Any info on DSA and YHM uppers? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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DieselNut
01-15-2011, 08:17
I pretty much know that most AR manufacturers (colt, bushmaster, double star,etc) are kinda on a some what level playing field. Where does DSA and YHM fall? I've seen DSA FAL rifles and they seem like they're pretty good. And they also seem very affordable which has me cautious.

On the other hand YHM looks to have a fine upper I'm drooling over but they're $600 or more. What is their quality like? LMT or Noveske, stag or bushmaster, or Hesse and vulcan(being total junk)?

jrs93accord
01-15-2011, 08:31
I have three ARs right now with DSA ZM4 uppers. For the money, they were an excellent buy. Fitment and finish are excellent and the accuracy is par with any of my other M4 type uppers. I recommend them. I have not had any experience with YHM uppers. They have only been on the market for a couple years now.

mjkeat
01-15-2011, 09:58
I pretty much know that most AR manufacturers (colt, bushmaster, double star,etc) are kinda on a some what level playing field. Where does DSA and YHM fall? I've seen DSA FAL rifles and they seem like they're pretty good. And they also seem very affordable which has me cautious.

On the other hand YHM looks to have a fine upper I'm drooling over but they're $600 or more. What is their quality like? LMT or Noveske, stag or bushmaster, or Hesse and vulcan(being total junk)?

BM and Double Star are not even close to being on the same playing field as Colt, LMT, BCM, Daniel Defence or Noveske. If youre going to spend $600 on an upper look at a BCM.

jrs93accord
01-15-2011, 10:35
For the $600, the YHM uppers usually include a YHM BUIS and quad-rail handguards. Some include a fliop-up front sight gas block.

WayaX
01-15-2011, 11:02
DSA Ar-15 rifles are essentially a rebranded LMT. I do not know much about YHM except that their rails and suppressors are mediocre (not terrible but not great).

DieselNut
01-15-2011, 12:43
The only thing about double star that bugs me is their finish is more shiny than others on their receivers. Other than that I'd take one just as much as I'd take a Colt. I've had one of each. With Colt you're paying for the name.

NeverMore1701
01-15-2011, 12:47
The only thing about double star that bugs me is their finish is more shiny than others on their receivers. Other than that I'd take one just as much as I'd take a Colt. I've had one of each. With Colt you're paying for the name.

:faint:

DieselNut
01-15-2011, 12:54
Haha it's true. I had one that would eat nasty old wolf and group really well with it.

jrs93accord
01-15-2011, 14:19
Question, are you referring to DSA as Doublestar Arms or DS Arms? I think there is some confusion. DSA is usually referred to when speaking about DS Arms.

mjkeat
01-15-2011, 18:29
The only thing about double star that bugs me is their finish is more shiny than others on their receivers. Other than that I'd take one just as much as I'd take a Colt. I've had one of each. With Colt you're paying for the name.

You've been drinking the diesel instead of putting it in your vehicle. I dont think its as much the name as the quality that goes w/ the name. Joe Dirts Firebird is as well built as a Ferrari, right?

WayaX
01-15-2011, 20:21
Question, are you referring to DSA as Doublestar Arms or DS Arms? I think there is some confusion. DSA is usually referred to when speaking about DS Arms.

I was going to try and point that out in my earlier post, but decided not to (typing on an iphone can be a pain). I believe the OP means DS Arms, as he says he is familiar with double star. Though the fact that he compares it favorably to a Colt certainly makes me question exactly how familiar he is with them.

Back on topic though, DSA is not a familiar name to most people in the AR world, so for clarification DSA is DS Arms and Double Star is Double Star.

mjkeat
01-16-2011, 09:22
Thinking like the OPs is why some companies still make crap.

Eurodriver
01-16-2011, 09:31
The only thing about double star that bugs me is their finish is more shiny than others on their receivers. Other than that I'd take one just as much as I'd take a Colt. I've had one of each. With Colt you're paying for the name.

Yeah me too. I have 3 BCMs and it bothers me that the fit and finish on their uppers isn't as nice as it is on my Bushmaster. I'm thinking about selling my BCMs because I bought into the "dependability" hype... Milspec means lowest bigger right? :rofl::rofl:

:whistling:

highprimer
01-16-2011, 17:38
I've been shooting a DS Arms middy upper for the last year and have had zero failures or problems of any kind.

I have only fired it 50-100 yard distances, the accuracy in those ranges with the ammo types I keep on hand is acceptable.

DieselNut
01-16-2011, 21:35
Yeah I can see how the DSC and DSA can be easily confused. I was talking about two different things there.
Double Star has been supplying PDs and other agencies AR15's since the 1990s or maybe the 80's I can't remember which. Other than their glossy receiver finishes, I'd rather buy one over a colt and save the extra $$$. They still shoot just as good.

