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Crom
12-19-2010, 22:25
Which is the correct sight picture for Glock factory sights?

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_HyKXZv5NViY/TQ7YAMV975I/AAAAAAAA65Y/0aZ3fvhz-Hc/r03xfs.jpeg

I am thinking Sight Image #2, but I want to hear what experienced Glock folks say. On my G23 I have Glock factory night sights. Thanks.

voyager4520
12-19-2010, 22:33
It depends on distance. Glocks are supposed to be sighted in for image 2 at 25 yards. When I can actually get my trigger control right, that's exactly how mine shoot.

Because of my bad trigger control, I tend to pull shots lower and start trending toward image 3 to compensate.

Pity410
12-19-2010, 22:34
Well I am not an experienced glock user, but I would also think it would be #3

Crom
12-19-2010, 22:39
.....

Kentucky Shooter
12-19-2010, 22:42
I prefer image 2, or point of aim shooting. You aim at where you want the bullet to hit which makes the most sense to me.

Image 1 is preferred by some and is referred to as a 6 o clock hold. This would be my 2nd choice and could be learned pretty easily, but I am just not used to it.

Image 3 is not anything I have ever seen or recognize---I would call it a "point and hope" method and I would personally avoid it (unless I was trying to hit the upper fourth of the target). Assuming you are trying to hit the center of the target, you have the bullseye completely covered which makes no sense whatsover.

Wastelander
12-19-2010, 22:43
Well I am not an experienced glock user, but I would also think it would be #3


You would be correct if you're shooting past 25 feet.

alexanderg23
12-19-2010, 22:47
#2.....

JackedGLOCK
12-19-2010, 22:55
LOL.. Image #2 of course.. This is not a brain scratcher.

usmc2537gunny
12-19-2010, 22:56
You want to use image 2. At 50' you should be able to aquire a point of aim point of impact shot.

Captains1911
12-19-2010, 22:58
LOL.. Image #2 of course.. This is not a brain scratcher.

This. Any other answer is wrong, period.

GoingQuiet
12-19-2010, 23:02
#2 - by far and away.

R*E
12-19-2010, 23:04
#3 is great for shooting at something you can't be certain of.

bentbiker
12-19-2010, 23:05
I prefer image 1, or point of aim shooting. You aim at where you want the bullet to hit which makes the most sense to me.

Image 2 is preferred by some and is referred to as a 6 o clock hold. This would be my 2nd choice and could be learned pretty easily, but I am just not used to it.Did the OP switch the image locations after you started your reply? You have the descriptions reversed.

Kentucky Shooter
12-19-2010, 23:06
Did the OP switch the image locations after you started your reply? You have the descriptions reversed.

Thanks for pointing this out...I went back and corrected my post.

Captains1911
12-19-2010, 23:09
I prefer image 2, or point of aim shooting. You aim at where you want the bullet to hit which makes the most sense to me.

Image 1 is preferred by some and is referred to as a 6 o clock hold. This would be my 2nd choice and could be learned pretty easily, but I am just not used to it.

Image 3 is not anything I have ever seen or recognize---I would call it a "point and hope" method and I would avoid it like the plague (unless I was trying to hit the upper fourth of the target). Assuming you are trying to hit the center of the target, you have the bullseye completely covered which makes no sense whatsover.

As already stated, I think you have #1 & #2 mixed up. Furthermore, unless you have adjustable sights, which factory glock sights do not, you have no choice.

TSAX
12-19-2010, 23:12
Ladies and gentlemen I will take door #2

cowboy1964
12-19-2010, 23:23
You would be correct if you're shooting past 25 feet.

25 yards maybe, not feet.

#2 is the correct sighting for every Glock I've ever shot. Never shot one past 25 yards.

Captains1911
12-19-2010, 23:30
25 yards maybe, not feet.

#2 is the correct sighting for every Glock I've ever shot. Never shot one past 25 yards.

I actually shot a few mags at 25 yards this morning, just for fun, and #2 was still the correct sight picture.

Crom
12-19-2010, 23:41
It depends on distance. Glocks are supposed to be sighted in for image 2 at 25 yards. When I can actually get my trigger control right, that's exactly how mine shoot.

Because of my bad trigger control, I tend to pull shots lower and start trending toward image 3 to compensate.

This makes sense to me.

I used sight picture #3 at 15' and my shots where high. I began to compensate and each shot got better.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_HyKXZv5NViY/TQ7jNzeUGqI/AAAAAAAA66c/DxlIRcyMVKQ/s512/2010-12-18%2010.24.18.jpg

I used sight picture #3 again at 50' and all my shots were high again. It would seem that #2 is the correct sight picture to use for Glock factory night sights.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_HyKXZv5NViY/TQ7huJJRx_I/AAAAAAAA66Q/jYayr_1xvv8/s640/2010-12-18%2010.40.43.jpg

If you shoot Sig Pistols, sight picture #3 would be correct. The G23 is my first Glock.

SIGlock
12-19-2010, 23:45
I have the correct answer for you:

SIGHT IMAGE #1. This is the correct sight picture whent the target circle touches the top of the front sight. However, the size of your target (Circle Diameter) has to be adjust depending on the distance. So, here is the data in order for you to SHOOT DEAD CENTER AT THE CENTER OF THE CIRCLE:

Circle Diameter = 1" at 25 feet. 2" at 50 feet. 3" at 75 feet (25 yds.)

bentbiker
12-20-2010, 00:06
Well I am not an experienced glock user, but I would also think it would be #3

You would be correct if you're shooting past 25 feet.

25 yards maybe, not feet.

#2 is the correct sighting for every Glock I've ever shot. Never shot one past 25 yards.
Out to 25yds, Glocks shoot low -- at the muzzle it is low by the distance between the top of the front sight and the bore axis. Putting the dot on the target raises the POI, so these offset each other somewhat. At 25yds the trajectory of the bullet rises to the POA. Beyond 25yds, the POI continues to rise above the POA (out to normal pistol distances) and raising the sight to put the dot on the target would just make it worse.

Giggity-Giggity
12-20-2010, 00:37
#3 for me.

AZ Husker
12-20-2010, 00:46
#3 is for night sights...it gets you close enough at night range. #2 is combat correct. #1 is the standard bullseye sighting, Glock sights aren't built for that picture.

Gallium
12-20-2010, 03:16
It does not matter, so long as you are consistent with where your hold (aim = sight alignment + sight picture) is.

I have a G34 with a Dawson fiber front sight. The fiber tube fell out. When I shoot that gun, I get my sight alignment, then look THRU the hole in the front sight to lock in my sight picture. I generally use #3 to place my hits on the intersecting lines on that type of target.

Here is a recent picture of me shooting a G17 at 50ft. I was aiming for the center of the post-it note, using sight picture #3.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t275/ml2010/RTF17-2.jpg

Kentucky Shooter
12-20-2010, 06:56
As already stated, I think you have #1 & #2 mixed up. Furthermore, unless you have adjustable sights, which factory glock sights do not, you have no choice.

How do you figure? #2 is point of aim and #1 is 6 o clock unless I am badly missing something in which case I would be glad to get an explanation.

CBH
12-20-2010, 07:08
Shooting my G19....#2 is used for closer targets, but #3 is what I use to hit the steel at 100 yds.

jamaicanj
12-20-2010, 07:23
#2 gets my vote

Bilbo Bagins
12-20-2010, 07:35
Usually #2 is the correct sight picture on a pistol, with #3 being your long distance shot since you need to compensate for bullet drop.

In rifle shooting all three would apply.

For example my AR is zeroed in at 25 meters, which means if I don't re adjust anything it will shoot high at say 150 meters, the come back down to zero at around 300 meters, then drop below zero beyond 350.

vmann
12-20-2010, 07:42
so if you using #2, your not using the dots in the sight, your using the top edge of the frame around the sights...i would think 3, but i dont use the 3 dot sights...if i did, i would line up the 3 dots and put that center dot where i wanted the bullet to hit, at the sighted in range ofcourse, otherwise i would adjust for distance to compensate for bullet drop....

CBH
12-20-2010, 07:51
so if you using #2, your not using the dots in the sight, your using the top edge of the frame around the sights...i would think 3, but i dont use the 3 dot sights...if i did, i would line up the 3 dots and put that center dot where i wanted the bullet to hit, at the sighted in range ofcourse, otherwise i would adjust for distance to compensate for bullet drop....

Were you in the Army? If so..did you shoot any hand guns? Have you never heard of the 6 o'clock hold?
http://www.tpub.com/content/advancement/12018/css/12018_387.htm

Captains1911
12-20-2010, 07:53
How do you figure? #2 is point of aim and #1 is 6 o clock unless I am badly missing something in which case I would be glad to get an explanation.

Because Glocks sights are fixed, and designed to be used as pic #2. If you use #1 you're POI is going to be low (i.e. you are aiming at the bottom of the target). Fixed sights have no elevation adjustment that would allow you to sight the gun in however you would like. This really is not all that complicated.

Billy10mm
12-20-2010, 07:55
Glock sights are designed for a 6 o'clock hold - image #2 is the correct one for a Glock.

