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dumbyhotshot
01-18-2011, 16:57
Hello all,

I'm working up a load with a G20 using a stock length Lone Wolf barrel using Double Tap brass and their WFNGC 200 gr. bullet and WLP with IMR 800x.

Going off of McNett's suggested 1.26 COAL I started loading at 10% below max for IMR's listed max for this powder.

The problem I'm having is getting these bullets to chamber in my Lone Wolf barrel. They just will not drop in all the way. I've tried seating a bit deeper (down to 1.22 in.) and messed around with much more crimp but no joy. I can get them to chamber in my stock glock barrel just fine, but I don't want to use this barrel as I'm looking for more chamber support.

Any suggestions? I can provide pictures of whatever if needed.

Also, I have successfully chambered and fired some XTC's just fine so far.

ETA- Just got off the phone with DT and they said seat deeper. 1.245 to 1.250. Off to try it.

hypnagogue
01-18-2011, 19:45
Well, since I have that LWD 20 barrel and also have some factory DoubleTap loaded 200 WFNGC ammo available to check:

The round measures at 1.240 and does seat in my LWD 20 barrel.

Hogpauls
01-18-2011, 20:03
Do you seat and crimp in the same operation? What die are you using to crimp with?

I have the same LWD barrel and had to bring it down to 1.250" to get the rounds to chamber 100% of the time. Any longer and they get hung up. Also I crimp as seperate step using the Lee Factory Crimp Die which not only crimps the bullet but resizes the round. Pushing that big 200gr WFNGC into the brass kinda bulges it and the LFCD brings it back down to spec.

Kegs
01-18-2011, 20:13
The double tap ammo I measured COAL for it was 1.24" I suspect that is what they (mostly) load to on the 200gr. stuff.

Not sure it will help - but it should.

dumbyhotshot
01-18-2011, 22:10
I seat and crimp in two steps using dillon dies on a 550 b. May have to check out the lfcd heard all good about it. I've gone as deep as 1.22 with it still being a pita to chamber. The glock barrels is loose enough to seat at 1.25 in. A guy at double tap said don't go below 1.242.

Thanks for the info on the factory dt ammo. My question is do the factory rounds chamber easily allowing you to spin the case or are they really tight. I'm a bit concerned about jamming these rounds into the barrel, but also about seating these huge slugs so deep?

Meathead9
01-18-2011, 22:19
Maybe the chamber is out of spec? Do any other loads have trouble in that barrel? I have loaded over 100 of those bullets, from 1.25 to 1.26, and they all chamber perfectly. I have used a Lee FCD, and a standard Taper Crimp die, and so far no issues with either die.

dumbyhotshot
01-18-2011, 22:23
I have loaded some 200 gr. xtp's at 1.26 with good results.

How would I check if the chamber is in spec?

Eta- I should maybe check my calipers as well.

hypnagogue
01-18-2011, 23:11
My question is do the factory rounds chamber easily allowing you to spin the case or are they really tight.

The factory ammo does not spin in the chamber. It "clicks" in when chambering and holds in place.

dumbyhotshot
01-19-2011, 00:20
The factory ammo does not spin in the chamber. It "clicks" in when chambering and holds in place.

Thanks hypnogogue, thats what I was looking for. Mine don't click, unless I drop them into my glock barrel. I must have some wacky bullets or a barrel on the tight side.

MakeMineA10mm
01-19-2011, 07:12
Sounds to me like you have a particularly abrupt leade. At the front of the chamber, there is a step, which is what the front edge of the case bumps against to headspace. In front of that step is a short smooth area, which is called the throat. This is the full-diameter area which allows full-diameter bullets to seat ahead of the shoulder. In front of the throat is the leade, which is the tapered beginning of the rifling. Each land of the rifling is supposed to start off as a ramp for a very short distance, until it gets to full depth. Sounds like either the ramp on your leade is starting too far back into the throat area, or the ramp (angle) of the leade itself is very steep or abrupt.

I have a Walther P88 with factory barrel which is like this. It is the most accurate handgun I own, but it is also very frustrating because I can only load it with ammo with a very short-ogive bullet...

My suggestion is to call LW and ask them if you can send it back either for a new barrel or to have them re-ream the throat/leade area to make it correct to-spec. Your only other choice is to try shooting it and see if it's particularly accurate, like my Walther. If so, you have a choice to make. You can either have very good accuracy or very high performance. You won't get both, because by seating the bullets deeper, you'll never be able to run to the pure max loads that many here write about. OTOH, if you can get a 200gr XTP to 1125fps vs. 1175fps but with stellar accuracy; I don't think I'd complain...

hypnagogue
01-19-2011, 07:55
Sounds to me like you have a particularly abrupt leade.

