said already I'm not relying on the racking of a slide to protect my life I'm relying on a loud boom.

WiskyT
01-15-2011, 23:07
Right. In your home (in Castle states) you do are not required to try and understand the complexities of the person's possible intent. You don't need to evaluate if you may be able to flee without being noticed or try to divine if the person will only take the tv, or if they will take the tv and rape your daughter.

You are allowed to defend your home from an intruder without having to know about their intent, as the invasion itself is justification. That does not mean we SHOULDN'T try to determine intent some times, or try to be careful to give someone a fair chance to explain. It's not wise to just shoot at every creek in the floor, and no one is suggesting that anyone should.

But to a large extent, you don't need to know if the drunk in your house at 2 am--who broke your window or door-- was there accidentally, was there to harm your family, or was there to steal medications, in order to be protected from civil and criminal punishment.

So in some ways, it is pretty simple.

Well stated, and unlike my posts, coherent.:supergrin:

Aceman
01-16-2011, 10:21
How many burglars have you caught and interviewed? Trust me, I've caught them, interviewed them, taken statements from them and sent them to prison. Anybody that breaks into an occupied residence is looking for more than a flat screen.

Burglars that don;t want a confrontation go to great trouble to avoid occupied homes. Occasionally when they walk in on someone by accident, they flee. When someone breaks into your home at 2300, they want you to be there.

Killing a burglar is VERY simple. The "castle doctrine" has been around since before the Mayflower. Read your state's criminal code regarding "justification" so you can know what you're talking about instead of hearing gun shop and internet blather about what you need to do. Check out the local library and get back to us on that. This isn't Great Britain (yet).

I'm going out a limb here and saying you are a law enforcement officer.

I also think it's time you take a job behind the desk. Sounds like you have been out there a bit too long and your perception is extremely skewed.

Maybe I'm wrong - but nothing you are saying sounds healthy, sensible or legal in any sense. You may want to check into that.

As was said - my gun does not have anything in the chamber (lots of reasons), and there will be a rack. But the second that rack is done, there is round in the chamber with a gun raised pointed harms way with a finger on the trigger and the safety off. It is entirely possible that I go from that situation right to BANG. But I won't if I don'y have/need to.

The LAST thing I want to do is pull that trigger (lots of reasons), but it is the FIRST thing that will happen if I ID a target and decide threat. And there isn't a lot of margin in that decision on the BG's part.

All I heard from you was (from what I gather); I a cop - shoot anyone in your house. I'm tired of dealing with it and you don't have any balls if you don't.

Explain if I missed a basic point there - or clarify?

Most of the BG's in your house are there when you aren't.
Most of them there when you are there by accident.
Most of them there by accident will leave when they realize you are.
Most of them there not by accident still don't want-intend an armed/resisted conflict if that's obvious.

Now we are down to a very few that really don't care. They will be easy to know because they are coming at you, firing at noise or whatever. All bad moves on their part. You *might get a 1/1,000,000 lucky shot off that works. Then you gave up your tactical advantage.

AggiePhil
01-16-2011, 10:48
This thread has run its course. :deadhorse:

Bill G
01-16-2011, 11:12
This thread has run its course. :deadhorse:

You're right about that it has run its course.

I have talked with several law enforcment officers and most agree there are two types of criminals; the ones that want nothing to do with you and try to steal when your not home, then there are the ones you need to worry about who do not care. These are the ones that are violent who look forward to confrontation and don't care if you are home. If this type criminal breaks in to our home all of us will get our belief sytems checked. At this point. All of this rederic will get played out based on what we do, that's a fact. God forbid it never happens and all we have to do is talk about the what if's on a forum.

Take Care All,:supergrin:
Bill G

Bug Eater
01-16-2011, 14:40
There is certainly a lot of good info in this thread.

Chamber or not is your choice.

But I have read somewhere that BG are targeting homes while the owners are home and up. This is their way around the alarm systems. It does not mean the BG intends any physical harm.

If nothing else, this will give some of you something for your scenario training.

WiskyT
01-16-2011, 14:49
I'm going out a limb here and saying you are a law enforcement officer.