Captains1911
12-20-2010, 08:36
Glock sights are designed for a 6 o'clock hold - image #2 is the correct one for a Glock.

What???? Image #1 is a 6 o'clock hold, Image #2 is a POA sight picture. Image #2 is the correct one. This thread is going to confuse more people than it's going to do good for.

DeltaNu1142
12-20-2010, 08:42
This thread is a comedy of errors... user "Kentucky Shooter" went back & reversed #1 and #2 AFTER being corrected by user "bentbiker". So now if you read "bentbiker"'s correction, it's wrong.

You guys have to take into account the 4th dimension.

Or someone could repost the original image with correct labels...

dvrdwn72
12-20-2010, 08:54
subscribed

JBP55
12-20-2010, 09:36
The correct answer for a combat style pistol is #2.

redbaron007
12-20-2010, 10:09
It does not matter, so long as you are consistent with where your hold (aim = sight alignment + sight picture) is.

I have a G34 with a Dawson fiber front sight. The fiber tube fell out. When I shoot that gun, I get my sight alignment, then look THRU the hole in the front sight to lock in my sight picture. I generally use #3 to place my hits on the intersecting lines on that type of target.

Here is a recent picture of me shooting a G17 at 50ft. I was aiming for the center of the post-it note, using sight picture #3.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t275/ml2010/RTF17-2.jpg


^^^
BINGO!!!

My g26 is #2; my g32 is #3.



:wavey:


red

whatsupglock
12-20-2010, 10:16
This post opens a big can of worms. It could be all three. It depends more on which ammo is used in which gun with what barrel. You could shoot the exact same ammo in two different guns and get different results. The best sight picture for you is the one that works for you with the ammo you've used. Sight picture 1 and 2 are both correct depending on how the gun is set up, ie point of impact/point of aim, or pumpkin on post. #3 is compensating for poor technique maybe, but not necessarily.

My Glocks shoot point of aim point of impact like #2 with Warren and Trijicon Sights.

Slug71
12-20-2010, 10:19
I always use #2.

#3 seems like it would mostly apply to night sights.

Captains1911
12-20-2010, 10:34
This thread is full of failure. If you're a newbie, don't even bother reading it.

Captains1911
12-20-2010, 10:37
This post opens a big can of worms. It could be all three. It depends more on which ammo is used in which gun with what barrel. You could shoot the exact same ammo in two different guns and get different results. The best sight picture for you is the one that works for you with the ammo you've used. Sight picture 1 and 2 are both correct depending on how the gun is set up, ie point of impact/point of aim, or pumpkin on post. #3 is compensating for poor technique maybe, but not necessarily.

My Glocks shoot point of aim point of impact like #2 with Warren and Trijicon Sights.

You are wrong, there is no can of worms, and it is not all three. Sight picture should not change with ammo. And what do you mean how the gun is setup? The OP is asking about factory glock sights, which are fixed. There is no "setup", it is what it is. For all practical pistol shooting distances and all ammo, it is Image 2. It's that simple. Stop trying to complicate something that is so simple.

Gallium
12-20-2010, 10:47
You are wrong, there is no can of worms, and it is not all three. Sight picture should not change with ammo. And what do you mean how the gun is setup? The OP is asking about factory glock sights, which are fixed. There is no "setup", it is what it is. For all practical pistol shooting distances and all ammo, it is Image 2. It's that simple. Stop trying to complicate something that is so simple.

Here is a recent picture of me shooting a G17 at 50ft. I was aiming for the center of the post-it note, using sight picture #3...

And that gun had Glock plastic sights. I put the SIGHTS (actual dot) on what I want to shoot, not the top of the sight.

If it really was "that simple", would we be having a discussion about it?

'Drew

SawgrassRaven
12-20-2010, 10:54
This thread is full of failure. If you're a newbie, don't even bother reading it.



Yep.


This thread reminds me of the "My gun shoots left, which way to I move my rear sight?" thread. What a trainwreck that was.

Anyone remember that one?

:supergrin:

Gallium
12-20-2010, 10:55
Yep.


This thread reminds me of the "My gun shoots left, which way to I move my rear sight?" thread. What a trainwreck that thread was.

Anyone remember that one?

:supergrin:

Yes. The gun stays stationary, and you move your body up to make your hits go to the right, except if you are shooting a rifle chambered in a pistol caliber...

Captains1911
12-20-2010, 10:55
Yep.


This thread reminds me of the "My gun shoots left, which way to I move my rear sight?" thread. What a trainwreck that thread was.

Anyone remember that one?

:supergrin:

I do remember that, and it's exactly what i thought of when this thread was created.

Clay1
12-20-2010, 11:01
a couple of things going on here, your number one is what many target shooter use when shooting round bulls eyes for targets. The front sight blade can be made to have a CONSISTANTLY thin line of white light between the black bull and the front sight. Again, many bulleye shooter use this method. Method 2 is what most combat shooters use. Your image 3 is a result of many sights using the 3 dot system or the popularity of the fiber optic inserts. While it is easy to see how you came up with that method the fiber optic inserts were meant to get you on target quickly and were never meant to be a precise aiming method. Just get the damn dot on the targer and pull baby!

The next big thing going on here is sighting in your gun. Just because you have to use one hold or another to get it to print where you want it to doesn't mean that is the preferred method. With adjustable sights, we move the sights so that the correct sight picture is seen and it matches up with the point of impact.

With fixed sights you can still get the sight picture to be correct. The rear sight is drifted one direction or the other for windage, left right movement. When it comes to the front, in the old days if it was too tall you filed the thing down. These days you buy a replacement blade of a different height in order to match your point of impact with your chosen ammo.

Don't think that all ammo will print to the same spot. Sure, at 7 feet it's no big deal, but many IDPA and USPSA matches have target that go to 50 yards and beyond. Sight in your gun with your ammo of choice.

The internet is a wonderful thing, but there is a lot of bull floating around too. Good luck finding good sound examples to learn the right way. A good basic pistol course might be right up your alley.

Rick

Captains1911
12-20-2010, 11:05
A good basic pistol course might be right up your alley.

Rick

A good basic pistol course will also teach you that #2 is the correct sight picture.......

Rman 585
12-20-2010, 11:22
Can anyone tell me what is the BEST Glock is????
What should i use to clean my Glock
Is gen 4 better than gen3......................LOL :)

Clay1
12-20-2010, 11:26
Can anyone tell me what is the BEST Glock is????
What should i use to clean my Glock
Is gen 4 better than gen3......................LOL :)

Now that is damn straight trolling and if you get a bite on that the fishing must be easy. :cool: :rofl:

Good place for a little levity.

Of the course the answer is a G19, Break Free and of course the Gen 4 is better, I just bought one. :faint:

Rman 585
12-20-2010, 11:31
Right on needed some levity .....But I say G34....Hoppes #9.....and gen 3 :tongueout::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

RockMyKimber
12-20-2010, 11:34
Me personally, #2 unless I am well past 25 yrds(which I shoot in prone or kneeling), then I go to #3, its not a stupid question, you would be surprised how many people think #3 is the proper sight picture, their thoughts are the dots are there for a reason which is true but they are more for target acquisition then sight alignment but are meant to aid in both.

Now if shooting from prone or kneeling(assuming you are past 25 yrds) many will by nature drop their front sight shooting low and in a time of stress this happens naturally even to experienced shooters, I personally use #3 in the prone and kneeling position, sometimes I shoot slightly high but when aiming center mass I would prefer to shoot a little high then a little low when truly attempting to eliminate an imminent threat.

All of this is of course dependent greatly on the firearm and ammo used and is a generalization for basic needs, I would suggest as others have to find your preferred self defense rounds and target rounds and train with those ONLY especially when talking about cheap target rounds as they can vary greatly as far as POI when you get out past 25 yrds. At least do this until you learn your weapon. Once you get used to your weapon and understand how it performs with said ammo then you can grab w/e is available to practice with and run drills, but I would suggest sticking with what ever SD ammo you KNOW runs and performs properly and consistently.


Another thing to consider is a decent training course in your area, the weapon is useless without the proper training, and I can guarantee you that a lot of people around here have never fired their weapons when their heart rate was over 115-BPM(loss of fine motor skills) and that is a game changer and a good class would provide you with the experience and teach you how to maintain the proper sight alignment and picture along with other useful tools.

But even with all the training in the world if one doesnt practice often, your skill will diminish, it has been proven that shooting is a perishable skill that must be maintained.

Slug71
12-20-2010, 11:43
Can anyone tell me what is the BEST Glock is????
What should i use to clean my Glock
Is gen 4 better than gen3......................LOL :)

G38...
Hoppes9
OD Gen3....

:whistling:

Clay1
12-20-2010, 11:53
Right on needed some levity .....But I say G34....Hoppes #9.....and gen 3 :tongueout::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

A 34???? I own two 34s and while they are a great gun, didn't you hear me, I JUST BOUGHT A GEN4 G19, so that must be the greatest Glock. Hoppes is for old men who like to wear it as perfume while they dream of the days that they could still chase Moma around the house.

Rman 585, R you getting the desired effect yet? I'm feeling silly today, sorry to the original OP for getting so far off his serious question.

