Lets compare .308 vs. 7.62x54 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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W420Hunter
12-29-2010, 23:57
Ok so I will start off by saying I have one of each. The .308 is a federal arms FA91, the other is a 7.62x54 mosin nagant. It may be worth noting the inner workings of the .308 has been changed out with H&K parts. I do not really have the range to test them out, hence turning to you guys. So I am looking to find out 2 things. First do they make a rifle that fires the 7.62x54 other then the mosin an the dragunov? Something a little more accurate? The other is how do the 2 rounds match up. What it comes down to is I want a mid to long rifle, thats not a .50.

W420Hunter
12-30-2010, 00:01
Here are the guns.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs002.snc6/165253_1486763369354_1242019095_1065690_5571131_n.jpg

rca256
12-30-2010, 00:02
Ok so I will start off by saying I have one of each. The .308 is a federal arms FA91, the other is a 7.62x54 mosin nagant. It may be worth noting the inner workings of the .308 has been changed out with H&K parts. I do not really have the range to test them out, hence turning to you guys. So I am looking to find out 2 things. First do they make a rifle that fires the 7.62x54 other then the mosin an the dragunov? Something a little more accurate? The other is how do the 2 rounds match up. What it comes down to is I want a mid to long rifle, thats not a .50.

Have you looked at the 300 WSM?

W420Hunter
12-30-2010, 00:04
No lol

W420Hunter
12-30-2010, 00:06
Let me edit this I am not looking for a bolt action. I know this will is going to get me some flack but I don't care.

Zombie Steve
12-30-2010, 00:08
Why would you want to get a rifle (other than mosin) that shoots a rimmed rifle cartridge?

.308 has a ton more platforms (bolt guns, AR-10 type, M1A), and is still supersonic at a grand. Do you really want or need more than that?

W420Hunter
12-30-2010, 00:16
Well truth be told the part about the mosin was more curiosity then anything. An it would be nice to have a round that large but still a good price to shoot an is more accurate. Or is the round it self the problem not the gun? An do I need it, chances are no, but its nice to have.

.45Super-Man
12-30-2010, 00:38
Why would you want to get a rifle (other than mosin) that shoots a rimmed rifle cartridge?

.308 has a ton more platforms (bolt guns, AR-10 type, M1A), and is still supersonic at a grand. Do you really want or need more than that?

The Russians and several Warsaw pact countries are still using that old rimmed round in several LMG's and sniper rifles and it will do everything the .308 can at a fraction of the price. I doubt that any rifle caliber in history has a higher body count. You may want to check out the Romanian PSL, which is basically a stretched out AK in 7.62x54r.

Zombie Steve
12-30-2010, 00:41
I'm trying to understand what you're asking...

The two rounds are really similar in performance. Both 30 caliber, both running around 2700 - 2900 fps depending on bullet and barrel length...

The big difference being one is a 110 year old commie rimmed round that is hard to find anything for other than milsurp ammo, the other is a 60 year old rimless American round that you can find anywhere in varmint, hunting, milsurp or match configurations... all boxer primed and easy to reload for.

Zombie Steve
12-30-2010, 00:44
The Russians and several Warsaw pact countries are still using that old rimmed round in several LMG's and sniper rifles and it will do everything the .308 can at a fraction of the price. I doubt that any rifle caliber in history has a higher body count. You may want to check out the Romanian PSL, which is basically a stretched out AK in 7.62x54r.

Not questioning the potency of the cartridge, just trying to figure out why you'd pick that cartridge for anything other than collecting com bloc rifles.

:dunno:

ctaggart
12-30-2010, 01:00
Maybe you could just put a good after market stock on your mosin have the barrel re-crowned and see where the accuracy goes from there.

.45Super-Man
12-30-2010, 01:01
Not questioning the potency of the cartridge, just trying to figure out why you'd pick that cartridge for anything other than collecting com bloc rifles.

:dunno:

You summed it up with your last post. The performance is equivalent and cheap surplus ammo is plentiful.

crazymoose
12-30-2010, 01:07
Let me edit this I am not looking for a bolt action. I know this will is going to get me some flack but I don't care.

Semi-auto, you're basically looking a the Dragunov, or the Romanian kinda, sorta Dragunovs (can't remember what they're called).

Your most accurate bet is probably going to be one of the Mosins which was captured by the Finns and re-barreled.
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breadstain
12-30-2010, 10:34
find an old svt-40. Try not to beat it up a whole lot if you get one.

Cavalry Doc
12-30-2010, 10:46
If accuracy is a big issue, there are plenty of off the shelf rifles in the AR varieties in many different calibers. They aren't cheap, but they do work very well.

