AR15 pistols - Please school me [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Tech knight
01-06-2011, 22:08
Who makes good ones? I'm thinking for a fun range toy and it would be nice and easy to put in a bag and have 5.56 in a small package.

I'm only guessing here, but 5.56 in a 10" barrel or so is far more powerful then a handgun round. with a sling and resting against your cheek I'm guessing fairly easy 100-150 yard shots are obtainable?

How much do they run and are they just called an AR15 pistol?

I'm considering something like this or a Kel-tec SU16 folder. I would like to have the 5.56 and I'm thinking the SU16 would be accurate at longer distances, but I'm unsure of the build quality and the price is not cheap.

I've read that carbine AR's have more issues then mid lengths. Are those issues worse with the handguns?

Reswob
01-06-2011, 23:31
RRA makes one. Other than that I think you have to roll your own. Several companies sell 7-11" uppers.

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=231

Quigley
01-06-2011, 23:33
I like the idea the the Kel-tec PLR-16 (http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pistols/plr-16/). I have read several review of them on line and watched a few Youtube videos and from what I can tell they seem pretty solid. Not a bad price tag either. Buds has them for $503.

Tech knight
01-06-2011, 23:40
Is there any way to attach the back part on the PLR-16? I'm kind of looking for a gun to take the place of a sub gun and ideally smaller is better if it's foldable etc like the sub 2000.

I'm looking for something I can easily have in a bag or store somewhere while hiking, camping, and bugging out :) I would like accuracy greater then a stand alone handgun though and perferbly better ballistics then 9mm.

Bushflyr
01-06-2011, 23:44
Looks like the magwell portions are the same between the pistol and rifle, if that's what you're asking. You'd have to see if KT would sell you the buttstock if you wanted to SBR it.

DPMS also makes the Kitty Kat upper. I have one and it's always purred like a kitten. ;)

Quigley
01-07-2011, 00:08
Is there any way to attach the back part on the PLR-16? I'm kind of looking for a gun to take the place of a sub gun and ideally smaller is better if it's foldable etc like the sub 2000.

I'm looking for something I can easily have in a bag or store somewhere while hiking, camping, and bugging out :) I would like accuracy greater then a stand alone handgun though and perferbly better ballistics then 9mm.

It would not be legal to have a stock on the PLR16 that would make it a SBR. any pistol you get would not be able to have a removable stock. Now you could get a rifle with a folding stock like the Sub200, an Underfold AK, SU16, etc

Tech knight
01-07-2011, 00:27
I'm looking more for an AR pistol that has the spring part that goes off the back so it can be used to help aim. Not a full stock on the handgun models.

tx787
01-07-2011, 00:51
Smith and Wesson but I strongly recommend getting a rifle instead the pistols only exist due to the quirks in US law and really make no sense. You can do a lot more with a rifle and if you really want a shorter barrel get a Class II.

lawman800
01-07-2011, 01:52
In CA, there is no legal SBR or SBS unless you go C&R which is kinda retarded since you have to cut down a SVT-40 or something if you want a short semi-auto SBR. What's the point? Who would want to cut down a Mosin-Nagant to have a bolt SBR?

That's a reason why AR pistols are popular here, because the SBR route is just out of the realm of possibility. Others might not want to go through the Class 3 route or their CLEO won't sign off and they don't have the wherewithal to do a trust.

Buying an AR pistol is a simple, albeit pointless and not really even relevant, way to sorta play with an upper that is for all purposes a Class 3 SBR. Because if you don't have a pistol lower or a complete AR pistol, then you might run afoul of that constructive possession part of violating the NFA for Class 3 firearms when you have a SBR upper and rifle lowers, even if you never ever put them together.

Don't take my word for it. I am no expert on Class 3 NFA laws but I have heard enough horror stories to know I am not messing with any of it.

Tech knight
01-07-2011, 11:04
This could still possibly be useful. I might have to get lengths and such. I was thinking it could be a useful sub gun with more power then some of the other handgun calibers.

I'm not so sure now though.

Bushflyr
01-07-2011, 12:14
They're a ton of fun and do have their place.

You just have to select the right load and know the limitations of the weapon.

See THIS POST (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39755) for an informal test of a 7.5"

cyrsequipment
01-07-2011, 15:13
I have a 10in SBR, I think it is a lot of fun to shoot.

You do have to be careful when "building one", if the lower is not marked as a pistol and you configure it as a pistol, you've created an illegal weapon. The taxes for a pistol and a rifle are different (pistol is more expensive, tax wise) so if you create a pistol with a rifle receiver, then you are violating the law. You CAN however, turn a pistol into a rifle without problems as long as you put a long enough barrel on it.

