What's the real black talon story? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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PUNISHER56
01-07-2011, 07:58
Ok, most shooters have seen or read about the notorious "Black Talon"
ammo. What's the real story? It must be legal to own or sell, this forum
even has some for sale. But can you load it in your carry gun or target
shoot only? Or can you even load it in a gun period? At the prices this
ammo sells for is it really worth it?

NHmike
01-07-2011, 08:06
from what I understand, what I heard is they got some heat because the bullets are very destructive on people. There where complaints that they make to much of a mess. Again, that is what I heard and won't take it to the bank.

Eyescream
01-07-2011, 08:06
At the prices this
ammo sells for is it really worth it?

Hell no. People selling that for $80 and $90 a box are preying on the uninformed.

I understand it's basically the same bullet design as the Ranger T that I carry in my 9mm; and even the Ranger T is marked Law Enforcement Only, but that's a Winchester rule and not a law that you can be prosecuted for. [redacted] sells the stuff in most common defensive calibers when they've got it in, for example. Anybody can get it.

silversport
01-07-2011, 08:09
a very good bullet design that was pulled and renamed because of media hype...nothing more really...at the time there was another bullet that never came to pass...Black Rhino that was supposed to cut through body armor...hype...this was also the time when media hype tried to convince the sheeple that Glocks could not be detected at airports...

Bill

malleable
01-07-2011, 08:10
I believe it was pulled for political correctness and re branded with the "talons" becoming "petals" to appease the media etc.

Steff1
01-07-2011, 08:13
I thought it was the word "Black", due to it's racial reference. You can get the same bullet design in the Ranger line.

ducati
01-07-2011, 08:15
From what I recall Silversport is spot on.

Fed Five Oh
01-07-2011, 08:31
It is still available. It has a new name, therefore the world is a better place to live in.

bowtie454
01-07-2011, 08:34
The round caught the attention of the late, notoriously anti-gun Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan (D-N.Y., they guy who Hillary replaced). He gave a bunch of press conferences talking about how this evil round was designed to "tear the guts out of people" (complete with hand gestures). There were also a number of ER doctors yapping at the media about how dangerous these rounds are to them as the sharp edges could tear thier gloves and expose them to bodily fluids while they operate on gunshot victims. Due to the increasingly negative press, Winchester voluntarily pulled them from the market. They are legal to own, it was a voluntary decision by Winchester. The ammo disappeared from shelves virtually overnight when Winchester made the announcement due to hoarding (the operators at Midway USA actually answered the phone by asking if your order contained Winchester Black Talon ammunition since they sold out almost immediately after the announcement). Interestingly enough though, 10mm Black Talon ammo was still available for weeks after the announcement. If only I had owned my Glock 20 then....

From all of the reviews I read, they are great for hunting medium-sized game but had more penetration/less expansion than other high-zoot hollowpoints on the market at the time. I'd be willing to bet that rounds like the HST, Ranger-T, and Gold Dot are actually better suited for self-defense than the Black Talons were. The industry learned a few lessons from the Black Talon fiasco: do not use "evil" sounding names for your ammo and do not hype the destructiveness of them. Notice how benign modern ads are, touting "expansion", "penetration", and "self-defense"? No hype = no media attention.

The ammo is still legal to own (I have a couple of boxes in .357 myself), but I personally believe it's worth more as a conversation piece (footnote in firearms history) than as carry ammo. I certainly wouldn't pay any more for a box of it than a box of modern ammo. As I said above, there are several brands of current production self-defense ammo that are as good or better than Black Talons. Besides, would you actually want to use ammo that has such a negative image for self-defense? I have visions of press releases and videos of the late senator being played at my trial. Just my opinion.

p.s. If you are willing to pony up $90/box, I'd certainly be willing to part with mine!

whoflungdo
01-07-2011, 08:38
It was voluntarily pulled by Winchester after a train shooting in New York, I believe. It was both because of the name Black Talon and the uninformed media making it sound like they were more lethal than any other bullet design. At first Winchester pulled it from the civilian world and just sold it to LE. Then it was dropped all together and they developed the Ranger series.

I think lawsuits that were ultimately dismissed against Olin is what caused the name change.

doc540
01-07-2011, 09:04
It was voluntarily pulled by Winchester after a train shooting in New York, I believe. It was both because of the name Black Talon and the uninformed media making it sound like they were more lethal than any other bullet design. At first Winchester pulled it from the civilian world and just sold it to LE. Then it was dropped all together and they developed the Ranger series.

