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cowboy1964
01-17-2011, 07:38
Overheard a sales guy at the GS the other day say the Colt 6920 is no longer made for sale to civilians. True or not?

kurt1305
01-17-2011, 07:40
Its marked Law Enforcement Only, but several local shops sell them to anyone otherwise eligible to own a firearm.

TedG
01-17-2011, 07:47
Which Colt model is identical without the "For Police and Military..." warning?

tx787
01-17-2011, 11:24
Colt decided they didn't want to market it to civilians so they left the LE Only stamp on it even after the AWB expired. Some people think it makes the gun cooler, other think it's proof that Colt doesn't care about civilians and therefore wouldn't buy it. Either way it's legal to own in most states.

tx787
01-17-2011, 11:25
Overheard a sales guy at the GS the other day

Most things said or overheard by sales guys as GSs are incorrect.

mvician
01-17-2011, 11:42
Overheard a sales guy at the GS the other day


:rofl:

Don't believe most of the crap you hear at a gun show.

PlayboyPenguin
01-17-2011, 12:22
Overheard a sales guy at the GS the other day say the Colt 6920 is no longer made for sale to civilians. True or not?
He is absolutely correct. They are no longer available at all. In fact Colt produced a legal decree to never produce them again and signed it in blood. They are extremely rare and valuable now.

Lucky for you I happen to have an unfired one in my safe I might be persuaded to part with for a huge amount of money. Remember, this is an extremely rare item that you will never, ever be able to get again. :whistling: :supergrin:

trlcavscout
01-17-2011, 12:51
He is absolutely correct. They are no longer available at all. In fact Colt produced a legal decree to never produce them again and signed it in blood. They are extremely rare and valuable now.

Lucky for you I happen to have an unfired one in my safe I might be persuaded to part with for a huge amount of money. Remember, this is an extremely rare item that you will never, ever be able to get again. :whistling: :supergrin:


Goodluck with that :supergrin: I had to give mine away to get my BCM. Most would rather have a Del-ton then a Colt. Resale on 6920's is not good.

surf
01-17-2011, 13:07
Goodluck with that :supergrin: I had to give mine away to get my BCM. Most would rather have a Del-ton then a Colt. Resale on 6920's is not good.And I will trade you a Del-ton for a 6920 everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. :supergrin:

Captains1911
01-17-2011, 13:08
Goodluck with that :supergrin: I had to give mine away to get my BCM. Most would rather have a Del-ton then a Colt. Resale on 6920's is not good.

:rofl:

PlayboyPenguin
01-17-2011, 13:27
Goodluck with that :supergrin: I had to give mine away to get my BCM. Most would rather have a Del-ton then a Colt. Resale on 6920's is not good.
Shut up you...you're squeltching my deal. :supergrin:

ghostman1960
01-17-2011, 14:38
Colt can kiss my arse. I can build rifle that is just as good for less.

Andrewsky
01-17-2011, 14:48
Colt can kiss my arse. I can build rifle that is just as good for less.

Tell me more.

zhix
01-17-2011, 15:04
I don't care for Colts playing their little games, but if I could only have one carbine it would likely be my 6920. Luckily I can have several.

I am also not hot for a "BCM 14.5" Middy" that all the cool kids are getting, but I will admit that the most of the major parts of my own build are from Bravo Company.

surf
01-17-2011, 16:21
Colt can kiss my arse. I can build rifle that is just as good for less.I can say the same thing about any manufacturer. What does that have to do with Colt kissing your ass?

surf
01-17-2011, 16:22
I don't care for Colts playing their little games, but if I could only have one carbine it would likely be my 6920. Luckily I can have several.

I am also not hot for a "BCM 14.5" Middy" that all the cool kids are getting, but I will admit that the most of the major parts of my own build are from Bravo Company.What games is Colt playing? What issues do you have with the BCM 14.5 Midlength?

zhix
01-17-2011, 22:33
The only ARs that Colt markets to civilians are ban configuration guns and there is no reason to still be stamping their rifles "LE/Gov't use only". They are also expensive compared to what you can get from other manufactures, but I still own one because they are made to the right specs. and I wanted something with a name that would hold value.

I don't want a Bravo Midlength 14.5 because I don't care to have whatever configuration is popular this year. Also if I wanted a 14.5" barrel so badly I would pay the $200 stamp and get an SBR instead of having a pinned flash hider. Instead I got a lowly "mid-tier" Stag 11.5" SBR (which is 1:7 heavy chrome-lined, MP tested,staked FA BCG, mil-spec stock tube w/staked nut, F marked FSB, etc.)

trlcavscout
01-17-2011, 22:48
I am not a "cool kid" but my BCM 14.5 middy will be here tomorrow :supergrin: I have wanted a 14.5 for a while, I have wanted to try BCM for a while, and I prefer middys. So it made since for me.