DSA on the other hand seems like its a good value for a basic carbine. I feel like YHM offers some neat combinations on their uppers.

mjkeat
01-16-2011, 22:04
Yeah I can see how the DSC and DSA can be easily confused. I was talking about two different things there.
Double Star has been supplying PDs and other agencies AR15's since the 1990s or maybe the 80's I can't remember which. Other than their glossy receiver finishes, I'd rather buy one over a colt and save the extra $$$. They still shoot just as good.

DSA on the other hand seems like its a good value for a basic carbine. I feel like YHM offers some neat combinations on their uppers.

Interesting

DieselNut
01-17-2011, 16:00
Interesting

I guess you're a colt only man?

ghostman1960
01-17-2011, 16:04
The only thing about double star that bugs me is their finish is more shiny than others on their receivers. Other than that I'd take one just as much as I'd take a Colt. I've had one of each. With Colt you're paying for the name.

:upeyes:

mjkeat
01-17-2011, 17:58
I guess you're a colt only man?

Ive only shot a couple Colts. An M4 and an M16A4. Neither of which were mine personally. But making the statement that a bottom feeder AR shoots as good as a Colt is ridiculous. Thats info that could lead someone to purchase a POS thinking he has just saved himself some money. Next thing you know hes at the range telling they guy next to him he has something "just as good" as a Colt or any other good AR. Its a disservice to the unknowing.

DieselNut
01-17-2011, 18:13
Sir Double Star isn't by any means a "bottom feeder." Have you shot a Double Star rifle before?

jrs93accord
01-17-2011, 18:14
Ive only shot a couple Colts. An M4 and an M16A4. Neither of which were mine personally. But making the statement that a bottom feeder AR shoots as good as a Colt is ridiculous. Thats info that could lead someone to purchase a POS thinking he has just saved himself some money. Next thing you know hes at the range telling they guy next to him he has something "just as good" as a Colt or any other good AR. Its a disservice to the unknowing.

It is not ridiculous. I have several less expensive AR builds that shoot every bit as good as my Colt LE6920. What makes the difference is how well they hold up under extreme conditions. The majority of AR owners will never run their ARs extremely hard. That said, they should hold up well under normal usage and perform just as good as any Colt, or any other big name. Under hard usage, I will take a LMT or a comparable BCM over a Colt.

jrs93accord
01-17-2011, 18:18
Sir Double Star isn't by any means a "bottom feeder." Have you shot a Double Star rifle before?

:agree:


Doublestar ARs are respectable. Far from being a bottom-feeder.

DieselNut
01-17-2011, 19:44
It is not ridiculous. I have several less expensive AR builds that shoot every bit as good as my Colt LE6920. What makes the difference is how well they hold up under extreme conditions. The majority of AR owners will never run their ARs extremely hard. That said, they should hold up well under normal usage and perform just as good as any Colt, or any other big name. Under hard usage, I will take a LMT or a comparable BCM over a Colt.

My thoughts exactly

mjkeat
01-17-2011, 19:55
It is not ridiculous. I have several less expensive AR builds that shoot every bit as good as my Colt LE6920. What makes the difference is how well they hold up under extreme conditions. The majority of AR owners will never run their ARs extremely hard. That said, they should hold up well under normal usage and perform just as good as any Colt, or any other big name. Under hard usage, I will take a LMT or a comparable BCM over a Colt.

I would also probably purchase a BCM before a Colt.

Do DSC ARs come with properly staked gas key and castle nut? How about a M16 carrier? Colt does. Granted a colt will run you a couple hundred more. But take into consideration the cost of upgrading the DSC to Colt standards.

Does everyone tow the max weight their truck can handle? I bet you most people take tow capacity into consideration when the purchase a truck

Maybe "bottom feeder" was a little strong. But I wont ever own one. And will try to talk a guy out of one every time.

This all started from the claim that DSC was as good as a Colt. It simply is not. You can state that people in general dont run their ARs hard enough to warrant a better made rifle. Thats a lame reason for taking the easy left. Im not going to pay $1.50 for a piece of liquorish when I can buy the $2.00 hot fudge sunday.

DieselNut
01-17-2011, 20:37
When I think of bottom feeder I think of a Hesse, Vulcan, Olympic, etc. DSC uses ER Shaw and Wilson barrels. Their BCG's key is staked. Last I remember they use CMT bolts...
DSC may not be trendy at the moment, but their arms are trusted and have been used by many PDs

mjkeat
01-17-2011, 20:44
double post

mjkeat
01-17-2011, 21:04
When I think of bottom feeder I think of a Hesse, Vulcan, Olympic, etc. DSC uses ER Shaw and Wilson barrels. Their BCG's key is staked. Last I remember they use CMT bolts...
DSC may not be trendy at the moment, but their arms are trusted and have been used by many PDs

And theres a thread in this very forum in which a department is purchasing .40cal ARs for their officers.