There are many companies that do sell receivers that are taxed as pistols so if you get one of those, you can do a pistol build without running afoul of the law.

Reswob
01-07-2011, 16:04
I have a 10in SBR, I think it is a lot of fun to shoot.

You do have to be careful when "building one", if the lower is not marked as a pistol and you configure it as a pistol, you've created an illegal weapon. The taxes for a pistol and a rifle are different (pistol is more expensive, tax wise) so if you create a pistol with a rifle receiver, then you are violating the law. You CAN however, turn a pistol into a rifle without problems as long as you put a long enough barrel on it.

There are many companies that do sell receivers that are taxed as pistols so if you get one of those, you can do a pistol build without running afoul of the law.

Unless that is some silly Maine law, it's completely untrue. Since the new 4473's a couple years ago, when you a buy a stripped lower it is sold to you as a "frame/receiver", not a rifle or pistol. You can build it however you want, and it certainly doesn't need to have the word "pistol" on the side of it.

lawman800
01-07-2011, 16:14
It probably is. CA has the same law as our pistols are registered, but long guns are not. The AR pistol is also not on an approved list of guns for civilians to buy so civilians who want an AR pistol has to buy it from a dealer who converted it to a single shot, then convert it back to a fixed magazine 10 rounder. Which is retarded since once you buy it, you can convert it back but just not retail.

Whatever. As a LEO, I can buy a stripped lower and register it as a pistol, but only specially licensed gun dealers can do that. Not every dealer can register an AR pistol lower. Confused yet?

I hate this state.

tel0004
01-07-2011, 21:05
I shot a Kel-Tec PLR-16 today, and I was less than impressed. The gun functioned fine, but its just very difficult to get a really good shot without the support of a buttstock. I could probably shoot my glock pistol better than an AR pistol (granted I have years of experience with standard pistols, and shot an AR type pistol for the first time today).

I wan't really impressed, and after one magazine, I was ready to go back to shooting my AR-15. I realize SBR's are illegal in many parts of the country, but if that is the case, I would rather just have a 14.5" barrel, and pin a compensator/supressor. I'm not trying to talk you out of it, or ridicule anybody who owns an AR pistol, I'm just giving you my experience based on one trip to the range, and one magazine. Maybe I didn't give it a fair chance, but there were other toys I wanted to play with today.

Tech knight
01-07-2011, 21:11
I was trying to get by the extra cost of a SBR. I'm thinking more and more that maybe the SU16 with the folding stock and short barrel could be a better gun that could be put in a backpack or case then an AR pistol.

duncan
01-08-2011, 01:06
I like the idea the the Kel-tec PLR-16 (http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pistols/plr-16/). I have read several review of them on line and watched a few Youtube videos and from what I can tell they seem pretty solid. Not a bad price tag either. Buds has them for $503.

NOT an AR-15 pistol!

This one is . . .

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2010-1/1352935/AR-15_45acp_pistol_cp.jpg

An Olympic Arms AR-15 in 45 ACP. Custom 7.5" barrel. I can shoot it anywhere and load 45 ACP and 45 Super too!

And they will set you up with an DI standard 223 AR-15 pistol or other pistol caliber rounds like 9mm, 40SW, or even 10mm.

Talk about fun:tongueout:

duncan
01-08-2011, 01:10
Smith and Wesson but I strongly recommend getting a rifle instead the pistols only exist due to the quirks in US law and really make no sense. You can do a lot more with a rifle and if you really want a shorter barrel get a Class II.

Not everyone lives in Texas or Arizona where you can get an SBR with a stock.

Here in WA State, we can have AR-15 pistols so a straight 8" pistol buffer tube is necessary.

My 45 ACP AR-15 pistol shoots my custom 1911 loads and the recoil and report is minimal.

The 223 pistols make huge fireballs, are loud and have some kick at the powders are rifle grade and burn slowly too.

duncan
01-08-2011, 01:34
This could still possibly be useful. I might have to get lengths and such. I was thinking it could be a useful sub gun with more power then some of the other handgun calibers.

I'm not so sure now though.

Exactly. The barrel in s G21 is 4.60" and a government-sized 1911 barrel is 5"

With a 7.5" barrel, you're gaining almost 3" of velocity opportunity and can drive a 230 grain Federal Hydrashok about 940 fps compared to 895 fps out of a "5 1911 barrel

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html

Carry 18 round magazines with those extra 50 or so fps

And with all of my rails, can add a Surefire flashlight, projected red laser dot for intimidation and anything else that will fit on a picatinny rail.