The point is that many of us have opionions on "what is the way to do things" Try to read a good solid book on firearms. As an old guy, I also like Bill Jordan, Elmer Keither, Colonel Jeff Cooper. Get a good basic intro book. If your goal is target shooting get a book about that, if self defense is your goal get a good book about that, if you want to play gun games like IDPA, USPSA ..... well you get the idea.

Clay1
12-20-2010, 12:17
I usually don't take the time to do this kind of stuff but check out this link: http://www.lawenforcementservices.biz/PDF%20file/Basic%20Pistol%20Shooting%20Techniques.pdf

Then for fun read what this man has to say and really listen: http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/rkba/Cooper_Quotes.htm

Have fun and welcome to handgun shooting the journey is half the fun. Enjoy your trip.

Butch
12-20-2010, 12:40
#3 for me.
It does not matter, so long as you are consistent with where your hold (aim = sight alignment + sight picture) is.

Correct!

Everyone should sight in their gun so they will hit where they want to hit by holding the sights on the target the way they want to do it!

Myself, I use a hold similar to #2....unless I'm shooting competitive bullseye, then I use #1, but the gun is sighted in so the rounds will hit the center of the bullseye.

This thread is full of failure. If you're a newbie, don't even bother reading it.
YUP! Better to go read my blog-> BLOG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?u=135)
Titles:
The six o’clock hold (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=6)
Sighting in for Dummies (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=5)
Trigger Control for Dummies (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=4)
Use the Reset Luke…. (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=7)
Nomenclature the easy way (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=3)
Glock Trigger Combinations (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=8)
Trigger Spring Broke? Keep Shooting! (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=10)
Using the Glock Magazine Loader (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=90)

Gallium
12-20-2010, 12:47
Correct!

Everyone should sight in their gun so they will hit where they want to hit by holding the sights on the target the way they want to do it!... (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=90)

Your plan is patently transparent to me sir. I know what you're up to!

Yer quoting me in the hopes I'll sign up for GSSF so you can soundly and roundly kick my arse! :rofl::tongueout:

But I'm smarter than that. I'll just keep sniping from behind my screen, like the keyboard commando I am.

:wavey:

'Drew

vmann
12-20-2010, 12:56
Were you in the Army? If so..did you shoot any hand guns? Have you never heard of the 6 o'clock hold?
http://www.tpub.com/content/advancement/12018/css/12018_387.htm
no need to be a ****** bag...6 oclock hold is not even represented in thoes pics in my book...the sights, ie the dots would be lined up at the 6, so pic #1 is close, but the dots are not at 6, they are below 6...#2 is again, alomost 6, but the dots are lined up north of 6...they all look wrong to me...but like i said, my glocks seem to hit best with center hold...

Captains1911
12-20-2010, 13:04
Everyone should sight in their gun so they will hit where they want to hit by holding the sights on the target the way they want to do it!



What the hell am I missing here? How do you sight in a gun for elevation when there are no elevation adjustments? I think a lot of confusion in this thread is due to the fact that the OP is talking about standard factory glock sights, not some other type of "iron" sighting system where the shooter does have the ability to adjust the sight picture to his preference.

JBP55
12-20-2010, 13:07
Of the course the answer is a G19, Break Free and of course the Gen 4 is better, I just bought one. :faint:

Excellent answer.

Butch
12-20-2010, 15:07
What the hell am I missing here? How do you sight in a gun for elevation when there are no elevation adjustments? I think a lot of confusion in this thread is due to the fact that the OP is talking about standard factory glock sights, not some other type of "iron" sighting system where the shooter does have the ability to adjust the sight picture to his preference.
There's always a way.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/Glock%20sights/four_rear_sights-marked.jpg

Captains1911
12-20-2010, 15:09
There's always a way.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/Glock%20sights/four_rear_sights-marked.jpg

I know that there's a way, but that's not what the OP is asking about.

redbaron007
12-20-2010, 16:21
I know that there's a way, but that's not what the OP is asking about.


Just about every Glock I have shot out of the box, didn't shoot the same way; therefore, you had to compensate. Recently my 26 & 32 shot differently out of the box with fixed sights, as stated earlier...I had to adjust to the sights. :dunno:

Even after replacing the sights on my 26 with Trijicon NS, it shot the same. My 32 came with Glock NS.


:wavey:


red

tango44
12-20-2010, 16:31
#2 of course!

Gallium
12-20-2010, 16:33
What the hell am I missing here? How do you sight in a gun for elevation when there are no elevation adjustments? I think a lot of confusion in this thread is due to the fact that the OP is talking about standard factory glock sights, not some other type of "iron" sighting system where the shooter does have the ability to adjust the sight picture to his preference.


Well what are you talking about? The OP did not ask about elevation. To shoot any Glock with fixed factory sights (or any generic handgun with fixed sights for that matter), what you do is aim higher if you target is @ an elevation above yours (ie, point the gun at the target). :tongueout::rofl:

If you're talking about adjusting the "hold" or changing the sight picture to compensate for bullet drop, you change the relationship between the front/rear sights. Instead of the top of the front sight being flush with the rears ("equal height, equal light"), the front sight is canted up.

If this is not what yer asking, could you clarify please?

'Drew
:cool:

Butch
12-20-2010, 16:49
I know that there's a way, but that's not what the OP is asking about.
Just about every Glock I have shot out of the box, didn't shoot the same way.......
Exactly!

Like all too many people, the OP seems to expect the gun to be perfectly sighted in as it comes out of the box, and ya just need to find out how to align the sights to make it hit 'right', but that's not the case.

He's right about needing to learn how to align the sights 'correctly', but like nearly every other gun, Glocks do not always hit to the same point of aim as the next one does, and the user needs to sight it in to shoot the way he wants it to.

Glocks manufacturing process is VERY consistent though, and they do tend to shoot very close to the point of aim as they come out of the box, so close that they, if anything, normally only need a very little drifting of the rear sight, or on rare occasions, a rear sight that is only a fraction of a millimeter higher or lower to get the job done.

IF a person is new to Glocks, they may well be shooting 4 to 6 inches low and left, which is why they are asking about how to align the sights thinking the gun may not be shooting straight.....but we all know what the real problem is. :)

chukb
12-20-2010, 16:57
I always use #2.

#3 seems like it would mostly apply to night sights.
i always use #2 too but why would it be any different with night sights?

Slug71
12-20-2010, 17:41
i always use #2 too but why would it be any different with night sights?

Well i guess it wouldnt be, but if it was dark, youd just be making sure your dots are in line and point them at your target as best you can.
Since you cant really see the cross in #3, for me personally thats how i would aim in the dark. Just a personal thing i guess.

Glockdude1
12-20-2010, 18:23
#2.

:cool:

windplex
12-20-2010, 18:33
Well what are you talking about? The OP did not ask about elevation. To shoot any Glock with fixed factory sights (or any generic handgun with fixed sights for that matter), what you do is aim higher if you target is @ an elevation above yours (ie, point the gun at the target). :tongueout::rofl:

OK I got it.

But what if the target it so my left?

...

If this is not what yer asking, could you clarify please?

'Drew
:cool:

I now know where Mitch took up his new residence:supergrin:

MarkTX
12-20-2010, 18:37
Just about every Glock I have shot out of the box, didn't shoot the same way; therefore, you had to compensate. Recently my 26 & 32 shot differently out of the box with fixed sights, as stated earlier...I had to adjust to the sights...


Exactly.

I guess, for the OP, it might be nice to have an idea what Glock sets their sights up to do. But unless you shoot the same ammo they use for this setup -its a moot point. You just have to bench the gun and figure out what that gun with those sights and ammo are doing on target. Then decide if you want to adjust your technique to fit that combo or make some changes to the sights.

I rarely even shoot a new Glock with the sights the factory provides. I often have a new sight set ordered before I take the new gun to the range :whistling:

Captains1911
12-20-2010, 18:44
Well what are you talking about? The OP did not ask about elevation. To shoot any Glock with fixed factory sights (or any generic handgun with fixed sights for that matter), what you do is aim higher if you target is @ an elevation above yours (ie, point the gun at the target). :tongueout::rofl:

If you're talking about adjusting the "hold" or changing the sight picture to compensate for bullet drop, you change the relationship between the front/rear sights. Instead of the top of the front sight being flush with the rears ("equal height, equal light"), the front sight is canted up.

If this is not what yer asking, could you clarify please?

'Drew
:cool:

I give up.

SomeDay
12-20-2010, 18:58
Can anyone tell me what is the BEST Glock is????
What should i use to clean my Glock
Is gen 4 better than gen3......................LOL :)

Wrong thread - that belongs in Glockdude's "Tittles of threads sure to be locked".

As for my 2 cents, #2 is what I use. While I am no sharp shooter, i do tend to hit what I'm aiming at with that. I use #3 when the target is much further out.

varoadking
12-20-2010, 19:08
Image #2 is a POA sight picture. Image #2 is the correct one.

This ^^^^

glock2740
12-20-2010, 19:19
I wish Hickock45 would chime in, because I'd really be interested in hearing what he had to say about it.

CynicX
12-20-2010, 22:11
I shoot my 1911 #2, this is the way I prefer it too be.

