WWII 1911 questions [Archive] - Glock Talk

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pm666
12-27-2010, 11:22
Is it possible to buy a WWII 1911 or are they very rare? I had an early Kimber 1911 which was unreliable and I sold it. I would like to have an authentic WWII 1911 if it was reliable and not worn out, but I don't know if they exist and for how much money. It would be a range gun as I have a Glock 21sf that is my home defense gun, but I don't want the 1911 in for repairs all the time either. I dout if I'd want to pay $1k for used WWII 1911 either. I've searched for WWII 1911's but haven't had much luck, I think I am searching in the wrong places or something.
I'm also concerned about getting ripped off because I wouldn't know how to tell an authentic WWII 1911 from one that isn't authentic.
Any suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks,
paul

Quack
12-27-2010, 11:25
they exist, but for a nice one, it'll be more than $1000

Hokie1911
12-27-2010, 11:30
Bac posted a link a while back about a really nice looking oldschool GI replica. I don't remember who it was, and they ran $1,800 I think, but they looked excellent. He spoke very highly of them.

polizei1
12-27-2010, 11:35
If you're not looking to spend over $1k, I'd look at a modern 1911 or even a GI replica. SA makes a GI and Remington has the R1. But are around $600 I believe...or you could just get a modern 1911 for ~$1k. and it will be reliable. I would look into the SA RO, it seems to be getting some really nice reviews.

pm666
12-27-2010, 12:00
Wow...I could afford the $1k+, but is just doesn't have that much value to me. Heck, a few $ more and I could get a low end Wilson Combat. The only appeal to me is the authenticity of a WWII 1911. Same goes for my SAA that I've wanted, not interested in affording a 1st Generation and even the 2nd Generations are expensive. The weird sights on the 3rd Generation aren't "Old West" sights, so forget that. I guess I'll look to buy another Glock.
Thanks for the info...you guys know your stuff!
Paul

lawdog734
12-27-2010, 12:04
I paid $1500 for my colt and it is worth at least $300 more

jrs93accord
12-27-2010, 12:22
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea2010/001.jpg

1919 Colt 1911 ($1800), 1943 Ithaca 1911A1- reparked ($900), 1944 Remington Rand ($1500).

jrs93accord
12-27-2010, 12:27
Cimarron Arms has a nice 1911 version (around $599).

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea2010/005-7.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea2010/004-11.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea2010/003-15.jpg



and there is also the IAC Regent (around $425)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea2010/004-4.jpg

Quack
12-27-2010, 12:28
Is it possible to buy a WWII 1911 or are they very rare? I had an early Kimber 1911 which was unreliable and I sold it. I would like to have an authentic WWII 1911 if it was reliable and not worn out, but I don't know if they exist and for how much money. It would be a range gun as I have a Glock 21sf that is my home defense gun, but I don't want the 1911 in for repairs all the time either. I dout if I'd want to pay $1k for used WWII 1911 either. I've searched for WWII 1911's but haven't had much luck, I think I am searching in the wrong places or something.
I'm also concerned about getting ripped off because I wouldn't know how to tell an authentic WWII 1911 from one that isn't authentic.
Any suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks,
paul

don't let the Kimber experience think that the 1911 is a bad platform.

MrMurphy
12-27-2010, 12:52
Finding one in original condition will be the problem, a lot were postwar modified.

For a WW2-range gun, simply get a Springfield GI. No, it's not a "real" WW2 piece but for $500ish you can shoot it all you want and not worry about it. High Standard and others make similar WW2 clones.

Jim S.
12-27-2010, 12:52
If you did get an actual WWII 1911 with all of the proper parts in it I would hesitate to use it as a range gun.
Sure you could shoot it all day long as long as you use normal powered FMJ ammunition.
But, if it ever breaks a part and you have to replace it the value of your gun goes down.
Most people who get older 1911's simply keep them as a collectors item.
There are many good cheap 1911's in the 600 dollar range that make good range guns.
You can beat the crap out of em and replace parts all you want and the value doesn't matter.
I like the Springfield Armory Mil-Specs as a basic beater 1911.