Trendy is for cloths and home decore not firearms.

Hell, buy a $900 Bushmaster. You did say they were on the same playing field as Colt.

You asked for advise and were given it. Im deffinately not in the minority on this topic.

Im just trying to help out in a manner I wish someone would have helped me in the begining. For just over $800 you can have a BCM. Thats less money than the lower level ARs w/ lesser track records.

Try http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=65729 if you want some brutal honesty.

trlcavscout
01-17-2011, 22:48
I personally would not base any investment I was about to make off of PD budget minded purchases, a lot of which are decided by number crunchers and not experienced gun guys. Or "mil-spec" which is more about who gets paid then how much gets paid a lot of the time. True in the civilian world "mil-spec" USUALLY means better quality, but not always. Almost everything is high speed, mil-spec, GTG, operator approved anymore. Mil-spec is a standard, some stuff is better quality mil spec then other stuff.

I am one of the "bushmaster is good enough for the range plinker guy" people, but like has been stated your paying top tier money for a mid tier gun. When you can get a top tier rifle for 800-1k why not? I can buy LMT complete rifles locally for $1100, or LMT lower/upper/bcg/etc for $950 locally. BCMs complete lower and complete upper in the $850 range. So why drop 1k on a Bushy or $800 on a DPMS etc?

EDIT: A local shop has YHM stripped uppers and lowers, I would like to get a set and build off of it for a future project, but I wouldnt pay $1200 for YH complete rifle.

DieselNut
01-18-2011, 05:36
And theres a thread in this very forum in which a department is purchasing .40cal ARs for their officers.

Trendy is for cloths and home decore not firearms.

Hell, buy a $900 Bushmaster. You did say they were on the same playing field as Colt.

You asked for advise and were given it. Im deffinately not in the minority on this topic.

Im just trying to help out in a manner I wish someone would have helped me in the begining. For just over $800 you can have a BCM. Thats less money than the lower level ARs w/ lesser track records.

Try http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=65729 if you want some brutal honesty.

I appreciate it. I've read about LMT & BCM and have thought about using one of those also.

K. Foster
01-18-2011, 08:54
DieselNut
If you think Colt and Double Star are on the same playing field, please list the features they have in common that make them so. While I agree that “most” owners will not run their guns hard enough to wear out or break parts, the price difference is minimal, so why not get a better gun? With a case of FMJ costing approximately $300, an avid shooter is quickly going to spend more on ammo than his rifle cost. So why not get something with a better reputation?

DieselNut
01-18-2011, 10:03
Read:
http://www.star15.com/about.htmll

DieselNut
01-18-2011, 10:06
Would anyone know of any place near by Cincinnati Ohio that would stock YHM or DSA products? I'd like to look at some up close.

mjkeat
01-18-2011, 13:34
Read:
http://www.star15.com/about.htmll

Be careful of what you read on a manufacturers website. I can make an AR using the same parts as BCM or whoever and end up w/ a POS. Parts aren't always everything. Customer Service, Assembly, and Quality Control differ from place to place no matter how "identical" the parts being used. There statement about chrome lining is very suspect.

If I'm selling 4,000 ( or whatever ) rifles a month I can afford to take those extra steps and afford the equipment to ensure my rifles are 100% each time. If I'm selling 50 a month I probably cant afford to keep the staff or equipment on hand. So therefore I hire Billy Ray and provide him w/ basic tools. I also tell him not to stake the end plate and skip this or that. At $900 a pop theres no way DSC can keep up w/ a $800 BCM. W/ "the big boys" as they call them, your fairly much guaranteed 100% every time.

K. Foster
01-18-2011, 15:20
Read:
http://www.star15.com/about.htmll

I ask you for features and you direct me to an advertizement?
Nothing in that advertizement mentioned any specific details about M4 feed ramps, barrel steel, magnetic particle inspection, high pressure testing, bolt steel, etc. It also did not mention that chrome lining aids in extraction and prolongs barrel life.
If you want to believe they are as good as Colt because their ad says so..... Enjoy your gun.

WayaX
01-18-2011, 15:56
Would anyone know of any place near by Cincinnati Ohio that would stock YHM or DSA products? I'd like to look at some up close.

With the knowledge you have displayed about AR's (using a company's add to prove they are the quality of an upper tier rifle) I don't know if looking at one would tell you anything. You are better off blindly ordering a BCM. No offense.