Unfortunately my G32 shoots #3 from 7' to 30+ yards. I dont really care for covering the target like that but its the way it shoots.

Oddly enough I just figured it shot low. I let a friend shoot it and he was running a tight group around the bullseye. I asked him how he shot and he said cover the target with the front sight (#3) like I was an idiot. That the way I've been shooting, seems to work...

Wake County Glockman
12-20-2010, 22:31
The one in the middle sight picture #2

Butch
12-20-2010, 22:34
Unfortunately my G32 shoots #3 from 7' to 30+ yards. I dont really care for covering the target like that but its the way it shoots.
So, why don't you put a higher rear sight on it?

Captains1911
12-21-2010, 08:27
So I guess the final answer is, it should be Image #2 by design and intent, as every handgun with non adjustable sights that I have ever owned or shot has been, but some guns may be defective and therefore will require either Image #1 or #3.:dunno:

ZombieKing
12-21-2010, 09:26
Which picture do you use if you're holding the gun sideways gangsta style? :stooges:

Butch
12-21-2010, 10:13
So I guess the final answer is, it should be Image #2 by design and intent, as every handgun with non adjustable sights that I have ever owned or shot has been, but some guns may be defective and therefore will require either Image #1 or #3.:dunno:
Except for the last part, I think that's a fair assessment.

I don't agree that a Glock is 'defective' because it doesn't shoot to point of aim as it leaves the factory.

The shooter has a lot of input as to where the gun shoots, primarily the shooters vision and ability to control recoil can affect the guns point of impact, but how the shooter aligns the sights can have a huge affect. That's why the shooter needs to sight the gun in to fit him and his shooting style and ability.

If we were talking about S&W Model 10 revolvers or SAA Colts, it would be a lot less reasonable for shooters to 'sight them in' because they really do have fixed sights, but Glock sights can be moved/replaced easily enough to get the point of impact right where the shooter wants it to be.

Gallium
12-21-2010, 10:14
So I guess the final answer is, it should be Image #2 by design and intent, as every handgun with non adjustable sights that I have ever owned or shot has been, but some guns may be defective and therefore will require either Image #1 or #3.:dunno:

No. The final matter is, a consistent hold and picture are far more important than anything else.

Why does it matter what sight picture you use, so long as you are consistent, and have adjusted for the specific round you are shooting.

I say this "bullet" stuff because anyone who is shooting at 25 yards and beyond should and must already have a fine and detailed grasp of shooting fundamentals to be any good at it. In this thread I posted a picture of a (very typical for me) 5 shot group on a 3" post it note. This was a 1.5" group at 50ft (max distance at my range) shooting a factory stock Glock 17 RTF2 with factory plastic sights, using sight hold #3, two handed grip, standing without any sort of rest.


'Drew

mrsurfboard
12-21-2010, 10:23
I was always taught #2.

sciolist
12-21-2010, 12:01
I think the confusion is that O/P's question assumed there is no vertical adjustability in OE sights = how do I aim the gun to make it work as intended? I can relate, as this was the same question I had at the outset.

In reality, there is vertical adjustment via the different OE rear sight heights offered by Glock, and the shooter can also choose a prefered sight picture - so two separate variables there.

My two Glocks shoot a little differently in OE form, but both would shoot a tad low with picture #2 at defensive or match range (with 6.5mm R/S).

Under pressure of the timer, when my fundamentals start to erode, I will tend to shoot a bit low, so using #3 would be a hedge.

O/P's diagrams are somewhat misleading in that they portray F/S, R/S and target in equal focus. In reality, F/S dominates. For that reason, I find #3 very easy and intuitive for OE sights... until the range becomes great enough that the target is smaller than the F/S. My first thought on that was to stick with #3, and get a more slender F/S. Now that I have a little more experience, can definitely see the overall flexibility of #2, though. As technique improves, will probably gravitate toward #2.

But all things considered, as a rookie shooter, for classes, matches and just to learn visual, movement and trigger fundamentals, #3 worked fine for me in first year. Even if the gun were "sighted in" from the factory at #2, I would still be getting about the same number of A Zone hits using #3 inside of 20 yards or so.

Captains1911
12-21-2010, 12:25
I think the confusion is that O/P's question assumed there is no vertical adjustability in OE sights = how do I aim the gun to make it work as intended?

this is exactly what I've been trying to say (and said in Post #58) this entire time.

sciolist
12-21-2010, 15:07
this is exactly what I've been trying to say (and said in Post #58) this entire time.

Understood and agreed, but no one seems to be paying much attention, so thought I would add a voice.

Sonnytoo
12-21-2010, 16:01
Since you switched things around, I'll just say the 6 o'clock hold. I have quite a number of Glocks, and at 15 yards from a rest, they all shoot 1.5" higher than Point of Aim...with many different brands, calibers and weights of ammo.
Most recently, my new G19 and G36, 1.5" high at 15 yards.
Sonnytoo

Butch
12-21-2010, 17:00
In case there's anyone who hasn't had enough yet, here's an old post of mine on the subject. I'll have to split it into two posts as it has too many pictures in it for one post.
--------------------------------------------------------

Sight alignment: Front and rear sight aligned so the front sight fills in the rear notch evenly on both sides, and flat across the top.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/Glock_Sight_alignment.jpg



Sight picture with six o'clock hold: Sights aligned like above with the top edge of the front sight at the bottom edge of the bullseye. The reason for this hold is to provide a specific, repeatable point of aim as compared to trying to aim at an undefined point in the 'middle' of the target, which is very difficult to find on a consistent basis, especially at distance.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/Glock_Sight_Pic-1.jpg



Sight picture with three 'bullet holes' impacting the target at the point of aim: This is how most people would like to have their gun sighted in for most purposes - 'point of aim = point of impact'. Competitive bullseye shooters would have their gun sighted in so the bullets impact above the point of aim in the center of the bullseye so they can get the best score.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/Glock_Sight_Pic-holes.jpg



Using the six o'clock hold allows the shooter to do his best/most consistent shooting which gives the best shot groups. Good shot groups make it much easier to make accurate sight changes so the point of aim can be 'moved' to the point of impact.

(next page)

Butch
12-21-2010, 17:01
A gun sighted in like this can be used to hit most anything, like a steel plate at 11 yards:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/Glock_Sight_onplate.jpg



Or a humanoid target up close:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/Glock_Sight_onsilh-close.jpg



Or a humanoid target further away:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/Glock_Sight_onsilh-far.jpg



Or a pop(soda) can at 50 yards:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/Glock_Sight_onpopcan-50yds.jpg


Also, the 'bullseye' target doesn't *have* to be round for those of you who may have a phobia* about bullseye shooting, it can be any shape as long as it gives the ability to aim at a specific, repeatable spot on the target. It should be about the same width as the front sight when aiming at it, and big enough to see at your chosen shooting distance without having to focus on it (your visual focus needs to be on your front sight).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/sight%20pictures/GLOCK_SIGHT_pic-triangle.jpg

* Unfortunately all too many police/tactical/self defense trainers these days don't see the value of bullseye type target shooting, they seem to think it 'has nothing to do with COMBAT shooting', and they couldn't be more wrong. Use of the bullseye target is simply the best way for a shooter to learn the basic skills required for accurate shooting.....sight alignment and trigger control.

It's also a great aid in getting your gun sighted in correctly! We're not shooting S&W or Colt revolvers with sights that are *really* fixed anymore, we can and SHOULD adjust the sights to fit the individual shooting the gun.

Gallium
12-21-2010, 17:35
I think the confusion is that O/P's question assumed there is no vertical adjustability in OE sights = how do I aim the gun to make it work as intended?...


this is exactly what I've been trying to say (and said in Post #58) this entire time.


I think you (Captain) are the one not understanding what people are saying.

What me, n Butch, and a couple of others have said, is, it does not matter WHICH you use to shoot, so long as you are consistent. If you fire one shot, at crosshairs using #1, and it is low, adjust the point of aim and continue shooting and continue to assess your results.

Ditto if you use 2, or 3.

What Butch has also said is, each of us is different, hold guns different, have different hand-eye co-ordination. There is no one size fits all. There is no universally "correct" way to put sights on a target. So long as you follow the primary fundamentals (maintain your sight picture, don't disturb this with arc of motion or trigger press, and follow thru), and note where your shots hit, you will have no issue.

THERE IS NO HARD AND FAST RULE FOR PUTTING A HANDGUN'S SIGHTS ON A TARGET.

'Drew

Captains1911
12-21-2010, 17:50
I think you (Captain) are the one not understanding what people are saying.

What me, n Butch, and a couple of others have said, is, it does not matter WHICH you use to shoot, so long as you are consistent. If you fire one shot, at crosshairs using #1, and it is low, adjust the point of aim and continue shooting and continue to assess your results.

Ditto if you use 2, or 3.

What Butch has also said is, each of us is different, hold guns different, have different hand-eye co-ordination. There is no one size fits all. There is no universally "correct" way to put sights on a target. So long as you follow the primary fundamentals (maintain your sight picture, don't disturb this with arc of motion or trigger press, and follow thru), and note where your shots hit, you will have no issue.