I also would not give Colt money for a new gun, I had bought a 6920 used, shot it for a while and sold it. It was ok, but it was 16" carbine and I wanted something else. At least I didnt have to spend a bucket of money to get it to run like I did the one and only Colt 1911 I ever had. I bought it, tried to shoot it, 275 bucks later I was able to shoot it, so I sold it with a bad taste in my mouth for Colts.

ghostman1960
01-18-2011, 05:08
Tell me more.

DD Smartgunner upper deal or a BCM upper with the lower of your choice with a quality LPK. Anything else you need to know?

ghostman1960
01-18-2011, 05:20
I can say the same thing about any manufacturer. What does that have to do with Colt kissing your ass?

Because Colt only sells you what they think you need. Their civilian product choice is a joke. I built this for less than what a new 6920 would cost.

http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz159/ghostman1961/DSCF2218.jpg
ETA: I guess I'm one of the cool kids with a 14.5" middy.

surf
01-18-2011, 11:21
Because Colt only sells you what they think you need. Their civilian product choice is a joke. I built this for less than what a new 6920 would cost.

http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz159/ghostman1961/DSCF2218.jpg
ETA: I guess I'm one of the cool kids with a 14.5" middy.You do realize that there are some major conflicts going on and that Colt has an obligation to fulfill military contracts. Their bread and butter is the military world and supplying those who fight for your freedoms that allow you to own above weapons and the way of life that you have and your ability to piss and moan about a company not supplying you with what you want. So I might be inclined to cut Colt a break and thank them for what they are doing. And I might add that with the volume that they provide they sure do have a great track record for reliability. While I am sure Colt likes to see the US civilian world enjoy their weapons, their primary focus is the warfighter and keeping them supplied.

surf
01-18-2011, 11:23
DD Smartgunner upper deal or a BCM upper with the lower of your choice with a quality LPK. Anything else you need to know?In all fairness that is not building anything. That is pretty much pushing two pins together.

zhix
01-18-2011, 11:32
In all fairness that is not building anything. That is pretty much pushing two pins together.

I kind of have to agree with you there, unless you are talking about machining the parts yourself or something, but most people just assemble a lower and slap on an already built upper.
With my own project I bought the upper completely stripped and will be attempting to assemble it and torque the barrel on myself. I have a vise block and the wrenches and am now waiting on a few more small parts.

ghostman1960
01-18-2011, 12:14
You do realize that there are some major conflicts going on and that Colt has an obligation to fulfill military contracts. Their bread and butter is the military world and supplying those who fight for your freedoms that allow you to own above weapons and the way of life that you have and your ability to piss and moan about a company not supplying you with what you want. So I might be inclined to cut Colt a break and thank them for what they are doing. And I might add that with the volume that they provide they sure do have a great track record for reliability. While I am sure Colt likes to see the US civilian world enjoy their weapons, their primary focus is the warfighter and keeping them supplied.

I thank them every two weeks with the taxes taken out of my check.

trlcavscout
01-18-2011, 12:17
I thank them every two weeks with the taxes taken out of my check.

+1

They wouldnt do it for free, they do it for the green. If they didnt do it someone else would. Now if they made LP springs that didnt break in combat I would thank them.

Gunnut 45/454
01-18-2011, 12:33
Cowboy1964
If you want one here you go!

http://surplusammo.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=33&products_id=410

At $1200 thats as good as you'll probably find one new!:supergrin:

surf
01-18-2011, 12:33
Yea I agree. Screw any company making a profit attempting to help keep our troops supplied. And providing them with combat proven and highly reliable weapons to entrust their lives to. :upeyes:

Edit - I just think some people just like to ***** and moan.

glock031
01-18-2011, 12:46
Cowboy1964
If you want one here you go!

http://surplusammo.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=33&products_id=410

At $1200 thats as good as you'll probably find one new!:supergrin:

CDNN $1099.00 since 10/10....Im a noob when it comes to ar's but it sure seems to me that colt has set the standard that some other companies are now just recently following. but i could be wrong :supergrin:

ghostman1960
01-18-2011, 12:51
There is nothing about Colts military contracts/sales that keeps them from giving civilians what they want. They really don't want civilians to own their ARs. All they want to provide to us lowly civilians are overpriced 1911s and cowboy guns. When their military contracts begin to wind down they will come looking to us again. Actually they lost me with their non standard pins and silly sear blocks back in the 90s. With companies like DD, Spikes and BCM who needs their over priced wares?

glock031
01-18-2011, 13:34
IMO - If colt had to depend on the civilian market then they would run thier buisnes differently. Some of the other companies have different configurations going for them now such as BCM-middies, DD rail systems. etc,etc.

Daekwan
01-18-2011, 14:28
I bought a Colt as my first AR and couldnt be happier, it is *THE" standard.. everything else is and always will be a copy. 5-10 years from now I dont have to worry about what my Colt is worth, how reliable it will be or how it still shoots.