I think lawsuits that were ultimately dismissed against Olin is what caused the name change.

yep, train shooter in media capital of the world

read here:
http://www.thegunzone.com/black-talon.html

multiple articles here:
http://www.nytimes.com/keyword/black-talon

MrMurphy
01-07-2011, 10:23
The SXT in the modern Winchester line stands for Supreme Xpansion Talon i've heard.


Modern ammo has far surpassed the old BT's in performance.

tx787
01-07-2011, 10:26
Winchester first limited the ammo to LE only after the train shooting media frenzy (blaming the gun and the ammo not the shooter). They then took off the lubaloy coating and called it Ranger SXT (same exact thing). Winchester has subsequently updated the bullet and cartridge design, the current production Ranger T Series are actually better rounds.

Black Talon ammo has never been illegal to own or sell (unless prohibited by local law or unless you're a felon) however it has an allure since it's been banned and a limited supply so prices are high. I wouldn't want any simply becuase it's overpriced and if you use it for SD you're using ammo with a bad stigma for no reason when there's plenty of more modern and cheaper alternatives, Ranger-T, HST and Gold Dot.

ColCol
01-07-2011, 11:21
From what I recall reading some years back, the BT in 45 ACP was the one that made it's reputation. the 40 S&W version didn't fair so well. the 230 gr bullet expanded to .70-.75 caliber and did indeed leave some God awful looking and feeling petals. I shot a couple into wet phone books and upon retrieving them, the petals cut a good gash in my finger. They were as sharp as the point on any good knife.

The current Ranger T bullets will not do that but still give the Talon look with the petals peeled back...only not near as sharp as the old variety. They were bad to the bone but I wouldn't pay the prices I've seen for them.

gdvan01
01-07-2011, 11:27
I'm glad I still have a few boxes in 9mm and .40, when the zombies come the bullets will rip their guts out.

voyager4520
01-07-2011, 13:06
Winchester got bad publicity over Black Talons. So they took the black coating off of them and called them Rangers. That's the whole story. Rangers have been redesigned a few times so that the "talons" aren't quite as sharp, but they're essentially the same bullet. They might be illegal to use for self-defense in some localities that have laws against using hollow points, but I know of no law anywhere against Black Talons themselves. And with Rangers being labeled "for law enforcement", I know some localities have laws against civilians using anything for self-defense labeled "for law enforcement".

There were lots of stories about how the "talon points" caused SO much damage, and that surgeons/coroners would even cut themselves trying to remove the bullets.

The Rangers started with Ranger SXT, these were essentially the same bullet. Then Ranger T, which were designed so that the lead core and copper jacket don't separate as much from each other. Then PDX1, which has a core-jacket bonding much like Gold Dots, and the "talons" aren't sharp at all in this series. PDX1 is essentially the latest version of Ranger Bonded. The earlier versions of Ranger Bonded used a bullet that wasn't anything similar to "Talons", but the latest version is similar to Talons.

The Rangers are harder to come by now because they're only sold to LE departments. They used to be sold to anyone with an LE department letter-head but now the department itself must make the purchase.
(you can get them online and at gun shows, it's just harder to get them because of this)

american lockpicker
01-07-2011, 13:22
I seen some in 10mm at a local shop.

.45Super-Man
01-07-2011, 13:56
The major sales pitch of the Black Talon was the ability to create massive damage at sub-sonic velocity.

failsafe
01-07-2011, 14:14
I have never really had issues buying the Ranger SXT, it is marked Law Enforcement ammo, BUT does not say LE Only ammo...
Here is some available..in 357 SIG, it is not currently available...
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM369-5.html

tx787
01-07-2011, 14:20
The Rangers are harder to come by now because they're only sold to LE departments. They used to be sold to anyone with an LE department letter-head but now the department itself must make the purchase.

I don't believe this is true, my understanding is that Rangers, like Gold Dot Duty Rounds and HST are restricted for LE only but can be sold to officers individually at LE supply stores?

Yes some places online sell to anyone but they are violating their contract with the manufacturer unless they are overrun or a canceled order so to those people that constantly bring this up try not to or it might entourage the manufacturers to restrict them even further.

Nickpisp
01-07-2011, 14:26
I'm glad I still have a few boxes in 9mm and .40, when the zombies come the bullets will rip their guts out.

That won't hurt zombies, you have to shoot their brains out.:faint:

ColCol
01-07-2011, 14:52
I don't believe this is true, my understanding is that Rangers, like Gold Dot Duty Rounds and HST are restricted for LE only but can be sold to officers individually at LE supply stores?

Yes some places online sell to anyone but they are violating their contract with the manufacturer unless they are overrun or a canceled order so to those people that constantly bring this up try not to or it might entourage the manufacturers to restrict them even further.

