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NCGunner
01-11-2011, 19:39
My agency, a small 20 man department (including reserves ) is apparently looking to supply all full time officers with patrol rifles. This in itself is good for obvious reasons...However...here is the hitch.

The rifle in question is the Rock River LAR40..a .40 caliber AR type rifle. I know nothing of these rifles...good or bad. Does anyone have any first hand dealings with them??

Our firearms instructor does not want to issue .556 caliber weapons for whatever reason...I know..I know...I've argued it till I'm blue in the face, but I am glad we will maybe get new patrol rifles. I just don't want to be saddled with a crappy weapon that will be more trouble than it's worth.

Any usefull info would be greatly appreciated.

Captains1911
01-11-2011, 19:47
What an odd choice. Sorry, no experience with that particular weapon, but in general RRA are a little overpriced for what they are.

In out of curiosity.

volsbear
01-11-2011, 19:49
Rock River makes a great rifle. Stake the keys a little better than the factory does and you'll never have a problem.

ETA: The 40 cal thing makes zero sense to me.

mjkeat
01-11-2011, 19:55
Im guessing your handguns are .40cal? I dont get spending the money on something that has a chance of being less reliable and issueing it to people whos life may depend on that weapon functioning correctly. Does he think it will be better in the long run to be able to use the same ammo in both firearms? Maybe you should send him over to the .net for some Q&A w/ other LEO types.

Dalton Wayne
01-11-2011, 20:02
Makes no sense to me either??
Regards
DW

Bushflyr
01-11-2011, 20:51
Look around and find the over penetration studies. .40 is a WAY worse offender than 5.56. Maybe you can show him the studies and then pull the, "now that you know about it you're liable" argument.

As for RRA I've owned a couple and thought they were pretty marginal. You're 10x better off just going to BCM.

dnuggett
01-11-2011, 22:23
The decision to use a pistol caliber in a carbine intended as a patrol rifle is idiotic. As a plinker yeah ok, I could see it. But as a serious defensive rifle? Makes absolutely zero sense.

MrMurphy
01-11-2011, 22:57
Exactly.

PM me, i can hook you up with some guys who've had to *****slap their "firearms instructors" with the FBI findings, etc.

RMTactical
01-12-2011, 00:26
What an odd choice.

My thoughts as well. Too bad he won't change his mind.

humanguerrilla
01-12-2011, 06:17
......

mgs
01-12-2011, 06:32
They need some Beretta CX4's if going .40........my .40 is 100% and very reliable and ergonomic and also black. I do consider it a 50yd carbine and nice for close-in work. TAP ammo in a 556 carbine is more of a 100yd rifle, Mike.

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp145/CV-23/CX4Left.jpg

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp145/CV-23/oldvsnew.jpg

humanguerrilla
01-12-2011, 06:34
.......

cyrsequipment
01-12-2011, 07:25
Look around and find the over penetration studies. .40 is a WAY worse offender than 5.56. Maybe you can show him the studies and then pull the, "now that you know about it you're liable" argument.



As a Firearms Instructor, that idea is a great one. The liabilities involved are HUGE in this type of thing. Write up a memo, include the documentation and send it to him, while keeping a copy with the date you sent it to him...

On the other hand, it could very well backfire on you and you'll end up with nothing (don't ask me how I know that :crying: )

As for RRA, there isn't really a problem with them, good weapons. And if you HAVE to take the .40cal version, it is certainly a lot better than nothing.

mjkeat
01-12-2011, 09:13
Look around and find the over penetration studies. .40 is a WAY worse offender than 5.56. Maybe you can show him the studies and then pull the, "now that you know about it you're liable" argument.

As for RRA I've owned a couple and thought they were pretty marginal. You're 10x better off just going to BCM.

Great idea.

The decision to use a pistol caliber in a carbine intended as a patrol rifle is idiotic. As a plinker yeah ok, I could see it. But as a serious defensive rifle? Makes absolutely zero sense.

Why not? The cowboys did it with their .45LC. They had their pistols and rifles chambered for the same round. How can old, out dated reasoning be wrong? :upeyes:

boomhower
01-12-2011, 18:45
Fortunately we have better technology than the cowboy's. For most LEO's who work in an urban environment the 5.56 is a better choice than .40. I would pick up a shotgun over a .40 rifle.

gh0st614
01-12-2011, 18:50
Fortunately we have better technology than the cowboy's. For most LEO's who work in an urban environment the 5.56 is a better choice than .40. I would pick up a shotgun over a .40 rifle.

Yea I would rather have a shotgun than a pistol caliber carbine too, thats just dumb as hell. 5.56 is way superior

rkwrichard
01-12-2011, 18:52
You must have a non gun person making choices for you. Try to talk them into going with 5.56 or letting you carry your own gun..

jrs93accord
01-12-2011, 19:53
Going with a .40 pistol round is ridiculous. That is what you have a .40 pistol for. A patrol rifle is used when you need more that your pistol. That is where the 5.56/.223 round comes into play. This is why most every LE organization uses it in their patrol rifles. It is a rifle round and designed to reach out and touch someone when your pistol cannot do it effectively. Your firearms instructor needs to wake up, smell the coffee, and get with the program. Sounds like someone with more common sense needs to be making the decisions.