My 2nd AR (ordered from SG a month ago) is a DD 14.5 LW middy with a 12" rail. The same gun all the cool kids are getting now. I cant wait to see what the hype is about. I want the soft shooting, lightweight and shorter overall length. It will be great for attending classes and getting the most out of the AR platform.

But I already know what my 3rd AR will be. And I'm coming back to Colt (6933) regardless of how happy that DD rifle makes me. I cant simply think of a better way to own/experience my first SBR.. than by sticking with whats tried and true. If that works out well.. I'll be more than happy to experiment with other uppers and barrel lengths. And maybe pickup more SBR's in the future.

surf
01-18-2011, 17:10
IMO - If colt had to depend on the civilian market then they would run thier buisnes differently. Some of the other companies have different configurations going for them now such as BCM-middies, DD rail systems. etc,etc.This just seems to be too much common sense for a few others to understand.

There is nothing about Colts military contracts/sales that keeps them from giving civilians what they want. They really don't want civilians to own their ARs. All they want to provide to us lowly civilians are overpriced 1911s and cowboy guns. When their military contracts begin to wind down they will come looking to us again. Actually they lost me with their non standard pins and silly sear blocks back in the 90s. With companies like DD, Spikes and BCM who needs their over priced wares?Do you actually believe this crap that you type?

Colt is focused on producing weapons to meet Military and LE needs. This is what the company is geared at right now and that is what the companies history is based around. The civilian market is not the top priority and Colt readily admits that fact. Hmm let me think. Should I produce 2K middies or should I produce 100K M4's? Does that mean they are evil for not addressing the civilian world? Hell no, keep our warfighters armed first! I don't hear anyone complaining about FN and their civilian Black Rifle offerings, but they sure as hell do fulfill a lot of military contracts.

I don't understand why someone would get pissy that a company is addressing their market share and doing it well. Which is why there are other great manufacturers who are addressing the civilian market and succeeding in that niche. If anyone thinks that any of these civilian based manufacturers wouldn't do the exact same thing if they won military contracts are kidding themselves.

I don't have some great hard on for Colt as I own more AR/M4's from the "civilian based" manufacturers, but I am not stupid enough to see things for what they are and I don't get bent out of shape over it.

Glockdude1
01-18-2011, 17:29
The 6920 is quite legal to own.

:cool:

zhix
01-18-2011, 18:19
I bought a Colt as my first AR and couldnt be happier, it is *THE" standard.. everything else is and always will be a copy. 5-10 years from now I dont have to worry about what my Colt is worth, how reliable it will be or how it still shoots.

My 2nd AR (ordered from SG a month ago) is a DD 14.5 LW middy with a 12" rail. The same gun all the cool kids are getting now. I cant wait to see what the hype is about. I want the soft shooting, lightweight and shorter overall length. It will be great for attending classes and getting the most out of the AR platform.

But I already know what my 3rd AR will be. And I'm coming back to Colt (6933) regardless of how happy that DD rifle makes me. I cant simply think of a better way to own/experience my first SBR.. than by sticking with whats tried and true. If that works out well.. I'll be more than happy to experiment with other uppers and barrel lengths. And maybe pickup more SBR's in the future.

I was wanting a 6933 for awhile. I couldn't find them at too many places and where they were available they were $1500.
Since I already have a few Colts and I was able to get it cheaper ($1000) and easier, I went with a Stag LE SBR. Stags SBR models have the the same specs. (MP tested, 1/7, etc. etc.) as Colts, unlike their regular models.
You may also want to look at Spiwak machine guns or JB arms for "excellent/like new" department trade-in 6933s for about $1200.

glock031
01-19-2011, 00:23
Overheard a sales guy at the GS the other day say the Colt 6920 is no longer made for sale to civilians. True or not?

Who knows now with the new colt sp6920 and sp6940 sporter models coming out????????

ghostman1960
01-19-2011, 06:05
Yeah you guys stick with Colt after the non spec pin sizes and sear block idiocy. Maybe most of you were too young to remember that. But Colt lost me after pulling that crap. They could give two poops about civilian gun owners.

Gribble
01-21-2011, 06:37
This just seems to be too much common sense for a few others to understand.

Do you actually believe this crap that you type?

Colt is focused on producing weapons to meet Military and LE needs. This is what the company is geared at right now and that is what the companies history is based around. The civilian market is not the top priority and Colt readily admits that fact. Hmm let me think. Should I produce 2K middies or should I produce 100K M4's? Does that mean they are evil for not addressing the civilian world? Hell no, keep our warfighters armed first! I don't hear anyone complaining about FN and their civilian Black Rifle offerings, but they sure as hell do fulfill a lot of military contracts.

I don't understand why someone would get pissy that a company is addressing their market share and doing it well. Which is why there are other great manufacturers who are addressing the civilian market and succeeding in that niche. If anyone thinks that any of these civilian based manufacturers wouldn't do the exact same thing if they won military contracts are kidding themselves.