I think hotpig could best answer that. Accordingly, I understand that's Winchester's rule but not the law. I don't know what the deal is but I dont think it's more "devastating" than Gold Dot's or Federal's HST so, why the hype, I don't know.

Merkavaboy
01-07-2011, 15:21
The "real" story of the Black Talon is:

July 1, 1993, Gian Luigi Ferri murdered numerous victims at an attorney's office at 101 California St, S.F., CA. Some of the ammo he used in his handguns and Tec-9 were BT's.

Sept., 1993, Winchester voluntarily stopped selling/shipping BT ammo. Any ammo that was already on dealer shelves were allowed to be sold and was not recalled by Winchester.

December 7. 1993, Colin Ferguson went on a murder rampage on a Long Island commuter train, targeting only whites. By this time, Win had already decided to stop any new ammo shipments of their BT ammo to retailers.

Winchester later designed the Supreme SXT bullet to replace the BT ammo. This new Supreme SXT was a "de-fanged" version, with no sharp "talons" at the end of the expanded jacket pedals.

The BT bullet was marketed as "law enforcement only" ammo in Win's early Ranger product line. Later the BT bullet was tweeked a bit for more reliable expansion and marketed as the Ranger SXT.

Win then removed the black Lubalux coating from the bullet and packaged it as the Ranger T-Series.

Most recently (2010) Winchester has again redesigned the bullet so that the jacket pedals and talon tips do not bend down against the shank of the bullet, but rather, stay expanded out horizontally creating a larger surface area (at least when shot into ballistic jello).

whiskey rebel1
04-05-2012, 17:07
Let me get this right. The good senator and Winchester thinks it's OK for LE to use this ammo that "tears the guts out of people" But if I try to buy it, I have to pay through the nose and/or be LE. Prosecutors are known to bring up the type of ammo you use during a self defense shooting. Be aware. Massod Ayoob has covered this before.

donsls6
04-05-2012, 17:38
I owned a box of Black Talons back in the day. Viscious looking round. I currently carry the ranger's as my round of choich in my Glock. While they don't look as mean, I trust them to be just as effective as the Black Talons.

Rooster Rugburn
04-05-2012, 17:40
Let me get this right. The good senator and Winchester thinks it's OK for LE to use this ammo that "tears the guts out of people" But if I try to buy it, I have to pay through the nose and/or be LE. Prosecutors are known to bring up the type of ammo you use during a self defense shooting. Be aware. Massod Ayoob has covered this before.

Winchester bowed to liberals and the pressure they brought to bear. And it was a PR move that got them out of the crosshairs of the "pants wetters" as Dean Speir calls them.

As mentioned above, Winchester "pulled" the brand, renamed it, removed the black color, and sell it as the SXT. Often dubbed "Same eXact Talon".

Rob1109
04-05-2012, 17:48
I believe the LEO warning is only there because this, and all the other LEO ammo is loaded hotter and they are trying to avoid liability from the public at large. I believe Federal HST is also LEO only. Black Talon was only an error of nouns/adjectives.

Merkavaboy
04-05-2012, 18:50
On July 1, 1993 Gian Luigi Ferri went on a mass shooting at 101 California St in S.F., CA. Ferri had used BT ammo in his murder spree. By mid-September '93 Winchester had already stopped any further distribution of BT ammo. Winchester did not recall any ammo that was already within the distribution train. This was all before Colin Ferguson's racially based murder spree on a Long Island subway car in December of '93.

Winchester sold their remaining BT ammo as their Ranger Law Enforcement Only ammo and has continued to modify their reverse taper SXT bullet and sells it as the current Ranger T-Series ammo today.

Merkavaboy
04-05-2012, 19:02
Winchester bowed to liberals and the pressure they brought to bear. And it was a PR move that got them out of the crosshairs of the "pants wetters" as Dean Speir calls them.

Winchester did what they did because of a very real threat of a federal ammunition ban on HP and FMJ bullets in both handgun and rifle calibers. People should be thanking Winchester for what they did rather than pizzing and moaning about it.

fnfalman
04-06-2012, 09:09
Black Talon and Winchester were victims of their own advertisement success.

mymini40
04-06-2012, 09:21
From what I recall Silversport is spot on.
but more expensive.

SGT HATRED
04-06-2012, 09:32
:supergrin:
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q37/Merlin-X/glock045.jpg

M&P15T
04-06-2012, 09:39
Ok, most shooters have seen or read about the notorious "Black Talon"
ammo. What's the real story? It must be legal to own or sell, this forum
even has some for sale. But can you load it in your carry gun or target
shoot only? Or can you even load it in a gun period? At the prices this
ammo sells for is it really worth it?

from what I understand, what I heard is they got some heat because the bullets are very destructive on people. There where complaints that they make to much of a mess. Again, that is what I heard and won't take it to the bank.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:They explode with tiny thermo-nuclear charges built into the hollow-point. Then, after the initial nuclear explosion, they release a pack of rabid pittbulls into the body to do further damage.

