Do I want a 20 or a 21? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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DrtyHarry
02-09-2010, 18:53
It's about time I picked up another Glock, this will be my third as I have a 17 and a 27. :supergrin: Looking for a large cal., more for the woods as well as HD/range. Maybe some hunting after adding a longer barrel. I think 10mm is the way to go here.

I started toying with the 10mm cartridge and am really liking it. Got to plink my buddy's Delta not long ago and I was blown away by it's accuracy and power downrange. Anyway, I'm a 1911 guy, most of my guns are 1911s so I am rather familiar with the .45 ACP cartridge. So, in a way I do want something new and different.

I will primarily be shooting 10mm, my understanding is that I can buy a G21sf and drop in a 10mm conversion barrel. I see KKM makes a barrel for this application. My question is reliability. How reliable are those "drop in" conversion barrels? Would you trust these barrels for HD?

If I'm going to be shooting .45, I'll more than likely be using one of my 1911s. The 20 is $50 cheaper than the 21 in my neck of the woods (can't find a 20sf RTF2 though).

I saw pics of a 21sf RTF2, did they start making 20sfs with the RT2 frame yet? Not sure what way to go...20 or 21. :dunno:

DH

picturethis
02-09-2010, 18:56
20 ONLY if you reload, in my opinion.

Goodspeed(TPF)
02-09-2010, 18:57
20. :wavey:

douggmc
02-09-2010, 18:57
20 ONLY if you reload, in my opinion.

Why? :dunno:

picturethis
02-09-2010, 18:58
Why? :dunno:

10mm ammo is pretty damn expensive, but you can offset the costs if you reload. I was ready to pull the trigger on a 20 til I checked out ammo prices and availability.

DrtyHarry
02-09-2010, 18:58
I'm going to start learning how to roll my own soon enough. :) My buddy rolls his own and hooks me up.


DH

ChuteTheMall
02-09-2010, 19:00
Why? :dunno:

Ammo availability, affordability, and power?

racegunner
02-09-2010, 19:01
The slide on the 20 is heavier. It's better suited for hot loads.

up1911fan
02-09-2010, 19:03
You definately want a G20SF, or wait, maybe that's me.

douggmc
02-09-2010, 19:10
10mm ammo is pretty damn expensive, but you can offset the costs if you reload. I was ready to pull the trigger on a 20 til I checked out ammo prices and availability.

Ammo availability, affordability, and power?

Hmm. I buy my ammo (9mm and 10mm) from DoubleTap. About 40.00 box of 50 or 385.00 for case of 500. Always in stock ... and can't imagine wanting to load my 10 any hotter than DT does. The probably won't find a better round for "the woods" than his 200/230g hardcast. Tax free unless you live in UT.

I suppose for low(er) cost practice ammo (which I don't generally buy/use) this might be a concern though.

I have read some grumbling about DT lately though ... not sure what that is all about.

Brian Lee
02-09-2010, 19:12
I own the G20, and have never tried to convert a 21 to 10MM, but I do have an opinion about it. The extractor and breech face are not exactly right in the G21 for shooting 10MM even if you do change the barrel. I realize that people are doing it and it seems to work, but I'm still suspicious enough to say I'd limit the idea to a range or hunting gun, and wouldn't bet much that it will prove reliable enough for HD.

Then again, you may do it and find that it never ever jams, proving me totally wrong. If you decide to risk the money on the experiment, please post here as to the reliability of the combination. I'd really like to know.

Brian Lee
02-09-2010, 19:15
I have read some grumbling about DT lately though ... not sure what that is all about.

Just buy a chronograph (For the price of about two and a half boxes of DT ammo - not worth not having one.) and you'll see almost instantly what most of the grumbling is all about.

douggmc
02-09-2010, 19:19
Just buy a chronograph (For the price of about two and a half boxes of DT ammo - not worth not having one.) and you'll see almost instantly what most of the grumbling is all about.

Interesting. I haven't bought any ammo since mid-last year (bought a couple cases then).