Possibly. When dealing with cast lead, the more likely explanation is over-diameter bullets. Check the bullets first. They should be .400-.401. Give LWD the benefit of the doubt until the obvious causes are eliminated.

dumbyhotshot
01-19-2011, 10:44
Bullet diameter is good. I've been seating them to 1.24 like the factory ammo and will have to see what kind of velocity I can get seated deeper. I'm hoping for 1200 fps.

I wouldn't mind increased accuracy over very hot loads, but I still want some heat. I'm still working up slowly with the lead bullets after bumping my charge back down from seating deeper.

Would the 200 gr. Xtp bullet be considered having a short ogive. They are working well at 1.26.

MakeMineA10mm
01-19-2011, 11:33
Depends on your seating depth. The XTP has a straight-side wall and then a quick radius to a truncated cone ogive. If you seat the bullet as most do, with just a bit of the straight wall sticking out of the case, then yes, they have a more-tapered ogive.

Basically, as compared to your WFN, the XTP rounds the corner of that radius and then the ogive is a straight line to the radius that rolls around to the meplat (flat point of the nose). This straight ogive of a truncated cone means it will not interfere with just about any leade angle, as long as it is not seated out farther than normally intended.

As opposed to that straight-taper on the Truncated Cone XTP, the WFN has a gentle, widened arc that runs from the straight side-wall of the bullet all the way around to an abrupt corner where the ogive meets the meplat. This means the WFN style bullet is sticking-out farther into the area where the leade is, and has the potential to result in interference between the leade and the ogive. Seating deeper moves the ogive backwards, allowing the cartridge to go deeper into the chamber before this interference occurs.

"To be fair" to LWD (a company I really like, btw), I'd say that DoubleTap as well as other handloaders here have found the same "problem." This means that most-likely LWD has set up the specs of their chamber and leade to work with the most-common (and SAAMI spec) bullets, which are truncated cone. So, my point really was that if you want to push your 200gr WFNs by seating them out all the way to the point they work through the mag/feed cycle (~1.260"), then with that bullet, you'll have to get the leade modified. While many times it's a bullet issue, it was pretty clear from the info already here that it's probably the leade that's preventing seating these out to the max OAL.

hypnagogue
01-19-2011, 15:03
So, my point really was that if you want to push your 200gr WFNs by seating them out all the way to the point they work through the mag/feed cycle (~1.260"), then with that bullet, you'll have to get the leade modified.

I agree with this assessment. I think 1.260 is too long for that bullet, and that 1.240 is probably max OAL. Here's a side point -- how much longer is the XTP vs the WFNGC? (I don't have a WFNGC pulled or I would answer my own question.) I think the shape of the bullet might account for more than 0.02 inches in length, and thus make the case capacity with the WFNGC higher than the XTP, even with the shorter OAL.

I've never had a problem with FTF with the 1.240 WFNGC, but I have with the 1.260 XTP. Just my experience.

dumbyhotshot
01-19-2011, 21:43
I agree with this assessment. I think 1.260 is too long for that bullet, and that 1.240 is probably max OAL. Here's a side point -- how much longer is the XTP vs the WFNGC? (I don't have a WFNGC pulled or I would answer my own question.) I think the shape of the bullet might account for more than 0.02 inches in length, and thus make the case capacity with the WFNGC higher than the XTP, even with the shorter OAL.

I've never had a problem with FTF with the 1.240 WFNGC, but I have with the 1.260 XTP. Just my experience.

Thanks for the help fellas.

I'm gonna try both the wfngc at 1.24 and xtp at 1.26 for a bit to see how they function. If I can't get the wfngc to function at this oak then I'll seat deeper and start over with a lighter powder charge until they work. My plan was a woods round at 1200 fps but I won't compromise safety to get there and I can always use these as plinkers.

MakeMineA10mm
01-20-2011, 08:06
Thanks for the help fellas.

I'm gonna try both the wfngc at 1.24 and xtp at 1.26 for a bit to see how they function. If I can't get the wfngc to function at this oak then I'll seat deeper and start over with a lighter powder charge until they work. My plan was a woods round at 1200 fps but I won't compromise safety to get there and I can always use these as plinkers.

Very, very wise. You already mentioned it, so I knew I didn't have to, but you understood shortening OAL meant deeper seating, which almost always increases internal pressures.

