Can't hit crap with my AR at 100 yards, what am I doing wrong? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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poodleshooter1
01-17-2011, 21:32
I zeroed my 16" AR-15 in at 25 meters just fine, however; when I went to shoot at 100 meters I couldn't hit the 6x9 paper. I could easily hit it with an AK.

Not sure what I'm doing wrong. Stock was fully extended. I did not have my nose on the charging handle like I recently read I should have had (I think I had my nose on the charging handle when zeroing a while back).

I'm having trouble getting used to the peep sights. I wear glasses on top of it and it makes it even more akward.

Any tips?

Glock21Owner
01-17-2011, 22:08
Let someone else shoot it and see if they get the same results. How many rounds are you firing? Can you put up a silhouette target like a B27 and see where your rounds are hitting? Are your sights fairly centered or are they cranked over to one side? Lots of variables in play here

MCKNBRD
01-17-2011, 22:09
So many variables...so little keyboard time.

First off, I'd get a consistent cheek weld; if you want to use NTCH, use it. Don't zero one way, then change, then change back. Pick a method, then stick with it.

Secondly, I'd recommend heading to ar15zeroing.com and reading that page; it will take some time, but its well worth it to understand some of the fundamentals about bullet flight path as it relates to the zero. Then, after you understand it, use Santose's 50m zero procedure. Works like a CHAMP.

Next, I'd get a bigger target. Get a piece of butcher block paper, draw a 4" square in the center and color it in with a black marker. Put THAT at 100yds (after you do your 50m IBSZ) and hold the rifle such that the front sight post is centered in the rear aperture (sight alignment) and then move that sight picture to where the black block you drew is 'sitting on the post'...basically, get everything set up to where you barely lose the little white line between the sight post and the block. Fire 5 shots, then go downrange and check your target. Assuming you had a good zero at 50m, you should be pretty much dead center, maybe a little above that, in the black of the target. Thats called a '6 o'clock hold' and its the best way to get new shooters on paper and zeroed quickly.

Your group at 50m (or yards, not a huge difference at that range) should be able to be covered by a quarter; if it looks more like a shotgun pattern than a group, I'd recommend getting some instruction, even if its a buddy that can shoot well. Heck, check the link in my sig line and head to an Appleseed to hammer out the basics. Cheapest quality instruction you'll get in basic rifle marksmanship.

Anyway, hope that helps. For what its worth, the 25m zero throws the 5.56 WAAAAAY too high for my tastes; I really wish I'd known that when I was on active duty.

Byrdman

trlcavscout
01-17-2011, 22:39
I agree, have someone else shoot it. Try different ammo. Its all sight alignment/breathing/trigger control, as long as the gun is right. I have seen guns that were just trouble and you couldnt group with them. All I use is iron sights for the most part for shooting and coyote hunting. I dont put my nose on the charging handle, never have. I extend the stock fully everytime, out the corner of my mouth on the inside edge of the stock just like I do the string on my bow (I am more into archery then guns). Consistancy is the key.

Could be the gun, ammo, or you?


I also agree that the 25 m/yd zero is for the birds. I zero with iron sights at 100yds. You can be 6" off at 100yds with a 25 yd zero depending on ammo/gun etc. And I would use the small aperature for 100yds. I have the Brownells 360 with large/100/200/300 holes it is nice!

Gunnut 45/454
01-18-2011, 00:06
poodleshooter1
OK you can hit at 25 yards- try 50 yards! If you were centered at 25 you should be 1/4"-1/2" high at 50 centered! This will tell you alot as far as sites! Cause you said you get none on paper at 100 say 1. your a very bad shot! 2. you have screwed up sites. 3 a very bad barrel! Sorry I don't sugar coat!:rofl:

duncan
01-18-2011, 00:17
Let someone else shoot it and see if they get the same results. How many rounds are you firing? Can you put up a silhouette target like a B27 and see where your rounds are hitting? Are your sights fairly centered or are they cranked over to one side? Lots of variables in play here

Bring your spotting scope and a friend to get you on the paper

Jeff82
01-18-2011, 00:28
What was group size at 25? What weight ammo? What twist barrel?

Jdog
01-18-2011, 00:55
time for a scope

Foxtrotx1
01-18-2011, 01:08
time for a scope

no, Irons first. Fundamentals.

JASV.17
01-18-2011, 07:44
You're zeroed at 25, don't expect the same zero at 100.