What are the specifics and when did they start ... or is this a taboo subject on GT (is DT a sponser)?

big68
02-09-2010, 19:21
20 to a 21 but not a 21 to a 20 is what I understand. Get the 20sf and reload. I do not think converting the 21 to a 20 is a good idea IMO. Leave the 45acp to your 1911's or get the 21 and be like me. I have a Kimber 1911 and a G21. I do not have any other calibers besides 9mm and 45acp. I like other calibers but stick to the basics in my pistols.

top glock
02-09-2010, 19:33
10mm ammo is pretty damn expensive, but you can offset the costs if you reload. I was ready to pull the trigger on a 20 til I checked out ammo prices and availability.


Just buy .40 cal. I heard you can shoot them in the 10 mm guns.

DEADLYACCURATE
02-09-2010, 20:17
Get a 20 and reload

DEADLYACCURATE
02-09-2010, 20:18
Just buy .40 cal. I heard you can shoot them in the 10 mm guns.

:rofl::rofl:

You can also shoot .357 Sig in .40 and 10mm but I'm not gonna do it

MatGlock
02-09-2010, 20:20
I've got both. Get the G20.

DrtyHarry
02-09-2010, 20:36
G20 it is. Too many variables to go to 21 to 20.

Only question I have is if Glock started making RTF2s for the 20sf. Anyone? Thanks again all!

DH

oISHUTupNrocKIo
02-09-2010, 20:39
If your a 1911 guy, leave the .45 ACP for the 1911s then... the Glock 20 is the most powerful Glock and hell of a time shooting at the range and the perfect HD weapon IMO.

Max1775
02-09-2010, 20:41
If you want something powerful and different than .45, then 10mm is the way to go. Personally I love the .45 for the power, availability of ammunition, and cost... Having said that, I wouldn't mind a 10mm, especially for hunting.

TangoFoxtrot
02-09-2010, 20:41
Do I want a 20 or a 21? Thats easy to answer.....G21!

camelotkid
02-09-2010, 20:47
get the 20 and if you want to shoot it for less money get a drop in .40 barrel

oISHUTupNrocKIo
02-09-2010, 21:34
Do I want a 20 or a 21? Thats easy to answer.....G20!

:whistling:...

vmann
02-09-2010, 22:27
if you dont mind getting your ammo online, get the 10mm...if you want to get ammo at a local store, get the 45....

Orange
02-09-2010, 22:38
21, now dont make me come back in here and tell you again....:supergrin:

Guntrainer
02-09-2010, 23:41
As a commercial ammunition manufacturer, I load 10's because they are not easy to get in my area, and there is a demand for practice ammo. I have to buy new brass, except for short runs for customers using their brass.

The Glock 20 is made to be a Ten, and that is that.

To get the most versatility out of the Big Ten, one must reload. I also recommend a barrel set up for cast bullets, for practice and training drills.

Max loads kill the brass. Look at the Redding push through die for the 40 to eliminate the bulge one gets with max loads.

I like the Ten's versatility, but bought a Glock 21. For personal protection and training chores, along with standard drills and practice, the 45 ACP suits me fine.

Don't try to re invent the wheel with extremely heavy loads. With the right powders, the Big Ten can trot right along with the 41 Magnum at acceptable pressures. I suggest bullets between 165 and 180 grains. In bear country, possibly a 200 gr non expanding bullet. There ARE better rounds for critters that can bite and eat you!

I do recommend a 20 lb spring with the BIG loads, and the stock spring with lighter training fodder.

mikeyU
02-09-2010, 23:43
I choose the 20, I like mine

DrtyHarry
02-09-2010, 23:49
Thanks again guys, I'm leaning towards the 20 for sure. Can anyone tell me if they started making G20sf RTF2s yet? If not, when? Again, thanks for the info.

DH

Brian Lee
02-09-2010, 23:53
Interesting. I haven't bought any ammo since mid-last year (bought a couple cases then).