DieselNut
01-18-2011, 18:26
I don't think they're upper tier just not trash or junk guns either. I think they are pretty mid range basic guns that get the job done. Nothing fancy nor nothing crap either. They're not a Noveske, WC, LMT, or BCM (you guys seem to think highly of that one)

jrs93accord
01-18-2011, 19:25
I don't think they're upper tier just not trash or junk guns either. I think they are pretty mid range basic guns that get the job done. Nothing fancy nor nothing crap either. They're not a Noveske, WC, LMT, or BCM (you guys seem to think highly of that one)

DieselNut,

I am with you on this issue. There are a lot of Kool-Aid drinkers out there that have a limited vocabulary and experience. I own, and have owned, a large variety of ARs over the years. I was first introduced to the M16A1 in 1978 (courtesy of the USMC). I got heavy into the AR back in 2005 and have built several since then. I have on-hand experience with multiple AR manufacturers and their products. I know what works for a given situation. Several of the guys here on GT know me and my ARs. I do not buy or build inferior ARs. I am very careful about what I buy. In this case about DSA and YHM, neither are inferior products, regardless of what some are saying. There are different strokes for different folks. You can put your money in a more expensive higher quality AR (LMT, BCM, Noveske, Colt, etc.) or you can put less of your money in a good quality and dependable AR that will take care of business. What is important to you is what really matters. I do not know that you are going to find a DSA stocking dealer anywhere. When it comes to complete uppers, you can order straight from DSA or YHM (currently out of stock on most uppers). Complete weapon orders will need to be done through a dealer. Good luck on your decision.

mjkeat
01-18-2011, 19:40
DieselNut,

I am with you on this issue. There are a lot of Kool-Aid drinkers out there that have a limited vocabulary and experience. I own, and have owned, a large variety of ARs over the years. I was first introduced to the M16A1 in 1978 (courtesy of the USMC). I got heavy into the AR back in 2005 and have built several since then. I have on-hand experience with multiple AR manufacturers and their products. I know what works for a given situation. Several of the guys here on GT know me and my ARs. I do not buy or build inferior ARs. I am very careful about what I buy. In this case about DSA and YHM, neither are inferior products, regardless of what some are saying. There are different strokes for different folks. You can put your money in a more expensive higher quality AR (LMT, BCM, Noveske, Colt, etc.) or you can put less of your money in a good quality and dependable AR that will take care of business. What is important to you is what really matters. I do not know that you are going to find a DSA stocking dealer anywhere. When it comes to complete uppers, you can order straight from DSA or YHM (currently out of stock on most uppers). Complete weapon orders will need to be done through a dealer. Good luck on your decision.

BCM is not more expensive than the DSC. In fact it is less expensive in some cases. Plus you get better options as standard features on a BCM. Im having a hard time understanding why you would recommend this guy spend the same or more on a lesser product.

jrs93accord
01-18-2011, 20:00
BCM is not more expensive than the DSC. In fact it is less expensive in some cases. Plus you get better options as standard features on a BCM. Im having a hard time understanding why you would recommend this guy spend the same or more on a lesser product.

You need to read the text. I never mentioned DSC. Additionally, you need to check your pricing these days. I can buy a non-CL 16" ZM4 upper (includes M4 handguards) for $275 plus another $125 for a CH and BCG. A BCM upper is $385 plus $135 for the CH and BCG. That still does not include the M4 handguards (about $20). That is a $140 difference right there. Is it worth spending another $140 for the BCM? Maybe. That depends on the buyer. The way I look at it is, that $140 saved can buy a Primary Arms M3 w/ mount and a MAGPUL MBUS.

K. Foster
01-18-2011, 20:21
Jrs93'
I would be interested to know many rounds you put through your mid tier AR’s in a year. I’m not looking for an argument, just trying to get a feel for how much you shoot ‘em.
I shot a little over 5,000 last year.

mjkeat
01-18-2011, 21:00
You need to read the text. I never mentioned DSC. Additionally, you need to check your pricing these days. I can buy a non-CL 16" ZM4 upper (includes M4 handguards) for $275 plus another $125 for a CH and BCG. A BCM upper is $385 plus $135 for the CH and BCG. That still does not include the M4 handguards (about $20). That is a $140 difference right there. Is it worth spending another $140 for the BCM? Maybe. That depends on the buyer. The way I look at it is, that $140 saved can buy a Primary Arms M3 w/ mount and a MAGPUL MBUS.

Ill pass on the 1:9 non chrome lined, non HPT/MP tested thing. If you cant keep the BigMac out of your mouth for a month or less in order to come up w/ the little bit required to to purchase the better rifle then maybe a priority check is needed. I guess Ill never understand.

DieselNut
01-18-2011, 21:24
DieselNut,

I am with you on this issue. There are a lot of Kool-Aid drinkers out there that have a limited vocabulary and experience. I own, and have owned, a large variety of ARs over the years. I was first introduced to the M16A1 in 1978 (courtesy of the USMC). I got heavy into the AR back in 2005 and have built several since then. I have on-hand experience with multiple AR manufacturers and their products. I know what works for a given situation. Several of the guys here on GT know me and my ARs. I do not buy or build inferior ARs. I am very careful about what I buy. In this case about DSA and YHM, neither are inferior products, regardless of what some are saying. There are different strokes for different folks. You can put your money in a more expensive higher quality AR (LMT, BCM, Noveske, Colt, etc.) or you can put less of your money in a good quality and dependable AR that will take care of business. What is important to you is what really matters. I do not know that you are going to find a DSA stocking dealer anywhere. When it comes to complete uppers, you can order straight from DSA or YHM (currently out of stock on most uppers). Complete weapon orders will need to be done through a dealer. Good luck on your decision.

