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banger
01-02-2011, 10:13
In this day of a bewildering array of A.R. manufacturers, how can it be that no one makes an A-1 style upper, let alone complete rifle.

I would be the first on line for an origional style barrel in the 1:12 twist and triangular hand guards, with tho old style upper. My preference would be to an A-1 upper, but even an old style smooth side would be nice.

It seems to me that even if I am requesting a niche market item, there would be enough business to make a profit.

After all, look at all those makers chasing EXACTLY the same market with EXACTLY the same rifles.

boomhower
01-02-2011, 11:39
They make what the market wants. If there was enough demand for it someone would make it. Right now the market wants "tactical" rifles so that's what they are making.

RMTactical
01-02-2011, 11:42
In this day of a bewildering array of A.R. manufacturers, how can it be that no one makes an A-1 style upper, let alone complete rifle.

I would be the first on line for an origional style barrel in the 1:12 twist and triangular hand guards, with tho old style upper. My preference would be to an A-1 upper, but even an old style smooth side would be nice.

It seems to me that even if I am requesting a niche market item, there would be enough business to make a profit.

After all, look at all those makers chasing EXACTLY the same market with EXACTLY the same rifles.

I can appreciate the old school rifles but the bottom line is they just aren't as good as the modern version.

I can understand if a company wanted to make a retro looking upper but why would you want a 1/12 twist?

zhix
01-02-2011, 11:55
I would also like to see someone make a complete A1, but everyone wanted m4 type carbines and now mid-length with pinned flash hiders, which I don't particularly prefer either of those but that's what's popular.

USMC03Grunt
01-02-2011, 16:02
Ya gotta build them yourself these days. AR15.com's EE pages, Shotgun News advertisers, gun shows and of course the correct Nodak Spud lowers are a must have item and you can come up with some pretty decent results!:cool:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/USMCGruntUSAFCATM/Firearms/Rifles/AR-15%20601%20series/DCP_1810.jpg
The 601...the AR that started it all an yes, other than the NDS lower and fire control group, it's all original right down to it's 1:14" twist barrel.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/USMCGruntUSAFCATM/Firearms/Rifles/DCP_1976.jpg
The early 603 also known as the XM-16E1. In the pre-chrome chamber and barrel days, corrosion from the humidity of SEA led to stuck casings in the chamber and various improvised methods of attaching a cleaning rod to knock out those stuck casings came about. In this case, a small hole drilled into the handguard that allows the cleaning rod to be assembled and inserted or immediate action if needed.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/USMCGruntUSAFCATM/Firearms/Rifles/DCP_1979.jpg
The 604 was the Air Force rifle. The Air Force didn't think it was necessary to have a forward assist while the Army insisted that it did have to have one with the Marines not caring really which way things went. This is an example of the early 604 with the improved 3-prong suppressor and chrome bolt carrier group.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/USMCGruntUSAFCATM/Firearms/Rifles/DCP_1792.jpg
The late 603 that served up to the time of the A2. Chrome bores and chambers were now standard and the improved 3-prong suppressor gave way to the bird cage suppressor. The chrome bolt carrier groups went away and were replaced with the phosphate coated variety we see today. Also the buttstock was redesigned to have a compartment for a cleaning kit the early 603 rifles lacked.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/USMCGruntUSAFCATM/Firearms/Rifles/DCP_1974.jpg
Not really retro here but the early versions of the A2 were slightly different than what you see today. The finish was more of a gray color rather than the black you see today and the pistol grips were slightly different. I can't find any literature to back this point up but I remember during my time in the Marines in the late 80s having this same sort of configuration rather than the typical pistol grip you see on A2s and M4s today. Other minor details include the earlier big head forward assist button and peel washers used to time the compensator rather than the more modern crush washer used today.