I don't have some great hard on for Colt as I own more AR/M4's from the "civilian based" manufacturers, but I am not stupid enough to see things for what they are and I don't get bent out of shape over it.

You do know FN can't produce Ar's per contractual agreement with Colt?

surf
01-21-2011, 11:06
You do know FN can't produce Ar's per contractual agreement with Colt?Yes I realize that, however most people do not. This really isn't the point, but I have yet to hear anyone complain about FN not addressing the civilian market despite what they can or cannot do. Heck most people don't even know that FN fulfills these contracts. So should we be upset that FN is only meeting military needs? Should they be evil for getting into a contract that completely ignores the civilian market? This is my point, but it seems about as silly to me as someone *****ing that Colt isn't taking care of the civilian market either. IMO Colt could only fulfill military and LE needs and I wouldn't think any less of them. That just seems assinine to me.

Spiffums
01-21-2011, 19:21
Me no drinka da Kool Aid.................mesa shoot BCM okie day?

WoodenPlank
01-21-2011, 20:50
I don't get the *****ing and moaning, either. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, then don't. Easy.

Braden
01-22-2011, 11:41
I don't care what you guys say or think. I LOVE my 6920 and wouldn't trade it for anything short of a LaRue OBR (but I'd rather just buy the LaRue and have both).

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bbSEsyVHyvQ/TS25VV25u0I/AAAAAAAAFtQ/MWGL-g3M3TA/s912/Colt%205.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bbSEsyVHyvQ/TS25nbN584I/AAAAAAAAFtY/BQORMtxsM6w/s912/Colt%207.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bbSEsyVHyvQ/TS25_7TSRQI/AAAAAAAAFt0/Gy2_R8SnSi4/s912/Colt%2014.jpg

And yes, they are definitely available to civilians.

RVER
01-22-2011, 14:30
Which Colt model is identical without the "For Police and Military..." warning?

Unfortunately none. The 6920 is truely Mil. Spec. and is produced on the Colt Defense Products production line (military / law enforcement sales). It is a fantastic carbine. Mine shoots 1/2" at 100 yards with Federal "Tactical" 5.56FMJ. However at $1,200.00 your paying for a level of quality that you will never NEED but may WANT. I had a few extra dollars and wanted a true Mil. Spec. carbine so that's what I bought and have never looked back.

The DPM "Sportical" will do just about the same darn thing at a fraction of the cost... and acuracy. 1/2" vs 1.5" at 100 yards (Max) - big deal unless your hunting chipmonks...

surf
01-22-2011, 15:04
Mine shoots 1/2" at 100 yards with Federal "Tactical" 5.56FMJ. At .5MOA I think you got the best one that has ever left their production line.

RVER
01-22-2011, 16:13
At .5MOA I think you got the best one that has ever left their production line.

I'm certainly not complaining, but quite honestly I never gave it all that much thought as I thought that was pretty much standard... My gun has a 2 -10X Weaver scope and I mostly shoot American Eagle Tactical XM193 55 grain 5.56 FMJ by Federal - basicaly bulk ammo, although I have some .223 Rem Ultramax brand reloaded ammunition (Dicks Sporting Goods special) which shoots slightly larger groups. My gun is also pretty accurate out to 50 yards with my .22LR conversion kit and bulk ammo... Do I NEED that level of accuracy? Nah, I just use mine to shoot at paper.

What a waste though... "the best one to ever leave their production line" being in the hands of a common paper punching soda can plinkerer like me. That mostly shoots 22LR out of it to boot. :faint:

Still think the "Sportical" would have been enough for my simple uses...

Alaskapopo
01-22-2011, 19:30
At .5MOA I think you got the best one that has ever left their production line.

Your nose for BS is good. .5 moa with any chrome lined non free floated carbine is mythical. Now 1 moa with match ammo sure maybe.
Pat

RVER
01-22-2011, 20:57
Gee, minimal maintenace, bore snake for most range cleanings and a wipe down with break free, absolutely no bore prep, and "Mythical" carbine performance all for $1,200.00... And here I thought I just had a good shooter. Maybe I should stop shooting .22Lr out of it just in case it ruins the bore? Maybe I should spend $20.00 a box on match ammunition to see what it can "really" do? Nah, I'm just going to enjoy it and take your word for it that it is an exceptional gun. But in all seriousness I do appreciate the comments because I really thought that it was a "standard" Colt shooter. I will take better care of the bore after range sessions. The trigger isn't the best but I guess better than I thought. :cool:

Alaskapopo
01-22-2011, 22:27
Gee, minimal maintenace, bore snake for most range cleanings and a wipe down with break free, absolutely no bore prep, and "Mythical" carbine performance all for $1,200.00... And here I thought I just had a good shooter. Maybe I should stop shooting .22Lr out of it just in case it ruins the bore? Maybe I should spend $20.00 a box on match ammunition to see what it can "really" do? Nah, I'm just going to enjoy it and take your word for it that it is an exceptional gun. But in all seriousness I do appreciate the comments because I really thought that it was a "standard" Colt shooter. I will take better care of the bore after range sessions. The trigger isn't the best but I guess better than I thought. :cool:

Here is the deal a lot of us here have a fair amount of range time shooting guns like these and know that your not going to get a .5 moa out of a chrome lined carbine. I own a Colt like yours and it is a 1.5 moa gun. Now on the internet there are a lot of guys who will shoot 3 shot groups until they find one they like and then will claim that is what their rifle is capable of all the time when it was really just a fluke. You need to shoot 5 or 10 shot groups and take an average of 5 of those groups.
Pat

Captains1911
01-22-2011, 22:31
Gee, minimal maintenace, bore snake for most range cleanings and a wipe down with break free, absolutely no bore prep, and "Mythical" carbine performance all for $1,200.00... And here I thought I just had a good shooter. Maybe I should stop shooting .22Lr out of it just in case it ruins the bore? Maybe I should spend $20.00 a box on match ammunition to see what it can "really" do? Nah, I'm just going to enjoy it and take your word for it that it is an exceptional gun. But in all seriousness I do appreciate the comments because I really thought that it was a "standard" Colt shooter. I will take better care of the bore after range sessions. The trigger isn't the best but I guess better than I thought. :cool:

No matter what you say, a 16" chrome-lined barrel will never achieve .5MOA accuracy, it's that simple.

RVER
01-22-2011, 23:54
http://<div style="width:480px;text-align:right;">******* width="480" height="360" src="http://static.pbsrc.com/flash/rss_slideshow.swf" flashvars="rssFeed=http%3A%2F%2Ffeed787.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fyy154%2F1RVER%2FCOLT%2Ffeed.rss" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" /><a href="http://photobucket.com/redirect/album?showShareLB=1" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_geturs.gif" style="border:none;" /></a><a href="http://s787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/1RVER/COLT/" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_viewall.gif" style="border:none;" /></a></div>

Alaskapopo
01-23-2011, 00:17
http://<div style="width:480px;text-align:right;">******* width="480" height="360" src="http://static.pbsrc.com/flash/rss_slideshow.swf" flashvars="rssFeed=http%3A%2F%2Ffeed787.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fyy154%2F1RVER%2FCOLT%2Ffeed.rss" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" /><a href="http://photobucket.com/redirect/album?showShareLB=1" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_geturs.gif" style="border:none;" /></a><a href="http://s787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/1RVER/COLT/" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_viewall.gif" style="border:none;" /></a></div>
link is not working.
Pat

RVER
01-23-2011, 00:45
Pat, I have 2 target photos on photobucket that I wanted to post for you. I haven't fired the 5 plus 3 shot groups, but did fire 3 shots of the American Eagle from 100 yards into 0.5" and 3 shots of Ultramax into 1.5". At 200 yards the Americal Eagle grouped 3 shots into 1.5". I'm just happy having a handy carbine that will keep it's shots within 8" from 0-300 yards. It was a retirement present from the family and your information makes it even more special. Stay safe,

Alaskapopo
01-23-2011, 01:37
Pat, I have 2 target photos on photobucket that I wanted to post for you. I haven't fired the 5 plus 3 shot groups, but did fire 3 shots of the American Eagle from 100 yards into 0.5" and 3 shots of Ultramax into 1.5". At 200 yards the Americal Eagle grouped 3 shots into 1.5". I'm just happy having a handy carbine that will keep it's shots within 8" from 0-300 yards. It was a retirement present from the family and your information makes it even more special. Stay safe,
I figured it was like that. No insult was meant but you really need to shoot 5 shot groups to see what the gun will do and you need to do more than 1 group. Here are some examples.

I fired this group of 62 grain FMJ reloads I made. Its pretty good. If this was all I shot I could brag that this rifle was sub moa with ball ammo.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Larue%20Stealth%20targets/BallinLaruegood.jpg


But this is the next target with the same ammo.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Larue%20Stealth%20targets/Ballbadlarue.jpg

Its easy to pick and chose groups and sometimes you just get a fluke.