THERE IS NO HARD AND FAST RULE FOR PUTTING A HANDGUN'S SIGHTS ON A TARGET.

'Drew

Nope, I absolutely don't understand. With any of my guns, if I consistently use Image #1, the POI will consistently be low. If I use Image #3, they will consistently be high.

The gun doesn't know or care who is holding it an shooting it, if the sights are aligned properly the gun is going to consistently shoot where it is pointed, whether it's me holding it, a buddy of mine, or if I put the gun in a vice to take the human element completely out of it. It doesn't matter, Image #2 is going to result in the POI = the center of the target.

Captains1911
12-21-2010, 17:52
oops, double tap

SomeDay
12-21-2010, 18:35
Butch,,

Thank you - that was clear, concise, and understandable.

rockabillyrider
12-21-2010, 18:48
Correct!

Everyone should sight in their gun so they will hit where they want to hit by holding the sights on the target the way they want to do it!

Myself, I use a hold similar to #2....unless I'm shooting competitive bullseye, then I use #1, but the gun is sighted in so the rounds will hit the center of the bullseye.


YUP! Better to go read my blog-> BLOG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?u=135)
Titles:
The six o’clock hold (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=6)
Sighting in for Dummies (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=5)
Trigger Control for Dummies (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=4)
Use the Reset Luke…. (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=7)
Nomenclature the easy way (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=3)
Glock Trigger Combinations (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=8)
Trigger Spring Broke? Keep Shooting! (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=10)
Using the Glock Magazine Loader (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=90)

Tagged for my wife. Thanks :wavey:

Gallium
12-21-2010, 19:09
Nope, I absolutely don't understand. With any of my guns, if I consistently use Image #1, the POI will consistently be low. If I use Image #3, they will consistently be high.

The gun doesn't know or care who is holding it an shooting it, if the sights are aligned properly the gun is going to consistently shoot where it is pointed, whether it's me holding it, a buddy of mine, or if I put the gun in a vice to take the human element completely out of it. It doesn't matter, Image #2 is going to result in the POI = the center of the target.


Please show us a picture of your target (results) and the distance you are shooting.

It is factually incorrect for you to state, unequivocally, that sight picture #2 is the only result where that sight picture results in hits directly on the cross hairs of the target, since I've had factory Glocks right out the box that shot high, or low (two out of 12+ stock factory Glocks).

I've also had numerous (non factory) Glocks with incorrect rear <> front sights, as I've had SIGs whose front/rear sights were not matched up.

You shoot the gun, see where the shots hit, and either adjust the sights, change the sights, or change your sight picture. What's so hard in that to understand?

If you care, please post pictures of your targets and provide details on the distance, etc.

'drew

Captains1911
12-21-2010, 19:25
Please show us a picture of your target (results) and the distance you are shooting.

It is factually incorrect for you to state, unequivocally, that sight picture #2 is the only result where that sight picture results in hits directly on the cross hairs of the target, since I've had factory Glocks right out the box that shot high, or low (two out of 12+ stock factory Glocks).

I've also had numerous (non factory) Glocks with incorrect rear <> front sights, as I've had SIGs whose front/rear sights were not matched up.

You shoot the gun, see where the shots hit, and either adjust the sights, change the sights, or change your sight picture. What's so hard in that to understand?

If you care, please post pictures of your targets and provide details on the distance, etc.

'drew

Like I said earlier, Image #2 by design, unless the gun (sights) are defective (i.e. not functioning as intended).

Sorry, I don't save my targets, but if I did I'm not sure what pics of them would prove.

lethal tupperwa
12-21-2010, 20:05
in Butch's pics notice the Top of the front sight is Even with the Top of the rear sight.

the amount of space on either side of the front sight is Even.

And for you who might not know, Butch is the same Butch that Won the Gunny Challenge

Twice.

Gallium
12-21-2010, 20:28
Like I said earlier, Image #2 by design, unless the gun (sights) are defective (i.e. not functioning as intended).

Sorry, I don't save my targets, but if I did I'm not sure what pics of them would prove.


Well for starters, if you're honest with yourself, how good a shot you are. I kinda filter who I engage in discussions / heed advice from based on their knowledge, training and experience on the subject matter.


Do me a favor, go read the US Army Marksmanship Unit's papers on sight alignment, and tell me when you find the part that supports your claim, that picture #2 from this thread is the only correct way to maintain the correct hold (sight alignment + sight picture) on a target.


Also google: "human eye relative to sight alignment".

Also,
...Place the top edge of the front sight post on the aiming point of the target. It will be up to the individual shooter whether the top edge of the front sight post is just below the aiming point, or covers the aiming point.

Read more: How to Align Gun Sights | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/how_5690880_align-gun-sights.html#ixzz18nsAKues) http://www.ehow.com/how_5690880_align-gun-sights.html#ixzz18nsAKues



I'm also curious to know where exactly you learned so solidly that the top edge of the sights MUST be held on the center of the target. In my over 500 hours of student and instructor level training (pistol), no one from none of the schools I've been to have ever insisted on this. All of them, almost to a fault have said what the AMU says, which is not what you are saying.

So, where did you glean this irrefutable knowledge from?

'Drew

G36_Me
12-21-2010, 20:54
For my Glocks, I agree with bentbiker. I shoot quite abit of GSSF indoor, so, for me I have to adjust my hold for 12ft, 25ft, 50 ft and then even at 75ft.

At 12ft, I have to use similar sight picture to your picture 3 (aiming a bit high). As I move out to 25 ft and 50 ft I move more to picture 2 (middle of the target).

I only use the 6 o'clock hold for bullseye shooting where I have adjustable sights. In the old bullseye days you had a log book to adjust the sights when changing your distance. We don't have that with fixed sights.

Sonnytoo
12-21-2010, 23:19
Do me a favor, go read the US Army Marksmanship Unit's papers on sight alignment, and tell me when you find the part that supports your claim, that picture #2 from this thread is the only correct way to maintain the correct hold (sight alignment + sight picture) on a target.
Also google: "human eye relative to sight alignment".
In my over 500 hours of student and instructor level training (pistol), no one from none of the schools I've been to have ever insisted on this. All of them, almost to a fault have said what the AMU says, which is not what you are saying.
'Drew

+1
Anyone here who has participated in Bullseye shooting and has read or studied the primary aspects of this sport is aware that the 6 o'clock hold is the ONLY hold recommended by the national and international handgun marksmen who compete annually at Camp Perry.
Whether or not Glock pistols are "designed" for that type of sight alignment is unknown to me. However, my two latest Glocks, Gen3 19 + 36, do impact @ 1.4" higher than POA @ 10 yards, 2/3" group c-c, using a "traditional" six o'clock hold. My other Glocks, all fixed sights, exhibit similar behavior.
Extended to 25 yards, this would tend to place the bullets quite nicely in the middle of the standardized 25 yard Bullseye slow-fire target.

Here is the link to that AMU manal's Chapter 2 on Sight Alignment:
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter2.htm
Sonnytoo

Gallium
12-22-2010, 03:18
...
Whether or not Glock pistols are "designed" for that type of sight alignment is unknown to me. ...

:)


The primary problems here are ...

1. Folks think somehow that aiming a Glock is different than aiming a SIG, M&P, or any other type of semi auto pistol.

2. People think this question has not been asked, answered, tested, proven and put to good use many times in the past 50+ years.


It simply boils down to "equal height, equal light" + consistency + observing where your shots hit.

'Drew

G36_Me
12-22-2010, 07:26
This is a good and important thread.

The link supplied to the reproduction of the AMU book starts with: "Sight alignment is the most important contribution to firing an accurate shot."

Does it really matter that this topic has been discussed a million times? No.

This topic never gets old. There are several variations of this discussion which are titled differently.
The topics might be head lined: sight picture, sight alignment, where to place the sights on the target, where to hold the gun on the target, etc. Each of the topics is actually a different but may be related topic of focus.

This is a 'go to school thread.'
If you don't want to go to school, don't read this thread. If you don't want to teach, don't read this thread. If you don't want to debate, don't read this thread.

If you're a crabby old poster, we love you, stick around, you're worth more being here than being gone. Just expect some of us to treat you like a burned out geriatric. Your points are always well made but sometimes lack patience. [I'm in this class at times.]

My understanding of the original question (to stay focused, even though others have taken the discussion off topic to "sight alignment", is that the question is about "hold". Let me define hold (my definition, not sure why). Hold = where do I place the aligned sights on the target to allow the bullet to hit the center.

So hold for the fixed sight Glock is what I am directly talking about here. To be exact, I'm talking specifically about my G17.

We MUST, of course, make some assumptions in the answer:

not changing ammo during the course of fire,
not changing the grip,
not changing the "sight alignment".

We are just addressing where to hold the aligned sights to hit the center of the target. My input is given above and has been proven on the firing line over and over again by me.

To let you know how important the hold level is, my current mantra when shooting GSSF indoor is:
Grip - (hold) Height - Trigger - Light

1st shot mantra:
Grip means to me to get a solid consistent grip
Height means to pay attention to the stage (12ft, 25 ft, 50 ft or 75 ft) to be sure I'm holding at the level I need to be to not shoot high or low
Trigger means to start the trigger squeeze
Light means to change the focus to the sight alignment (as per the AMU guidelines).