pm666
12-27-2010, 15:20
You guys have a lot of good points and knowledge. I'm glad I posted here. I kind of see where you are coming and what you are telling me. My authentic WWII 1911 would have to be a "Colt", but it would not have to be 100% original parts or anything like that. It would see some range use, but not extensive. I guess in my mind, the thought that this is what the soldiers in WWII were actually using is what makes me want that WWII Colt 1911. I hope that isn't weird. I watch WWII movies and reruns of Combat! - damn, all that gear/uniform/helmet was so damn heavy!
My first gun was that Kimber 1911, some of the metal felt like pot metal. I did not grow up with guns nor was I in the armed forces, etc. That Kimber was defective from day one - one press of the trigger and it would fire 2-3 round bursts with burning metal/powder flying out of the ejection port and sometimes hitting my hand. At first I thought I was doing something wrong. I told the guy at the gun shop where I bought about it and he wanted to try it...he did and got a hot glowing ember of something on his hand and it burnt him pretty good. He was mad at me, but I told him that's what it did. He sent it back to Kimber and supposedly it was a mainspring (the one behind the backstrap). I still never trusted it and Kimber is a girl's name...not sure why someone would name a gun mfr company "Kimber". Also, due to limited training time, I never knew when the safety was on or off unless I looked at it. I can't tell you how many times I thought it was ready to fire until I pulled the trigger and found out the safety was on. I traded it for a SIG P220 which was better, but then I wasn't thrilled with the DA/SA. Years later, I recently sold it and got a Glock 21sf and for the most part all I have to think about is keeping my finger off of the trigger until I'm ready fire, keep it pointed downrange, don't try to catch it if it falls out of my hand for some reason, etc. It works much better at least for me anyway as a home defense gun.
Regardless, I don't know where all the Colt WWII 1911's went, there must have hundreds of thousands of them and WWII wasn't THAT long ago. There are probably millions of them stored and lost in some government warehouse somewhere. Sorry for rambling.

craig19
12-27-2010, 15:26
I think Kimber is the guy's last name.

I'm pretty sure Uncle Sam either destroyed or gave them to 3rd world hell holes to help fight the commies.

Quack
12-27-2010, 15:29
nope,

Kimber was founded as "Kimber of Oregon" in 1979 by Greg and Jack Warne in the small town of Colton, Oregon. The company quickly built a reputation for accurate .22 caliber rifles, began to expand its product line and eventually build a manufacturing plant in the nearby city of Clackamas. In the early 1990s, the company fell on hard times. Over the course of several years, Leslie Edelman acquired a majority interest in the company. Kimber of Oregon's financial situation did not improve significantly, ultimately leading to the closure of its facilities in Oregon in 1997.

At the same time, Yonkers-based "Jerico Precision Manufacturing", a manufacturer of hand tools and mechanical components for the defense industry, was adjusting to cuts in defense spending. Edelman decided to connect Jerico Precision's existing infrastructure and manufacturing capabilities and Kimber's reputation and extensive network of dealers to build a line of 1911-style handguns. He eventually purchased Jerico Precision and renamed the business "Kimber of America".

A federal grand jury indicted former CFO Denis Shusterman for embezzling a total of $10 million from Kimber Manufacturing on December 9, 2004.[2] He was later convicted after pleading guilty, ordered to pay damages and back taxes and sentenced to 14 years in federal prison.

Jerico is an acronym for "Jerry and Richard's Company." Jerry Roman and Richard Brown

craig19
12-27-2010, 15:35
Thanks Quack, that company sounds like a mess.

jrs93accord
12-27-2010, 15:36
You guys have a lot of good points and knowledge. I'm glad I posted here. I kind of see where you are coming and what you are telling me. My authentic WWII 1911 would have to be a "Colt", but it would not have to be 100% original parts or anything like that. It would see some range use, but not extensive. I guess in my mind, the thought that this is what the soldiers in WWII were actually using is what makes me want that WWII Colt 1911. I hope that isn't weird. I watch WWII movies and reruns of Combat! - damn, all that gear/uniform/helmet was so damn heavy!
..............

A WWII 1911A1 would not necessarily be a Colt. They were also made by Remington Rand, Ithaca, Singer, and Union, Switch & Signal. There are many parts guns out there that can be bought for a lot less. A parts gun is one that may have a Colt slide and Remington Rand frame or a Remington Rand slide over a Colt frame, etc. This usually occurs when the armory gets in a mass of pistols and they try to rework as many as they can to keep them in service. All the good parts are used to re-assemble a complete working pistol. That is how they get mis-matched.

craig19
12-27-2010, 15:55
A WWI 1911A1 would not necessarily be a Colt. They were also made by Remington Rand, Ithaca, Singer, and Union, Switch & Signal. There are many parts guns out there that can be bought for a lot less. A parts gun is one that may have a Colt slide and Remington Rand frame or a Remington Rand slide over a Colt frame, etc. This usually occurs when the armory gets in a mass of pistols and they try to rework as many as they can to keep them in service. All the good parts are used to re-assemble a complete working pistol. That is how they get mis-matched.


How much do you think a mismatch would go for?

jrs93accord
12-27-2010, 16:16
How much do you think a mismatch would go for?

Depending on condition and the combination, $500-$1500. Union, Switch & Signal and Singer are the rarest and will command higher prices. Colt, Remington Rand, and Ithaca are the most common you come across. The real value is what you place on it. I paid $1800 for my original 1919 Colt 1911. It was worth every penny. The guy I bought it from saved it from being modified by its previous owner. The gun originally belonged to the soldier who carried it in WWII. History is priceless.

craig19
12-27-2010, 16:18
I hear you. Thanks for the info.

Hokie1911
12-27-2010, 16:41
Hey James, do remember who that GI replica Brian posted a while back? They were $1,800ish.

Those Singer prices are outrageous.

tango44
12-27-2010, 16:42
type remington rang in gun broker and a lot of stuff comes out!

jrs93accord
12-27-2010, 17:48
Hey James, do remember who that GI replica Brian posted a while back? They were $1,800ish.