You are the kind of experienced reloader I like to see. Go at it methodically and carefully.

Taterhead
01-20-2011, 11:46
Just a thought... but if you still have the stock barrel, the DT 200 gr wfngc functions great in my setup at 1.26". I have not been able to get to 1200 fps with 800x, but I do average 1200 fps with a charge of A9. No pressure or cycling issues whatsoever.

dumbyhotshot
01-21-2011, 00:12
Just a thought... but if you still have the stock barrel, the DT 200 gr wfngc functions great in my setup at 1.26". I have not been able to get to 1200 fps with 800x, but I do average 1200 fps with a charge of A9. No pressure or cycling issues whatsoever.

I do have the stock barrel still but I think I may get there seating at 1.24. I'm working back up from there and I'm getting close with no discernible to me excess pressure signs. Granted I'm skeptical about my ability to determine it based on primer's, ejector, or extractor marks. But, so far none. I'm in the mid 1100's and thinking about calling it good here even though I can't tell the difference in cases between my hottest and 10% below book max. Actually, the one difference is the primer is smeared a bit more around the striker indentation.

One thing that bugs me about all this is why, if max average SAAMI pressure is 37,500psi, why do the books stop so short with 800x and 200 gr. bullets? My comfort level at being above max is tentative, but so many here have gone beyond where I'm going to stop that I fell good about getting more comfortable with these loads.

ETA- Taterhead, Just saw your location and by your name you may live relatively close to where I'm at in SE ID. Just moved here in April and like this high desert stuff.

hypnagogue
01-21-2011, 10:03
if max average SAAMI pressure is 37,500psi, why do the books stop so short with 800x


There are many reasons:
1) With a slow powder you can run out of barrel before the target pressure is reached,
2) You can run out of case capacity before a target pressure is reached
3) The powder may become unpredictable at or near the target pressure or temperature (large SD)

Taterhead
01-21-2011, 11:06
ETA- Taterhead, Just saw your location and by your name you may live relatively close to where I'm at in SE ID. Just moved here in April and like this high desert stuff.

Welcome to Idaho. I grew up in your part of the state. A lot of good memories.

dumbyhotshot
01-21-2011, 19:44
Well I got a load that reaches 1200 fps at an oal of 1.24, but they don't feed reliably. Guess I'm seating deeper and dropping my charge further. These bullets in conjunction with my barrel are a pita.

Eta- I can tell they are close to feeding reliably. The slide would be out of battery just barely so I'm getting close to getting them to work. I'm gonna lose some velocity I think by seating them as deep as I need to. I received an email from mcnett that at 1.245 they will work reliably so it must be my barrel that is too tight.

12dmax
01-22-2011, 08:17
you are robbing peter to pay paul. I had the LWD and had no problems with those bullets at 1.255 , send it back.

Meathead9
01-22-2011, 08:41
If it won't feed properly at 1.24, you should send it back. I wouldn't waste the time or components to load them any shorter. Maybe even send them a few of your 200gr WFNGC loads with the barrel, so they can tailor the chamber to feed that round.

Also, maybe I missed it, but what recoil spring are you using? I had feeding issues with the 200gr WFNGC using the factory recoil spring. I use a 24# Wolff, but a 22# should work fine for that load.

dumbyhotshot
01-22-2011, 10:24
If it won't feed properly at 1.24, you should send it back. I wouldn't waste the time or components to load them any shorter. Maybe even send them a few of your 200gr WFNGC loads with the barrel, so they can tailor the chamber to feed that round.

Also, maybe I missed it, but what recoil spring are you using? I had feeding issues with the 200gr WFNGC using the factory recoil spring. I use a 24# Wolff, but a 22# should work fine for that load.

I'm using a 22# recoil spring.

dumbyhotshot
01-22-2011, 11:57
you are robbing peter to pay paul. I had the LWD and had no problems with those bullets at 1.255 , send it back.

I'm considering this and have tried to get in touch with Lone Wolf about this.

I have a spread of these loaded at 1.22 just to see if they work at all, won't go any deeper. This will at least give me more info to tell Lone Wolf when I get in touch with them.

12dmax
01-22-2011, 15:42
I have a spread of these loaded at 1.22 just to see if they work at all, won't go any deeper. This will at least give me more info to tell Lone Wolf when I get in touch with them.

Good thinking, I had to deal with them some and they were very good to work with!

dumbyhotshot
01-22-2011, 20:03
Good thinking, I had to deal with them some and they were very good to work with!