Thats exactly how I see it. Hell if my DSA, YHM, or even DSC (for that matter) dies, I always have that trusty 'ol AK in the safe :)

mjkeat
01-19-2011, 09:18
I give up. I guess there will always be people who can see the importance and overall savings when purchasing a quality AR like the BCM. Just like there will also be those who think a $100 savings is worth giving up the tests and parts inherently attributed to reliability.

Ill skip those 20 big macs in order to afford true reliability.

DieselNut
01-19-2011, 09:36
I give up. I guess there will always be people who can see the importance and overall savings when purchasing a quality AR like the BCM. Just like there will also be those who think a $100 savings is worth giving up the tests and parts inherently attributed to reliability.

Ill skip those 20 big macs in order to afford true reliability.

Those bigmacs come with fries? MJ although we may disagree on the quality thing I appreciate your input. :)

mjkeat
01-19-2011, 09:57
Those bigmacs come with fries? MJ although we may disagree on the quality thing I appreciate your input. :)

LOL yes they usually do.

jrs93accord
01-19-2011, 13:41
DieselNut,

Just in case, these are my credentials.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea2010/002-23.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea2010/001-28.jpg

Mk12 Mod0 (built on C3 Defense billett lower with ADCO SPR upper)
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea2010/006-8.jpg

KAC SR-25 Mk11 Mod0
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea2010/005-11.jpg

I still have another to add soon. I have the lower assembly built, just waiting to decide on an upper configuration.

K. Foster
01-19-2011, 16:16
Just in case, these are my credentials.


There is no question that is an impressive collection. I think you’re decent fella and it’s not my intention to start an argument. I was just curious how much you shoot.:)

jrs93accord
01-19-2011, 16:49
There is no question that is an impressive collection. I think you’re decent fella and it’s not my intention to start an argument. I was just curious how much you shoot.:)

It is perfectly okay to be curious. :cool:

mjkeat
01-19-2011, 16:54
I wonder how many rifles DPMS has built and still cant get it right most of the time?

jrs93accord
01-19-2011, 17:25
I wonder how many rifles DPMS has built and still cant get it right most of the time?

I think it is time to give it a break. I have had enough and I think the OP has too. If you want to do some more bashing, find a few ripe watermelons and a big sledgehammer.

mjkeat
01-19-2011, 17:43
I think it is time to give it a break. I have had enough and I think the OP has too. If you want to do some more bashing, find a few ripe watermelons and a big sledgehammer.

I believe watermelons are out of season.

I'm not bashing. I just refuse to agree w/ the concept that DSC, DSM, Bushmaster or whoever make rifles comparable to Colt, BCM, DD, etc. To say so is misleading and irresponsible.

This all started when the OP stated that Double Star and Bushmaster are on the same level as Colt. That isn't the kind of info that needs to be out there for newcomers to see and then adopt as fact because someone on a well known forum said it was so. Thats setting people up for failure.

I wasn't attacking you. I made the comment simply to point out just because someone has build multiple ARs doesn't mean they know more than the guy who has built 1 AR. I used DPMS as an example to illustrate that fact.

pat701
01-21-2011, 14:42
Bought DSA upper when they first came out at $275. I am happy with it. Fit and finish are OK.

Randolph da man
01-21-2011, 16:23
DieselNut,

Just in case, these are my credentials.

I still have another to add soon. I have the lower assembly built, just waiting to decide on an upper configuration.


owning a collection of AR's doesnt give you credibility. :yawn:
if anything, depending on the manufacturer of them, you can LOSE credibility :whistling:

DieselNut
01-21-2011, 17:02
owning a collection of AR's doesnt give you credibility. :yawn:
if anything, depending on the manufacturer of them, you can LOSE credibility :whistling:

With a name like that I'd wonder about credibility j/k :tongueout:

MikeWilliamson
01-27-2011, 07:12
I gotta say, there are two sides to this.

On the one hand, "saving money" on the functional parts of the weapon to get a scope or rails or whatever isn't smart. Who wants the coolest looking club?

On the other hand, "the Army's manual says so" is just mindless bleating.

I'm doing research on different brands and came into this thread.

I have some YHM accessories and they do well. I don't have any of their uppers. I have used a couple of their BCGs. No trouble, and I've been known to shoot 1000 rounds in a session.

mjkeat
01-27-2011, 09:40
I gotta say, there are two sides to this.