What are the specifics and when did they start ... or is this a taboo subject on GT (is DT a sponser)?

Generally speaking it's velocities of 100 to 200 FPS slower than what DT claims on their web site and on the ammo boxes themselves with almost every load I've tried. In the case of the 60-buck-a-box 10MM 155 grain Barnes XPB solid copper projectile, it was over 260 FPS slower than the 1400 FPS that DT claimed on the box.

The 147 grain 9x25 Dillon they claim at 1495 FPS, actually came in at about 1300 FPS instead.

I used to be a real DT fanboy until about 5 minutes after I bought my Chrono. Not anymore. They could have simply told the truth about the REAL velocities and I'd be a lot more likely to continue buying from them, but I just despise being lied to and tricked into buying something on false pretenses, so now I feel obligated to refuse them anymore of my business.

Mongosafari
02-10-2010, 00:25
Both are excellent. Which number do you like better: 10 or 45?

That is the number stamped on the end of the box of ammo for your pistol; 10 mm or 45 ACP.

I vote for the Glock 21 in 45 ACP.

TH237
02-10-2010, 00:59
For the woods and hunting go with the 20.

biggin215
02-10-2010, 01:05
Double tap tried their hand at 9mm ammo. I saw a wet pack test where it over penetrated (+20 inches) and never expanded :/

biggin215
02-10-2010, 01:09
Sorry for the double post but I'm in the same situation. I have a 21 and 30 but I am always wanting to go bigger. Is it really not ok to drop in a 10mm barrel in the 30/21? That would be ideal. I really want a 29 for CC. I like my .45s though because they aren't an arm and a leg to shoot!

Should I maybe try to trade my 21/30 for 20/29 and invest in a couple of .45 barrels for plinking?

07 LMB Z06
02-10-2010, 01:27
I'll chime in since my one and only handgun I own is a G20sf.

I've shot .45's before, but man do I love mine. Of course my opinion is biased, but I say go with the G20. Aside from being the most powerful Glock, it has a coolness factor. It turns heads (mine was confused for a Desert Eagle once because of how loud it is), and I like having something not many people have. I know quite a few guys with guns, and none of them currently have or ever had a 10mm.

I was unhappy with the ammo situation until I discovered Georgia Arms. Boxes of 50 FMJ at my local place cost me $33. I just purchased 500 rounds of FMJ from G.A. for $200, it shipped on Monday, and I will have it tomorrow. Can't complain about that. Prices are not as absurd as people make it seem.

I also bought 50 rounds of Double Tap 180gr JHP Bonded Defense, and I will most likely buy a box of 50 of the 135gr Noslers just for fun. Double Tap rounds are a little pricey at about $40 for the box of 50, but they are my home defense cartridges so I will shoot 20 rounds of each at the range and the last 30 will be to load up my two mags. They'll last me a while.

Edit: Check out this vid. The 135gr is a nasty round.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdB8yo085Sw

To answer your other question, I don't think there is a G20 RTF2.

biggin215
02-10-2010, 03:51
I'll chime in since my one and only handgun I own is a G20sf.

I've shot .45's before, but man do I love mine. Of course my opinion is biased, but I say go with the G20. Aside from being the most powerful Glock, it has a coolness factor. It turns heads (mine was confused for a Desert Eagle once because of how loud it is), and I like having something not many people have. I know quite a few guys with guns, and none of them currently have or ever had a 10mm.

I was unhappy with the ammo situation until I discovered Georgia Arms. Boxes of 50 FMJ at my local place cost me $33. I just purchased 500 rounds of FMJ from G.A. for $200, it shipped on Monday, and I will have it tomorrow. Can't complain about that. Prices are not as absurd as people make it seem.

I also bought 50 rounds of Double Tap 180gr JHP Bonded Defense, and I will most likely buy a box of 50 of the 135gr Noslers just for fun. Double Tap rounds are a little pricey at about $40 for the box of 50, but they are my home defense cartridges so I will shoot 20 rounds of each at the range and the last 30 will be to load up my two mags. They'll last me a while.