Shots 2 - 10 the mantra is shortened to:
Trigger
Light

Enjoy, learn, teach, Merry Christmas

Sonnytoo
12-22-2010, 11:07
Were you in the Army? If so..did you shoot any hand guns? Have you never heard of the 6 o'clock hold?

Apparently nobody here was in the Service, as you guessed. Either that, or they have long-term memory loss. Or, they never shot Bullseye.
Sonnytoo

Sonnytoo
12-22-2010, 11:11
And that gun had Glock plastic sights. I put the SIGHTS (actual dot) on what I want to shoot, not the top of the sight.

If it really was "that simple", would we be having a discussion about it?

'Drew

Many people black out the white dots, as they're useless. Most revolver sights don't have dots. If you use the dot, then the top of the sight will obscure your target, which doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
Sonnytoo
Six o'clock hold is the way it's been done for centuries. But as someone earlier posted, the size of that target circle changes with distance. NRA targets do exactly the same thing: the bullseye diameter changes with distance.

Sonnytoo
12-22-2010, 11:13
This thread is a comedy of errors... user "Kentucky Shooter" went back & reversed #1 and #2 AFTER being corrected by user "bentbiker". So now if you read "bentbiker"'s correction, it's wrong.

You guys have to take into account the 4th dimension.

Or someone could repost the original image with correct labels...

Heck, somebody screwed the moose on this one. You NEVER change it once it's posted. Nobody has the slightest idea what's going on.
Sonnytoo

Sonnytoo
12-22-2010, 11:19
I wish Hickock45 would chime in, because I'd really be interested in hearing what he had to say about it.

If I was Hickock, I'd run away from this one, because 1/2 of these posters will think he's nuts, and the other half don't have the slightest idea.
Sonnytoo

Crom
12-22-2010, 15:20
I am the OP for this thread and I never imagined that this thread would go where it has. I mentioned in the first post that I have the metal Glock factory night sights which are the three dot sights. It is super clear to me from my shooting experience that sight picture #2 is correct for these sights at least it is on my G23.

Many people are comparing the plastic Glock factory sights to the sight picture. I have no idea how those work as I have never used them.

But I just wanted to point out that I was trying to understand how the Glock factory night sights were setup.

Thanks

Captains1911
12-22-2010, 15:27
I am the OP for this thread and I never imagined that this thread would go where it has. I mentioned in the first post that I have the metal Glock factory night sights which are the three dot sights. It is super clear to me from my shooting experience that sight picture #2 is correct for these sights at least it is on my G23.

Many people are comparing the plastic Glock factory sights to the sight picture. I have no idea how those work as I have never used them.

But I just wanted to point out that I was trying to understand how the Glock factory night sights were setup.

Thanks

And I still firmly believe that for practical shooting distances (3-15 yards or so) they are intended by Glock to be used as shown in Image #2. At least all the ones I have ever handled are.

There are some individuals on here with a great deal of experience and knowledge, however they seem to be grossly over-complicating the matter. It's almost like they're suggesting that for a given gun, sight picture, and distance, the POI will vary by shooter. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that one.

motorcyclist
12-22-2010, 16:17
Apparently nobody here was in the Service, as you guessed. Either that, or they have long-term memory loss. Or, they never shot Bullseye.
Sonnytoo

I was in the service and didn't know what a 6 o'clock was. You should have said Army or Marines. In Navy boot camp we were taught pretty much how not to blow our foot off and I never picked up another weapon in my 4 years. My "weapon" was a Simpson multi-meter!

MJB
12-22-2010, 18:06
I'm siding with Drew on this one. You do what works for YOU.

What else really matters? :dunno:

Sonnytoo
12-22-2010, 18:50
I was in the service and didn't know what a 6 o'clock was. You should have said Army or Marines. In Navy boot camp we were taught pretty much how not to blow our foot off and I never picked up another weapon in my 4 years. My "weapon" was a Simpson multi-meter!

I apologize for making assumptions that every military person has received weapons training. And thank you for your service.
p.s. I used a Simpson also, but had Army training.
Sonnytoo

Crom
12-22-2010, 23:08
And I still firmly believe that for practical shooting distances (3-15 yards or so) they are intended by Glock to be used as shown in Image #2. At least all the ones I have ever handled are.

There are some individuals on here with a great deal of experience and knowledge, however they seem to be grossly over-complicating the matter. It's almost like they're suggesting that for a given gun, sight picture, and distance, the POI will vary by shooter. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that one.

Right. I saw your posts, and we agree that the gun will do the exact same thing every time. People can hold the gun sideways and if they use sight picture #2 it will be accurate every time at least my G23 with Glock factory night sights would be. :)

Butch
12-22-2010, 23:45
Right. I saw your posts, and we agree that the gun will do the exact same thing every time. People can hold the gun sideways and if they use sight picture #2 it will be accurate every time at least my G23 with Glock factory night sights would be. :)
One specific gun will, but the next one may not. Then the shooter must either change the sights (sight it in), or hold 'off' to hit the desired spot.

In a perfect world, every Glock would come out of the box shooting perfectly to point of aim which would require that your sight picture #2 to be used. But it's not a perfect world.

Gallium
12-23-2010, 03:38
Crom, and Captain1911,

I ask you this: What distances do you typically shoot at, and with what ammo, and what are your results?

This thread and some of the responses remind me of the threads on where folks want to put a "match grade" barrel in their Glocks to "tighten up" the accuracy. When you inquire what their shooting skills are, it is generally no where near where such skills would see much use or benefit of a match grade barrel.

So I ask again, at what level are your respective shooting skills? Because believe it or not, the level of your skills will determine your ability to differentiate between the same exact metal night sights on two identical Glock models. This is what Butch and I have repeatedly been underscoring. Glock has never, to my knowledge issued a hard and fast rule for where to place the sights to make hits or tiny groups.

If anything, most schools of defensive/combat shooting are telling you to put the muzzle of the gun on whatever it is you want to shoot/destroy; and this is what Gunsite/Cooper's #2 rule for gun safety says. When you are training with the gun as a fighting weapon, you do not do anything else but #3 - you put the sights ON the target (if you have time for a sighted shot). Of course, this is contingent on distance, and mobility of either the target or shooter.

In the final analysis, despite what any of the more strident folks here are saying - and particularly since they cannot provide any real source as to what hold is correct, it is generally taught in the military, for bullseye competition, in the NRA (civilian and LE) and at most of the more popular shooting academies that one should not get too wound up on using #1, #2 or #3, but should instead pay more attention to a correct sight picture, sight alignment and consistent hold.

It's not THAT complicated.

'Drew

Darqnezz
12-23-2010, 05:38
#2. Draw an X or a + on the center of the target. Using hold #2, aim at where the lines intersect, and take 3-4 carefully aimed, SLOW fire shots, from 5-7 yards away. If you are not hitting EXACTLY where the lines cross, something is wrong with you (trigger control, follow through, grip etc.), or something is wrong with your gun (sights). Thats it period.

Gallium
12-23-2010, 06:07
#2. Draw an X or a + on the center of the target. Using hold #2, aim at where the lines intersect, and take 3-4 carefully aimed, SLOW fire shots, from 5-7 yards away. If you are not hitting EXACTLY where the lines cross, something is wrong with you (trigger control, follow through, grip etc.), or something is wrong with your gun (sights). Thats it period.


This may be correct for 5-7 yards. Glocks are zeroed (the point at which the sights and the bore axis intersect) for 25 yards.

So, if you are shooting at 25 yards directly at an x on target, with proper use of the fundamentals, your shot should be directly on target. When the bullet leaves the barrel, it is already somewhere between 0.100" ~ 0.300" depending on what sights you have on the gun. (Factory night sights are approx 0.165")

But if we're gonna split hairs, at any distance closer, your point of impact should be below your point of aim by the difference between the top of the sights and the bore of the gun (typically 0.165" for Glock factory night sights), taking into consideration what distance you are shooting.

But that's only if you really wanted to get "technical". :)

'Drew

Trgtguy
12-23-2010, 13:03
Sight picture #3 is the most difficult , if you shoot paper targets. This is because your POI is always behind the front dot and the front sight partially obscures your target dot if it's a small dot. To get the best compromise I like the #2 picture. This gives a good POA and does'nt cover part of your target. Night sights usually are #3 or [ dead on] for combat where you mostly care about center mass hits . First thing I do when I buy a Glock pistol is to get rid of the stock rear sight and install the rear adjustables you can order for $25.00 or so from two well known mail order companies. Easy to install yourself with simple tools such as a well made punch with a good square surface so it does'nt slip and marr the stock rear sight you may want to save, and a brass hammer. Looking from the rear of the pistol , gently tap out to your right untill it slips out of the dovetail ,and install your new from right to left , looking from the rear as in shooting.

hongster
12-23-2010, 18:21
I've been trained to cover whatever your shooting at with your front sight. But then I don't shoot bullseye but for combat/defense.