This is what the rifle will do consistently with my match reloads.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Larue%20Stealth%20targets/Larue5shotgroupsbestever.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/AR%20style%20rifles/Larueprecisionbuild.jpg

Alaskapopo
01-23-2011, 01:39
My Colt and some of its groups.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/AR%20style%20rifles/ColtLEOrifle.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Colt%20AR%20targets/Coltgroups.jpg

Alaskapopo
01-23-2011, 01:46
My NOveske N4 carbine.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/AR%20style%20rifles/NoveskeN4LightCarbine.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Noveske%20N4%20targets/Noveske6-22-10.jpg

mvician
01-23-2011, 02:20
here are his pics..........




http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/1RVER/COLT/IMG_1236.jpg


http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/1RVER/COLT/IMG_1235.jpg

surf
01-23-2011, 11:37
Pat, I have 2 target photos on photobucket that I wanted to post for you. I haven't fired the 5 plus 3 shot groups, but did fire 3 shots of the American Eagle from 100 yards into 0.5" and 3 shots of Ultramax into 1.5". At 200 yards the Americal Eagle grouped 3 shots into 1.5". I'm just happy having a handy carbine that will keep it's shots within 8" from 0-300 yards. It was a retirement present from the family and your information makes it even more special. Stay safe,No offense but you clearly don't know how to define or measure a group for zero. A Colt 6920, chrome lined, semi-auto AR/M4 will not shoot .5MOA groups. If you take out anomalies or luck by shooting several larger groups and coming up with a mean average, that is the rifles capability. Pretty much exactly what Alaskapopo mentions. Any person or any rifle on a given 3 shot group might get lucky, but that is clearly not an indication of what the rifle does consistently. By adding more rounds to the group and doing several groups, you rule out these lucky shots ets.

As for your pictures, I don't see a .5MOA group. You have a fine rifle without a doubt. You should be very proud of that rifle, but be realistic with yourself and us. As mentioned there are many very knowledgeable people here who know BS when they read it.

RVER
01-23-2011, 11:43
Mivician, thanks for your help posting the pics! Pat, thanks again for the information and the pics. I mostly shoot handgun, so for me the carbine is just a good "out of the box" carbine that can hit an 8" target from 0-300 yards without hold over, expensive ammuniton, or the need for any other accessories other than my scope and mount. With the .22 conversion kit the family can plink for a while for about $20.00.

The groups and targets are nothing fancy, shot off the bench and with bulk ammunition to boot. I was just curious what the gun would do at distance. The "cross hairs" reference is because I used the cross hairs as the point of aim vs using the bottom plex post as I needed to do when shooting .22LR due to the elevation difference. Both .22LR and 5.56 shoot to center as far as windage is concerned. With iron sights, the rear sight is adjusted all the way down for 5.56 and 20 clicks up for .22LR. No windage adjustment is needed. .223 Remington (bulk re-manfactured) shot O.K. at 1.5".
:wavey:

ghostman1960
01-23-2011, 11:50
Your nose for BS is good. .5 moa with any chrome lined non free floated carbine is mythical. Now 1 moa with match ammo sure maybe.
Pat

I know it's only three shots but this group was shot from a chrome lined 14.5 inch barrel at 100 yards using a RDS and 62gr Privi Partisan.

http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz159/ghostman1961/ef6dbc80.jpg

surf
01-23-2011, 12:35
I know it's only three shots but this group was shot from a chrome lined 14.5 inch barrel at 100 yards using a RDS and 62gr Privi Partisan.

http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz159/ghostman1961/ef6dbc80.jpgI have shot 3 shot groups (Pat probably has also) that small or smaller with AR/M4 rifles and chrome lined barrels. However that is not the point. That is not how to judge MOA out of a rifle. You could get lucky on one particular group and shoot the same hole. Now if you can shoot that group in your picture with with 5 shot groups for 5 groups and that is the average size, then that would be the rifles claim form accuracy. Can you shoot that same group with 5 shot groups over 5 separate 5 shot groups? In other words if you remove the likelihood of occurrences of other variables by using a larger mean average, your stats will be more accurate. I have shot 3 shot groups smaller than that, then shot a couple more in the group that opened it up. Shoot several 3 shot groups. Statistically you will get some really nice and tight 3 shot groups, but not consistently. I would venture a guess that you would get far far more 3 shot groups that were considerably outside of .5MOA than groups that are in that .5MOA range.

ghostman1960
01-23-2011, 13:08
I have shot 3 shot groups (Pat probably has also) that small or smaller with AR/M4 rifles and chrome lined barrels. However that is not the point. That is not how to judge MOA out of a rifle. You could get lucky on one particular group and shoot the same hole. Now if you can shoot that group in your picture with with 5 shot groups for 5 groups and that is the average size, then that would be the rifles claim form accuracy. Can you shoot that same group with 5 shot groups over 5 separate 5 shot groups? In other words if you remove the likelihood of occurrences of other variables by using a larger mean average, your stats will be more accurate. I have shot 3 shot groups smaller than that, then shot a couple more in the group that opened it up. Shoot several 3 shot groups. Statistically you will get some really nice and tight 3 shot groups, but not consistently. I would venture a guess that you would get far far more 3 shot groups that were considerably outside of .5MOA than groups that are in that .5MOA range.

Still three shot groups but repeatable. The one with six shot was two separate groups fired at the same dot.

http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz159/ghostman1961/bb773abb.jpg
http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz159/ghostman1961/4f49c3a7.jpg

surf
01-23-2011, 13:26
I could shoot 20 three round groups and show you three of them.