............

It is made by U.S. Firearms in Hartford, CT. I went to the website, but there is nothing on them anymore. It is a beautifully crafted pistol. The finish alone is spectacular.

Hokie1911
12-27-2010, 17:55
type remington rang in gun broker and a lot of stuff comes out!

Also try "Remington Rand". :whistling:

bac1023
12-27-2010, 18:35
Wow...I could afford the $1k+, but is just doesn't have that much value to me. Heck, a few $ more and I could get a low end Wilson Combat.

Comparing a USGI to a Wilson is apples and oranges.

The USGI will never be what the Wilson is and vice-versa.

thecableguy
12-27-2010, 19:41
Also try "Remington Rand". :whistling:

:animlol::animlol::rofl:

jrs93accord
12-27-2010, 20:29
Comparing a USGI to a Wilson is apples and oranges.

The USGI will never be what the Wilson is and vice-versa.

What Brian said. :cool:

pm666
12-27-2010, 20:30
Comparing a USGI to a Wilson is apples and oranges.

The USGI will never be what the Wilson is and vice-versa.

You are absolutely correct, I lost my head for a minute.

pm666
12-27-2010, 20:46
If it has United States Property and US Army on it, does that mean it was a WWII era 1911? This one "looks" sweet, but I wouldn't know it's authenticity.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=207451782

bac1023
12-27-2010, 20:53
Without checking the serial number, it appears to be.

pm666
12-27-2010, 21:02
Without checking the serial number, it appears to be.

As they saying goes, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
So, can I check that serial number online somehow (hopefully for free)?

Thanks...

pm666
12-27-2010, 21:08
Found a website...I don't know what this means though.SERIAL NUMBER 1,454,7XX

22) Colt: S/N 857,000 to 1,609,529 = 1943 (S/N's 856,405 to 916,404 were
duplicated by Ithaca look for "F.J.A." Ithaca inspection initials. S/N's 1,041,405 to
1,096,404 were duplicated by Union Switch & Signal. Look for "RCD" US&S
inspection initials.)

23) Colt: (Commercial/Military Model) S/N 857,000 to 1,609,529 = 1943
(approx. 6,575 Commercial models were converted to military production.
Colt stop it's commercial production at S/N C215,083)

24) Colt: S/N 1,609,529 to 1,743,846 = 1944

jrs93accord
12-28-2010, 02:57
Looks like the serial number matches up to an Ithaca made in 1944. It appears to be Colt slide on an Ithaca frame that has been reparked.

The "RIA" on the right side of the frame tells you that it has been rearsenaled at the Rock Island Arsenal and was inspected by "FK".

MajorD
12-28-2010, 12:58
usgi guns will usually be very reliable from the get go with regular 230 gr hardball- what they were designed to use- and limited shooting of a properly lubricated original will not hurt it- consider both ww1 and 2 era guns- a mixmaster can usually be found for under 1k or you can get the colt ww1 repro brand new. the colt has all the military property markings and stuff and is made in the usa unlike all the other ones around today. and colt saa 3rd gens do have old school sights- you may have seen a "new frontier" with adjustable sights. the saa are around for roughly a grand in good shape too.

MajorD
12-28-2010, 13:15
as far as where the 1911's (and 1911A1's) went- there were only about 4 million total built for the gov., after ww1, some limited numbers were sold as surplus, then the same after ww2 with many being bubba'd into target guns refinished with bumper chrome and variously other wise abused/destroyed. About 1/3 were lost in combat and the remainder went thru so many rebuilds that many simply wore out. about another 1/3 were given away in foreign aid programs around the world- by the time of the 1911's replacement there were under 100k in U.S. inventory and many of those when inspected were scrapped for being out of spec.

MajorD
12-28-2010, 13:24
alluded to by other posters- the 1911 (WW1) and 1911A1(ww2) in order of most to least common makers of original GI guns:
WW1:
Colt
Springfield (not the current springfield)
Remington UMC
(sample pistols were made by Canadian North American Arms but never accepted for full production)
WW2:
Remington rand(the typewriter company NOT the Remington gun company)
Colt
Ithaca
Union Switch and signal Corp.
Singer
it is pretty common to find a WW1 frame with later rebuild components.

deadite
12-28-2010, 19:11
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq15/deadite_photos/guns%20with%20new%20camera/DSCN1997.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq15/deadite_photos/guns%20with%20new%20camera/DSCN0454.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq15/deadite_photos/guns%20with%20new%20camera/DSCN0443.jpg

This one is a Colt from WWI that was made in 1918. I got it for free. My mentor who was a WWII vet in the Army Air Corp gave it to me.

deadite

Hokie1911
12-28-2010, 19:53
That's freaking AWESOME, Deadite.

craig19
12-28-2010, 20:34
Very, very nice.

deadite
12-28-2010, 21:02
That's freaking AWESOME, Deadite.

Thanks, Hokie!

deadite