I still have a late model 604 upper with the phosphate slick side bolt carrier and bird cage flash suppressor that I will eventually get around to building with another Nodak Spud M-16A1 lower but I'm still getting some of the other small parts and looking for a good Colt 3X20 scope this one will wear. Yes, RBRD (Retro Black Rifle Disease) is an affliction one tends to suffer and is often confused for OCD when owners insist even the smallest details are not over-looked. It's not a cheap disease by any means especially when one rifle turns into several and it also requires patience in finding the perfect part.

zhix
01-02-2011, 20:17
Those are very nice. The closest I have so far to anything retro-looking is a newer Colt 6540 9mm AR-15 carbine. It came with an a1 upper and no forward assist, then I got rid of the chopped 9mm port door for a standard port cover and replaced the currnet m4-type stock with a fiberlite kind. So with the exception of the full fence lower reciever it looks somewhat like an a1 carbine without the 9mm mag in it. I also got rid of the M4 handguards which I hate and replaced them with the shiny black Colt handguards, which I was surprised to find still available, though not cheap.

I also recently saw that there are also some supposed surplus A2 M-16 kits now available.

Bushflyr
01-02-2011, 20:27
All the parts are right there. Just roll your own. I'd say the sales are about 1000 to 1 in favor of A4 CAR's vs. A1's. Too small to stock. If you don't want to do your own any builder will do it for you. Just ask.

Paul7
01-03-2011, 17:10
I can appreciate the old school rifles but the bottom line is they just aren't as good as the modern ones.

That's a matter of opinion. I prefer the triangular handguard, shorter stock, and lighter weight of the A1. It kind of defeats one of the advantages of the 5.56 round when some of the later rifles are in the 8 lb. range.

RMTactical
01-03-2011, 17:18
That's a matter of opinion. I prefer the triangular handguard, shorter stock, and lighter weight of the A1. It kind of defeats one of the advantages of the 5.56 round when some of the later rifles are in the 8 lb. range.

Some of these things could be a matter of opinion. Some are fact. There is a difference. You can get shorter stocks and lighter barrels on current manufactured guns, not just old school guns.

cyrsequipment
01-03-2011, 18:40
Some of these things could be a matter of opinion. Some are fact. There is a difference. You can get shorter stocks and lighter barrels on current manufactured guns, not just old school guns.

Yes, but then they wouldn't have anything to whine about...

MisterPX
01-03-2011, 19:09
Banger, there's a whole subforum on these kinds of rifles at ar15.com, can probably tell oyu all you want to know.

mixflip
01-03-2011, 21:33
I always liked the look of the old school rifles. Some day I'll have an A1 and A2 just for fun.

Paul7
01-03-2011, 22:39
Some of these things could be a matter of opinion. Some are fact. There is a difference. You can get shorter stocks and lighter barrels on current manufactured guns, not just old school guns.

Do you have examples, and not just the rattling adjustable plastic stocks?

RMTactical
01-03-2011, 22:58
Do you have examples, and not just the rattling adjustable plastic stocks?

Sure. I already cited one in my original post here. 1/12 twist rate is just not good, 1/14, even worse. They unnecessarily limit your choice of ammo.

Chrome lining is better in a battle carbine, a newer feature than what you got in the first AR15/M16's.

Flat top uppers allow for far more versatility.

Newer AR15/M16 furniture is more durable. Not to mention the advantage of rounded handguards, which means you don't have two separate style pieces to work with your rifle, just two of the same type.

M4 feedramps make the guns more reliable.

Newer mags are more durable and reliable, have greater capacity.

You can even get newer polymer lowers that make the weapon weigh 1lb less than a standard lower would.

I really could go on and on. In short, newer rifles work better, tend to be more durable and reliable, and have more options available.

You can still have a lightweight, simple AR15 with all of the modern upgrades that make it better.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u87/RMTactical/SuperlightAR15build.jpg

I'd love to have an SP1 if one fell into my lap at the right price, but I wouldn't seek out a vintage style AR15 if I intended to use it for serious work.