Scratcha
03-23-2012, 13:25
Classicarms.us is now selling the Russian VEPR; which is available in 7.62X54.
I think it's a 22" or 23" barrel, I could be wrong about the barrel length.
These VEPRs are pretty rare guns in the U.S.
I was thinking about buying one; but I'm still trying to make-up my mind between the .308 and the russian 54.

Aceman
03-23-2012, 21:10
In this area, i have to vote .308

Too many platforms that are far better
Too many choices in type/style of ammo
Too easily available

Just your basic round to round comparison - they are very similar. Wouldn't matter. But everything else-wise, .308 all the way.

Decguns
03-23-2012, 21:26
In 7.62X54R you have the Romanian PSL, Russian VEPR, Russian SVT 38 & 40, Russian Tiger Carbine, Russian SV-98, Russian Record (Mosin), Finnish Mosins, etc...

If you want something Com-Bloc but in 308... you can always get a Saiga or Romanian PSL in 7.62 NATO.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n636/worland/100_1235.jpg

Veedubklown
03-24-2012, 19:58
Not questioning the potency of the cartridge, just trying to figure out why you'd pick that cartridge for anything other than collecting com bloc rifles.
:dunno:

That's the biggest reason, right there. Also, the mosin m91's are cheap, $100 at big-5. You can easily arm 4 people for $500. They're a fun rifle to tinker with, but that's about the gist of it. If you want something in semi-auto for 7.62x54r, your options are limited by your wallet and availability. .308 is a much more common platform. I had a mosin, my next high power rifle will be a .308.

PlasticGuy
03-24-2012, 20:08
I like the 7.62x54 a lot, and most of the guns that use it are excellent. That said, it would not be my choice for match grade accuracy. The .308 wins that game hands down, both because of the availability of many match/sniper grade loads and due to the large selection of guns that can take advantage of the high quality ammo.

WayaX
03-25-2012, 12:49
I like the 7.62x54 a lot, and most of the guns that use it are excellent. That said, it would not be my choice for match grade accuracy. The .308 wins that game hands down, both because of the availability of many match/sniper grade loads and due to the large selection of guns that can take advantage of the high quality ammo.

I tend to agree. 7.62x51 wins out for me due to selection (of both ammo and rifles), 7.62 Russian is a good round, and it's cheap, but your choice of weapons is limited.

.45Super-Man
03-25-2012, 17:30
The old rimmed round was accurate enough to force more than a few nazis into early retirement and the Finns used it against the russians in the winter war, against overwhelming odds. If you want proof of its effectiveness and capable accuracy, look no further.

Frog1
03-25-2012, 18:05
It's a great round due to the availabity of low cost surplus rifles. However, if you want to match the .308 in accuracy, you will have to spend at least as much on the quality of the rifle and to attain this in a semi auto configuration you can't match it. There is no semi auto in 7.62 x 54 as accurate as an AR-10, HK-91, M-14, or FAL. Simple enough.

fnfalman
03-25-2012, 18:22
FAL is anything but "accurate".

m2hmghb
03-25-2012, 18:42
Just to let you guys know the Russian's won Biathlon events with the 7.62x54R and a modified Mosin Nagant. Personally I'd look into a PSL first, get it worked on and accurized, and after that a VEPR.

eyelikeglasses
03-25-2012, 22:23
For a single rifle, go with .308, arming the inlaws, a few Mosin's, cheap 54r, and some cleaning kits.

7.62 x 39mm is roughly "equal" to the .30-.30:whistling:. I think it's a good lowest common denominator as far as performance, availability, power to weight ratio, etc. for me.:embarassed:

WarEagle32
03-25-2012, 23:23
Just about every 308 I've owned or shot was very accurate. I've shot 3 Mosins and they are the 3 worst high powered rifles that I have ever fired! If I was given one I'd sell it. Horrible Accuracy with the 7.62x54 and I can drive tacks with my AR 10, 700 remington and my Brothers M1A!

RedHaze
03-25-2012, 23:37
If you're considering the 7.62x54R. I highly suggest reading LG1's write-up on it!

Practical Prepardness - LG1's write up (http://pullig.dyndns.org/practicalpreps/forums3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=813)

vrex
03-26-2012, 10:44
Two of the best calibers of all time. Have both.

.45Super-Man
03-26-2012, 13:10
Simo Hayha wasnt using a.308(or a scope)and killed over 500 russians with his m28 mosin and suomi SMG, often engaging the enemy at 400 meters and beyond. He accomplished this in about 90 days and it happened long before the .308 even existed.

esh325
03-26-2012, 18:55
Simo Hayha wasnt using a.308(or a scope)and killed over 500 russians with his m28 mosin and suomi SMG, often engaging the enemy at 400 meters and beyond. He accomplished this in about 90 days and it happened long before the .308 even existed.
I don't really see any reason why he couldn't have done the same with a .308 rifle. The ballistics of both cartridges with standard military loadings are not very far off from each other.