On the one hand, "saving money" on the functional parts of the weapon to get a scope or rails or whatever isn't smart. Who wants the coolest looking club?

On the other hand, "the Army's manual says so" is just mindless bleating.

I'm doing research on different brands and came into this thread.

I have some YHM accessories and they do well. I don't have any of their uppers. I have used a couple of their BCGs. No trouble, and I've been known to shoot 1000 rounds in a session.

There is a overabundance of truth in that statement. However, following the TDPs or going above has proven to create a more reliable AR.

MikeWilliamson
01-27-2011, 09:48
There is a overabundance of truth in that statement. However, following the TDPs or going above has proven to create a more reliable AR.

"than using cheaper materials."

It's entirely possible to do better, which is a point of contention I'm having on another forum where a couple of guys are fapping to the manual.

It's not CHEAP to do better, and there's a point of diminishing returns, but the Army specs are not the be all and end all.

I gotta say I'm impressed with Noveske's turned down M249 barrels for carbine use. That's pretty industrious. I'm holding out hope for a stellite lined barrel.:cool:

BlackPaladin
01-27-2011, 15:20
jrs93accord, great collection and if you follow the info he has posted on here, you will clearly gather that he knows his stuff.

You know, these AR tier arguments get old pretty quick. Yes staking has proven to be a good thing to have, as is MPI the bolt ect. Regardless lack of those things is not a dealbreaker for most people either. Hell, the local gunsmith charges $25 to go through a non staked AR and stake everything properly. Yeah you could buy it with staking done, but big deal (I realize that a few more things are done to the "top tier" but staking seeks to be the big one). Eventually most people are going to own several ARs anyway. OP have at it! My DSC shoots as well as my Colt, and I enjoy both equally!

mjkeat
01-27-2011, 16:14
"than using cheaper materials."

It's entirely possible to do better, which is a point of contention I'm having on another forum where a couple of guys are fapping to the manual.

It's not CHEAP to do better, and there's a point of diminishing returns, but the Army specs are not the be all and end all.

I gotta say I'm impressed with Noveske's turned down M249 barrels for carbine use. That's pretty industrious. I'm holding out hope for a stellite lined barrel.:cool:

I can imagine as an old M249 guy that a SAW barrel on a semi auto might possibly last forever. Slight exaggeration, but maybe.



BlackPaladin: With so many companies going beyond the TDPs why would you want anything other than mil spec at a minimum.

Staking is important but proper staking is more so. That and chrome lined barrel/chamber along w/ many things DSC doesn't do for the price of a BCM. Why pay Cadillac prices for an old Ford Ranger?

jrs93accord
01-27-2011, 17:02
Thanks BlackPaladin.


BTW, I remember Paladin (played by Richard Boone) in "Have Gun, Will Travel". I have the black horse's head on my keychain along with a plastic Glock 17 and a HK UMP.

MikeWilliamson
01-27-2011, 17:04
Where can I get a silver horse's head? A friend of mine wants one for his holster.

jrs93accord
01-27-2011, 17:13
Where can I get a silver horse's head? A friend of mine wants one for his holster.

I found this info for you.

David LaFlair at Cochise Leather Company 1-866-813-9655

The price will probably not be cheap.

DieselNut
01-27-2011, 22:20
I can imagine as an old M249 guy that a SAW barrel on a semi auto might possibly last forever. Slight exaggeration, but maybe.



BlackPaladin: With so many companies going beyond the TDPs why would you want anything other than mil spec at a minimum.

Staking is important but proper staking is more so. That and chrome lined barrel/chamber along w/ many things DSC doesn't do for the price of a BCM. Why pay Cadillac prices for an old Ford Ranger?

They do offer Chrome lining I think its $50 extra charge. Here is where I stand on the whole thing.
1. I'm not a a guy who fires over 10k rounds a year. I probably shoot more like 1000 rds per year if I'm lucky enough have that much time. Chrome lining will prolong the life of a barrel, but odds are I or most people on here will never wear one out. If I do wear the barrel out, I'll just buy another barrel. Before then I'l probably have to replace the MPI tested bolt.
2. DSC may not be top tier but they are functional, and J&T Distributing (sister co) will let you order it the way you want it built before it arrives on your door. For example I could get a fluted barrel carbine upper with a flip-up sight gas block, phantom flash hider, any number of bolt options, rear sights, etc.... I like this as opposed to buying an upper that I have to change out the FSB or hand guards, etc..... Thats money wasted on parts I don't need. (their website isn't very updated so if you have a catalog you will see more they offer)
So in my world (and other people I'm sure) the top tier rifles usually come out to more money and its hard to see any advantage. I've out shot a few Colts and others with my DSC carbine. Its been a very reliable and accurate carbine.