MisterPX
01-12-2011, 19:55
Might be related to a budget issue. I'd also rather have 40sw rifles than none at all. A rifle will be easir to make accurate shots than a pistol, especially when all hell breaks loose.


Anyhow, OP, don't take this the wrong way, but I "plan" to fight another "me". In your situation, you and your dept. should plan to fight "me" as well, for a worst case scenario type thing. I understand that a lot of cops end up shot with their own weapon, thus that may be some of his reasoning behind using 40sw rifles, however, what if a drugged up/ drunk/ nothing to lose/ suicide by cop MisterPX wanders around your town? 40sw will not penetrate my soft body armor, remember the N. Hollywood shootout?

Anyhow, curious as to the guys reasoning behind 40sw rilfes.

ETA: Based on your manpower, you are a samll town. Never ever disillusion yourselves, teh crime that happens in a big city happens in a small town, although at the same percentages, so while it may seem that you don't have any "serious" crime, eventually, it'll happen.

GroundedCLK
01-13-2011, 07:25
Are all your handguns issued in .40s&w?

I guess I am the only one who agrees with his choice.

Bushflyr
01-13-2011, 08:57
Are all your handguns issued in .40s&w?

I guess I am the only one who agrees with his choice.

Why? Given your initial question I'd assume commonality of ammo? That rationale held water back in the cowboy days when a guy had to carry everything in his saddle bags. Nowadays it makes no sense at all, especially when using that ammo (.40) increases the risk of collateral damage, increases liability, and decreases officer safety.

TimP
01-13-2011, 12:47
ummm, 12 gauge?

ducati
01-13-2011, 13:05
Great idea.



Why not? The cowboys did it with their .45LC. They had their pistols and rifles chambered for the same round. How can old, out dated reasoning be wrong? :upeyes:

They did it with their 44-40s and 38-40s but it was not done in 45 colt.

cowboy1964
01-13-2011, 13:22
Did the instructor get an ok from the law department (assuming they have one)? Maybe someone should anonymously bring up the liability issue of overpenetration potential... not to mention the under-effectiveness of the choice compared to a 5.56.

mjkeat
01-13-2011, 13:38
They did it with their 44-40s and 38-40s but it was not done in 45 colt.

I have info contrary to yours I guess.

vafish
01-13-2011, 18:00
Just playing devils advocate here because I do agree that the 5.56 makes a better patrol rifle.

But some of the reasons that your Firearms Instructor is probably using to justify the .40 S+W patrol rifle.

1. Common ammo with service handguns. No need to stock other types of ammo. Also works just fine for over penetration issues because the carbine won't penetrate that much more then the handgun does. If you argue that the .40 S+W over penetrates then you shouldn't be carrying it in handguns either.

2. If you have an indoor range the .40 S+W will be much easier on the backstop. The backstop may not even be rated for 5.56 ammo. IF outdoor range the .40 S+W is a shorter range cartridge if someone puts one over the berm.

3. Less muzzle blast and noise, especially if used indoors without hearing protection as a LE would.

4. The FBI bought a bunch of them back in 2009, so if the FBI is using them they must be good.

cowboy1964
01-13-2011, 20:10
Just playing devils advocate here because I do agree that the 5.56 makes a better patrol rifle.

But some of the reasons that your Firearms Instructor is probably using to justify the .40 S+W patrol rifle.

1. Common ammo with service handguns. No need to stock other types of ammo. Also works just fine for over penetration issues because the carbine won't penetrate that much more then the handgun does. If you argue that the .40 S+W over penetrates then you shouldn't be carrying it in handguns either.

2. If you have an indoor range the .40 S+W will be much easier on the backstop. The backstop may not even be rated for 5.56 ammo. IF outdoor range the .40 S+W is a shorter range cartridge if someone puts one over the berm.

4. The FBI bought a bunch of them back in 2009, so if the FBI is using them they must be good.

1. So if handgun calibers tend to overpenetrate let's just make it worse with our patrol rifles? Will their duty round (probably a premium JHP, but who knows with this department) even work properly when driven to much higher velocity?

2. Choosing a duty weapon/caliber because of range requirements? If true maybe they should get a better range first.

3. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/07/fbi-purchasing-40-sw-ar-15-carbines/ Apparently the FBI is primarily using these for training? I'd like to see confirmation that the .40 carbines are actually widely used in the field.

Besides the severe overpenetration and JHP performance issues I just can't believe a .40 carbine is going to be as effective as say a 75gr Hornady TAP 5.56. The .40 out of a carbine probably has little more than about 2/3s of the energy of the 5.56, and the 5.56 isn't a super powerhouse to begin with in terms of rifle calibers.