Sonnytoo
12-23-2010, 21:14
I use a 1" diameter "dot" @ 10 yards. Align the top of the sights (NOT the dots) at the BOTTOM of the dot and use a bench-rested wrist position. This lets you know where your gun hits at distances that really count. You are not likely to have to shoot much at targets 25 yds away. I guess that Glock feels that dots may be easier to see under some lighting conditions. I have always ignored the dots. My revolvers never have dots.
Sonnytoo

Gallium
12-24-2010, 05:10
I've been trained to cover whatever your shooting at with your front sight. But then I don't shoot bullseye but for combat/defense.

B-i-n-g-o. :)



I use a 1" diameter "dot" @ 10 yards. Align the top of the sights (NOT the dots) at the BOTTOM of the dot and use a bench-rested wrist position. This lets you know where your gun hits at distances that really count. You are not likely to have to shoot much at targets 25 yds away. I guess that Glock feels that dots may be easier to see under some lighting conditions. I have always ignored the dots. My revolvers never have dots.
Sonnytoo

Sonny, of the 100 + responses in this thread with over 20 unique contributants, how many of these 20 peope do you think can shoot a 1" group at 10 yards? :supergrin:

And, do you think the results are going to matter much at 10 yards shooting a 1" dot using #2, or #3?

The point is, we've been fluffering about a point that is relatively meaningless when we take into consideration


the design of the gun
it's intended use
skills set of the majority of operators (users) under a typical bell curve
the standard deviation in POI when looking at "x" number of Glocks.

Which is why some of us have maintained from the onset that #1, 2 or 3 is not.

If I were to take any of my (in my hands) most accurate Glocks (G37, G24, G17L, G35 with KKM 357SIG barrel) and shoot them at 10 yards using #2 or #3, the results would be at the most 1/0th of an inch different. At 15 yards (45 feet), the results would still be 1/10th of an inch different - just a about twice the difference between the top of my sight and the center of the dot on my sight.

At 25 yards (if I had a 25 yard range I would try it), you are now DEEP into the area of where the limits of accuracy of the pistol are greater that quibbling over #2 or #3. Even if you locked the gun into sturdy rest, you could not, and would not get results (at 25 yards) that are conclusive for anything.

Beyond 25 yards the ballistics of handgun rounds in Glock length barrels start behaving in ways not conducive for testing this type of detail (typically bullet drop).

I think I am now done on the subject, except I am genuinely curious - as a student who believes learning is continuous - to hear from Captains1911 as to where he received instruction on that #2 is the correct hold.

I am not trying to ram home a point. I am merely trying to find out where this information emanated from, and who/how/why they arrived at this conclusion (ie, the logic behind this).

'Drew
:cool:

CynicX
12-24-2010, 09:04
So, why don't you put a higher rear sight on it?

Good question. Unfortunately I dont have a good answer. To be honest, my groups are pretty lousy with Glocks in comparison to my 1911 or Sig. So I feel I need to learn to shoot it better before modifying it. Secondly, I know how it shoots, an as long as I know that its not really too much of a concern....

Butch
12-24-2010, 09:18
To be honest, my groups are pretty lousy with Glocks in comparison to my 1911 or Sig. So I feel I need to learn to shoot it better before modifying it.
Good plan.

It's been my experience that trigger control is the most likely problem when one is not getting good results with a Glock. I would urge you to get some dummy rounds and read this-> http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=4

Give it a try! And let me know how it goes!

CynicX
12-24-2010, 09:47
Good plan.

It's been my experience that trigger control is the most likely problem when one is not getting good results with a Glock. I would urge you to get some dummy rounds and read this-> http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=4

Give it a try! And let me know how it goes!

Been there done that. I will admit there is more movement in the gun when from the trigger when I shoot my Glock over a 1911 but how can there not be? My 1911 is a hair trigger that isnt activating anything other then the hammer. The movement gets worse the more tired I get from shooting.

The odd thing is, I feel my G17 shoots #2 where my G32 shoots #3. Which and for reasons previously explained makes me much more accurate with the G17 (I can see the target).

Aiming high and I have consistency. Which to me doesnt make much sense. Unless I'm consistently a terrible shot with it...heheh

For comparison when I goto the range I'll shoot a target at 25 yards and keep it. My best group results at 25 yards (keep in mind I'm not a good shot nor do I brag to be.)

Kimber 1911 = 3.5" group with 0 flier
G32 with .40sw barrel = 7" with 2 fliers
G32 with .357sig barrel = 7" with 1 flier

Thats shooting the Kimber with that #2 sight picture and the Glock with the #3. Rounds are still low on the targets with the Glock. And those are my best! lol

Another problem is I still shoot #2 with my Glock I just place it above the target. For example on a 25yard slow fire target I'll shoot the very top of the orange/red part of the target (top of the 7 ring). This makes me feel like the gun doesnt shoot right since I'm purposely aiming off target...

rangerhgm
12-24-2010, 13:10
with my old eyes i don't even see the sights.....:cool:

Gallium
12-24-2010, 18:55
This makes sense to me.

I used sight picture #3 at 15' and my shots where high. I began to compensate and each shot got better.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_HyKXZv5NViY/TQ7jNzeUGqI/AAAAAAAA66c/DxlIRcyMVKQ/s512/2010-12-18%2010.24.18.jpg

I used sight picture #3 again at 50' and all my shots were high again. It would seem that #2 is the correct sight picture to use for Glock factory night sights.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_HyKXZv5NViY/TQ7huJJRx_I/AAAAAAAA66Q/jYayr_1xvv8/s640/2010-12-18%2010.40.43.jpg

If you shoot Sig Pistols, sight picture #3 would be correct. The G23 is my first Glock.

Crom,

Let me preface this post by saying I'm not trying to tear you down in any way.

At both 15ft and 50ft there are too many things (not exactly "right") going on with your shooting for you to even be considering a correct sight picture (the topic of this thread).

Is your shooting at 15ft ok? Yes. It is "good"? Yes. Is it "great"? No.

If I was your trainer, I would tell you all of your focus and attention should be shooting at under 21ft (ie, your shooting skills have not yet developed to be shooting consistently at >45ft). With the 15ft target, I can see what you're talking about, where you had to compensate.

What I would have recommended in that instance, is to simply keep pointing the gun where you pointed it the last time.

In fact, a very important aspect of one of the fundamentals of pistol shooting is follow thru. Follow thru is a continuation of the process of pressing the trigger and maintaining (or attempting to maintain) concentration on the front sight, even after the shot breaks. The completion of follow thru is bringing the gun back exactly to where the gun was aimed at the time when you pressed the trigger.


If I were to ask you: What did you do right, and wrong with your shooting at 50ft, what would your response be?

:cool:

'Drew

dc2integra
12-24-2010, 19:11
I use image 3

Captains1911
12-25-2010, 08:07
B-i-n-g-o. :)





Sonny, of the 100 + responses in this thread with over 20 unique contributants, how many of these 20 peope do you think can shoot a 1" group at 10 yards? :supergrin:

And, do you think the results are going to matter much at 10 yards shooting a 1" dot using #2, or #3?

The point is, we've been fluffering about a point that is relatively meaningless when we take into consideration


the design of the gun
it's intended use
skills set of the majority of operators (users) under a typical bell curve
the standard deviation in POI when looking at "x" number of Glocks.
Which is why some of us have maintained from the onset that #1, 2 or 3 is not.

If I were to take any of my (in my hands) most accurate Glocks (G37, G24, G17L, G35 with KKM 357SIG barrel) and shoot them at 10 yards using #2 or #3, the results would be at the most 1/0th of an inch different. At 15 yards (45 feet), the results would still be 1/10th of an inch different - just a about twice the difference between the top of my sight and the center of the dot on my sight.

At 25 yards (if I had a 25 yard range I would try it), you are now DEEP into the area of where the limits of accuracy of the pistol are greater that quibbling over #2 or #3. Even if you locked the gun into sturdy rest, you could not, and would not get results (at 25 yards) that are conclusive for anything.

Beyond 25 yards the ballistics of handgun rounds in Glock length barrels start behaving in ways not conducive for testing this type of detail (typically bullet drop).

I think I am now done on the subject, except I am genuinely curious - as a student who believes learning is continuous - to hear from Captains1911 as to where he received instruction on that #2 is the correct hold.

I am not trying to ram home a point. I am merely trying to find out where this information emanated from, and who/how/why they arrived at this conclusion (ie, the logic behind this).

'Drew
:cool:

I see your point. When i first got into shooting about 10 years ago, everybody who "knew" more than me preached Image #2. Same thing the instructors taught in the beginner handgun class I took.

That is the extent of my formal training. I do shoot about twice a month, not always pistols, but latley when I shoot my defensive pistols (glocks) I have been practicing more on point and shot double taps at about 5 yards, not shooting for tight groups.

However, when I do take my time, I can achieve 1"-2" groups at abouit 10 yards, with either my G19 or G23, and cheap wally world ammo. This is consistent with all my pistols using Image #2, but I have never really tried the other sight pictures, so it only makes sense in my mind that if I did use one of the others my bullet impacts would not be center bulls eye.

The next time out I will try using sight pictures #1 and #3 and see how much my results vary.

Merry Xmas

Gallium
12-25-2010, 08:22
I see your point. When i first got into shooting about 10 years ago, everybody who "knew" more than me preached Image #2. Same thing the instructors taught in the beginner handgun class I took.