mjkeat
01-27-2011, 23:06
They do offer Chrome lining I think its $50 extra charge. Here is where I stand on the whole thing.
1. I'm not a a guy who fires over 10k rounds a year. I probably shoot more like 1000 rds per year if I'm lucky enough have that much time. Chrome lining will prolong the life of a barrel, but odds are I or most people on here will never wear one out. If I do wear the barrel out, I'll just buy another barrel. Before then I'l probably have to replace the MPI tested bolt.
2. DSC may not be top tier but they are functional, and J&T Distributing (sister co) will let you order it the way you want it built before it arrives on your door. For example I could get a fluted barrel carbine upper with a flip-up sight gas block, phantom flash hider, any number of bolt options, rear sights, etc.... I like this as opposed to buying an upper that I have to change out the FSB or hand guards, etc..... Thats money wasted on parts I don't need. (their website isn't very updated so if you have a catalog you will see more they offer)
So in my world (and other people I'm sure) the top tier rifles usually come out to more money and its hard to see any advantage. I've out shot a few Colts and others with my DSC carbine. Its been a very reliable and accurate carbine.

DSC:

Taken straight from DSCs site. Youre paying $909 for an AR w/ flattop upper and carbine gas system. $50 extra for chrome lining, and another $20 for a mil spec tube and stock. Thats $979. No staking and 1:9 twist. Who kows what materials they use.

BCM:

Taken from the BCM website. $1025 for a complete AR w/ flattop upper and carbine gas system. Includes chrome lining of the chamber and bore. It also comes w/ mil spec tube and stock. It is properly staked (key, castle nut) and has undergone all lab testing. And its 1:7 twist.

Heres a more indepth list from their site:


BCMGUNFIGHTER™ Mod 4 Charging Handle
Standard Carbine Length Gas System
M4 Feed Ramp Barrel Extension
M4 Feed Ramp Flat Top Receiver
T-Marked Upper Receivers
USGI 5.56mm NATO Chambers
Independently Certified Mil-Spec 11595E Barrel Steel
Chrome Lined Bore and Chamber
Manganese Phosphate Barrel Finish on entire barrel
Mil-Spec F-Marked Forged Front Sights
Taper Pinned Front Sight Base
USGI Government Profile Barrels
HPT (High Pressure Test, per Milspec) Barrels
MPI (Magnetic Particle Inspected, per Milspec) Barrels
Bolt machined from Mil-Spec Carpenter No. 158® steel
HPT Bolt (High Pressure Tested/ Proof)
MPI Bolt (Magnetic Particle Inspected)
Shot Peened Bolt
Chrome Lined Carrier (AUTO)
Chrome Lined Gas Key
Gas Key Hardened to USGI Specifications
Grade 8 Hardened Fasteners Key
Staked Per Mil-Spec
Tool Steel Extractor
BCM® Extractor Spring
Black Extractor Insert
Receivers Machined from Aluminum Forgings 7075-T6
Receivers Hardcoat Anodize per MIL-A-8625F, Type III, Class 2
BCM® Milspec 7075-T6 Receiver Extension
USGI Mold M4 Stock Staked M4 Lock Nut
USGI H Buffer (1 USGI Tungsten, 2 Steel)
Magpul MOE Enhanced Trigger Guard
Low Shelf for RDIAS installation
Low Shelf for Accuwedge use
Un-notched Hammer compatible with 9mm use
Fire Controls marked SAFE and SEMI
Complete BCM® Rifles and Carbines include: Rifle, 1 Magazine (where allowed), Cable Lock, USGI Manual, and F.E.T.

Now tell me why anyone should purchase a DSC over a BCM. The BCM is far and beyond the best deal. The Gunfighter CH alone makes the BCM cheaper overall.

Once again, why would you spend more on a DSC when you can have a BCM?

Add up all those options that come stndard on a BCM and let me know how much your DSC would cost. I doubt they even offer everything BCM rifles come w/ standard.

And as far as a DSC out shooting a Colt. I imagine is completely feasible. But put 20 guys of equal ability half w/ DSC rifles and the other half w/ BCMs and Id bet the outcome would be quite different. Theres always that "sample of one" that will disprove the norm.

Eurodriver
01-27-2011, 23:47
mjkeat, there are people just set in their ways.

I owned a Bushmaster. Then I discovered BCM. I haven't looked back. I paid $1000 for my Bushmaster during the Obama craze. Dumb.