JBaird22
01-14-2011, 00:15
I am with most everyone else that your FI has his head planted somewhere he sits on. I don't know necessarily if that is "better than nothing" however.

As for your questions about reliability and the general "is this ok" question about the RRA's, our department purchased a full auto gun from them that did not run so hot until it had about 1200 rounds down the pipe. I am assuming it was needing some time to break in. It now runs okay.

Parts for the LAR 40 are going to be cost prohibitive as it uses (I am assuming) a non standard bolt, barrel, FSB? Oh and mags. The entry cost, and then costs to keep the thing running are going to far out spend the cost of a second type of ammo.

duncan
01-14-2011, 00:57
NCGunner:

Sorry about that. RRA just started making those rifles under an FBI contract for training rifles.

I could see some application if you carry 40SW Glocks and you want more capability with a 16" barrel on a carbine using those same Glock mags (Olympic Arms).

But many many LEAs are successfully deploying 223 AR-15s.

I've also seen this before unfortunately with the first gen SW Stygma's with more than 500 units being bad. And the chief was a SW fan until the union forced them to get the force quality weapons - Glocks.

You should be deploying these for house clearing and close quarters work:

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac314/AR15_Oly1/OA9mmMag.jpg

It's a 40SW SBR but can be had for LEOs in 223 flavor.

Or some tried and true Rem 870s with buckshot?

AK_Stick
01-14-2011, 03:06
There's no way in hell you'd catch me doing entry/CQB work with an Oly arms gun.


I'd rather carry my duty pistol than anything that POS company puts their name on.

cyrsequipment
01-14-2011, 05:02
There's no way in hell you'd catch me doing entry/CQB work with an Oly arms gun.


I'd rather carry my duty pistol than anything that POS company puts their name on.

Sooooo....

Are you saying that you don't think they are top tier weapons?:supergrin:

AK_Stick
01-14-2011, 05:59
In a word, no!


I would take one as a range gun, but there's no way in hell I'd bet my life to that

MCKNBRD
01-14-2011, 06:26
Judging from your department size and location (NC), I'm going to guess you're either in a really small town (PD) or a really rural county (SD).

Either way, another point to make would be for longer range shots, if needed. That .40 S&W will run out of steam around 100yds, and the 5.56 will be excellent out past that. Varmint control (coyotes, feral dogs, etc.), wildlife issues, and even covering positions in case of a barricaded suspect will be MUCH safer at 100yds than right on top of the 'situation'.

Very bad call on your FI's part. PM me your location if you'd like, I can supply some local LE agency specs on carbines.

Byrdman

mjkeat
01-14-2011, 07:30
There's no way in hell you'd catch me doing entry/CQB work with an Oly arms gun.


I'd rather carry my duty pistol than anything that POS company puts their name on.

Or a rock and a stick.

duncan
01-15-2011, 04:09
OT Here!

Once again I am called to defend Oly. They used to suck like a Hoover.

It's a different company than the POS it was 10 years ago.

Different staff completely and they are manufacturing parts for other big name AR-15 companies IIRC.

No other manufacturer is making high quality polymer 9mm, 40SW, 10mm, and 45 ACP pistol caliber magazines for AR-15s. Give them credit for that investment at least.

If you want a pistol caliber carbine for the range, target practice, hunting, of SD, they make one hell of a 10mm carbine.

If my butt was on the line, I agree, spend the $$$$ and get the really tight setup.

But for the majority of us, these are range and varmint rifles.

My preferred long gun for home SD is a Rem 870 with slugs and 000 alternating:wow:

But the Oly does not deserve the stick anymore. Lots of PNW folks, soldiers, and off-duty cops have their rifles. So things have changed.

Kegs
01-15-2011, 04:59
All I can say is I hope the bad guys are not wearing armor.

Gallium
01-15-2011, 05:32
...

Our firearms instructor does not want to issue .556 caliber weapons for whatever reason......

What are those specific reasons sir? I too am curious.

Not saying you should say this to him or anyone else, but please do remember that for smaller depts it's often way harder to change direction, especially after the check has been cut and the equipment delivered. It's not like you're going to come into another $80,000 slush fund to re-equip your force if these 40cal long guns don't work out.

I also like the idea of citing past studies & liability.

Did you get a chance to read the FIs report as it was submitted, outlining why he went with this platform?

Thanks.

'Drew

DocGKR
06-10-2013, 15:32
SO....What happened to all those RRA LAR-40's the FBI purchased?

Who was the idiot that thought it was a good idea to waste tax payer funds on this project?

Did anyone get fired over this?
Edit/Delete Message

DocGKR
06-10-2013, 15:32
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=6ac219a2e12e8aedc2755b3053e32af1&tab=core&_cview=0&cck=1&au=&ck=