I bet if you take your rifle out and change your POA to the bottom of the paper (about 6" below where you want rounds to go) you'll see a huge improvement.

I had the same experience when I took my rifle out for the first time. My range only has 25 and 100 yard distances. I was shooting targets printed on copy paper. 25, I was good to go. Moved over to 100, nothing. Called my brother, he told me to aim about 6" lower. I did, and I was right on. FYI, this was using the large aperature, 1:7, 55gr.

It will also help you to cover a good deal of the target with paper, so you see where all rounds are going.

K. Foster
01-18-2011, 07:57
Your bullets are going somewhere. Get a piece of butcher paper or a much larger target and find out where you’re hitting.

K. Foster
01-18-2011, 08:02
What twist barrel?

That has no bearing on the OPís issue.

MCKNBRD
01-18-2011, 08:12
time for a scope

Optics don't help breath control, trigger control, nor cheek weld.

Seeing where you miss won't help you shoot better.

Captains1911
01-18-2011, 08:26
For a 25m/300m zero, your POI (point of impact) will be more than 4" above your POA (point of aim) at 100 yards. You said you were shooting at a 6"x9" target, if you were aiming at the center of the target, chances are your shots were flying over the top of the paper. Try a 50yd/200m zero, it is much more practical, your POI will never be more than 2" above or below your POA between 10yds and 250yds.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e106/Captains1911/paper%20punchers/300meterzero01.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e106/Captains1911/paper%20punchers/improvedbattlesightzero01.jpg

fuzzy03cls
01-18-2011, 08:57
I would re zero at 50. Use a 6'oclock hold at 100.

Gunnut 45/454
01-18-2011, 12:40
Captains1911
Aggreed I use the 50 yard zero! With my A2 sites on the 25/300 I'm about 2.5 high at 100 yards! With 5.56mm M193 thats right on for what the AR15 is made for!

DieselNut
01-18-2011, 12:43
Who made your AR? Check the sights to make sure they're not canted. Some people have had issues with this.

BBJones
01-18-2011, 14:06
In summary:

-get a bigger target to find out where you are actually hitting
-be consistent in how you sighted in at 25 yards (do at least 5 shot groups, 10 shots would be even better)
-use a 50/200 zero (if you only have access to a 25 and 100 yard range, try to impact approx. 1-1.25" low at 25 yards and you will be 2-2.5" high at 100yards; ammo dependent)
-find a decent source to teach you fundamentals of shooting and practice those fundamentals
-check to make sure your sights are not canted
-examine charts that demonstrate the trajectory of 5.56 (but note different ammo does different things)

After all this, you will be a much better shooter than many people who have been shooting for years but never took the time to learn anything.

mikekj
01-18-2011, 14:20
That has no bearing on the OPís issue.

Sure it does. If he's shooting thin skinned, 50gr hunting bullets in a 1-7 bbl, the bullet may fly apart from spinning to many rpm's. They may not make it 100 yards.

It has been known to happen.

Captains1911
01-18-2011, 14:31
Sure it does. If he's shooting thin skinned, 50gr hunting bullets in a 1-7 bbl, the bullet may fly apart from spinning to many rpm's. They may not make it 100 yards.

It has been known to happen.

Hogwash

mikekj
01-18-2011, 14:44
Hogwash

Hogwash this.....

Bullet Rotational Speed (RPM)

Bullets leaving a rifled barrel can spin at over 300,000 revolutions per minute (rpm) depending on the muzzle velocity of the bullet and the pitch of the rifling. The rotational speed of the bullet can be calculated by using the formula below. The formula divides the number of inches in a foot (12) by the rate of twist that the barrel has. This number is multiplied by the muzzle velocity (MV) and the number of seconds in a minute (60). For example, a bullet with a muzzle velocity of 3,000 feet per second (910 m/s) leaving a barrel that twists once per foot (1/12") would rotate at 180,000rpm.[5]

* MV x (12/twist rate in inches) x 60 = Bullet RPM

Example using a barrel that has a twist rate of 1 turn in 8" with a muzzle velocity of 3000 ft/s:

* 3000 x (12/8) x 60 = 270,000

Excessive rotational speed can exceed the bullet's designed limits and the resulting centrifugal force can cause the bullet to disintegrate in a radial fashion.:wow::crying:

Captains1911
01-18-2011, 15:06
Hogwash this.....