I like eastern bloc firearms a lot, but the .308 is a better cartridge. It's not like a lot better, but it's better. It's rimless,a bit shorter, and is much more diverse in terms of ammo. There are also more choices in .308 firearms.

Novocaine
03-27-2012, 01:40
There are still match rifles built on old Mosin actions. Belarus does it at very least. The process starts with an athlete and his gunsmith going to the armory and test-firing hundreds of rifles to select a few for further work and eventually end up with one. Itís a tedious and time consuming process, most of the exceptional barreled actions have already been used to build snipers during the war.
Other than that, whatever import youíre getting itís a crapshoot. Exception being real Soviet snipers (>$1K) and Finnish carbines.

Soviet designers hated the cartridge with passion since before the Finnish war: it made magazine fed designs total PITA and high RPM aviation MGs less efficient. After the war it gave designers headache whether developing magazine fed sniper rifles or even belt-fed GPMG. Also while newer more accurate loads were developed the military designs were limited to old standards to keep the trajectories compatible with sight settings on the pre-existing hardware. SVD is not as accurate as it could be for this reason, the twist rate is optimized for the old and armor piercing loads, not for the latest and greatest (of the day).

Given choices .308 gives I donít see how this is even an issue.

Frog1
03-27-2012, 05:08
FAL is anything but "accurate".


I will agree when compared to the rifles I mentioned before it. But compared to any Semi-Auto in 7.62x54, a Fal is a major step up. An accurized Fal will shoot as well as an a std M-14.

The guy who has been watching the history channel needs to recognize that any high power rifle can hit a man sized targets at several hundred yards if the driver knows what he is doing. That doesn't place the cartridge at the top of the list for accuracy. I believe the 7.62 x 54R can be very accurate. The problem is that there are limited rifles to demonstrate that attribute.

The AR10 is the most accurate platform for any Semi-Auto in any caliber. It is that simple.

m2hmghb
03-27-2012, 06:53
I will agree when compared to the rifles I mentioned before it. But compared to any Semi-Auto in 7.62x54, a Fal is a major step up. An accurized Fal will shoot as well as an a std M-14.

The guy who has been watching the history channel needs to recognize that any high power rifle can hit a man sized targets at several hundred yards if the driver knows what he is doing. That doesn't place the cartridge at the top of the list for accuracy. I believe the 7.62 x 54R can be very accurate. The problem is that there are limited rifles to demonstrate that attribute.

The AR10 is the most accurate platform for any Semi-Auto in any caliber. It is that simple.

I think the PSG1 would give the AR10 a run for its money. Then there is the WA2000 rifle.

crazymoose
03-27-2012, 07:32
I think the PSG1 would give the AR10 a run for its money. Then there is the WA2000 rifle.

Absolutely they will, but the question is why bother? If you put enough work and money into it, you can accurize just about any firearm. Both the PSG1 and the Walther start at about $10,000 (and for the Walther, that was 1980's dollars; they now go for $40K-80K). One could easily buy a $1,200 AR-10, spend $800 on a match barrel and free-floating fore-ed, and have a rifle for two large that shoots as well as or better than the others. Alternately, one could just buy something like an OBR and call it a day.

esh325
03-28-2012, 09:35
There are still match rifles built on old Mosin actions. Belarus does it at very least. The process starts with an athlete and his gunsmith going to the armory and test-firing hundreds of rifles to select a few for further work and eventually end up with one. Itís a tedious and time consuming process, most of the exceptional barreled actions have already been used to build snipers during the war.
Other than that, whatever import youíre getting itís a crapshoot. Exception being real Soviet snipers (>$1K) and Finnish carbines.

Soviet designers hated the cartridge with passion since before the Finnish war: it made magazine fed designs total PITA and high RPM aviation MGs less efficient. After the war it gave designers headache whether developing magazine fed sniper rifles or even belt-fed GPMG. Also while newer more accurate loads were developed the military designs were limited to old standards to keep the trajectories compatible with sight settings on the pre-existing hardware. SVD is not as accurate as it could be for this reason, the twist rate is optimized for the old and armor piercing loads, not for the latest and greatest (of the day).

Given choices .308 gives I donít see how this is even an issue.
From what I understand, the Russians tried to replace the 54R for years with 6x49 rimless cartridge, but it compromised with the fall of the USSR. Perhaps they will try again in the future replacing the 54R