Tried the loads at 1.22 and still had one round not allow the gun to go completely into battery. The rest worked well, but that was only 10 rounds total with the wfcgc bullets so I'm done with these bullets for now until I talk to lone wolf about this.
I did get a 2 inch at 25 yards group with the Hornady 200 gr xtp's with a pretty good velocity.

_The_Shadow
01-23-2011, 10:46
Two things to look at one was length which you adjusted, the other is chamber fit.
Did you use a cartridge gauge or the barrel for these to see if they drop in freely?

Good luck!

dumbyhotshot
01-23-2011, 11:25
Two things to look at one was length which you adjusted, the other is chamber fit.
Did you use a cartridge gauge or the barrel for these to see if they drop in freely?

Good luck!
I have been using my chamber to test these rounds. At 1.22 oal the cartridge will seat all the way with some thumb force and they will push out easily with a pencil. The fitment is not adaquet for reliably feeding from a magazine.

lunker
01-24-2011, 06:05
Here's another vote for the Lee Factory crimp die. It resolved my LW barrel feeding issues when the standard Dillon crimp die had problems.

nickE10mm
01-24-2011, 08:20
dumbyhotshot, I have also always wondered about why IMR-800x stops so short of what speeds others seemingly ROUTINELY load up above of... I don't think that a 200gr XTP at 1050 should be a max load if you can get 1250-1350 out of it with new cases and careful workups in YOUR particular barrel. I suspect that I'll eventually go down that road of hand-weighing charges and loading above max ... but I'm taking it step by step since I'm relatively new to reloading. I FEEL confident in working up loads like that, however, I don't have a REASON to until this coming deer season, so I figure I'll just learn and practice and learn some more for the next several months and then maybe take the next step. I also want to get a chrony before I do any nuclear workups.

dumbyhotshot
01-24-2011, 12:42
Just got off the phone with lone wolf. They will take a look at chamber and if it's out of spec will fix. If in spec they will do a custom chamber using my dumby rounds for $25.

dumbyhotshot
01-24-2011, 12:50
NickE10,
A chrony definitely let's you have more of a feel for where you at if your going above published load data. Definitely has made me more comfortable. With my chamber I'm comfortable getting 1200+ fps with the xtp's with room for more. However, I'm testing these at 4000 ft around 32degrees so I'm testing these in some warmer temps this spring before I load a bunch. It's my understanding that 800x can be temp sensitive.

nickE10mm
01-24-2011, 13:06
NickE10,
A chrony definitely let's you have more of a feel for where you at if your going above published load data. Definitely has made me more comfortable. With my chamber I'm comfortable getting 1200+ fps with the xtp's with room for more. However, I'm testing these at 4000 ft around 32degrees so I'm testing these in some warmer temps this spring before I load a bunch. It's my understanding that 800x can be temp sensitive.

I'll keep an eye out for the temperature issue and I think thats a good idea not to load too many if you'll be changing climates. :)

JTknives
01-31-2011, 07:47
All i shoot out of my G20 is 200gr WFN and i load to 1.26. the reason DT loads to 1.24 is to allow for ejecting unfired rounds. If loaded to longer then 1.24 the nose of a WFN will hit the barrel when trying to eject it. Also you MUST NOT use a roll crimp, not even a little bit. it creates a tiny bulge behind the mouth and this will prevent cases from dropping in the chamber. Get you a lee factory crimp die and you will be good to go. just crimp enough to remove the flare and make the case mouth straight. I assumed that the role crimp would work if i set it to just crimp a little to remove the flare, well i was wrong and had 100 rounds that would not chamber, i had to go back over them with the lee factory crimp and everything was perfect. Try this, take a loaded round and drop it in the chamber. then push it in with your thumb if you can get it to go in a bit and it gets stuck then its a crimp problem. use something to pop the round back out, i used a pocket knife under the rim. now look at the bullet nose to see if you have any sign of engagement of the rifleing or throat. some times you will see a tiny rub spot that's a bit shiny, dont worry about that. But like i said i bet its your crimp.

dumbyhotshot
01-31-2011, 19:56
All i shoot out of my G20 is 200gr WFN and i load to 1.26. the reason DT loads to 1.24 is to allow for ejecting unfired rounds. If loaded to longer then 1.24 the nose of a WFN will hit the barrel when trying to eject it. Also you MUST NOT use a roll crimp, not even a little bit. it creates a tiny bulge behind the mouth and this will prevent cases from dropping in the chamber. Get you a lee factory crimp die and you will be good to go. just crimp enough to remove the flare and make the case mouth straight. I assumed that the role crimp would work if i set it to just crimp a little to remove the flare, well i was wrong and had 100 rounds that would not chamber, i had to go back over them with the lee factory crimp and everything was perfect. Try this, take a loaded round and drop it in the chamber. then push it in with your thumb if you can get it to go in a bit and it gets stuck then its a crimp problem. use something to pop the round back out, i used a pocket knife under the rim. now look at the bullet nose to see if you have any sign of engagement of the rifleing or throat. some times you will see a tiny rub spot that's a bit shiny, dont worry about that. But like i said i bet its your crimp.