I believe the LEO warning is only there because this, and all the other LEO ammo is loaded hotter and they are trying to avoid liability from the public at large. I believe Federal HST is also LEO only. Black Talon was only an error of nouns/adjectives.

Yes, LEO only rounds...they're loaded hotter. Much better than stuff we civilians can get. In fact, if you have such ammo, you're in violation of a few Federal Laws, as the LEO-only ammo can pierce tank armor and stop charging rhinos at 200 yards. The Black Talons were only sold to LEOs due to the thermal-nuclear charges, and rabid packs of puitt-bulls.

This thread is both humorous, and depressing.

WoodenPlank
04-06-2012, 09:48
Let me get this right. The good senator and Winchester thinks it's OK for LE to use this ammo that "tears the guts out of people" But if I try to buy it, I have to pay through the nose and/or be LE. Prosecutors are known to bring up the type of ammo you use during a self defense shooting. Be aware. Massod Ayoob has covered this before.

Mas has also pointed out how it's not that difficult to counter such an argument from a malicious DA.

Sent from the USS Sulaco, while nuking the site from orbit.

ChrisYZFR1
04-06-2012, 14:31
Hell no. People selling that for $80 and $90 a box are preying on the uninformed.

I understand it's basically the same bullet design as the Ranger T that I carry in my 9mm; and even the Ranger T is marked Law Enforcement Only, but that's a Winchester rule and not a law that you can be prosecuted for. [redacted] sells the stuff in most common defensive calibers when they've got it in, for example. Anybody can get it.


I was told the Ranger is the same. They used the designator SXT for "Same Exact Thing" to poke at the critics.

DAIadvisor
04-06-2012, 20:12
I thought Ranger SXT stood for Same eXact Thing? :)

Houdini
04-06-2012, 20:26
I use to carry it I still have them I will use it for spare carry ammo

GlockFish
04-06-2012, 20:30
For the same reason liberals are scared of "black rifles".

vikingsoftpaw
04-06-2012, 20:35
Ok, most shooters have seen or read about the notorious "Black Talon"
ammo. What's the real story? It must be legal to own or sell, this forum
even has some for sale. But can you load it in your carry gun or target
shoot only? Or can you even load it in a gun period? At the prices this
ammo sells for is it really worth it?


The Projectiles were Black.
The people that were against them were racist.

BT was different from other ammo at the time. It was developed after the FBI penetration tests. The results of those test showed serious issue with performance under real world situations (against car door, glass, winter clothing etc).

- BT used powders with flash suppressants, in case of defensive shooting at night.

- BT projectiles are generally heavier and are tapered for a slower expansion, deeper penetration. Muzzle velocities are more moderate to control recoil.

- Nickle cases avoid corrosion.

- Lastly, the black coating on the slug is actually a lubricant plating. The overall package looked nice.

Black Talon was pulled from the market when information surfaced (falsely) about it piercing police vests. It was also protrayed as a flying buzz-saw.

Black Talon was renamed Supreme expansion Talon (SXT), minus the black coating and is currently sold by Winchester.

The bullet Racists never caught on.

While not illegal, some jurisdiction do not allow hollow points. This is a touchy issue in areas like New Jersey.

Hour13
04-06-2012, 20:53
Black Talon was pulled from the market when information surfaced (falsely) about it piercing police vests. It was also protrayed as a flying buzz-saw.



This was always one of my favorite BT myths. The power of the uninformed(ie; completely ignorant) is truly staggering.

Armor Piercing Hollowpoint? :dunno:

Jumbo shrimp, and solar powered flashlights.

:whistling:

MajorD
04-07-2012, 07:27
and black talons are no better or worse in performance than a lot of other current production high performance hollow point designs. They would probably still be on the market if they were called pink protectors or something. all hp's can leave horrible wounds or sharp shards of jacket in wounds. this is not new.

BigLaw
04-07-2012, 12:38
SXT stands for Supreme eXpansion Technology The non LE SXT doesn't have the Talons. After the Black Talon, the older Ranger SXT and now Ranger T are the only rounds with the reverse taper "talons". The "same exact thing" and all the other guesses are not accurate. After they pulled them from the civ market, they used the same bullet in brass cases for LE. After that they removed the black lubalox coating. Todays Ranger T is the 5th re-design of the black talon. I have every version including the original. This info came straight from Winchester, not some dude on the internet.