That is the extent of my formal training. I do shoot about twice a month, not always pistols, but latley when I shoot my defensive pistols (glocks) I have been practicing more on point and shot double taps at about 5 yards, not shooting for tight groups.

However, when I do take my time, I can achieve 1"-2" groups at abouit 10 yards, with either my G19 or G23, and cheap wally world ammo. This is consistent with all my pistols using Image #2, but I have never really tried the other sight pictures, so it only makes sense in my mind that if I did use one of the others my bullet impacts would not be center bulls eye.

The next time out I will try using sight pictures #1 and #3 and see how much my results vary.

Merry Xmas

Thank you for taking the time to respond. If you do get a chance, yes please, do go out and shoot using 2 or 3 (I can't speak for #1, but what the heck, give it a ...shot. :))

I can achieve (consistently, day in, day out) 2" groups at 51ft (max distance at my range) and on good days 1"-1.5" groups at that distance with generic practice ammo (and sometimes less, but that's purely luck). The picture of the target I posted (of the post it note) was with stock Glock sights, placing the dot of the front sight on the center of the post it note, with the front sight being level with the rears, and with equal spacing between the gaps in the sights. I would have assumed that since page one the results would speak for themselves, but no one asked the question (of how did I manage to hit the target at 17 yards using a hold that is supposed to be "incorrect".

Enjoy your holidays. I am now elbow deep in dealing with a rodent infestation. :faint::faint: :supergrin:

'Drew

CharlestonG26
12-25-2010, 09:30
At 25yds the trajectory of the bullet rises to the POA. Beyond 25yds, the POI continues to rise above the POA (out to normal pistol distances) and raising the sight to put the dot on the target would just make it worse.

In a six-page thread with 127 posts...I'm quite surprised that no one jumped on bentbiker's statement regarding "trajectory". Come on guys...even though it's Christmas...get your head in the game.:dunno:

stengun
12-25-2010, 09:41
Howdy,

After reading this thread for days now, I'm still surprised at the number of people that have posted in this thread that #X is the one and only correct sight picture to use but they have never had any type of formal training.

Formal training does not mean some 24yo fat kid that works the gun count at Academy Sports that has never been in the military or has worked as a LEO but he did shoot IDPA once.

Paul

Gallium
12-25-2010, 16:21
In a six-page thread with 127 posts...I'm quite surprised that no one jumped on bentbiker's statement regarding "trajectory". Come on guys...even though it's Christmas...get your head in the game.:dunno:

I would hope that most understand that to mean "where the sight-line (sights) and the bullet trajectory intersect. There is that little thing called gravity, that does not generally allow things already subject to gravitational force to start inexplicably rising. (Of course, things lighter than air don't count).

:)
'Drew

bentbiker
12-25-2010, 17:44
Out to 25yds, Glocks shoot low -- at the muzzle it is low by the distance between the top of the front sight and the bore axis. Putting the dot on the target raises the POI, so these offset each other somewhat. At 25yds the trajectory of the bullet rises to the POA. Beyond 25yds, the POI continues to rise above the POA (out to normal pistol distances) and raising the sight to put the dot on the target would just make it worse.

In a six-page thread with 127 posts...I'm quite surprised that no one jumped on bentbiker's statement regarding "trajectory". Come on guys...even though it's Christmas...get your head in the game.:dunno:
Anytime your sights or aiming device is mounted above the bore-axis, it is necessary for the bore-axis/bullet-trajectory to rise relative to the aim line, or the two will never meet. A laser can be sighted in with a constant offset (parallel lines), but Glock sights certainly aren't done that way. The effect of gravity is insignificant in the sighting-in of combat pistols. The trajectory continues to rise relative to the line of sight until well past any practical sighting-in distances.

With a rail-mounted laser, the lines are reversed and the POA is below the bore-axis out to the sweet spot at which the two come together.

It is really important to grasp these concepts to be successful at weapons sighting. Moving the sweet spot in from 25yds can have serious ramifications re shots out past 25 yds. For example, if you sight-in for a distance of 5 yds, and then shoot at 50 yds, your POI will be high by about 5". Sitting down with a pencil and paper might help you picture how this works.

pm666
12-25-2010, 20:32
I didn't know bullets rise and then drop like on an arc. I thought they went straight out and then gradually dropped. Any idea how far out a .45 acp bullet goes before it starts its drop?

bentbiker
12-25-2010, 20:45
Here's a trajectory table that might give you a feel: http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_trajectory_table.htm .

Butch
12-25-2010, 21:09
I didn't know bullets rise and then drop like on an arc. I thought they went straight out and then gradually dropped. Any idea how far out a .45 acp bullet goes before it starts its drop?
Take a look at the second graph on this page, it's for a 185 gr .45 GAP, but should be about the same as a .45 ACP with the same bullet.
http://www.buytelescopes.com/Products/14979-Federal-Ammunition-american-eagle-45-gap-tmj-185-gr-box-of-50.aspx

Here's an illustration of how it works.....
http://www.frfrogspad.com/traj2.gif

0tact
12-29-2010, 22:34
None of those three looked right to me until I tilted the laptop 90-135 degrees and moved it a foot above my head. :wavey:

Whatever works though.

pizza_pablo
12-31-2010, 16:06
Can anyone tell me what is the BEST Glock is????
What should i use to clean my Glock
Is gen 4 better than gen3......................LOL :)
Model 27
Tetra Gun products
Gen 3 Olive Drab
:wavey:

pizza_pablo
12-31-2010, 17:28
Exactly.
I rarely even shoot a new Glock with the sights the factory provides. I often have a new sight set ordered before I take the new gun to the range :whistling:
Same here. I had Glock Night Sights installed on each Glock, prior to taking possession of them.
So, Am I to assume that picture #2 is for GNS?
That is what we use and we are fairly accurate at 15 yards.
We are still working to improve. I plan on ordering TR Graham's Match Grade Slide Lock for each.

sgt rock
01-01-2011, 10:32
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_50/ai_113853238/

Butch
01-01-2011, 11:40
So, Am I to assume that picture #2 is for GNS?
It is certainly the one to start with, but it depends on where the bullets land when you shoot. If they're not where you want them, you have to do one of three things:

1. Improve your shooting skill (most likely a trigger control improvement).

2. Make a sight change (sight the gun in).

or,

3. Aim at a different spot ('Kentucky windage').


Inside 15 yards, and depending on the size of your target, it makes little difference with a Glock. If you're shooting at a 1 inch circle, a change may be needed, if you're happy hitting a human sized target somewhere towards the middle, you shouldn't have any problem.

pizza_pablo
01-03-2011, 15:10
Thanks, Butch!
I'll say it again, MAN, I love this site! :supergrin:

ADK_40GLKr
01-03-2011, 18:20
I'm just a newbie with very little handgun experience, but I'm a former geometry teacher.

I think we can all see that #1 and #2 are using the same sight references (the tops of the front and rear sights) so the line of sight raises from #1 to #2. For the shot in #1 and the shot in #2 to hit in the same place, one of the sights is going to have to be adjusted, right?

I'm told people use "Pumpkin on a post" (#1) for competetion, so they get their pistols sighted in to work that way (at a limited range, I might add.) Also the size of the "pumpkin" will have a lot to do with where the bullet hits it, correct?

#2 & #3 are using different reference points, and the respective lines of sight are parallel 1/16" apart. Can you adjust your sight for that difference in elevation even at 7 feet? You just compensate based on your experience and practice, right again?

My point? A choice between 2 & 3 should be a matter of personal preference, while choosing #1 would be more practical if you always use a specific target at a specific range.

Now, before any of you decide to flame me if you disagree, think about the ballistics and geometry. I'm not saying one sight picture is right and the other wrong, but this is how it works. If a ballistics "expert" out there understands this different than I seemed to describe it, let me know.

But it would seem to me that you'd have to adjust your sights for either #1 or (#2 & 3) and you couldn't have it both ways.....

(If I've erred in this, it's more likely to be my explanation than my understanding, but hey, there may be some stinkin' thinkin' involved as well!)

ADK_40GLKr
01-03-2011, 18:50
Just noticed Butch's and Bentbiker's posts above. I was trying to say the same thing, almost.

But in response to the arc rising, that's only because the line of sight is angled down to intersect with the bullet's path at a specific range.

Physics 101: Assume a perfectly horizontal surface. (Not the curvature of the earth.)

Fire a projectile parallel to that surface and drop one from the same spot at the same instant. Regardless of the forward momentum of the first, gravity works on them both the same. They will hit the "ground" at exactly the same time. The only way the bullet will ever rise, is if the bore axis is angled upward. The fired bullet begins dropping (from it's initial line of travel) at the same speed as the one that was dropped. (It's just that it's also travelling forward as well.)

"Bore sighting" adjusts the sights so that the line of sight intersects the bore axis at a specific distance.
"Sighting-in" adjusts the sights so that the line of sight intersects the bullet's anticipated path (trajectory) at a specific distance. (See Butch's diagram.)

(And YES, with 140-some previous posts, I've probably overlooked somebody's analysis that said the same thing - SORRY!)