I also think it's time you take a job behind the desk. Sounds like you have been out there a bit too long and your perception is extremely skewed.

Maybe I'm wrong - but nothing you are saying sounds healthy, sensible or legal in any sense. You may want to check into that.

As was said - my gun does not have anything in the chamber (lots of reasons), and there will be a rack. But the second that rack is done, there is round in the chamber with a gun raised pointed harms way with a finger on the trigger and the safety off. It is entirely possible that I go from that situation right to BANG. But I won't if I don'y have/need to.

The LAST thing I want to do is pull that trigger (lots of reasons), but it is the FIRST thing that will happen if I ID a target and decide threat. And there isn't a lot of margin in that decision on the BG's part.

All I heard from you was (from what I gather); I a cop - shoot anyone in your house. I'm tired of dealing with it and you don't have any balls if you don't.

Explain if I missed a basic point there - or clarify?

Most of the BG's in your house are there when you aren't.
Most of them there when you are there by accident.
Most of them there by accident will leave when they realize you are.
Most of them there not by accident still don't want-intend an armed/resisted conflict if that's obvious.

Now we are down to a very few that really don't care. They will be easy to know because they are coming at you, firing at noise or whatever. All bad moves on their part. You *might get a 1/1,000,000 lucky shot off that works. Then you gave up your tactical advantage.

Wow! Just, wow! Pop psychology, personal attacks, ignorance, and failing reading comprehension, all in one post. You should see if you can get your own show on that new Oprah network.

David Armstrong
01-16-2011, 17:20
How many burglars have you caught and interviewed?
Don't know. I made about 900 felony arrests, but I don't remmeber what percentage were for which crimes. But trust me, Ive caught them, interviewed them, taken statements from them and sent them to prison. And most, no matter what they are looking for, only want to get out of th ehouse when they realize the homeowner is awake, armed, and waiting for them.
Burglars that don;t want a confrontation go to great trouble to avoid occupied homes. Occasionally when they walk in on someone by accident, they flee. When someone breaks into your home at 2300, they want you to be there.
OK, when you can find me a burglar who will say that he was willing to continue burlarizing the house after finding out the police are coming, the home owner is awake and armed and waiting for him, I'll be glad to look into it. But all the research says just the opposite.
Killing a burglar is VERY simple.
Killing anybody is very simple. But the problem does not stop with the killing. The killing starts a process that often is rather complicated and expensive.
The "castle doctrine" has been around since before the Mayflower. Read your state's criminal code regarding "justification" so you can know what you're talking about instead of hearing gun shop and internet blather about what you need to do. Check out the local library and get back to us on that. This isn't Great Britain (yet).
I always love this kind of nonsense, given that I teach the criminal code and assorted other legal issues on a regular basis. As I've stated repeatedly, jsut because you can shoot someone (justification) it doesn't mean it is a good idea to shoot someone. Check out the Joe Horn and Rodney Peairs cases at the local llibrary and get back to us on that:upeyes:.

David Armstrong
01-16-2011, 17:26
Actually, in many states David, it can be. Castle laws are built upon the idea that your home is a "secondary location", in criminal terms, and for a majority of circumstances you are protected from both criminal and civil liability.
I'd question the "many" claim. Sadly, many if not most folks live in areas where the protection from criminal and civil cases is rather limited. And even if the protection is there, you might still be out a bunch of money before the courts decide that protection is available to you. Again, Joe Horn is a great example.
There are a few circumstances that can bring question, and issues of coercion. But in general, if someone surprises you in your home and you defend yourself, you get the benefit of the doubt.
Even if you get the benefit of the doubt you are still going to have problems. Whether those problems are a big deal to the individual or not I can't address. But whatever the problems are they would not be there if the BG took advantage of the chance to go away.
However, not all states are Castle states.
Exactly.