Edit: Check out this vid. The 135gr is a nasty round.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdB8yo085Sw

To answer your other question, I don't think there is a G20 RTF2.

Are the G20 mags the same price as the other glock mags?

07 LMB Z06
02-10-2010, 10:41
Are the G20 mags the same price as the other glock mags?

I haven't purchased any extras yet so I don't have personal experience with prices; however, this site...

http://glockstore.com/pgroup_descrip/336_Featured+Items/7272_High+Capacity+Glock+Factory+Magazines/?return=%3f

...shows the same prices for all mags until you get up to the 11 round .40 and .357, and the 33 round 9mm.

glock2740
02-10-2010, 10:53
Gotta go with the G20.

LEAD
02-10-2010, 11:22
Generally speaking it's velocities of 100 to 200 FPS slower than what DT claims on their web site and on the ammo boxes themselves with almost every load I've tried. In the case of the 60-buck-a-box 10MM 155 grain Barnes XPB solid copper projectile, it was over 260 FPS slower than the 1400 FPS that DT claimed on the box.

The 147 grain 9x25 Dillon they claim at 1495 FPS, actually came in at about 1300 FPS instead.

I used to be a real DT fanboy until about 5 minutes after I bought my Chrono. Not anymore. They could have simply told the truth about the REAL velocities and I'd be a lot more likely to continue buying from them, but I just despise being lied to and tricked into buying something on false pretenses, so now I feel obligated to refuse them anymore of my business.

Are you sure your chrono is on. Have you checked other company's loadings, is your barrel length the same as what they use to get their numbers.

Sorry to sound skeptical, but you never know mistakes happen in various forms.

OP, if you're not shooting bears 21 will suffice.

Cineski
02-10-2010, 12:06
That's because they put a Montana Gold HP bullet in and didn't tell anyone.

Double tap tried their hand at 9mm ammo. I saw a wet pack test where it over penetrated (+20 inches) and never expanded :/

JWP
02-10-2010, 14:46
got g21 and 2 g20s, reload both 10 and 45 and host of others, got the 6" 10mm to fit the g21 slide and it shoots well w/o changing the extractor

ultimate goal is longslide for the 6" barrel and use it on the g 21 frame

Girevik61
02-10-2010, 14:48
I'm thinking about a 20SF myself, awesome power.

Line Rider
02-10-2010, 14:56
If you don't reload buy a GL 21 or GL 21 SF.

Brian Lee
02-10-2010, 14:58
Are you sure your chrono is on. Have you checked other company's loadings, is your barrel length the same as what they use to get their numbers.

Sorry to sound skeptical, but you never know mistakes happen in various forms.

Yes, yes, and yes.

DT is one of 5 different brands I've shot and checked, and I've used the same chrono to check other calibers too - it seems to be working fine. And DT clearly states velocities from a G20, with no mention of barrel length, so I assume it's the stock barrel. My results have shown that you have to use the 6" (Glock brand) hunting barrel just to get DT ammo to go 100 to 200 FPS slower than they advertise. With the stock barrel, the velocities are even worse than that, so I don't think I'm tainting the results with improper barrel length.

Brian Lee
02-10-2010, 15:18
Sorry for the double post but I'm in the same situation. I have a 21 and 30 but I am always wanting to go bigger. Is it really not ok to drop in a 10mm barrel in the 30/21? That would be ideal. I really want a 29 for CC. I like my .45s though because they aren't an arm and a leg to shoot!

Should I maybe try to trade my 21/30 for 20/29 and invest in a couple of .45 barrels for plinking?

You seem to have it backwards. The G21 & G30 can be converted to 10MM, but the 10MM guns cannot be converted to .45 caliber because the breech face of the 10MM is too narrow to hold the wider .45 caliber shell.