I'm using a taper crimp and I've tried across the spectrum of none, very little, to quite a bit, and absurd ammounts and still no go.

Barrel is currently at Lone Wolf. I did talk to one of the armorers. He mentioned that they have had problems with this bullet in the past, meaning bullets out of spec. We shall see.

MakeMineA10mm
02-02-2011, 00:00
There are many reasons:
1) With a slow powder you can run out of barrel before the target pressure is reached,
2) You can run out of case capacity before a target pressure is reached
3) The powder may become unpredictable at or near the target pressure or temperature (large SD)

dumbyhotshot, I have also always wondered about why IMR-800x stops so short of what speeds others seemingly ROUTINELY load up above of... I don't think that a 200gr XTP at 1050 should be a max load if you can get 1250-1350 out of it with new cases and careful workups in YOUR particular barrel. I suspect that I'll eventually go down that road of hand-weighing charges and loading above max ... but I'm taking it step by step since I'm relatively new to reloading. I FEEL confident in working up loads like that, however, I don't have a REASON to until this coming deer season, so I figure I'll just learn and practice and learn some more for the next several months and then maybe take the next step. I also want to get a chrony before I do any nuclear workups.

Probably the biggest reason IMR is conservative on their load data with that powder and the 10mm is because of the powder's geometry interfering with smooth metering.

800X is a shotgun powder and as such was designed to flow through loading bushings like you'd find on a shotshell reloading press, and most-importantly was designed in geometry to fill a certain percentage capacity of a shotshell. These relatively smooth-operating fixed-volumetric-measuring systems (usually with bushings) do not have the powder-flow issues with a large-granuled powder like 800X as do the rotating drum powder measures we handloaders typically use. More importantly, shotshells are very sensitive to load balance wherein the internal volume of the shell is another factor which must be addressed in assembling good loads. 800X was designed so that in typical loadings with typical shot-charges, it would fill a certain percentage of the case to interact with wad dimensions and seating pressure to provide a good crimp to the shell. Also, in the shotgun application, pressures are very low so some minor variation which inevitably happens, is not a huge matter.

This last factor, combined with it's poor metering characteristics is where the rub comes. The 10mm has a rather low-volume case capacity while working at high pressures, so load variation is a critical problem. To address this concern, they artificially lowered the max pressure they recommend 800X be loaded to in the 10mm...

Those of us who take the time to hand-weigh (or individually-weigh, if one uses those nice new auto-dispensing powder measures), 800X can be raised up a bit, and safely too.

dumbyhotshot
02-04-2011, 18:00
Thought I would give an update. An armorer at Lone Wolf looked at my barrel and my dummy rounds and he told me that the projectiles looked like they were to large in diameter. He said that DT has had issues in the past with this bullet profile not working well in their barrels,even from factory ammo and also reloads. He was able to do something minimal to the chamber that allowed my dummy rounds to fit which were seated at 1.25. I'm not exactly sure what he did, maybe some polishing, but he said he didn't want to sacrifice the tight chamber for reliable feeding with just this round and I agreed with him. In comparing my barrel to some others, it sounded like mine was within spec. but a bit on the tight side.

I should have the barrel back soon and can test on my own. Overall, he was very helpful and nice even if I'm not entirely sure what he did.

MakeMineA10mm
02-05-2011, 11:40
Just speculation, but it sounds like he opened up the leade ever so slightly to fit the ogive of that bullet. This can be done by simply changing the profile from a straight edge to a curved one, so that a bullet with a larger ogive will fit, but the rifling still starts back at near the end of the chamber, so other profiles will be engaged early in their travel. Sounds like you got the best of both worlds! Did they charge you anything, or was it a free upgrade?

dumbyhotshot
02-05-2011, 21:53
No charge. Another reason I was impressed. I mentioned modifying the lead, but not sure if that's what he did. I should have the barrel and 1000 starline cases next week so I can resume playing around.