Bullet Rotational Speed (RPM)

Bullets leaving a rifled barrel can spin at over 300,000 revolutions per minute (rpm) depending on the muzzle velocity of the bullet and the pitch of the rifling. The rotational speed of the bullet can be calculated by using the formula below. The formula divides the number of inches in a foot (12) by the rate of twist that the barrel has. This number is multiplied by the muzzle velocity (MV) and the number of seconds in a minute (60). For example, a bullet with a muzzle velocity of 3,000 feet per second (910 m/s) leaving a barrel that twists once per foot (1/12") would rotate at 180,000rpm.[5]

* MV x (12/twist rate in inches) x 60 = Bullet RPM

Example using a barrel that has a twist rate of 1 turn in 8" with a muzzle velocity of 3000 ft/s:

* 3000 x (12/8) x 60 = 270,000

Excessive rotational speed can exceed the bullet's designed limits and the resulting centrifugal force can cause the bullet to disintegrate in a radial fashion.:wow::crying:

It's a great theory, too bad it's not realistic.

K. Foster
01-18-2011, 15:47
Sure it does. If he's shooting thin skinned, 50gr hunting bullets in a 1-7 bbl, the bullet may fly apart from spinning to many rpm's. They may not make it 100 yards.

It has been known to happen.

I have shot 45 and 50 grain bullets out of 1:7 AR barrels without issue. Not the most accurate choice, but the bullets hit the target as intended. Could it happen as an anomaly? Possibly. Maybe.:dunno:
It is much more likely that the OP is shooting high (as others have said) and a larger target will confirm that.

MisterPX
01-18-2011, 19:54
Bullets do fly apart, but those instances are mostly light bullets with 220 swift type rifles.

Most likely, with a 25M zero, as mentioned, you're impacting about 6 inches high at 100M.

Jeff82
01-18-2011, 21:20
That has no bearing on the OPís issue.

It does if he's shooting 62+gr bullets in a 1-12" twist barrel.

K. Foster
01-18-2011, 21:28
It does if he's shooting 62+gr bullets in a 1-12" twist barrel.

Do you think itís likely that the OPís AR has a 1:12 twist?

MCKNBRD
01-18-2011, 23:09
For what its worth, I seriously doubt that this is a hardware issue. Seems like the OP is a novice shooter that is asking for serious help; some have offered it, some have taken the hardware route ('time for a scope'...'what twist barrel'...etc.). I'm half expecting someone to come along and say its Sarah Palin's fault.

OP: Hook up with someone that is fairly knowledgable about the AR platform and external ballistics, or spend some SERIOUS time on ballistics charts and tables, and do a little learning. Get to an Appleseed; we teach the basics of positional shooting, which provide a good foundation for ANY type of shooting you may want to focus on.

I don't have the first clue where you're from, but if you're anywhere near central NC, PM me and we can see about hooking up to burn some powder.

Byrdman

Gunnut 45/454
01-19-2011, 12:36
MCKNBRD
Your right it probably is not a hardware issue! Thats why I said to shoot at 50 yards next! As it will show if his sites are off! A 25 yard site in doesn't mean you'll be able to hit anything past 25 yards! When I did my intial site in at 50 yards I still had to make adjustments at 100 yards! It is most likely that the shooter is an inexperienced shooter -as most in America are! We are nolonger a nation of shooters! Only 5-10% of Amercians shoot on a regular basis! Rifle shooting is not easy it takes many hours/rounds down range to get proficient!:supergrin:

MCKNBRD
01-19-2011, 12:59
If you zero at 50yds, keep your zero there. Do NOT make adjustments to shoot at 100, unless you're going to just be shooting that range.

There is a reason its called a battlesight zero; its accurate enough for combat usage at normal combat ranges. If you're looking for more precision, get a more precise rear sight and verify your clicks for different ranges, but don't change the front sight post (move the zero) unless you want to be dead-on at only one range.

Byrdman

Oh, and don't even get me STARTED on the loss of our Rifleman heritage...in less than 2 generations, we went from being feared because of our prowess with firearms to being laughed at because we're scared to death of them....

JimBianchi
01-19-2011, 16:40
While it is most likely a zeroing problem, it could be a bad barrel or crown.

I have seen excellent shooters pull the hair out on a new rifle, until they take a second to look at the crown and go "OH!"