At the pistol range, it makes a lot of friends and is really fun to shoot. Really fun.

cyrsequipment
01-08-2011, 08:22
Unless that is some silly Maine law, it's completely untrue. Since the new 4473's a couple years ago, when you a buy a stripped lower it is sold to you as a "frame/receiver", not a rifle or pistol. You can build it however you want, and it certainly doesn't need to have the word "pistol" on the side of it.

Who said anything about the 4473? :dunno: I am talking about the tax issue of the receiver when it was manufactured as well as this law...

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode26/usc_sec_26_00005845----000-.html

and this is a quote from that link

(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;

That is also why if you buy a receiver listed as a pistol, it usually costs more because the tax the manufacturer has to pay is greater for a pistol.

humanguerrilla
01-08-2011, 08:33
Is there any way to attach the back part on the PLR-16? I'm kind of looking for a gun to take the place of a sub gun and ideally smaller is better if it's foldable etc like the sub 2000.

I'm looking for something I can easily have in a bag or store somewhere while hiking, camping, and bugging out :) I would like accuracy greater then a stand alone handgun though and perferbly better ballistics then 9mm.

KT makes a kit to attach an AR stock to a PLR and a stock and pistol grip to a su 16. The PLR conversion is an sbr and requires tax stamp.

Spike's Tactical cool buffer tube cover and pistol receiver extension that fits carbine spring.
http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2009/02/spikes-tactical-9mm-ar-15-pistol.html

duncan
01-08-2011, 19:56
Those Spikes pistol buffer tube covers are HOT.

lawman800
01-08-2011, 22:46
I would like it better if the spider wasn't red.

Reswob
01-08-2011, 23:04
Who said anything about the 4473? :dunno: I am talking about the tax issue of the receiver when it was manufactured as well as this law...

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode26/usc_sec_26_00005845----000-.html

and this is a quote from that link

(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;

That is also why if you buy a receiver listed as a pistol, it usually costs more because the tax the manufacturer has to pay is greater for a pistol.

What tax? Again I'm thinking this is some Maine thing, because around here we pay the same 5% sales tax on everything. I'd be calling the BBB and possibly police/VA dept. of taxation if a dealer tried to charge me a special "tax" on a stripped lower. Again, with the new 4473 you cannot purchase a stripped receiver as a "pistol", it gets marked as a "frame/receiver".

That quote is irrelevant, as an AR pistol is not a weapon made from a rifle (that would make it an unregistered SBR or AOW), it is a pistol made from a receiver that was never barreled and stocked as a rifle.

mac66
01-09-2011, 10:13
My 11.5" AR pistol with a carbine buffer tube (modified so it can't take a stock) can be shoulder fired easily. I've run drills with it and it is very functional. It is as close to a SBR as we can get here in Michigan. In addition it can be carried with a concealed pistol license.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/mac66/arpistol2.jpg

B.Reid
01-09-2011, 10:51
:wow:My 11.5" AR pistol with a carbine buffer tube (modified so it can't take a stock) can be shoulder fired easily. I've run drills with it and it is very functional. It is as close to a SBR as we can get here in Michigan. In addition it can be carried with a concealed pistol license.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/mac66/arpistol2.jpg

NeverMore1701
01-09-2011, 11:05
I'll probably ease in to my SBR with a pistol. Buy a receiver, build it into a pistol while the paperwork is processing, slap on a regular tube and stock when the stamp comes back.

Nakanokalronin
01-09-2011, 11:10
They're pretty neat. :thumbsup:

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/52/l_86db0980b924390a3a8be85e567883d3.jpg
http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/140/l_4536c1b5ac0840f6bfc3a10762783de5.jpg

cyrsequipment
01-09-2011, 12:26
What tax? Again I'm thinking this is some Maine thing, because around here we pay the same 5% sales tax on everything. I'd be calling the BBB and possibly police/VA dept. of taxation if a dealer tried to charge me a special "tax" on a stripped lower. Again, with the new 4473 you cannot purchase a stripped receiver as a "pistol", it gets marked as a "frame/receiver".

That quote is irrelevant, as an AR pistol is not a weapon made from a rifle (that would make it an unregistered SBR or AOW), it is a pistol made from a receiver that was never barreled and stocked as a rifle.

Oh my God...:wow:

Ok, let me try this again. When a gun (receiver) is MANUFACTURED (to be sold) there is a TAX imposed by the ATF (not Maine, VA or any other state). If the gun (receiver) is a rifle it is taxed at one rate (11%) and pistol is taxed at a different rate (10%)... To be fair I thought the pistol was more because they generally cost a few buck more, apparently that is not the case.