Paul7
01-04-2011, 15:58
Sure. I already cited one in my original post here. 1/12 twist rate is just not good, 1/14, even worse. They unnecessarily limit your choice of ammo.

Chrome lining is better in a battle carbine, a newer feature than what you got in the first AR15/M16's.

Flat top uppers allow for far more versatility.

Newer AR15/M16 furniture is more durable. Not to mention the advantage of rounded handguards, which means you don't have two separate style pieces to work with your rifle, just two of the same type.

M4 feedramps make the guns more reliable.

Newer mags are more durable and reliable, have greater capacity.

You can even get newer polymer lowers that make the weapon weigh 1lb less than a standard lower would.

I really could go on and on. In short, newer rifles work better, tend to be more durable and reliable, and have more options available.

You can still have a lightweight, simple AR15 with all of the modern upgrades that make it better.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u87/RMTactical/SuperlightAR15build.jpg

I'd love to have an SP1 if one fell into my lap at the right price, but I wouldn't seek out a vintage style AR15 if I intended to use it for serious work.

The A1 I'm looking at is assembled from Colt parts with the exception of a new, 1:9 barrel. It isn't chrome lined, but that isn't a deal breaker for me, and I don't plan on getting optics. I don't need it for 'serious work', I plink about 1K rounds a year and keep it for SHTF purposes. If I do need it for that I have new mags on hand.

USMC03Grunt
01-04-2011, 17:25
Problem with the M-4s is all the rail space they have available. If there's rail space, somebody in the office higher than you tends to read the back pages of Soldier of Fortune magazine, see the latest gizmo they are selling and decides that's what their M4s need on them just to boost the weight a little more.:upeyes: Hell of it is is that they aren't the ones that have to carry all this extra garbage around!:steamed: If I had my choice to deploy with any weapon of my choosing, it would either be my plain old A2 or if I wanted something shorter, the GUU (727 for the non-Air Force types) that limit the amount of crap you can bolt on to these weapons making them bulky and heavier than a boat anchor!

lawman800
01-05-2011, 02:59
I'll sell you my original Colt SP-1 upper with the pencil barrel and fixed carrying handle with the shovel foot forward assist and triangular handguards.

Paul7
01-05-2011, 08:50
Problem with the M-4s is all the rail space they have available. If there's rail space, somebody in the office higher than you tends to read the back pages of Soldier of Fortune magazine, see the latest gizmo they are selling and decides that's what their M4s need on them just to boost the weight a little more.:upeyes: Hell of it is is that they aren't the ones that have to carry all this extra garbage around!:steamed: If I had my choice to deploy with any weapon of my choosing, it would either be my plain old A2 or if I wanted something shorter, the GUU (727 for the non-Air Force types) that limit the amount of crap you can bolt on to these weapons making them bulky and heavier than a boat anchor!

Yes, our enemy in Afghanistan seems to be giving us fits fits with beat-up, stock, non-tactical AKs.

Drew Furst
01-05-2011, 09:38
Century Arms has a hybrid A1 for sale. It has the forward assist, A2 pistol grip, and birdcage flash hider. But it has the A1 upper sights and triangular hand guard. Don't know about the barrel weight or twist rate, you can check it out for yourself.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

www.centuryarms.com (http://www.centuryarms.com)

Paul7
01-05-2011, 14:35
Century Arms has a hybrid A1 for sale. It has the forward assist, A2 pistol grip, and birdcage flash hider. But it has the A1 upper sights and triangular hand guard. Don't know about the barrel weight or twist rate, you can check it out for yourself.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

www.centuryarms.com (http://www.centuryarms.com)

It weighs a lot more than an A1, over 8 lbs.

Gunnut 45/454
01-05-2011, 15:22
banger
The A1 is more old school then I want! I have two A2's ! I like very much the easy of the A2 in sight adjustment! The A1 was just not as user freindly as the A2! I like having REAL irons as back up! As for getting a new A1 system I think it's going to be hard to find unless you build one! Buying a used one might be a better idea!:supergrin: