.44 Mag or .45-70? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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-RAVSKIN-
12-27-2010, 11:35
May be a stupid question, but I'm asking anyway.....

I have my heart set on a new lever action rifle. I have my Mossy for home defense, Kimber RCP for carry, and a M&P 15-22 for plinking and small critters. Now I need one rifle/carbine to fill the need of a wilderness defense/hunting rifle. I'm not a hunter, but I want something that will fill that need if it should arise. I would like to be able to take medium sized game like whitetail without completely obliterating any usable meat, but also have enough stopping power to drop a brown bear when I'm fishing in Northern ID.

* The two options that I'm looking at right now are the Henry Big Boy .44 Mag, which holds 10+1.

* The other is the Marlin 1895SBL .45-70, and holds 6+1.

I've read that the .45-70 doesn't kick as hard as you might think, and that the 300 grain loads make it a relatively comfortable gun to shoot.

Any thoughts, reviews, experiences, etc, with these two guns? Given the needs that I would be asking it to fill, which would you choose? Pros/Cons of either? If you were to find yourself in a do-or-die situation against a Brown, would you feel confident in 10 rounds of .44 Mag to stop it, or would you rather take the 6 rounds of .45-70? Thanks in advance for your input.......

DustyJacket
12-27-2010, 11:40
I love the .45-70 cartridge.
I had a Ruger #1 and a TC Contender in that loading.

I prefer the heavier/slower loads (Remington 405gr JSP or Lead 500gr handloads).

Some of the 300 grain commercial loads can kick very hard.

(.45-70 was my short-range (up to 150 yards) hunting load, with a scoped .270 for a flatter shooting long distance load)

G29Reload
12-27-2010, 12:41
I own both the calibers.

in 45-70, a Marlin 1895G, bought just for bear defense. The Alaskans say its unparalleled bear stopper, especially close in.

A 44 mag will work, in both pistol and rifle, but ammo is KEY. The ticket is harcast lead. In both calibers.

In 44 mag, a 240gr HP people eater won't get it done, except maybe on a small blackie.

If you do not reload, google Garrett ammo. They specialize in only 44mag and 4570.

If you reload, use Cast Performance.

If you have a 240-300gr hardcast lead in a Ruger redhawk 44m, you should be relatively safe.

If you have a MArlin 1894 in 44m, the twist in the barrels will only stabilze up to 270 grains. But, with a 240-250gr hardcast, you will move the velocity up to 1900FPS from pistol. And youve got 10.

Even in the 4570 guide gun, use hardcast. You need it to bean the bear in the skull and crack him good. use at least a 405gr.

I would rather be stuck in AK with a 357mag with hardcast, than a 44mag with HP's. Again, its the ammo thats the difference.

-RAVSKIN-
12-27-2010, 15:25
I own both the calibers.

in 45-70, a Marlin 1895G, bought just for bear defense. The Alaskans say its unparalleled bear stopper, especially close in.

A 44 mag will work, in both pistol and rifle, but ammo is KEY. The ticket is harcast lead. In both calibers.

In 44 mag, a 240gr HP people eater won't get it done, except maybe on a small blackie.

If you do not reload, google Garrett ammo. They specialize in only 44mag and 4570.

If you reload, use Cast Performance.

If you have a 240-300gr hardcast lead in a Ruger redhawk 44m, you should be relatively safe.

If you have a MArlin 1894 in 44m, the twist in the barrels will only stabilze up to 270 grains. But, with a 240-250gr hardcast, you will move the velocity up to 1900FPS from pistol. And youve got 10.

Even in the 4570 guide gun, use hardcast. You need it to bean the bear in the skull and crack him good. use at least a 405gr.

I would rather be stuck in AK with a 357mag with hardcast, than a 44mag with HP's. Again, its the ammo thats the difference.

Thanks for your input - which reinforces everything I've read to this point: For Browns, you need maximum penetration, and the HP's will typically barely penetrate through the fatty outer layer, if at all. I've read several accounts of Browns being taken, and having multiple healed .44 Mag HP wounds found embedded superficially in the fatty layer.

I like the idea of the .45-70, but having 10+1 rounds would be comforting as well.

How will the .45-70 do against Whitetail? As I said, I'm not a hunter, but I'd like to have the ability should the need arise, and I don't want to nuke a potential meal. .45-70 = overkill?

So, as far as Browns go, either gun will suffice, provided that the load is appropriately accounted for.

-RAVSKIN-
12-27-2010, 15:26
I love the .45-70 cartridge.
I had a Ruger #1 and a TC Contender in that loading.

I prefer the heavier/slower loads (Remington 405gr JSP or Lead 500gr handloads).

Some of the 300 grain commercial loads can kick very hard.

(.45-70 was my short-range (up to 150 yards) hunting load, with a scoped .270 for a flatter shooting long distance load)

Thanks for you input as well....

Zombie Steve
12-27-2010, 15:33
I have an 1894 Marlin / .44 mag, and it's a great gun for this stretch of the Rockies, but I think the magic words in your OP were "brown bear". I'd go .45-70.

-RAVSKIN-
12-27-2010, 15:41
I have an 1894 Marlin / .44 mag, and it's a great gun for this stretch of the Rockies, but I think the magic words in your OP were "brown bear". I'd go .45-70.

But that leads me to the other part of the equation - would the .45-70 be overkill for Whitetail? I'd like to be able to salvage enough meat to justify dropping the creature.

Zombie Steve
12-27-2010, 15:54
You won't ruin too much meat if you're putting the round where it's supposed to go. There's a huge range you'll have available to you, particularly if you handload. You can push a 300 grain bullet 1,500 fps (trapdoor springfield data) on up to 2,200 fps if you're loading for Marlin data. There's even another tier up for falling block actions if you had one of those (like a Ruger #1).

-RAVSKIN-
12-27-2010, 15:55
You won't ruin too much meat if you're putting the round where it's supposed to go. There's a huge range you'll have available to you, particularly if you handload. You can push a 300 grain bullet 1,500 fps (trapdoor springfield data) on up to 2,200 fps if you're loading for Marlin data. There's even another tier up for falling block actions if you had one of those (like a Ruger #1).

Awesome - Thanks for the input!

Zombie Steve
12-27-2010, 17:22
It's more than necessary for a white tail, but then again, so is a .30-06.

K.Kiser
12-27-2010, 20:43
I'd pick the 45-70, it is by far the superior round especially if you ever decide to reload because that's where it shines... Although you can get away with less on whitetail at reasonable distances, I don't think you ruin a whole lot of meat... The 45-70 doesn't really have a void to fill with deer with it's more than ample energy, yet poor trajectory it's not a real player in the deer world but I could see it having a valuable job in bear country where a heavy hitter at close range is important... Hi velocity rounds that deliver a bunch of shock to the animal ruins meat more than anything... The worst damage to a whitetail that I've seen came for a 7mm/120 grain bullet traveling at the speed of infinity, and I've seen them hit with everything from a .220 swift to a 416 Remington mag and a considerable amount of wildcat cartridges in between... That being said, we don't have any bears around here and I'd still like a 45-70 just for the helluvit...

gruntmedik
12-27-2010, 20:56
I have taken a few deer with a 45-70, and there was no more bloodshot meat than with my 308. The last 2 were with the LeveRevolution ammo.

vafish
12-27-2010, 22:25
I love the .44 mag, have used it a lot in handguns to kill deer and even one small black bear.

But if big brown bears are a possibility I'd carry the .45-70 in a heartbeat.

-RAVSKIN-
12-28-2010, 11:03
Thanks for all of the input fellas - I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts.

I'll likely be looking for a deal on the Marlin .45-70 in the near future. I'm not a big fan of the checkering, but otherwise, I think she's beautiful...
https://billstclair.com/blog/images/marlin-1895sbl.jpg

K.Kiser
12-28-2010, 18:05
Excellent choice for moderate pressure rounds and quick follow-up shots...

K.Kiser
12-28-2010, 18:09
I'm not trying to be a nagging thorn, but I am curious if you are set on a lever action vs. bolt action..?

-RAVSKIN-
12-29-2010, 11:54
I'm not trying to be a nagging thorn, but I am curious if you are set on a lever action vs. bolt action..?

I am set on a lever action. Why? At the core, it's probably just because I grew up on some good westerns. I do like the "feel" though - something just feels right about it.

K.Kiser
12-29-2010, 16:28
I am set on a lever action. Why? At the core, it's probably just because I grew up on some good westerns. I do like the "feel" though - something just feels right about it.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that, I like the levers myself for certain things... If ever for some reason you'd like to look around, you can find some bolt guns that will handle more case pressure than a lever and are offered in some real deal game stopping cartridges and a bolt gun still has some nice follow-up shot speed... Again, I'm not knocking your choice at all because it is a very nice rifle that will do it's job when needed...

noway
12-31-2010, 11:27
It's more than necessary for a white tail, but then again, so is a .30-06.

Thank you, so true.


On how much you damage is going to be determine by distance, location shot and more or so the bullet used. A 45-70 is not needed for WT-deer imho.

paidfor
12-31-2010, 16:23
I have been hunting for 50 years now. I started with a lever 3030 and have shot every caliber up and down from the 30 caliber. I am in my mid 60's now, and about 5 years ago, I went back to the 3030 lever. I have a 44 lever that I shot for a few years but I still like the 3030. Light to carry. Kills any whitetail I want to shoot. Of course there are no bears in Texas, but if there were, I would be hunting with a 45/70.

-RAVSKIN-
12-31-2010, 16:44
Thank you, so true.


On how much you damage is going to be determine by distance, location shot and more or so the bullet used. A 45-70 is not needed for WT-deer imho.

I realize that it's a little overkill for deer - but I'm looking for my first hunting rifle, and wilderness defense is top priority. If I can adjust the loads accordingly, and still harvest a good portion of usable meat, then I think that the 45-70 will do until I can pick up a second rifle.

357glocker
12-31-2010, 17:57
If it's to fill a gap that you don't have then go with the 45-70.

Not much of a personal experience with either caliber you mention but if you're going to get a rifle then by all means "get a rifle"!

CanyonMan
01-01-2011, 10:35
The 45-70 is not needed for deer, but if your lookin to protect yourself from huge woods critters, or hunt elk/moose/big bruins someday... Go with the 45-70.

If you reload, you can still hunt deer with it by taming things way down.


These are for the really "Big stuff." My hand Loads: 405gr Rucker Hard Cast 45-70 about 1800fps

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/1005001755a.jpg


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/GT%20stuff/1005001756.jpg




Good luck with your decision. 44mag is plenty in a carbine for deer and small black bear with a good heavy xtp or hard cast bullet. (I prefer the latter in all my hunting guns). But XTP in a heavy grain in the 44 mag lever gun is a very nice choice. Dang, it'll fill and elk tag if ya get in close. 100yds and less. Although I do prefer the 45-70 over the 44mag (in a lever gun). It (45-70) would be best if you hand load though.....




Good luck




CM

csa 357
01-03-2011, 17:55
the 45-70 is not needed for deer but it kills them so good , they just melt! i use a 300 gr hp over a big dose of 3031, i cant tell you how manny deer i have killed with this combo and have killed a few at 200 plus yards! with heavy bullets it makes a great bear stopper too!

duncan
01-14-2011, 03:19
the 45-70 is not needed for deer but it kills them so good , they just melt! i use a 300 gr hp over a big dose of 3031, i cant tell you how manny deer i have killed with this combo and have killed a few at 200 plus yards! with heavy bullets it makes a great bear stopper too!

Makes me want to buy a Marlin like the one above. Beautiful carbine.

TheGrimReaper
01-14-2011, 10:22
.45-70 sure is hard to beat!

rfb45colt
01-30-2011, 10:38
.45-70 gets my vote... especially the Marlin Guide Gun. I love that rifle. As for ruining meat on a deer, that depends on bullet choice and shot placement. I reload and use 300 grain hardcast (Cast Performance) and they punch a clean hole right through the deer, and drop them in their tracks. They penetrate, not expand... but if your bullet is almost a half-inch in diamater (.458"), why do you need expansion?


edit: I also reload for .44 Mag & .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk revolvers. I use 300gr Cast Performance bullets for all 3 calibers. I've killed 8 deer total with those 2 handguns, and each and every one dropped in their tracks.... and I did not recover a single bullet. All were clean pass-throughs.

JSinAlaska
02-03-2011, 07:58
Thanks for all of the input fellas - I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts.

I'll likely be looking for a deal on the Marlin .45-70 in the near future. I'm not a big fan of the checkering, but otherwise, I think she's beautiful...
https://billstclair.com/blog/images/marlin-1895sbl.jpg

+1 for the Marlin .45-70 guide gun

I have the exact same rifle. I love it! Living in Alaska, I take it camping with me. It's simple, basic, and follow up shots are very quick. This is my first lever action, so it took some getting used to. I use Buffalo Bore Hardnose 405gr ammo. I chose those, simply because Grizzly/Brown bears have very thick bone and thick muscles groups, and wanted maximum penetration. I think for whitetail hunting, you can definetly find a lighter round. I carry a .44 mag pistol, but any pistol on a bear IMO is not ideal.
http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/jasonrschultz/marlin.jpg

firemedic1343
02-09-2011, 22:02
I hear the .45-70 is very popular in the northern parts of Alaska, a lot of guides love them.

JSinAlaska
02-11-2011, 00:24
I hear the .45-70 is very popular in the northern parts of Alaska, a lot of guides love them.


Yeah, not sure what the guides carry, I just like it because it's somewhat compact, easy to shoot quickly, holds 6+1, and I like the .45-70 round. I can easily carry it on my shoulder, truck, or 4 wheeler.