Also not to call BS, but the only real way to show what a rifle can do is to shoot at least five groups of five rounds per group (on the same paper is best) and actually have someone who is reputable witness it, or have good enough video footage to show the results to convince anyone of anything over the internet. If we want to pump ourselves up, I could shoot groups from 25 or 50 yards and claim anything.

A 14.5" chrome lined, AR/M4 barrel out of a gas operated, semi auto rifle, even with match ammo and especially a red dot sight or irons, much less a magnified optic will not be a .5MOA capable rifle. At least not this day in age.

If you think its possible then you are more confused than I would think. Even the best custom rifle makers in the world have a difficult time getting true .5MOA out of a gas gun match barrels and quality magnified optics. .5MOA consistent and you are starting to get into high quality precision bolt rifle territory, much less battlefield grade chrome lined AR/M4 barreled gas semi-auto rifles.

Braden
01-23-2011, 13:48
...but the only real way to show what a rifle can do is to shoot at least five groups of five rounds per group (on the same paper is best) and actually have someone who is reputable witness it, or have good enough video footage to show the results to convince anyone of anything over the internet.

:upeyes:

OR...these gentlemen could be happy with what they believe their rifles are capable of and not give a hoot about trying to prove themselves to people on an internet forum whom they have no reason to try to impress or prove anything to.

If I was shooting the 3 shot groups that ghostman just posted I'd be perfectly happy with it and not care about whether or not someone on the internet approved of my methods for evaluating accuracy. And I certainly wouldn't videotape it or try to find a "reputable" witness to prove my case. That's just me though.

ghostman1960
01-23-2011, 14:09
See below

ghostman1960
01-23-2011, 14:12
I must really be confused then. Those groups were all on the same target, from the same magazine, shot from my 14.5" BCM middy from a bench, rested on sand bags at 100 yards using a 3moa RDS and 62gr privi partisan ammo. The one dot that has six shots on it is because I ran out of dots to shoot at. Maybe I have early alzhiemers or something. Next time I go shooting I will bring my hi def video camera and a notary public. Okay?

Alaskapopo
01-23-2011, 15:25
:upeyes:

OR...these gentlemen could be happy with what they believe their rifles are capable of and not give a hoot about trying to prove themselves to people on an internet forum whom they have no reason to try to impress or prove anything to.

If I was shooting the 3 shot groups that ghostman just posted I'd be perfectly happy with it and not care about whether or not someone on the internet approved of my methods for evaluating accuracy. And I certainly wouldn't videotape it or try to find a "reputable" witness to prove my case. That's just me though.

Or the real answer is people post BS online about how good their rifles shoot so they can feel better about themselves.
Pat

ghostman1960
01-23-2011, 16:04
When I shoot like crap I post that too.

RVER
01-23-2011, 17:33
:upeyes: People they're just rifles and certainly nothing worth calling strangers BS'rs... I ignorantly stated that my rifle shot what it did based on just 3 shots rather than 30 consecutive shots. My fault, I'm now much better educated, and very grateful to God that I didn't accidently cut one of you off in traffic or take your parking space at the mall... Stay safe.

surf
01-23-2011, 18:44
:upeyes: People they're just rifles and certainly nothing worth calling strangers BS'rs... I ignorantly stated that my rifle shot what it did based on just 3 shots rather than 30 consecutive shots. My fault, I'm now much better educated, and very grateful to God that I didn't accidently cut one of you off in traffic or take your parking space at the mall... Stay safe.No fault of yours. It was very obvious that you were unaware of how an acceptable MOA standard is derived as this is frequently seen on internet forums. You had 2 of us attempt to explain what would be an acceptable manner to determine your rifles accuracy. No harm, no foul. Now if you got all hurt about it or attempted to rebuke it by posting a couple of pictures with some 3 shot groups, well logic would dictate that since these rifles don't exist or have not been seen, then it would seem that the onus of proof lies on the person who is making that type of a claim. It is pretty well understood even by those who make the barrels and the rifles, that a .5MOA 14.5" or 16" chrome lined, AR type barrel, in a semi-auto, direct impingement rifle, such as yours or ghostmans does not exist as judged by acceptable accuracy standards.

Or, would you rather that some of us not attempt to educate people on how the industry comes to MOA type of claims from rifles? OR I guess we could just let them remain ignorant and feel better about themselves because they think that they have off the rack $1K dollar battle rifles that shoot just as good as the $3-4K dollar high end custom precision, semi-auto, gas rifles with custom stainless steel match barrels, shooting match ammunition. When in reality your rifles (my battle rifles included) are not shooting near the standard that is often referred to by rifle manufacturers or industry professionals.

NO ONE said at any time that your rifles aren't top notch because Colt and BCM are about the best one could hope to purchase for the type of rifle that it is. Nor is anyone critiquing or criticizing anyone's shooting abilities either. A weapon could be shot from a vise and the same standard for accurately judging MOA would remain the same.