SO, if a receiver is manufactured to be a rifle, then it is considerd a RIFLE and if it is used to make a pistol, then is is subject to a $200 tax stamp, regardless of whether a stock is placed on it or not. This is the page on the ATF website that describes it...

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/identification-of-nfa-firearms.html#made-from-rifle

The relevant item is about halfway down the page it is specifically called "Weapon Made From a Rifle".

Now, to sum up, if a weapon is manufactured as a rifle it cannot legally be converted to a pistol unless you pay the $200 tax on it (which would be stupid because you can rather easily get AR lowers manufactured as pistols and they are generally a few bucks more)...

It is legal, without a stamp, to convert a pistol into a rifle (think the mec-tec uppers for glocks and 1911s). I'm not sure why, but I think it has something to do with the fact there were many guns manufactured before the Gun Control Act that could be both a pistol and a rifle, so those weapons ended up being considered a pistol... but I'm not sure about that.

Having said all that, the simple solution is just to buy a receiver that was manufactured as a pistol if one wants to build a pistol... I REALLY don't think that the ATF is running around looking to see what AR pistol receivers were manufactured as, but it never hurts to be safe.

Nakanokalronin
01-09-2011, 12:41
From a letter from the ATF on this subject

Utilizing the receiver of an existing rifle for the purposes of
manufacturing a handgun would constitute the making of a firearm as
defined above. Individuals desiring to make such a firearm must first
submit an ATF Form 1, Application To Make And Register a Firearm and
pay the applicable $200 making tax.

If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not
previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification
must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
its authenticity. Basically buy a stripped lower and use it for a pistol build. The ATF has stated that you cannot use an AR receiver that was built into a rifle first for a pistol build unless you pay the tax. Buy a stripped lower that was never built as anything and there is no tax involved in building it into a pistol.

cyrsequipment
01-09-2011, 14:35
From a letter from the ATF on this subject

Basically buy a stripped lower and use it for a pistol build. The ATF has stated that you cannot use an AR receiver that was built into a rifle first for a pistol build unless you pay the tax. Buy a stripped lower that was never built as anything and there is no tax involved in building it into a pistol.

Ok, that makes sense too, when was that letter dated?

Reswob
01-09-2011, 15:09
14 Jan, 2009

FatBoy
01-09-2011, 16:02
Oh my God...:wow:

Ok, let me try this again. When a gun (receiver) is MANUFACTURED (to be sold) there is a TAX imposed by the ATF (not Maine, VA or any other state). If the gun (receiver) is a rifle it is taxed at one rate (11%) and pistol is taxed at a different rate (10%)... To be fair I thought the pistol was more because they generally cost a few buck more, apparently that is not the case.

SO, if a receiver is manufactured to be a rifle, then it is considerd a RIFLE and if it is used to make a pistol, then is is subject to a $200 tax stamp, regardless of whether a stock is placed on it or not. This is the page on the ATF website that describes it...

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/identification-of-nfa-firearms.html#made-from-rifle

The relevant item is about halfway down the page it is specifically called "Weapon Made From a Rifle".

Now, to sum up, if a weapon is manufactured as a rifle it cannot legally be converted to a pistol unless you pay the $200 tax on it (which would be stupid because you can rather easily get AR lowers manufactured as pistols and they are generally a few bucks more)...

It is legal, without a stamp, to convert a pistol into a rifle (think the mec-tec uppers for glocks and 1911s). I'm not sure why, but I think it has something to do with the fact there were many guns manufactured before the Gun Control Act that could be both a pistol and a rifle, so those weapons ended up being considered a pistol... but I'm not sure about that.

Having said all that, the simple solution is just to buy a receiver that was manufactured as a pistol if one wants to build a pistol... I REALLY don't think that the ATF is running around looking to see what AR pistol receivers were manufactured as, but it never hurts to be safe.

A stripped lower is not a rifle and can be built into whatever you want w/o any tax issues. Assuming that it has never had a stock put on it. Even for "QC" related issues, so called "virgin" lower.

As for there being any funny Maine laws, there are not any, at least not on this issue.:whistling:

When I built mine I did get a "pistol" marked lower, as it was the same price, but it really is not needed.

Here are few pics....

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/7739/dsc00177i.jpg

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/5919/dsc00082ze9.jpg


if anyone cares.....
Anvil lower/LPK
Ace tube
H2 buffer
Bravo "auto" BCG
Sabre 10" bbl
DD Lite rail
ARMS FS
MBUS RS
"flaming pig" comp
Aimpoint M2/Larue mount

Yup, it's way over built. Someday the upper will be a SBR.

Runs fine w/ 55-75gr ammo.

FB