WiskyT
01-16-2011, 17:56
I always love this kind of nonsense, given that I teach the criminal code and assorted other legal issues on a regular basis. As I've stated repeatedly, jsut because you can shoot someone (justification) it doesn't mean it is a good idea to shoot someone. Check out the Joe Horn and Rodney Peairs cases at the local llibrary and get back to us on that.
__________________


Great, so you stipulate that my point is correct, but then call it nonsense. Well played sir, I'm sure the people who sleep through your classes at the local community college are being well served.

Joe Horn was outdoors, and he was no-billed. I don't think he was even arrested. Really, WTF are you talking about?

OK, when you can find me a burglar who will say that he was willing to continue burlarizing the house after finding out the police are coming, the home owner is awake and armed and waiting for him, I'll be glad to look into it. But all the research says just the opposite.


Here's a nice contradiction on your part:

And most, no matter what they are looking for, only want to get out of th ehouse when they realize the homeowner is awake, armed, and waiting for them.


What are we talking about, your extensive expeirience making "felony arrests" which eclipses Inspector Callahan, or "research"?

As far as show you a burglar who will stick around when he knows the police are coming, how TF do you think I found so many? I don't know what kind of felons you stumbled across, but they don't seem to hold a candle to the guys I've caught masterbating in hallways while watching people sleep.

Also, lots of burglars don't give the homowner the courtesy of letting them call the police. Maybe they are more respectful of homowners in lollipop land where you live and make three arrests a month.

And 3 felony arrests a month is dog**** for an average, just so you know. And "felony arrests" is a silly stat to throw around too. A dick swears out a warrant on a check kiter and the check is for over $200.00 and he's got one of Dirty Harry's "felony arrests". We had guys do that three times a day and then get the check kiter to walk in for his arrest. We didn't even keep stats on that stuff.

Killing anybody is very simple. But the problem does not stop with the killing. The killing starts a process that often is rather complicated and expensive.


The process stops within a few hours when the window screen is cut and the killed person is in someone else's house.

You claim to have lots of experience, but your posts don't indicate that. It almost seems like your experience comes from watching TV when you use terms like "felony arrests" and "research". You sound like a guy who makes his decisions based on "research" and how much trouble his actions will cause him, rather than the death or injury that could result from protecting yourself, and in your case, the public you are sworn to protect. We had lots of guys like that in admin. Always telling everybody what kind of trouble they could have if they do this or that. They never did anything themselves, they just "promulgated directives" that the real cops had to ignore when they were actually on the road.:dunno:

MacG22
01-16-2011, 18:40
I have to agree, Ace. That was one hell of a miss on that response.

You may disagree with what the officer said, but it would have made much more sense if you refuted it with some sort of fact or research. The officer didn't say his anecdote is always the truth. Just what he's seen. I appreciate that. And I agree. If someone just wants "stuff", they go to great pains to hit your home when there is as small of chance of being seen or caught as possible.

If they hit you when they know you are home, they are either crazy, drug altered, or a predator. And sometimes a mix of all of those. And that is dangerous as hell.

MacG22
01-16-2011, 18:48
David,

Horn is hardly a good case to use when examining the castle doctrine. Horn saw burglars entering his NEIGHBOR'S house, and went out and provoked them, they followed him onto his front yard, and he shot them after issuing a poor warning while on the phone with 911.

Go to this site, run by the NRA. Every week they run stories of people who defend their homes and are treated exactly as the castle doctrine states: http://thearmedcitizen.com/

Now, if you're not in a castle state, things are more complex. I AM in a castle state. And I know, from copious reading and researching, that I am not required to interview an invader in order to be provided protection under the law. I'm not saying that it may not be prudent at times, but I do not need to uncover or divine their intentions for my family and I in order to be protected under the law for my self defense actions.

However, this doesn't mean that I don't see great wisdom in your assertion that posturing may diffuse some large percentage of circumstances where a person was drunk, drugged, or confused and truly wished the home owner no harm. And I think it's good to have a strategy that allows you to account for that whenever possible. Posturing with warnings, slide-rackings, etc may accomplish that and it may be a great thing for a person to incorporate those things.

But they stand as a part a strategy, but not really connected to whether a person is protected by castle laws.

Aceman
01-16-2011, 22:32
Wow! Just, wow! Pop psychology, personal attacks, ignorance, and failing reading comprehension, all in one post. You should see if you can get your own show on that new Oprah network.