Gunnut 45/454
01-19-2011, 19:12
JimBianchi
Agreed , but wouldn't that show at 25 yards?

jtull7
01-19-2011, 19:15
Trade it for an iron-sights lever action. Man up!

poodleshooter1
01-19-2011, 20:47
poodleshooter1
OK you can hit at 25 yards- try 50 yards! If you were centered at 25 you should be 1/4"-1/2" high at 50 centered! This will tell you alot as far as sites! Cause you said you get none on paper at 100 say 1. your a very bad shot! 2. you have screwed up sites. 3 a very bad barrel! Sorry I don't sugar coat!:rofl:

Apparently you missed the part about me having no trouble hitting at 100 yards with an AK...

:upeyes:

poodleshooter1
01-19-2011, 20:50
MCKNBRD
Your right it probably is not a hardware issue! Thats why I said to shoot at 50 yards next! As it will show if his sites are off! A 25 yard site in doesn't mean you'll be able to hit anything past 25 yards! When I did my intial site in at 50 yards I still had to make adjustments at 100 yards! It is most likely that the shooter is an inexperienced shooter -as most in America are! We are nolonger a nation of shooters! Only 5-10% of Amercians shoot on a regular basis! Rifle shooting is not easy it takes many hours/rounds down range to get proficient!:supergrin:

AGAIN, you haven't taken the time to read my post or selectively leave out the part about me being able to hit the target, or even a pop can with an AK and iron sights all day.

poodleshooter1
01-19-2011, 20:56
For a 25m/300m zero, your POI (point of impact) will be more than 4" above your POA (point of aim) at 100 yards. You said you were shooting at a 6"x9" target, if you were aiming at the center of the target, chances are your shots were flying over the top of the paper. Try a 50yd/200m zero, it is much more practical, your POI will never be more than 2" above or below your POA between 10yds and 250yds.



Thank you VERY MUCH! This was valuable information. I suspected I was shooting over the target, as my rounds weren't even hitting the ground in front of the target. I would like to leave my zero the same, and will change my POA accordingly.

I guess this zero was designed to hit a man sized target SOMEWHERE in the torso up to 300 yards.

Usagi
01-19-2011, 22:59
It's a great theory, too bad it's not realistic.
Not only is it realistic, the fact that lighter grain bullets can be spun apart by 1:7 twist barrels is well documented (http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/perf_twists.html), and repeatable. It is fact.

That's called the scientific method. A "THEORY" is something that is repeatable fact (ie - salt will dissolve in pure water).

For clarification, not all bullets under 55 grains will be spun apart by 1:7 barrels. But, almost all bullets documented to have been spun apart out of a 1:7 barrel have been lighter than 55 grains.

ETA: To the OP. If you could not hit at 100 with a 25 yard zero, it is likely that the bullet was striking 4"-7" high. Charts say the bullet would strike a little over 4" high. Most factory bullets out of an AR15 are 2-4 MOA in accuracy. If we use the average - 3MOA - and add to 4" high, that's how I arrived at 7" (which I have observed personally on several occasions).

As a remedy, I would suggest Googling "RIBZ" and use that method to zero the rifle. With a couple of clicks adjustment, you can be on the mark at 25 yards, and at 100 yards.

Minnow
01-20-2011, 03:15
Lets start with the basics then work from there.
If you think you are on the target board or atleast close, then might I suggest buying a single sillouette target and post it backwards. This will give you a nice big white background about the size of the entire target board to help you locate your shots. If you suspect your hitting very high, post a 4" stick on target at the bottom of the white background. I would first also post a 4" target on the middle of the white background and shoot for it first in case you are actually hitting low. You might not be off as far as you think. Once you know where your hitting or atleast how high if you are infact hitting high, you can begin making adjustments and walk your shots in, assuming there is a level of consistency.

Someone already mentioned the 50yd sight in or the "improved battle sight zero method". I'd use that if you have a 50yd range available. If you are using a carry handle with rear sight here is a link to get you started in the right direction.
http://grburnett.us/guns/ImprovedBattlesightZero.pdf

Gunnut 45/454
01-20-2011, 14:26
poodleshooter1
Believe me I didn't miss that fact about the AK! But we're talk two totally different weapons! It's like saying that I'm an expert with a Revolver so I should be with a Semiauto pistol! It ain't happening! Different stocks and sites! If you can hit the target at 25 yard -try 50 yards and see if your off? Like I said when I did my 50 yard site in I had to adjust them when I went to 100 yards! I agree with the 25 yard zero your were probably shooting over the target at 100 yards as you'd be about 4-5" high! Try a six o'clock hold at 100 yards ie at the bottom of that 6X9" paper and you should hit it as long as your right to left is centered! P.S There are old training vids on Youtube search M16 training/markmenship !:supergrin:

Novocaine
01-20-2011, 15:57
Zero it so that the POI is an inch or so low at 25, see what happens.