10MM G21 conversion barrels are available at:

http://www.efkfiredragon.com/products.php?cat=43&pg=2
and
http://www.kkmprecision.com/custom_pistol_barrels/home.php?cat=17
and
http://www.stormlakebarrel.com/barrels

KKM and Storm Lake have them in both standard and 6" lengths, plus KKM has them for the G30, but only in the short length. Apparently Lone Wolf and Bar-Sto do not offer 10MM barrels for the G21 & 30.

It's well known that people have done this conversion, but since the G21 & 30 breech face & extractor are really not quite right for the smaller diameter 10MM cases, the only issue is whether the reliability is as good as a stock G21 shooting .45 ammo. It's certainly been shown to work, but I was hoping somebody who has done the conversion would jump in here to let us know exactly how well it works.

It's the exact same issue with converting .40 caliber guns to 9MM because you're changing the diameter of the ammo cases to a smaller size.

The G20 is the king of conversion versatility because 10MM, .40 caliber, .357 Sig, and 9x25MM Dillon all have the exact same outer dimensions at the rear end of the cases, so the breech, extractor and mags are all perfect for all four calibers.

MistoGators
02-10-2010, 16:27
10mm ammo is pretty hard to find and is expensive (even here in GA). Get the slim frame Glock 21.

biggin215
02-10-2010, 16:41
You seem to have it backwards. The G21 & G30 can be converted to 10MM, but the 10MM guns cannot be converted to .45 caliber because the breech face of the 10MM is too narrow to hold the wider .45 caliber shell.

10MM G21 conversion barrels are available at:

http://www.efkfiredragon.com/products.php?cat=43&pg=2
and
http://www.kkmprecision.com/custom_pistol_barrels/home.php?cat=17
and
http://www.stormlakebarrel.com/barrels

KKM and Storm Lake have them in both standard and 6" lengths, plus KKM has them for the G30, but only in the short length. Apparently Lone Wolf and Bar-Sto do not offer 10MM barrels for the G21 & 30.

It's well known that people have done this conversion, but since the G21 & 30 breech face & extractor are really not quite right for the smaller diameter 10MM cases, the only issue is whether the reliability is as good as a stock G21 shooting .45 ammo. It's certainly been shown to work, but I was hoping somebody who has done the conversion would jump in here to let us know exactly how well it works.

It's the exact same issue with converting .40 caliber guns to 9MM because you're changing the diameter of the ammo cases to a smaller size.

The G20 is the king of conversion versatility because 10MM, .40 caliber, .357 Sig, and 9x25MM Dillon all have the exact same outer dimensions at the rear end of the cases, so the breech, extractor and mags are all perfect for all four calibers.

OOOO.... GOOD!!! That means all i need to do is drop a few bucks on a 10mm barrel and some mags and I have a 10mm???

Another question.... Could I put a full size barrel in my G30? Like a 5inch 10mm barrel in my G30 and just have it stick out a little?

Cineski
02-11-2010, 10:59
Keep in mind, the G21's breech face is bigger than the G20, so you run a risk of failure if using a G21 converted to 10mm in a defensive situation. Plus, the G20 slide is heavier than the G21, and thus it controls 10mm recoil better.

AJE
02-11-2010, 11:24
I have a G21SF with a 6" Lone Wolf slide and a 10mm conversion barrel.

I would not recommend this setup (yet) for a defensive gun, as it has not run 100% like my stock Glocks have. I have only put a couple of hundred rounds of 10mm through it at this point, and I'm working on developing some of my reloads with it. The chamber on the KKM is much tighter than a stock barrel which leads to possible misfeeds, especially when it's not cleaned.

I have also read trouble people have had with the conversion barrels failing to extract. I have rarely had problems with extraction, mine has only been the rounds hanging up while feeding into the chamber. Even then, it might only be once or twice in 100 rounds, but that's still too much for a Glock!

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c353/AJErvin/Guns/10mm45acp.jpg

That said, the 10mm is absolutely a kickass cartridge!