For some, its just easier because the local gun shop has DSC or DSA whatever in stock, and they like the "fit and finish" of it. (Notice thats what the majority of those owners compliment it on)

You can't look at a DSA and tell if the bolt is made to spec, or if the barrel is proper 4150 CMV. But you can notice little things, like gas key and castle nut staking. That would tell me something if I were a new buyer. But not everyone cares. You can lead a horse to water....

ghostman1960
01-28-2011, 05:05
I vote BCM
http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz159/ghostman1961/DSCF2218.jpg
:)

DieselNut
01-28-2011, 06:10
Okay..... again here I am not saying DSC is top tier(some of you get your panties in a wad even assuming that), here's where you save money with them. Don't order from DSC's site. (you pay about $200 extra) I had the upper built to my liking and ordered it with a kit that I assembled my lower with(From J&T) . In all costs I think my carbine came out to $759. You saved roughly $250 right there. For the average guy thats important. Thats $250 in ammo he or she could be buying....
I think its good for you all to understand why people buy DSC and other MFGs out there. They work. And they'll work for a long time.
At the time I liked buying DSC because I liked giving business to a local company. I was very satisfied with their customer service too. (DSC, J&T Dist, and ACE gun stocks are all sister companies)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEvM6S8ohsI

Having said all that.....I am still considering using either BCM or LMT I just haven't made up my mind what confg I want yet.

MikeWilliamson
01-28-2011, 06:29
That extra ammo gets heavy when your gun jams.

Seriously, there is no "Savings" in this hobby. I get it on other fora because I insist on hard chrome BCGs (Based on five years of active duty running them side by side with park and watching the parked guns crud and jam while the chrome kept running), and I'm researching nickel boron, ion nitriding and melonite finishes. I have people tell me I'm "wasting" $50 that I could better spend on "optics" or "rails."

It doesn't matter how much ammo you have or how cool your Gen V night vision is if the gun goes CLICK instead of BANG.

Trust me, as someone who's been there, the scariest sound in the field is "CLICK." It means either your gun's not working, or someone else's is about to.

I'm all in favor of assembling your own gun from good parts. It does save money, and you learn a lot that is valuable for maintenance/repair. But there is no "Savings" in cheaper barrels, operating mass, trigger kit or structure (receivers, tube).

For example, the civvy receiver extension is milled 6061 aluminum, costs $18 and breaks at 45 lbs of lateral pressure. The milspec is 7075T6 aluminum (Same as a good receiver), hard hammer drawn, with deeper threads, costs $35, but breaks at 75 lbs lateral.

Since the whole point of a collapsible stock is to have an adaptable, smaller gun for combat or simulated combat, are you really "Saving" $17? One hard dive for cover can wreck the tube AND the receiver. Now you're out $100-$200 and a lot of aggravation.

If you're bench shooting, you shouldn't be using a collapsible stock, and this doesn't apply.

Decide what your application is, then buy the best materials for it. If you want to "save money," stick to Chinese pellet rifles. They're reasonably accurate (1" at 15 yards), cheap to shoot and a lot of fun. Why "waste" money on a real gun and ammo if you're never going to be in a firefight?:tongueout:

MikeWilliamson
01-28-2011, 06:30
In context: A Hi Point 9mm is cheaper than a GLOCK, and the money you save can be spent on more ammo. Why "waste" money on an expensive GLOCK?;-)

DieselNut
01-28-2011, 06:46
Mike you make a good point. This would mostly be a range rifle or occasionally I may hunt with it. As someone who isn't in the military, I don't anticipate getting into a firefight anytime soon. My line of work consist of moving freight trains down the rails, then squeezing in some trigger time when I can.
When are they gonna start making these like real guns with steel and wood?:tongueout: :rofl:

MikeWilliamson
01-28-2011, 06:50
Well, for range shooting you want the best barrel and trigger kit possible, and a reliable operating mass. You can probably go with standard chrome moly instead of the milspec steel, and you should avoid chrome, but that's going to be offset by the cost of a really good barrel--Shilen or Lothar.

It could be worse. There are people who want to shoot "cheap" .50 BMG. Yikes.

mjkeat
01-28-2011, 09:00
If you purchase the upper and lower seperatley you can get the same BCM but w/ midlength gas system for roughly $850. It still has all the features of their complete rifles. So $100 savings. But how much are you giving up in added features when stepping down to DSC? A lot more than $100. You have $50 in chrome lining by itself. Add the price of better materials, testing, and proper assembly. Who knows how much youd be missing out on at this point.

Seriously whats $100. 200 rounds of good ammo? Ill sacrafice that 200rds (maybe an hour of range time) for a weapon I KNOW will afford me piece of mind.

DieselNut
01-28-2011, 09:34
How does BCM do in resale? DSC isn't so hot in that dept.

NeverMore1701
01-28-2011, 10:06
How does BCM do in resale? DSC isn't so hot in that dept.

I sold one of my BCM midlength uppers with about 500 rounds through it and a bit of cosmetic wear for a $25 loss.

DieselNut
01-28-2011, 10:10
Thats not bad at all.

mjkeat
01-28-2011, 12:47
Not only that but they are gone in seconds. Ive never seen one sit on the EE for more than a day.