I didn't see any pop psychology; Burnout is a real thing.

Personal attacks; Perhaps. Of course it could be a response to what I think was incredibly dangerous advice.

Ignorance; About what?

Failing reading comprehension; I made the assumption that I might have mis-understood something. That's why I asked for clarification. Haven't seen it yet. Just a personal attack regarding Oprah (that's low...)

I read your post. With out specifying any particular situation it appears to me that you advocate shoot anyone in your home. You furthermore state that it is easy to do and legal. Please explain how that is reasonable or legal period?

I maintain that it is rare that your home gets broken into, even more rare that it happens when you are there, rarer still that person is interested in an armed conflict with an obviously armed owner.

If they are - you should certainly be ready. So, either make your position clear, or I'm sticking with your post was typed with a lot of anger, and verbal shooting from the hip.

And as for David living in Lollipop, you say that isn't a personal attack? He didn't say you were living in a Chuck Bronson movie from the 70's...

Just yell/scream/spout. I'm sure that will give people all the right information. Especially the new shooters who don't know any better.

So I'm asking - are you going to make it clear, or was shoot anyone in the house what you meant and it doesn't need to be any more clear? If not for me, maybe for the people out there who are Oprah fans and even dumber than me...

jdavionic
01-17-2011, 13:12
I maintain that it is rare that your home gets broken into, even more rare that it happens when you are there, rarer still that person is interested in an armed conflict with an obviously armed owner.

This is obviously location dependent. However I can tell you that in NE GA, the home break ins are not "rare". In addition, home invasions are not "rare". In testimony that I heard on GJ (over 500 cases over 6 months), we repeatedly heard "...and this is becoming more common". We heard cases of people that were targeted because they were small business owners that had some bad habits. Elderly that were targeted because they were deemed "easy" targets. I could go on & on with a wide variety of circumstances.

When the people are caught, they are not charged with "home invasion" (not a specific crime in our county) since it is actually different crimes that they have committed with specifics depending upon the specific incident - e.g., aggravated assault. Sure, we heard several cases where people were involved in drugs and were attacked by other BGs. However we also heard disturbing cases where the victims were innocent and targeted for other reasons like the ones that I've mentioned.

While I think keeping the chamber clear on shotgun is not a bad idea for the reasons that I previously posted (see Ayoob article), I don't think that you can assume that the BG is not prepared for an armed encounter. If they are breaking into a home during the day when most people are at work, this assumption is probably valid (IMO). They likely just wanted to get in & out with stuff that is easy to sell. However if they enter your home between early evening and early morning, they are likely expecting you to be home, they are likely armed, and they likely have a plan for what to do with you.

WiskyT
01-17-2011, 15:35
This is obviously location dependent. However I can tell you that in NE GA, the home break ins are not "rare". In addition, home invasions are not "rare". In testimony that I heard on GJ (over 500 cases over 6 months), we repeatedly heard "...and this is becoming more common". We heard cases of people that were targeted because they were small business owners that had some bad habits. Elderly that were targeted because they were deemed "easy" targets. I could go on & on with a wide variety of circumstances.

When the people are caught, they are not charged with "home invasion" (not a specific crime in our county) since it is actually different crimes that they have committed with specifics depending upon the specific incident - e.g., aggravated assault. Sure, we heard several cases where people were involved in drugs and were attacked by other BGs. However we also heard disturbing cases where the victims were innocent and targeted for other reasons like the ones that I've mentioned.

While I think keeping the chamber clear on shotgun is not a bad idea for the reasons that I previously posted (see Ayoob article), I don't think that you can assume that the BG is not prepared for an armed encounter. If they are breaking into a home during the day when most people are at work, this assumption is probably valid (IMO). They likely just wanted to get in & out with stuff that is easy to sell. However if they enter your home between early evening and early morning, they are likely expecting you to be home, they are likely armed, and they likely have a plan for what to do with you.

That's all I'm saying. Jdavionic and MacG22 say it better than I do, but that's what I'm trying to get across.