G33
02-11-2010, 11:25
Get 21.
Get 20 conversion barrel.
Get a 20 mag.
Enjoy.
:supergrin:

Bello
02-11-2010, 11:28
do what i do.. get both.. i never use conversion barrels i just buy the gun.

DrtyHarry
02-11-2010, 11:56
I have a G21SF with a 6" Lone Wolf slide and a 10mm conversion barrel.

I would not recommend this setup (yet) for a defensive gun, as it has not run 100% like my stock Glocks have. I have only put a couple of hundred rounds of 10mm through it at this point, and I'm working on developing some of my reloads with it. The chamber on the KKM is much tighter than a stock barrel which leads to possible misfeeds, especially when it's not cleaned.

I have also read trouble people have had with the conversion barrels failing to extract. I have rarely had problems with extraction, mine has only been the rounds hanging up while feeding into the chamber. Even then, it might only be once or twice in 100 rounds, but that's still too much for a Glock!

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c353/AJErvin/Guns/10mm45acp.jpg

That said, the 10mm is absolutely a kickass cartridge!


That is a beautiful looking pistol you have there, I was planning on getting a 6" barrel for it, and now I'm going to have a look at the LWD slides.

For the reasons you mentioned above, I'm most certainly taking the G20 path. Like I said earlier, if I want to shoot .45, I'll grab one of my many 1911s. Thanks for posting that pic and thanks to all those who contributed here. You guys rock! Oh, and if someone can tell me when a G20sf RTF2 is due out, I'd really appreciate it. THANKS!!

DH

ChuteTheMall
02-11-2010, 12:15
Oh, and if someone can tell me when a G20sf RTF2 is due out, I'd really appreciate it. THANKS!!

DH


Preferably in olive drab for me.
:banana:

Iceman cHucK
02-11-2010, 13:09
Yes, yes, and yes.

DT is one of 5 different brands I've shot and checked, and I've used the same chrono to check other calibers too - it seems to be working fine. And DT clearly states velocities from a G20, with no mention of barrel length, so I assume it's the stock barrel. My results have shown that you have to use the 6" (Glock brand) hunting barrel just to get DT ammo to go 100 to 200 FPS slower than they advertise. With the stock barrel, the velocities are even worse than that, so I don't think I'm tainting the results with improper barrel length.

I have done the exact same testing of DT 10mm and 45 ammo and experienced the same results as Brian Lee. With a 6" barrel I do not get the claimed velocities of the 4.6" barrel. I like the DT ammo BUT all of mine is at least 100fps under advertised velocities. I have brought this to their attention and have gotten no reply! The Reed ammo tested seems to be right on.

kcolg5150
02-11-2010, 15:23
Good question,I bought a 21sf and then wanted more bang for the buck,bought the 20 and was very impressed and it's just so different than a 45acp round. The 10mm is to much fun(more expensive) but worth it. If i had to keep one it would be the 10mm....nasty! Love it! So much I bought a 29......even more fun in a smaller package.....it's a disease.......good luck.

Max1775
02-11-2010, 19:27
Good question,I bought a 21sf and then wanted more bang for the buck,bought the 21 and was very impressed and it's just so different than a 45acp round. The 10mm is to much fun(more expensive) but worth it. If i had to keep one it would be the 10mm....nasty! Love it! So much I bought a 29......even more fun in a smaller package.....it's a disease.......good luck.

The G21 and G21SF are the same caliber. .45ACP. Do you mean you bought a G20?

Gokyo
02-11-2010, 19:31
I own a g20

I can I ahve barrels that allow me to shoot.
10mm
40SW
357 sig
9mm

Seems like a pretty cool platform.

All I do is swap barrels, it uses the same extractor and magazines for all ammo.

Bigmike75
02-12-2010, 02:16
I believe the frames are the same 20 vs 21. Why not buy a second slide and barrel for the other caliber?

kcolg5150
02-12-2010, 13:11
Yes your correct,I meant 20. Just fixed.Thanks.

RonaldG29
02-12-2010, 13:17
G20! all the way.