BBJones
01-20-2011, 16:13
Not only is it realistic, the fact that lighter grain bullets can be spun apart by 1:7 twist barrels is well documented (http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/perf_twists.html), and repeatable. It is fact.

That's called the scientific method. A "THEORY" is something that is repeatable fact (ie - salt will dissolve in pure water).



That link did not show any evidence. It cited the same theory you cited. I am not doubting some bullets lighter than 55 grains could fly apart in a 1:7, but your "well documented" source documented nothing.

mikekj
01-20-2011, 20:09
That link did not show any evidence. It cited the same theory you cited. I am not doubting some bullets lighter than 55 grains could fly apart in a 1:7, but your "well documented" source documented nothing.

Dude, Crack a book once in a while.

I went back to check, and lo and behold, right there in the Speer loading book, it says not to use their light varment bullets in a 1-7 twist. They can and do come apart.

So, I then went to the Hornady loading book. Guess what? Same thing. Different words.

I did this just to back up my own personal experience. I have been watching bullet traces in a spotting scope for many, many years. I have seen bullet traces that just disappeared down range.

Now, you guys can take your "theory" and tell it to somebody else.

BBJones
01-20-2011, 21:14
Dude, Crack a book once in a while.

I went back to check, and lo and behold, right there in the Speer loading book, it says not to use their light varment bullets in a 1-7 twist. They can and do come apart.

So, I then went to the Hornady loading book. Guess what? Same thing. Different words.

I did this just to back up my own personal experience. I have been watching bullet traces in a spotting scope for many, many years. I have seen bullet traces that just disappeared down range.

Now, you guys can take your "theory" and tell it to somebody else.

thanks for chuckle. I wrote a 3 sentence reply and you didn't even comprehend that I was not disagreeing with you about the underlying point. My only point was your "well documented" evidence to back up your assertion was not evidence.

We are way off the OP's topic and you seem to be getting irritated, so no point in pursuing this anymore.

cdog533
01-20-2011, 22:19
While this bickering is interesting, back to the OP:

Use a large target, say a sheet of posterboard (24" x 36") with a dot in the middle. Leaving the sites where they are, try a 50-yard 5-shot string and see where it prints. I'm guessing it's high.

Sight it at 50 yards, then move the posterboard back to 100 yards see where your shots are.

The key is using a big enough target to print your shots. If you are using a small target, as you are, you can't find your group to dial it toward the middle....

I think the odds of it being a barrel crown or twist issue are small.

Alaskapopo
01-20-2011, 23:01
no, Irons first. Fundamentals.

Not necessarily. While its good to know how to shoot irons its not a must. What is a must is a redundant sighting system to back up your primary. If your back up is irons fine. But you could just as easily have a back up red dot sight in an off set mount. Leanring the fundamentals of marksmanship does not mean you have to learn on iron sights. Some people with vision problems can't. To the OP your 100 shots are likely to be 4 to 6 inches high with a 25 yard zero. Re zero at 50 or 100 yards and try it again.

Pat

Alaskapopo
01-20-2011, 23:06
Optics don't help breath control, trigger control, nor cheek weld.

Seeing where you miss won't help you shoot better.

Actually yes it can. When I first started shooting I had a bad flinch that I did not know was there until I tried a friends red dot sighted pistol. I could see the dot dip and that allowed me to recognize I had a flinch and start working to correct it. So yes seeing where you miss will help.
Pat

PrO...
01-21-2011, 13:41
Actually yes it can. When I first started shooting I had a bad flinch that I did not know was there until I tried a friends red dot sighted pistol. I could see the dot dip and that allowed me to recognize I had a flinch and start working to correct it. So yes seeing where you miss will help.
Pat

The red dot helped you correct your issues but I think he meant if you see you are hitting low to the right then aiming high yo the left is not helping your problem but just compensating for it. There are actions to take to become a better shooter and not just hit the middle of the paper. That's how I interpreted it anyway. :dunno:

gemeinschaft
01-21-2011, 13:49
.... Then, after you understand it, use Santose's 50m zero procedure. Works like a CHAMP.
.....
Byrdman

+1 on the 50m zero. I always go with a 50m zero on my rifles. When I was working overseas as a contractor, I found that a 50m zero allowed me to engage from 0-300m with better results.

IMHO, 0-300m is the most important range to master without making any adjustments to your sights.