Also NO ONE said those are not good groups because they are. But they are definitely not the MOA that some of you might wish them to be, but highly acceptable shooting none the less. So I am not sure why anyone gets upset when there is an attempt to clarify what would be a shooting standard accuracy claim within the industry.

Or do you think that people on this site would be happier without members who may actually be considered subject matter experts and / or industry professionals from giving accurate information? I don't think either myself or Alaskapopo were harsh in our responses. We went out of our way in an attempt to explain something which is considered basic and accepted within the industry. I am quite sure that we could definitely be much less agreeable in our responses.

Alaskapopo
01-23-2011, 21:12
:upeyes: People they're just rifles and certainly nothing worth calling strangers BS'rs... I ignorantly stated that my rifle shot what it did based on just 3 shots rather than 30 consecutive shots. My fault, I'm now much better educated, and very grateful to God that I didn't accidently cut one of you off in traffic or take your parking space at the mall... Stay safe.

You are the victim of people getting tired of internet tall tales. For example there is a fellow on the AK forum who was bragging about sub moa performance with his AK. I had to call BS. I asked him to show proof and he agreed to do so and has never done it. That was well over a year ago. I appreciate honesty in people. You were not trying to be dishonest but some people are. The harm in that is some new poster will read what you said and think his gun sucks because its not .5 moa when in reality his gun is just fine.
Pat

Braden
01-24-2011, 09:28
Or the real answer is people post BS online about how good their rifles shoot so they can feel better about themselves.
Pat

While I'm sure that does happen, I figure it isn't really my problem and I generally don't feel obligated to call them out on it.

I'm not really a rifle guy. I have a few and I shoot them well enough to hit what I'm aiming at, but I don't have technical knowledge about them or ballistics or other things of that nature. I say that only to say that I'm sure everything you and Surf said above is probably true, but if these two guys are happy with the accuracy of their rifle then why should they have to prove themselves or their methods to anyone else?

surf
01-24-2011, 19:48
While I'm sure that does happen, I figure it isn't really my problem and I generally don't feel obligated to call them out on it.

I'm not really a rifle guy. I have a few and I shoot them well enough to hit what I'm aiming at, but I don't have technical knowledge about them or ballistics or other things of that nature. I say that only to say that I'm sure everything you and Surf said above is probably true, but if these two guys are happy with the accuracy of their rifle then why should they have to prove themselves or their methods to anyone else?What is one of the main reasons for internet forums such as this one? To learn? To share and pass on knowledge? So if someone has the technical knowledge about the given topic being discussed I would think they would share that information. That is what many come here for. I already said that they shot great groups and had very fine rifles, two of the best in category, but should we not inform anyone of something when they are incorrect on their assumptions or beliefs when it comes to technical knowledge or information? Then what is the purposes of coming to these forums? To buttslap one another and blow smoke up each others asses?

I answer a ton of technical questions here. I have numerous step by step build type video's available. I attempt to share my years of professional knowledge in building, shooting, training etc, to add to these forums. I am not here to be an ass, but I am not afraid to call BS when needed. Sure I have butted heads with a few members, but if they can't handle the truth, that isn't my problem. Not everyone takes things well and you can generally see their true colors when they send childish PM's where they generally resort to swearing and name calling because they have nothing else to offer and they are butt hurt. I give the information in a non confrontational and matter of fact manner. What they do with it or how they take it is up to them.

As for proving any claims. If you tell me that elephants have wings and fly, you had best show me proof for me to believe it. I would more likely believe the flying elephant story over a .5MOA chrome lined BCM or Colt battle rifle.

ghostman1960
01-25-2011, 16:05
What is one of the main reasons for internet forums such as this one? To learn? To share and pass on knowledge? So if someone has the technical knowledge about the given topic being discussed I would think they would share that information. That is what many come here for. I already said that they shot great groups and had very fine rifles, two of the best in category, but should we not inform anyone of something when they are incorrect on their assumptions or beliefs when it comes to technical knowledge or information? Then what is the purposes of coming to these forums? To buttslap one another and blow smoke up each others asses?

I answer a ton of technical questions here. I have numerous step by step build type video's available. I attempt to share my years of professional knowledge in building, shooting, training etc, to add to these forums. I am not here to be an ass, but I am not afraid to call BS when needed. Sure I have butted heads with a few members, but if they can't handle the truth, that isn't my problem. Not everyone takes things well and you can generally see their true colors when they send childish PM's where they generally resort to swearing and name calling because they have nothing else to offer and they are butt hurt. I give the information in a non confrontational and matter of fact manner. What they do with it or how they take it is up to them.

As for proving any claims. If you tell me that elephants have wings and fly, you had best show me proof for me to believe it. I would more likely believe the flying elephant story over a .5MOA chrome lined BCM or Colt battle rifle.

http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz159/ghostman1961/flying_elephant_answer_3_xlarge.jpg